Bummer, SwoleCat just refused to sign me up for SwoledUp2 because I'm a vegetarian. I guess I'm on my own on this one....

(With some support and help of you guys of course :) )

Oh well. Since SwoleCat says you can't bulk up and add LEAN MUSCLE mass without meat I'm all the more determined to prove him WRONG :bb:

Robert dos Remedios is a vegan and a strength coach. You might try looking around for some articles by him.

Here (http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do;jsessionid=FB0C0244F64ED1393E91E7CF 0084AE26.hydra?id=1587252&cr=features) is an interview.

I would very much like to know what the reasons are that Swolecat feels you can put on much lean muscle without meat.

I am a vegetarian for moral reasons, and have been for a few months now. I feel I get more protein now (and cheaper too) than I ever have. The reasons for this are two fold: 1. I actively seek out protein sources knowing that I dont eat meat and 2. I still eat dairy and eggs.

I eat things like Quinoa (complete protein) and a vastly varied diet of beans, rice and lentils as well as plenty of fruit, veg, eggs, milk and yogurt. I dont mind the dairy because it doesnt involve killing but I still believe that enough protein can be consumed without it. Its just a matter of ensuring a varied and colorful diet.

I was a vegetarian for about 4 1/2 years when I was younger. Then I went to a barbeque :o

Dutch, ofcourse you can gain muscles being a vegetarian...since getting carbs shouldnt be a problem, youll need lots of protein...Take a look at this guy..Between you and me, he looks better than most meat eating bodybuilders out there.... http://www.bodybuilders.com/butt.htm

Yea, Im not done yet....The guy above is a vegetarian (he uses a new Vegan Protein supplement which I forgot), but this guy is a vegan (not even dairy)... http://www.bodybuilders.com/over40.htm ..And the scary part is, he feels he improved being a vegan

I've been vegan for about 27 years. I am quite muscular and, since restarting weight training, I have put on a bit more muscle. I don't bother much with my diet - I just eat normal meals. That might change in the future. For good advice on vegan weight training have a look at www.veganfitness.net/ (http://www.veganfitness.net/) and http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ .

They both have forums. And threads on both strength and bodybuilding as well as various sports.

I think quite a few of them use pea protein and soya protein.

MannishBoy, Jokat, Buster, Transition and Blighty I thank you all for the kind responses! :tu:

As an alternative protein source besides eggs, nuts and whey/casein shakes I eat a lot of Quorn and seitan. I used to eat lots of tofu but I cut back on that because I read not so good things about it. Also lentils, beans etc combined with rice make a good protein source. I think if you'd vary between these products and make sure you got at least a few of those in your daily diet, you get all the protein you need.

(Info about quorn: http://www.quorn.co.uk/CMSPage.aspx?ssbid=6 ; info about seitan (or wheat gluten) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_gluten_(food)

Thanks also for the interesting links. Yes, I agree that there's no reason why one couldn't build some lean mass without meat. These guys prove it. Perhaps it's more of a challenge, but that's okay.

SwoleCat acknowledged this as well in a second email he sent me yesterday. I hope he won't mind me quoting him:


I'm not saying it "can't" be done, but the process is extremely hard and the dietary layout must be impeccable. Meaning, using eggs/whites/casein/whey are going to be your exclusive "real" protein sources. The others you listed are not pure proteins, and that's an issue when you are looking for protein only and nothing else (such as carbs). So, you would be eating the same thing everyday over and over and over. I can do that, but I have more choices to choose from to at least mix it up from meal to meal. (fish, turkey, chicken, beef, etc.)

Fair enough!

Anyway, thanks again you guys. I'll start slowly bulking tomorrow and see where it ends. I'm a true ectomorph, so building muscle will be hard enough as it is, but I don't mind. I'll keep with this lifestyle of eating healthy and working out whatever the visual results because I'm feeling fitter and healthier then ever before. Besides, my strength has improved dramatically.

Everybody keep on lifting :bb:

Bummer, SwoleCat just refused to sign me up for SwoledUp2 because I'm a vegetarian. I guess I'm on my own on this one....

(With some support and help of you guys of course :) )

Oh well. Since SwoleCat says you can't bulk up and add LEAN MUSCLE mass without meat I'm all the more determined to prove him WRONG :bb:

Please don't include only PARTS of what I said, as my 2nd letter explained MUCH more about this, and how you could do it, but what foods you would be limited to. I simply do not wish to work with vegetarians in my profession, and that is my choice. (EDIT: I just saw where you posted my 2nd response, so you did include that to be fair, thank you)

Remember, I said I was FILLED with CLIENTS at the time/day you inquired. That was the INITIAL reason for not being able to assist you, no matter what you eat/do not eat.

As well, my idea of what a well sculpted and muscular body/shredded body is, looks VERY different from those who are vegetarians here and at other locations who refer to themselves as muscular and shredded/lean. So, no reason to try to "prove me wrong" as that is the wrong source of motivation. There will be no physique created with a V lifestyle that will impress me being that I work with "meat eaters" and have assisted well over 1000 people. So, don't aim to prove me wrong or impress me, work to be happy with your body and happy w/yourself and goals.

There are no pros, IFBB, NPC, cover models, bb'ers who are sponsored, powerlifters, buff/shredded cover models and featured amateur bb'ers who are vegetarians. That should kind of stress the importance of meat/fish/etc. in a diet when you are attempting to look like others do who eat those things in large quantities. I understand you may not be trying to become one of the above types of people who appear in mags and shows and such, it was just a testament to what one can accomplish and the level of that development when ALL food resources are available.

I am sure you'll be able to find a service or program to strive towards your goals. It's just my personal preference to not work with such hinderances because I like to turn out the best results in those I assist, and I see eliminating meat as a serious hinderance not only in the beginning but down the road when things need to be taken out of the diet and to adjust. With no meat in the diet, there is nothing to take out or lower since you are very limited in your choices to begin with just to get whatever protein you can get.

My saying is "nothing builds beef like beef", and I've said it for years. Everyone is free to choose his/her lifestyle just as I am free to choose who I assist. I even refuse some who DO eat meat, simply because I don't feel they have the dedication needed to be successful on my protocols.
I aim for the BEST for each person I assist, NOTHING less.

Best of luck!

~SC~

There are no pros, IFBB, NPC, cover models, bb'ers who are sponsored, powerlifters, buff/shredded cover models and featured amateur bb'ers who are vegetarians.

http://www.bodybuilders.com/over40.htm

My moms a vegetarian and I was looking up some stuff for her since she started lifting weights and I came up with this (http://vegetarianbodybuilder.com/index2.html) site. I would say for a 52 year old natural who only started lifting 8 years ago (plus the vegetarian thing) he's doing pretty well, and his site seems to have allot of good information for vegetarians on it.


As well, my idea of what a well sculpted and muscular body/shredded body is, looks VERY different from those who are vegetarians here and at other locations who refer to themselves as muscular and shredded/lean. So, no reason to try to "prove me wrong" as that is the wrong source of motivation. There will be no physique created with a V lifestyle that will impress me being that I work with "meat eaters" and have assisted well over 1000 people. So, don't aim to prove me wrong or impress me, work to be happy with your body and happy w/yourself and goals.

There are no pros, IFBB, NPC, cover models, bb'ers who are sponsored, powerlifters, buff/shredded cover models and featured amateur bb'ers who are vegetarians. That should kind of stress the importance of meat/fish/etc. in a diet when you are attempting to look like others do who eat those things in large quantities. I understand you may not be trying to become one of the above types of people who appear in mags and shows and such, it was just a testament to what one can accomplish and the level of that development when ALL food resources are available.
Not looking to prove you wrong or impress you or anything like that, but theres no need to try and discourage someone from their eating choices, especially when using "facts" that just aren't correct. You eat meat and I eat meat, that doesn't mean EVERYONE has to eat it, or that a great physique can't be built without it. It may be allot harder in the diet department, but incomplete vegetable proteins can be complimented with other types of vegetable proteins to make complete protein sources, meat and animal products are not the only way to obtain complete proteins.

http://www.bodybuilders.com/albert.htm

He has been on the covers of Iron Man, Muscle Up, and Muscle Mag International. He has been featured in Iron Man, Muscle Up, MuscleMag International, Muscle Digest, and Flex. One surprising tidbit of information is that Albert Beckles has had such a successful career while being a vegetarian!

http://www.bodybuilders.com/over40.htm

Like I said, I won't be impressed. :lol:

Of course there are people out there somewhere who are non-meat eaters who have decent bodies and are not fat, yes, but like I said it's nothing that I am used to seeing or working with for results and it's far from impressive. You have to understand what I am used to seeing, the shows I attend, and what I consider "IMPRESSIVE". That is not impressive, to me anyhow.

Just stating my opinion as I am entitled to do so much like everyone else here does.

~SC~

Not looking to prove you wrong or impress you or anything like that, but theres no need to try and discourage someone from their eating choices.

I simply said I choose to not work with vegetarians. I said "good luck" and not once did I discourage him from working towards his goals. I even said it can be done with the limited items he can eat, I just said it won't fit into MY PROTOCOLS.

Please read and understand before you post.

My post was not meant to be negative, but again, I'm used to being attacked here for some reason, perhaps because of the success I've had, or that I'm a sponsor, but not once was I demeaning in nature at all. However, when someone starts a thread and says "SwoleCat says blah blah blah, I expect all the keyboard pros to jump in and get their punches in. It's almost as if people wait for threads like this to jump down my throat. Funny thing is, it's not warranted whatsoever!

I don't work with vegetarians, big whoop, that's a choice I make in running my own business and I am fully entitled to do so.

Here's a groundbreaking idea!!! Instead of focusing on ME and what I do/don't do, why not help the thread starter instead?? That would be something positive in nature, and would serve a purpose.

~SC~

Just to beat a dead horse, I even explained what he'd have to do in order to gain lots of lean mass without getting FAT. (usually non-meat eaters resort to mostly carbs, and that ain't gonna work) So please people, read the entire thread before you type a response.

~SC~



SwoleCat acknowledged this as well in a second email he sent me yesterday. I hope he won't mind me quoting him:

"I'm not saying it "can't" be done, but the process is extremely hard and the dietary layout must be impeccable. Meaning, using eggs/whites/casein/whey are going to be your exclusive "real" protein sources. The others you listed are not pure proteins, and that's an issue when you are looking for protein only and nothing else (such as carbs). So, you would be eating the same thing everyday over and over and over. I can do that, but I have more choices to choose from to at least mix it up from meal to meal. (fish, turkey, chicken, beef, etc.) "

Please keep this thread focused on support for veggies who want to gain muscle. Any more bickering and I'll just close it.

Thank you John. I was going to contact you about this getting out of hand and it may needing closing, but you're like Superman, you're all over the place, LOL!!!

Thx,
~SC~

Hmmm.... More like spiderman, "Johns spidey senses are tingling!!"

But in all seriousness, check out the links section on this site http://vegetarianbodybuilder.com/
There seems to be a few good links aimed towards eating for muscle growth while maintaining a vegetarian diet.
(I know I already posted that link, But I figured it was probably lost in the debate so I figured I would repost it).

I simply said I choose to not work with vegetarians. I said "good luck" and not once did I discourage him from working towards his goals. I even said it can be done with the limited items he can eat, I just said it won't fit into MY PROTOCOLS.

Please read and understand before you post.

My post was not meant to be negative, but again, I'm used to being attacked here for some reason, perhaps because of the success I've had, or that I'm a sponsor, but not once was I demeaning in nature at all. However, when someone starts a thread and says "SwoleCat says blah blah blah, I expect all the keyboard pros to jump in and get their punches in. It's almost as if people wait for threads like this to jump down my throat. Funny thing is, it's not warranted whatsoever!

I don't work with vegetarians, big whoop, that's a choice I make in running my own business and I am fully entitled to do so.

Relax man! My neither mine nor sevenatenine's posts to this thread weren't negative towards you nor anyone else. And the bit about 'proving you wrong' was typed by me with a friendly wink and a smile. No need to get all defensive or upset. I'd almost think that somebody is taking himself way too serious here.

In fact I agree: You are certainly entitled to chose not to work with vegetarians, and if it's any consolation, I didn't lose any sleep on it. I'll just happily keep on doing what I do: be a vegetarian and working out.

Vegetarians out there: never get discouraged. It can be done! Sevenatenine, thanks very much for the interesting link :bow:

Everybody just do it YOUR way! Let's try to respect eachother, whether we are vegetarians or meat-eaters or vegans or what else. Peace! :)

Dutch Jerry, when I first read your post, I didn't know you were talking about bodybuilding. I know nothing about that subject and have no interest in it but I would advise you to stick to your plans. I know that an adequate vegan or vegetarian diet can give us everything we need. If the only doubts are about protein and other nutrients you can get all you need without meat - at least for the purposes of adding muscle and increasing strength. If there are special, non-vegetarian, supplements that are definitely needed for huge muscles you are probably snookered in that department and you will have to revise your goals.

As I said, I don't know about bodybuilding but I think that the lack of vegan/vegetarian strength sportspeople is due to culture and fear. Most people in industrialised countries still believe (erroneously) that meat is necessary for optimum health, and certainly for strength. They fear that giving it up will reduce their sporting ability. There are vegans - and probably vegetarians - now who are training to go into strongman competitions. They are very few in number and it will be years before enough with the right genetics and determination come to prominence. But it will happen.

If you have the right genetics, train properly and your diet is adequte you will reach your goals. Train hard, be clever and keep the faith. And visit those websites I linked to. There are some very strong people over there.

The next two sites look interesting but I haven't had time to read them yet:

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2003issue4/vj2003issue4weight.htm

http://www.andrews.edu/NUFS/vegathletes.htm