Hello,

I've been working out for about 10 weeks now and gradually changing my ab workout, but it's getting to the point were I just think I'm doing too much and could maybe get better results. I have a nice layer of fat covering them! And am in the process of losing that but I want to be doing the best I can so that when I do lose it they look good.

This is my ab routine 3x a week before the rest of my weights session

3x12 - this is a sort of pulse-up++ after I do the pulse-up I then lower my legs (keeping them straight) to a couple of inches off the floor, then raise them (keeping them straight - although by the third set this is v. difficult) for the next pulse-up and repeat.

3x12 - Russian twist holding two 3kg dumbells

3x12 - Crunch - lying on a mat with my knees bent and my hands behind my head then lift them over my head (holding 8kg dumbell) in an arc towards my legs and crunch

3x12 - same as above but oblique crunch for each side

Is this too much? I do this in a gym so have access to pretty much every ab type machine, plus loads of cable machines etc. Would appreciate any suggestions.

Cheers :tu:

ben1880

My one suggestion would be to do ab work after your weight session. You want to be fresh for your big lifts.

Really? That's probably a good idea. But I do them first as I hate them, and want to get them out of the way! I'll try doing them after the workout then.

Switch it up...

Do one week of high rep/medium weights and the next go for lower reps and more weight.

Tons of excessive ab work can be detrimental to the CNS.

Try these:-

Weighted cable ab crunch (standing):- go to lat pulldown machine.Set feet back a couple of feet so you sort of balancing on the bar which is just above your forehead and your arms are bent to about 90 degrees.
Now,using your abs, "curl' the weight down so that you are bent right over and come up again. You'll have to experiment to finf a weight that allows youn tom do this. Aim for 5 reps.

Weighted Captains Chairs(knee up with elbows for support).
Do these "bent-knee" and use ankle weights. You can get ankle weights that weigh up to 5lbs apiece. Strap on 2 or more per ankle if that's what it takes.

Seated cable crunch on a machine.
Same as standing except you are sitting.Aim for 5 reps with weight.

Weighted crunches on a Ball. Self explanatory. Go for enough weight that gives you 5 reps.

Static-hold Reverse Crunch...do a a reverse crunch but hold it in position until you start to fail.

Weighted Bicycle Crunch.....strap on the ankle weights, hold a weighted ball behind your head. Use enough weight for low reps.

Don't do this routine ad nauseum.

The next week go for much lower weight and higher reps.

Try mixing up the routine every now and then.

Write down on a small pieces of paper all the ex's.

Put them in a hat,mix them up and whichever one you pull out successively , do it.

If you are going weighted, give your self a break between sets.

But if you are going unweighted, try doing the whole thing "circuit style"
every now and then with no breaks between ex's.

I always do my ab work on a separate day than lifting and I only work abs twice a week.

Really? That's probably a good idea. But I do them first as I hate them, and want to get them out of the way!

How about not doing them at all?

"How about not doing them at all?"

Ok zenpharaohs, I'm open to ideas but why not?

Thanks for all that HevyMetal :tu:

Can I just ask why you do your abs on days you're not lifting? I did think about doing them on my cardio days, but as I can feel them being worked for example when doing bent over one arm rows I thought that they wouldn't get a proper rest if I did them on my 'off' days.

I guess to go back to Zen's pithy post, I'd add the question: "what is your goal with all this ab work?".

Because if it is to see them, thousands of crunches aren't your answer. They are nearly worthless for that.

Mannishboy - "I guess to go back to Zen's pithy post, I'd add the question: "what is your goal with all this ab work?".

Because if it is to see them, thousands of crunches aren't your answer. They are nearly worthless for that."

I'm aware that doing crunches won't get rid of the fat covering them. My goal is to increase the size of them so that when I finally get my body fat% down low enough so that the are visible they will look better.

I'm aware that doing crunches won't get rid of the fat covering them. My goal is to increase the size of them so that when I finally get my body fat% down low enough so that the are visible they will look better.


Heavy squats, deadlifts, pullups, overhead pressing.

I'm aware that doing crunches won't get rid of the fat covering them. My goal is to increase the size of them so that when I finally get my body fat% down low enough so that the are visible they will look better.

Well if ab hypertrophy is your goal then you have to do some work. I don't really have a lot of advice on cosmetic goals though. The RA is one muscle that does torso flexion. So do lots of torso flexion at moderate resistance.

Heavy squats, deadlifts, pullups, overhead pressing.

Well that gets you strong abs. And, if he gets the fat off, then they will probably look fine. But if he really wants distended looking hypertrophic abs, then I think he wants some direct ab work.

Having seen some guys with big abs who were also cut (isn't that one of those steroid side effects everyone used to mention?), it's not a look that I would shoot for.

Having seen some guys with big abs who were also cut (isn't that one of those steroid side effects everyone used to mention?), it's not a look that I would shoot for.

I always thought this was a byproduct of HGH causing the organs to swell. :confused:

As far as training for strength goes, I think some ab work still has it's place. The guys at Westside advocate heavy ab training twice a week and they sure aren't doing it for aesthetics. Unless I misunderstood your first statement. :o

"Well that gets you strong abs. And, if he gets the fat off, then they will probably look fine. But if he really wants distended looking hypertrophic abs, then I think he wants some direct ab work.

Having seen some guys with big abs who were also cut (isn't that one of those steroid side effects everyone used to mention?), it's not a look that I would shoot for."

So zenpharaohs you don't approve then?:nope::nono:

lol, obviously I don't want them to look freaky, but I've never had my body fat low enough to see them really well, and I've never done weights seriously for a long period of times before.

I just want to keep working out so that when I get rid of the fat what's underneath looks good. It's no hardship for me to do some ab work - but the original post was because I didn't want to be doing unnecessary work if it wouldn't help and even worse might have a negative effect. I doing 180 repetitions 3x a week and thinking this might be excessive.

Maybe if I post a pic to show what I aiming for (I know it will depend on my genetics but this is just a kind of ballpark target)

So this is what I'm aiming for - i don't think that looks freaky

I've never done weights seriously for a long period of times before.


So this is what I'm aiming for - i don't think that looks freaky

A: If you've never done weights serious for a long time, then we gotta talk. And NOT about abs. We have to talk about big compounds.

B: That guy is lean enough so his normally developed abs are visible. You don't need a huge ab program for that.

For example this guy isn't even posing, doesn't even have his shirt off:

http://www.greece-2004.com/Pyrros-Dimas/pic3.jpg

and that Olympic gold medal he is kissing wasn't for crunches.

It was for this:

http://www.olympionikes.gr/site/images/stories/dimas1%20(Small).jpg


You might wonder how lifting a big weight over your head gets you strong abs. Well, the short answer to that is sort of "try it and see" and the long answer is "lots of different ways". When MannishBoy suggested big compounds and overhead work, he was not just whistling dixie.

Plus you can see that Mr. Dimas has gotten some other muscles developed as well as his abs.

I always thought this was a byproduct of HGH causing the organs to swell. :confused:

As far as training for strength goes, I think some ab work still has it's place. The guys at Westside advocate heavy ab training twice a week and they sure aren't doing it for aesthetics. Unless I misunderstood your first statement. :o

I agree with strength training if you are needing strength there due to deficiencies somewhere. That's what I do it for when I do it. And the stuff I do doesn't include laying down crunch stuff for the most part, but stuff designed to help me stabilize things so that I don't lose form under heavy stuff and hurt myself.

I was pretty deficient in core stability when I got back into lifting, which was really why I got back into lifting. I had just had major ab surgery and just wanted to get back to being able to stand fully vertical. Even then I didn't do a bunch of crunches, but did stuff like planks, leg raises, dead bugs, etc. And squats, deads, overhead presses, pullups :)

I think it's kind of an efficiency thing. Doing the aforementioned 540 reps of ab stuff in a week is time I could spend lifting heavy things and letting the majority of the ab stuff be handled by that was my philosophy.

Plus, I hate doing ab work. :D


As for ben1880's example pic, that guy doesn't have a ton of hypertrophy anywhere. He's just lean with an average musculature. That IMO wouldn't require excessive direct ab work.

Ask mastover what he does, I'm sure that would be much more informed than what I'm saying, though :)

Thanks zenpharaohs,

can you try and post the first picture again its just a white screen?

So compound exercises... :confused:

At the moment it seems the only one I'm doing is squats (my routine is Romanian deadlift, bent over dumbell one arm rows, seated dumbell shoulder press, lat pulldowns, dumbell squat, leg extension machine - because the reverse lunge I was doing was killing my knees, and we dont have anything at my gym for me to do a step up, bench press, dips). I do want to change my dumbell squat to a barbell squat (the one where the barbell rests on your shoulders behind you head), and change the leg extension to a barbell deadlift.

What do you think?

Oh and was also thinking about changing the lat pull downs to lat pull ups (there's an assisted machine at the gym)

You might wonder how lifting a big weight over your head gets you strong abs. Well, the short answer to that is sort of "try it and see" and the long answer is "lots of different ways". When MannishBoy suggested big compounds and overhead work, he was not just whistling dixie.

For an experiement: Take a 45 and hold it over your head and walk around the gym for a couple of minutes. Kinda like an overhead farmers walk. Tell us if you can feel it in your abs.

As far as training for strength goes, I think some ab work still has it's place. The guys at Westside advocate heavy ab training twice a week and they sure aren't doing it for aesthetics.

What do the Westside guys do overhead? I think that is sort of the deal there. Louie tends to like doing things which unload the spine so I don't see heavy jerks as a favorite of his.

Plus, when you start squatting seven plates I can imagine that your abs have been left behind if you haven't paid attention to them.

But if you go back to my Pyrros Dimas example, we have an idea of what his training is like. It's probably a lot like miles and miles of this clip of one of his workouts:

xVB_rQFSsEg

Thanks zenpharaohs,

can you try and post the first picture again its just a white screen?

So compound exercises... :confused:

At the moment it seems the only one I'm doing is squats (my routine is Romanian deadlift, bent over dumbell one arm rows, seated dumbell shoulder press, lat pulldowns, dumbell squat, leg extension machine - because the reverse lunge I was doing was killing my knees, and we dont have anything at my gym for me to do a step up, bench press, dips). I do want to change my dumbell squat to a barbell squat (the one where the barbell rests on your shoulders behind you head), and change the leg extension to a barbell deadlift.

What do you think?

Oh and was also thinking about changing the lat pull downs to lat pull ups (there's an assisted machine at the gym)

A: Yeah I fixed it.

B: Just about every exercise you mentioned is a compound exercise except for the leg extension.

C: You can do step ups on aerobic steps, at least the "The Original Step" kind. I've deadlifted on those steps which is a combined weight of over 700 pounds, and I have done step ups with 315# on them.

What do the Westside guys do overhead? I think that is sort of the deal there.

Good point. I know a few guys like Jim Wendler (http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=59847&tid=63) like to overhead press but that's more of an exception than the rule from the training logs that I've seen.

Hello,

I've been working out for about 10 weeks now and gradually changing my ab workout, but it's getting to the point were I just think I'm doing too much and could maybe get better results. I have a nice layer of fat covering them! And am in the process of losing that but I want to be doing the best I can so that when I do lose it they look good.

This is my ab routine 3x a week before the rest of my weights session

3x12 - this is a sort of pulse-up++ after I do the pulse-up I then lower my legs (keeping them straight) to a couple of inches off the floor, then raise them (keeping them straight - although by the third set this is v. difficult) for the next pulse-up and repeat.

3x12 - Russian twist holding two 3kg dumbells

3x12 - Crunch - lying on a mat with my knees bent and my hands behind my head then lift them over my head (holding 8kg dumbell) in an arc towards my legs and crunch

3x12 - same as above but oblique crunch for each side

Is this too much? I do this in a gym so have access to pretty much every ab type machine, plus loads of cable machines etc. Would appreciate any suggestions.

Cheers :tu:

ben1880

Since you're pretty new to weight-training, I would recommend doing ab work. I would not use your current exercises, however. There's more to ab work than crunching and crunching and twisting variants.

I'd suggest something like:

1. Diagonal Cable Chops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqGEJr6GAt4)
2. Saxon Bends (http://fitness102.blogspot.com/2007/10/saxon-bend.html)
3. Hanging Knee-hip Raises (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/RectusAbdominis/WtHangingLegHipRaise.html) (if you're not strong enough to do these, they can be done lying on an incline bench).
4. Standing or Kneeling Cable Crunches (http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=437678669&channel=211755171&lineup=481520282)

I would vary with similar exercises every 4-6 weeks though.

You should also ensure that you supplement your ab work with sufficient work for your lower back. You don't want to have strong abs and a weak lower back as that will expose you to injury. Hyperextensions (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/WtHyperextension.html), supermans (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/Superman.html), and various isometric plank holds are good ideas. As you get stronger throughout your body, I would strongly suggest working in some overhead work as well, as being able to confidently support weight overhead is a fundamental skill. Overhead squats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxvrcwmU4qo), overhead supports (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQx5ywu4knQ), waiter's walks (http://www.fitnessdotcom.com/waiterswalk.html), etc. would all be good exercises to train to this end.

Keep in mind, however, that this all should remain supplementary to the rest of your weight-training routine and relegated to maybe 10-15 minutes after the rest of your work is done a couple times per week. Squatting, deadlifting, pulling, and pressing should form the basis of any good weight-training routine and remain most important for an uninjured person.

Ben 1880...

I do them on a separate day because the whole routine I do takes about 45 min to an hour. I throw in some HipHop and Martial Art work as well with the mix.

The stuff I do works incredibly well for my abs.....can't speak for anybody else.

I do all sorts of stuff for abs,changing up on a regular basis.

The few ex's I mentioned in this thread are not the entire picture.

Thanks everyone for all the info. I think I will keep doing ab exercises but will mix it up a lot more - and definitely start doing some lower back exercises as well to balance things out. Thanks for the links chicanerous :tu:.