A bit of background first. When I set my goal weight back in June, I knew my body fat, and thus my lean mass. I made the assumption (even though I knew it would not hold true) that my lean mass would remain the same and that I wanted 10% body fat. This gave me a goal weight of 174 lbs.

Since I have almost certainly lost some lean mass, my goal weight for 10% body fat is probably lower than this. What I'm unsure of is what a typical ratio of muscle to fat loss is.

I looked at John's stats for his Jan '07 cutting phase and came up with these figures:

236, 19%

191.16 lbs lean
44.84 lbs fat

186.6, 6%

175.404
11.196 lbs fat

Lost 15.75 lbs lean
Lost 33.644 lbs fat

lean mass to fat loss ratio: 0.468 lbs lean mass lost for every lb. of fat.

I wonder if that's pretty typical. Do most people really lose about a half pound of lean mass for every pound of fat lost?

I assume John knows what he's doing when he cuts so I have to imagine his lean mass loss is about as good as one can hope for..

What do you all think? Do you have an experience that differs?

I'm thinking my goal weight is probably down in the 160's somewhere.. I'm 6'1..

A good amount of that lean mass was probably and most likely water weight. Also, when you're cutting down to a low body fat like 6%, some lean mass loss is probably expected (not too sure because i've never cut that low)

A good amount of that lean mass was probably and most likely water weight. Also, when you're cutting down to a low body fat like 6%, some lean mass loss is probably expected (not too sure because i've never cut that low)

A good amount? How much would you estimate? I can't imagine someone retaining more than a few pounds of water weight.. but what do I know? :)

lean mass to fat loss ratio: 0.468 lbs lean mass lost for every lb. of fat.

I assume John knows what he's doing when he cuts so I have to imagine his lean mass loss is about as good as one can hope for.
Once you're established in a consistent fat loss program, water weight fluctuation will not be a significant factor, assuming you drink roughly the same amount of water each day. You're going to process the same amount of water each day. It's a non-variable in that case because each day, water in will be approximately equal to the water you excrete.

Further, if you assume John's statistics and application of his program is the "best one can hope for", then would it not stand to reason that most people lose more lean mass per lb. of fat than John did?

It's by far true that some people retain lean mass more easily while others retain fat more easily. This is likely going to be subjective to body type and genetics (among other variables, but those are the biggest culprits that come to mind). Therefore, you aren't going to get a statistically valid number without sampling a very large portion of the exercising public. Also critical is the fact that your sampling of persons would have to be engaged in a program primarily centered around body fat loss.

I wouldn't worry about it. Eat. Lift. Do cardio. Record it all, and then play with the numbers later. That's what I do - I'd rather worry about what my body can do than what's typical of others.

-R

I posted the same question last week: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=39329 .

Only a few replied, but I also analyzed John's results in my last post on it if you're interested.

The fat/muscle loss ratio will also depend on how low (in terms of %bf) you are going. John went to 6% which is pretty low. Your ratio is going to be quite a bit different going from 20% to 18% than it is going from 8% to 6%. The ratio isn't going to be the same across the entire range.

I have set a goal of dropping my BF% to 10%. I have already lost 10 lbs in about a month; of which I estimate 7 lbs of BF and 3 lbs of LBM. I have accepted the fact that as long as I am in a calorie deffecit I will lose LBM as I lose BF. I figure to (realistically) achieve my goal I still need to lose about 30 lbs. with a total loss of 22 lbs BF and 8 lbs of LBM. This is a ratio of 2.75 lbs (BF) to 1 lbs (LBM). I am currently 190 lbs @ 19%; My goal is 160 lbs @ 10%. Is this a realistic goal, or am I kidding myself on how much or how little LBM I am going to lose to get to where I want to be? :confused:

I have set a goal of dropping my BF% to 10%. I have already lost 10 lbs in about a month; of which I estimate 7 lbs of BF and 3 lbs of LBM. I have accepted the fact that as long as I am in a calorie deffecit I will lose LBM as I lose BF. I figure to (realistically) achieve my goal I still need to lose about 30 lbs. with a total loss of 22 lbs BF and 8 lbs of LBM. This is a ratio of 2.75 lbs (BF) to 1 lbs (LBM). I am currently 190 lbs @ 19%; My goal is 160 lbs @ 10%. Is this a realistic goal, or am I kidding myself on how much or how little LBM I am going to lose to get to where I want to be? :confused:

According to your bodyfat calculations, you have a lean body mass of 153.9 pounds. Let's say you wanna keep that entire amount of lean body mass and not lose a tenth of a pound. That means at 10 percent bodyfat, you'd weigh 171 pounds.

Do you really wanna lose more than 10 pounds of lean body mass? Concentrate on not losing the lean body mass and you'll look better at 171 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat than you would at 160 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat. And that'll be that much less LBM you'll be trying to regain once you start trying to put on muscle.

According to your bodyfat calculations, you have a lean body mass of 153.9 pounds. Let's say you wanna keep that entire amount of lean body mass and not lose a tenth of a pound. That means at 10 percent bodyfat, you'd weigh 171 pounds.

Do you really wanna lose more than 10 pounds of lean body mass? Concentrate on not losing the lean body mass and you'll look better at 171 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat than you would at 160 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat. And that'll be that much less LBM you'll be trying to regain once you start trying to put on muscle.

Except it's pretty much impossible to diet down to 10% body fat without at least some loss of muscle.

I should be at 10% body fat at my current weight of 173, according to calculations I made when I was 187 lbs and was hydrostatically weighed.

I'm probably closer to 14% give or take a point right now. So I know I've lost some lean mass, even though I do everything possible short of waking up and eating in the middle of the night to preserve lean muscle.

According to your bodyfat calculations, you have a lean body mass of 153.9 pounds. Let's say you wanna keep that entire amount of lean body mass and not lose a tenth of a pound. That means at 10 percent bodyfat, you'd weigh 171 pounds.

Do you really wanna lose more than 10 pounds of lean body mass? Concentrate on not losing the lean body mass and you'll look better at 171 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat than you would at 160 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat. And that'll be that much less LBM you'll be trying to regain once you start trying to put on muscle.

Dude,

If only I could lose nothing but fat. I think it is inevitable to lose LBM while cutting. In an effort to lose as little LBM as possible I have increased my protien intake to nearly 1.5 g per lbs of body weight, and I am doing heavy Compound Lifts. But I am relegated to the fact that I am going to lose LBM while cutting my BF% down. I was just looking to see if any one knew what the average ratio of BF : LBM lost was.

According to your bodyfat calculations, you have a lean body mass of 153.9 pounds. Let's say you wanna keep that entire amount of lean body mass and not lose a tenth of a pound. That means at 10 percent bodyfat, you'd weigh 171 pounds.

Do you really wanna lose more than 10 pounds of lean body mass? Concentrate on not losing the lean body mass and you'll look better at 171 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat than you would at 160 pounds at 10 percent bodyfat. And that'll be that much less LBM you'll be trying to regain once you start trying to put on muscle.

This is just my opinion, but if you have roughly 20 percent body fat and weight in a 190 pounds, then you have some room to gain some lean mass. I've been a sportswriter now for just over five years, and I've seen many young athletes undergo similar transformations with about your same stats -- these are high school kids and some small-college kids who are just getting serious about training. But their stats are about the same. Many of them (I cover a lot of football) weight about 200 pounds with about 20 percent body fat. I've seen (because of their height) linebackers need to transform into strong safeties or tight ends need to transform to fullbacks and a few that stayed at their same position, but they needed to trim down and gain strength (and gaining lean mass is a byproduct of gaining strength). In the sports field, strength coaches rarely talk about "bulking up" to their athletes ... its all about strength gains.

I say that to offer this possible tactic. Obviously, you'll need to eat clean, so I won't go into diet. What about relaxing on the cardio and concentrating on resistance training. If you use lifting weights (and there are many different ways to do it) as a way to shed a few of those pounds, you'll start to build more lean mass. That will, in turn, use your fat stores as fuel for the new-found muscle. It might take longer for your fat stores to go down this way (actually, it will take longer), but I think you'll love the end result much better.

As an example, there was a linebacker at Catawba who was just under 200 with about 20 percent body fat. He was, honestly, too small to play linebacker, even at the DII level. Over the course of the last three weeks of his freshman season and an entire offseason, this kid only cut 10 pounds of total body mass, but he cut his fat percentage to about 12. At 188 and 12 percent BF, he was a totally different person. At 5-foot-10 he even had a few abs poking out, something he said he hadn't had since middle school.

Anyway, I just offered that as something you could think about. Now, the above guy still did running, but it wasn't for cardio's sake. They were primarily speed and agility drills. But you'd never see a football player huffing it for 30 minutes on a treadmill.

Before, also, you get discourages saying, "That guy was a college athlete, he had trainers and dietitians and all this help." I retort with the fact that he was at a small college with limited resources. He didn't have much more of an advantage that most of us who have memberships to decent gyms.

Dude,

If only I could lose nothing but fat. I think it is inevitable to lose LBM while cutting. In an effort to lose as little LBM as possible I have increased my protien intake to nearly 1.5 g per lbs of body weight, and I am doing heavy Compound Lifts. But I am relegated to the fact that I am going to lose LBM while cutting my BF% down. I was just looking to see if any one knew what the average ratio of BF : LBM lost was.

Old Berardi stuff

***Weight Loss From Diet Only***Lean Mass Loss / Weight Loss = 10.4 / (10.4 + initial fat weight (kg) )

***Weight Loss As Noted***
• Aerobic exercise alone leads to a 3 lb weight loss in 12 weeks and a 6.6-lb weight loss in 30 weeks. This is accompanied by no losses in LBM (*at maintenance caloric intake).
• Resistance exercise alone leads to no weight loss but a 2.2 lb (women) to 4.4 lb (men) gain in LBM in 8-12 weeks (*at maintenance caloric intake).
• Diet alone leads to a 6.4 lb LBM loss for every 22 lbs weight lost.
• Diet plus aerobic exercise leads to a 3.74 lb LBM loss for every 22 lbs weight lost
• Diet plus resistance exercise leads to losses in fat mass and a preservation of LBM.


Rate of weight loss, calorie deficit, current bodyfat, current body mass, training regimen, nutritional regimen all have an impact. Use the above to map out milestones and do better than projections/readjust as necessary. I don't believe losses in LBM are inevitable until you get into single digit bodyfat.