I think that if I have to add this element into my quest not to be a fatass I will fail. So, I'm stubborn and going at it by eating all the right foods but just enough so I'm not starving with more protein around workouts. There are some great lists of foods here to help me... I'm just not going to do the chart and research.

Am I probably going to be fine? A case of whatever-works-for-you?

Also, I tend to think my body desires what I should have when working out. I tend to want salads the lunch after and tuna after the weight session. Any merit to that?

I think you can definatly lose weight without counting calories/macros. Switching from crappy processed foods to healthier foods will result in eating less calories, switching juice/pop/other liquid calories for water will result in consuming less calories and in the end consuming less calories will result in weight loss.

If you can make it work for you without counting calories then all the power to you! You might get to a point where you want to fine tune your body (like getting to 5% body fat without losing all your muscle) by fine tuning your diet, at which point you might reconsider counting calories, but if weight loss is working for you without counting calories then keep up what your doing.

Personally I count my calories because it works for me, I like having the tangible number to work with. I tried just eating less and that didn't work, I tried eating "healthier" (at the time I don't think I even knew what healthy meant, I thought healthy was getting a cesare side salad with my burger from wendys lol) and that didn't work, then I tried eating healthy and counting calories and it just worked. I have full control of how fast or slow I lose, if I want to add 2lb's I can do that quite easily, I just love having FULL control with little guesswork.
Thats just why it works for me though, to each his own.

I think that if I have to add this element into my quest not to be a fatass I will fail. So, I'm stubborn and going at it by eating all the right foods but just enough so I'm not starving with more protein around workouts. There are some great lists of foods here to help me... I'm just not going to do the chart and research.

Am I probably going to be fine? A case of whatever-works-for-you?

Also, I tend to think my body desires what I should have when working out. I tend to want salads the lunch after and tuna after the weight session. Any merit to that?

Bill, for what's it's worth, I don't keep track either. Like you, if I had to, I probably wouldn't be able to stick with this. I'm a little over 2 years into my transformation and I've had success, maybe not as much as I could have, but success none the less without counting calories and keeping macros. See where you are in 6 months doing it your way, and if you're not satisfies, then maybe try a stricter approach. Good luck.

YOu know I'm with you on this one....Though I do count my calories and macrocs now -after 5 months in my transformation process - but beforehand it was real nuisance....If you think counting calories are bad, imagine ppl with food scales :)? The simplest thing is just to see if you make monthly progress and change accordingly...However, for all its worth, I gurantee youll be counting calories and macros when you start seeing results...Never underestimate the power of motivation

Thanks Guys. I have seen a bit of results but thats easy when you start at 5'11 240. I'm down to 210 and can almost guess what I will look like at the non-fatass stage of around 190.

I think you guys may be right though. If I ever get to the stage where I am looking bulky versus cut I will have to do something. I've never really wanted the size which is what happened to me back in college when I lifted 3 muscle groups (no legs). The goal now is to see how athletic I can get at 30... the 300 characters/UFC style versus beach muscles.

For now, four kids and long work week means the nutrition education will have to come later. Good to hear I'm not destined to hit a wall anytime soon. :eat:

I'm having a hard time keeping track...not because I'm eating too much or anything...but because I'm wondering if spending SO much time keeping track is worth it.

I have enough nutritional education to know what I can and cannot eat...how much, etc, etc. Only thing, when I don't keep track, I end up eating less than I should. That is one benefit I can see in counting calories.

I think that if I have to add this element into my quest not to be a fatass I will fail. So, I'm stubborn and going at it by eating all the right foods but just enough so I'm not starving with more protein around workouts. There are some great lists of foods here to help me... I'm just not going to do the chart and research.

Am I probably going to be fine? A case of whatever-works-for-you?

Also, I tend to think my body desires what I should have when working out. I tend to want salads the lunch after and tuna after the weight session. Any merit to that?
Mmmm..... :confused:

I think it all comes down to how serious you are with this fat loss. How bad do you want it?

You seem to think tracking calories is just too much of a hassle. That's cool, but I think you are tossing out an instrument that could really help you reach your goals efficiently.

I think at least you should track your food for a week or so. That way you will have a rough idea of how many calories and macronutricients you are getting with your current food habits. You may be surprised with the results, e.g. how many/little calories you are really eating and how many/little carbs etc. I know I was. Like Azure, I found I'd be eating way too little calories. I would never have known if I'd not track my calories for a while.

Of course after some time you'll get the idea and you may loosen up a bit on keeping track. But I'd recommend doing it at least for a while.

If you don't, just be honest to yourself and say 'I should do it but I just don't feel like it'. Don't tell yourself 'I don't do it, because I don't need it, because my body knows what it needs without counting'. No disrespect! Just my 2 cents. :)

Good luck with reaching your goals!

Mmmm..... :confused:

I think it all comes down to how serious you are with this fat loss. How bad do you want it?

You seem to think tracking calories is just too much of a hassle. That's cool, but I think you are tossing out an instrument that could really help you reach your goals efficiently.

I think at least you should track your food for a week or so. That way you will have a rough idea of how many calories and macronutricients you are getting with your current food habits. You may be surprised with the results, e.g. how many/little calories you are really eating and how many/little carbs etc. I know I was. Like Azure, I found I'd be eating way too little calories. I would never have known if I'd not track my calories for a while.

Of course after some time you'll get the idea and you may loosen up a bit on keeping track. But I'd recommend doing it at least for a while.

If you don't, just be honest to yourself and say 'I should do it but I just don't feel like it'. Don't tell yourself 'I don't do it, because I don't need it, because my body knows what it needs without counting'. No disrespect! Just my 2 cents. :)

Good luck with reaching your goals!

In regards to my body knowing...that was more of a question than putting down the idea of counting. When my wife was pregnant she at all the stuff her body needed. Different parts of the pregnancy require different foods and that happened to be what she craved. When I feel like a salad its usually early in the day preceding the workout and when I feel like a chicken breast its usually after working out so I thought there was something to it but I not knowing...

Maybe I will hit a wall and go for it... but right now with 4 young kids and demanding job its not on the table.

If there is a computer program that lets you map out yuor food for the week and spits out stats...I would try that. :eat:

Pretend you are experimenting with 2 mice, they have the same goal of losing weight.

Mouse A- Eats fairly regulary, basically has food there, eats when it is hungry. Uses exercise wheel periodically.

Mouse B- Eats well designed and controlled meals with correct nutrients and calorie levels. Exercises at set intervals.

Which mouse will be more successful?

If your plan works for you that's great. I would find it incredibly difficult to land my calories within 100-200 per day of my designated target. I find it tough still after tracking everything for 2 years. it really depends on what your goals are and how serious you are about attaining them.

Mouse C would make more coin if he stayed in the office longer and mouse D would have happier kids if he spent more time with them but there really is only one mouse so something has to give. How's that for beating the snot outta an anology? :D

Maybe I should start a new thread asking about the quickest way to count the suckas. Anyone use a PC program?

There are a few websites that make things fairly simple. I use

www.calorie-count.com

After awhile you know that X equals Y so you don't really need to do it but it's so easy to enter everything I still do.

Jan 2006 I cut out all the junk. Ate only good foods etc. By July 2006 I'd gone from 40" jeans to 38". Most of that happened early.

End of July 2006 to now I've counted calories etc. I've been in 29" jeans for awhile now. I might squeeze into 28" if I wanted to but 29" are nice and comfy.

There is no chance I could have gotten to this point.

If you really believe your body will tell you what you need I got to ask how did you manage to get over weight?

The human body wants to pack on fat when it has access to food.

Mouse C would make more coin if he stayed in the office longer and mouse D would have happier kids if he spent more time with them but there really is only one mouse so something has to give. How's that for beating the snot outta an anology? :D

Maybe I should start a new thread asking about the quickest way to count the suckas. Anyone use a PC program?

Theres really no call for this. I am trying to help you.

Personally, I have found it is necessary for me to weigh food and track calories in order to make any consistent and efficient changes. I'm not able to accurately gauge the calories and macronutrient breakdown of food just by sight, and even if I could, I wouldn't want to rely on mental arithmetic and memory alone to track it over each day.

If you want to try to lose weight without counting, I think that's the way you should do it. If it doesn't work out for you, then try counting and see if it works better.If you really believe your body will tell you what you need I got to ask how did you manage to get over weight?

The human body wants to pack on fat when it has access to food.I got overweight because I confused appetite with hunger. I think it happens to lots of people. Sometimes I just ate because a muffin looked pretty tasty, not because I really needed those calories. When I'm careful about the quality of my food (low in sugar and low in refined carbs), it's really hard to overeat.

I didn't use any calorie counting mechanism to get to a healthy body weight. To fine-tune my body fat percentage, I occasionally tracked calories for a few days at a time, but I was still usually fairly able to judge how much food was enough and how much was too much.

I don't think that anyone can intelligently refute that not counting calories is better than counting calories.

That being said:

1) Yes, you can still lose weight not counting calories. Just not at the same level of efficiency.

2) All the nutritional info out there are averages. I don't really believe that they are 100% accurate.

3) What your body is telling you may not actually be true. It takes a few minutes from the time you've had enough to eat before your body will tell you. If your body is telling you later on that you hadn't had enough eat to fuel your engine, then that's one thing. Keep eating until you're hungy is another. My body is a lying bastard, I try not to listen to him ;)


Personally, I don't count calories. I know how many calories I supposedly need, and I've worked out a few sample meals where I know the counts. I base my daily eating habits around my samples. I don't really think it's all that much work (maybe 10 minutes / day) to count all my calories, but if I do then I suffer from paralysis from over-analysis. If over time I stop losing weight, then I subtract a bit from my meals...it's not really that difficult.

But I'm not fooling myself either. If I was as serious as I could be about leaning out, I'd be weighing and counting out EVERYTHING. But for now, I'm happy enough not being 100% (or even 90% :( ) efficient in my fitness journey :)

When I'm careful about the quality of my food (low in sugar and low in refined carbs), it's really hard to overeat.


The problem is the calorie dense good food. Peanuts,nuts in general, oil. I'm guessing anything with a fair fat level will add up quickly. I could snack on peanuts all day and not feel full. But the calories would soar.

The problem is the calorie dense good food. Peanuts,nuts in general, oil. I'm guessing anything with a fair fat level will add up quickly. I could snack on peanuts all day and not feel full. But the calories would soar.

Agreed. I was shocked a few weeks ago when I finally got around to weighing 2 tbls of peanut butter, which is the standard 220 kcal serving for my jar. Much to my chagrin, 2 tbsp of PB is not 2 heaping (or even 1 :( ) big spoon full. It was much smaller than I thought it would be....

Conversely, I also got around to looking at spinach's info. I could eat heaps of it w/ no harm.

Honestly, I've spent so much time on calorieking searching macronutrient profiles of various foods that I could easily count my calories w/o even looking at labels or making an effort.


Pathetic, really.

I count it.. in my head...

I know I need to be in 2100-2400 cal per day range...So I just look at the labels before I eat.

I don't do macros... I don't own a food scale. I eat until I am satisfied...Not STUFFED.

I pick foods with high protein.
I pick foods with low sat fats
I pick foods with good fats
I pick foods with normal calories.


Eat healthy, good foods, drink water, drop beer and alcohol...exercise...that's what I do.

Works for me so far. 3 lbs lost per week.

Mouse C would make more coin if he stayed in the office longer and mouse D would have happier kids if he spent more time with them but there really is only one mouse so something has to give. How's that for beating the snot outta an anology?


Counting calories & working out macro's doesn't have to be time consuming. You just have to be efficient and businesslike about it. I used to think that maintaining a healthy diet was too much hassle, and frankly I thought those people who spent hours futzing around fretting about missing a meal and worrying about whether or not to eat bread or dairy were pretty pathetic. But then I realised that those people tended to look like John Stone, while I can’t run around the block without risking a fucking coronary, so who’s laughing? Now that I’m actually doing it all, I find it very easy. I’m going to try and help you out by walking you through the process of creating a diet which is:

(a) Balanced.
(b) Gives you the right macronutrients at the right times.
(c) Creates a calorie deficit sufficient enough to lose 1lb per week.
(d) Doesn’t eat up huge chunks of your time & interfere with your work & family life.

I don’t know your lifestyle or your stats so I can’t do all the work for you. However, I hope you’ll be able to take this advice & adapt it to your circumstances without too much bother. Before I can do that, however, I want to very briefly cover a few key biological facts just to make sure we’re on the same page. Apologies if you’re already aware of them. Like I said, I don’t know you.

1) You will not lose fat unless you burn off more calories than you consume.
2) If you starve yourself, your body will retaliate by conserving every available calorie as fat. This is called ‘Starvation Mode’. You must eat less calories than you burn off, but enough calories to avoid ‘Starvation Mode’. This is one reason why calorie counting is important.
3) A body that eats six smaller meals a day will burn calories more efficiently than a body that eats three larger meals a day.
4) There are three macronutrients (or macros). Protein, carbohydrates, and fat. Your body needs all three in certain amounts every day.

With these basic facts under your belt, you need to educate yourself further on the basics of nutrition for weight loss. Read the first posts in these two threads. That should take about half an hour.

marcus’ guide to nutrition for weight loss (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=1222)

Gravityhomer’s fat loss guide (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=19229)

They’re great, easy to read, and give you much more information than you have any right to expect for free.

Done that?

Good.

Now. The first thing you need to do is calculate your Basal Metabolic Rate, or BMR. Your body is always working. Keeping your heart beating and your temperature constant takes quite a lot of calories. Your BMR tells you how many calories you burn off sitting around doing nothing, just letting your body take care of business. You figure out your BMR with the following formula:

BMR = 66 + (13.7 X weight in kgs) + (5 X height in cms) – (6.8 X age in yrs).

My weight in kg’s is 75, my height in cm’s is 178, and I’m 24. I then put them into the formula, like this:

BMR = 66 + (13.7 X 75) + (5 X 177) – (6.8 X 24).

.The answer is 1814. That is my BMR. This means that if I were to sit on my ass doing nothing all day I would still burn off 1814 calories. You need to weigh yourself and then put in your own figures & work out your own BMR.

All done?

Good. That’s your BMR. We’re nearly there. Now you need to factor in the calories you burn of doing whatever it is you do. If you’re sedentary (little or no exercise) you multiply your BMR by 1.2 . If you take mild exercise 1-3 times a week, multiply it by 1.375. If you’re moderately active (working out 3-5 times per week) multiply it by 1.55. If you’re very active multiply it by 1.725 I fell into category 2, giving me a calorie total of 2455. Work out your calories in the same way and then subtract 500 from whatever figure you get. This is your target number of calories. Eating at this target level should lose you 1lb per week.

So that’s the calorie question answered. The next question is the timing of meals. Guava very helpfully provided me with this plan:

8 am carbs and protein
10am A well-balanced snack (carbs, proteins, fats)
1pm A protein-rich lunch (avoid starchy carbs)
4pm Pre workout (e.g. apple and peanut butter) and post workout snack (high GI carbs with protein)
7pm Fibre, lean protein and low-GI carbs
10pm A protein snack

To find out why this works, read this article here (http://findarticles.com /p/articles/mi_m1608/is_ 7_18/ai_88583525) . It’s short, easy, & informative.

There are other plans out there, but this one is good.

So now you know your target calories and when to eat. The next thing to look at is macronutrients. Marcus in the thread I linked to above recommends a 50/30/20 split. This means that 50% of your daily calories should come from carbohydrates, 30% from protein, and 20% from fat. There are other kinds of splits. John Stone used a 40/40/20 split when he started cutting. I don’t know which one is better, but they’re both good & I reckon 50/30/20 is easier to work out.

This is the hard part, but it’s the only hard part. You need to create six meals whose total calories add up to your target amount. Simultaneously, you need to make sure you’re getting the right macros at the right times as specified by the plan above. This is tricky and frustrating. There is a website which makes this much easier, however. It is http://www.calorieking.com It tells you how many calories, fat, protein, and carbohydrates are in virtually any food. Therefore, if you want a breakfast that has carbs & protein but not much fat, you can use the database to check to see whether the foods you choose fit your needs. Here is a list of foods which are high in one macro and low in the others:

Carbs: Oatmeal, bran flakes, pasta, rice, fruit & vegetables, wholemeal bread.
Protein: Chicken, beef, fish.
Healthy fat: Olive oil, flaxseed oil, peanuts, cashew nuts, peanut butter.

There are plenty more but these will do for now. If you want a breakfast which is high in carbs & protein but low in fat, it makes sense to have bran flakes & chicken. If you want a second breakfast (your 10:00am meal) which has some of all three, a tuna sandwich on wholemeal bread with a handful of peanuts would be a good choice.
http://www.calorieking.com also tells you how many calories are in each food, so once you’ve got the foods with the right macros, you just need to adjust the amounts to make sure you’re not going over your target calorie level.

This will take some time but it is very worth it. It makes you feel in control and helps eliminate the worry that bad diet choices are undoing your hard work at the gym.

It will probably take you a couple of hours with a calculator to work out a decent diet, but whatever you come up with will a firm step in the right direction. Once you’ve come up with something you feel is acceptable (it doesn’t have to be perfect), submit it to this forum and you’ll get some helpful tips for how to tweak it. After a quick revision or two you’ll be all set.

I know this sounds like an awful lot of work, but trust me. It really isn’t. I did all this in one afternoon. If you can reserve just one single day to creating your diet you will be able to come up with something really good. You’ll also learn so much about nutrition that any further revisions will be a piece of cake.

Now, you might feel like maintaining such a diet would be a lot of work. It really isn’t. Once you know what you’re going to eat the rest is a breeze. I make my first four meals of the day the night before consumption. I can do it in about 20 minutes, then I store them in Tupperware pots in the fridge & take them to work. The extra meal preparation time doesn’t eat into my day at all. Here are some other things you can do to save time:

1) Get a good pair of kitchen scales. They retail for about $20.00
2) Get a lot of Tupperware pots. They’re very cheap & can be picked up at any Home Depot store.
3) When selecting meat, buy meat which can be cooked from frozen. You’ll be able to buy frozen meat in bulk and very cheaply, and you won’t have to worry about waiting for it to defrost. I like whitefish.
4) Buy things like rice and vegetables in bulk.

That’s about everything I think will be helpful. Let us know how you get on if you decide to give it a try.

Great job George, that should be a sticky!!!

I do not know what I would do without my food scales I think that counting calories is very simple and somtimes can become very interesting to see what you are eating and how much of each food you are going to need.
It is simple you must consume less calories then you would need to maintain your current weight so yes you may be losing weight at the present time with what you are eating but as fat drops so must your calories or as muscle increases you must increase your calories other whise you are going to banging your head against a wall wondering why you are not getting anywhere.