Hi I'm a 16 Year old, Male, Mesomorph. I want to get into weight training, but I need some help first.

I have done a little research on the somatotypes, so I know that I should train accordingly to my body type. I am also a martial artist. I have no problem with skill but I am weak in my conditioning. So I decided to do something about it.

I have some questions:

1. What is the best way to train as a Mesomorph? I hope Mesomorphs on the forum can also help me out here.
2. Are there any good books I should read?
3. What are the rep/set principles of weight training? This was one of the bigger problems I had, because I never really understood this.
4. How do people like Jean Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Michael Jai White stay muscular but lean?

MY GOALS:

First, I want to lose all of my bodyfat and get into a lean condition. My goal is 3-5% bodyfat.
I want to maintain that weight loss plan while still practicing martial arts.
Then I want to start bulking. I want to gain and maintain an extra 50% muscle mass. I want to be able to handle it.
I want to have an excellent regime for: Performance, Time Management and Effectiveness.What I mean by this is:

*I want to augment my performance through Bodyweight Conditioning, Weight Lifting and Stretching. I will work on Power, Speed, Strength, Agility, Flexibility, Explosiveness, Stamina and Balance

*I want to use plans that are not too time consuming. 30-60 minute weight training workouts are reasonable for me.

*I want to use only effective training methods.

IMPORTANT TO NOTE:

I have some experience in bodybuilding and bodyweight conditioning. I have 3-6 months of solid weight training experience and about 1 years experience on bodyweight conditioning.
I already know the common myth that gaining muscle mass can effect my Speed, Balance, etc. I have done research on this one subject and I know it's something that can be handled.
I have year round access to my school gym, with an abundance of weight training gizmos and gadgets. I'm familiar with most of them and I am focusing the bulk of my weight training on Barbells, Dumbbells and Chin Up Bars. I will accept some machine exercises if they are good.A LITTLE ABOUT MY WEIGHT TRAINING EXPERIENCES

During those 3-6 months of weight training I've had good results, but they weren't the ones I was after. I actually had a great increase in strength and endurance, but I was after Muscle Mass. So after that I quit and became weak. I want to pass that point and skyrocket into new heights.
My nutrition was ok, but the two main problems were: I did not know exactly what to eat and I still had bad food habits.
I actually handled weight training very well. I had gone from a 3 day plan to a 5 day plan and then a 6 day plan in so little time. I am confident that I will have no trouble keeping a 5-6 day plan but I will start small.
I found weight training to be very fun, challenging and stress relieving. I slept better knowing I did something I loved but I now I can do better and I want to.ABOUT MY CURRENT SITUATION

I am in quite good shape, and my physique is alright. I am ok in the arms, chest and legs, but I have the "muscle belly" that Mesomorphs are known for. I do not have a six pack but I can see something of it.
I have a weight lifting class in my second semester so I will have some extra time to train! But right now I want to build a solid foundation.
I have a set of weights at my house, and a bench. The maximum weight I can get on the barbell is 70lbs. The max for the dumbbells is 50lbs. I am also interested in building a home gym for myself.Alright I hope that all of you members at JSFF can help me with my current situation. I am very interested in getting in the best shape of my life and continually moving on to bigger heights. I hope that you all can help a 16 year old Mesomorph do his best.

Disregard that you're a mesomorph, somatypes are overrated. They're originally classifications created by a psychologist to match temperments to body shapes. As well, the human body has too much variation to reliably place you in a system only based on three categories.

Buy the book Starting Strenth by Mark Rippetoe.

Sets, reps, loading schemes, tempo, rest periods, etc. are a complicated issue. Which ones you use depends largely on the attributes you're trying to train. The book I've recommended above offers good basic plans that will improve your overall strength and conditioning.

At your level of experience, you need to be extremely wary of overcomplicating issues and trying to train by more advanced methods. You simply don't need these things and will likely either hurt your progress or spin your wheels because you don't have the prerequisite training history under your belt in order to benefit from them. This includes things like plyometrics, accomodating resistance, and even conjugate programming (a la Westside). Simple linear weight and rep based progression will be your best guideline.

Jean Claude Van Damme, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Michael Jai White, etc. stay muscular but lean through careful attention to diet and regular conditioning. Illegal drug use is also a factor, though certainly not necessary for the average man to maintain a well-muscled and lean body.

3-5% bodyfat is an unrealistic goal. That is as low or lower than most bodybuilders are when they step on the stage to compete. As an athlete, to reach those levels, your performance will greatly suffer. You will be weakened and you will lose some muscle to get there. It will be impossible to maintain that level. A high single digit or low teen number should be your aim, instead.

Hi I'm a 16 Year old, Male

First, I want to lose all of my bodyfat and get into a lean condition. My goal is 3-5% bodyfat.


I want to use only effective training methods.

1. Congratulations. Consistent sensible effort will pay off in your situation.

2. 3-5% body fat is probably the worst thing you could do. It will give away your tremendous advantage of being a 16 year old male. Just don't. If you get into single digits body fat I would think you're selling yourself short. If you don't have decent fat, then you can't grow as fast, or make the hormones, or finish developing your nervous system. While you are supposed to be growing, staying way too lean could ruin everything.

3. Almost any training methods that you use now that do not involve a huge nutritional deficit will be effective. You are 16 years old and male. Just stick to eating right, eating enough, and making sure you lift safely and apply yourself consistently. Nothing wrong with martial arts training but in your situation you could make just as good gains training for gymnastics or track or weightlifting or basketball or tennis. Learn to lift weights properly and play lots of sports.

Welcome to JSF.

You should train according to your goals, not a body type classification with very limited meaning to the fitness world. You mention mesomorph like it's a different species.

Did you mean a 3-5% body fat reduction? As explained above, 3-5% as a total value is not reasonable and isn't consistent with your other stated goals. Train to become faster and stronger, the body fat will take care of itself.

Set/Rep principles get confusing when you approach them with the mindset of trying to figure out which one is universally "best". No such thing.

I second chic's recommendation on Rippetoe's Starting Strength as a good book source. Here's an FAQ (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224) that talks about the program, but it's no substitute for the complete text.

I second chic's recommendation on Rippetoe's Starting Strength as a good book source. Here's an FAQ (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224) that talks about the program, but it's no substitute for the complete text.
Yeah. The program is not the important part. The pages and pages of description and cues for the squat, deadlift, bench press, and power clean are the real valuable part.

Well, you didn't mention height or weight, that would be helpful info.

At 16, unless you're pretty chubby, I wouldn't try to lose weight.

I'd focus on lifting consistently 3-4x/wk with a balaced program, and on learnign to eat right.

My problem at 16 was complete lack of patience. I'd go for a few months and then go "Hey, I'm not huge and ripped yet, screw this it's not working." So I'd advise that you take a longer-term perspective. If you start now and stick with it, then unless your diet and routine completely suck, you'll look and feel very strong in time. I can't say whether that'll be at 18 or at 22, because it differs for different people, and it depends how much size you need to put on. But you'll see progress along the way.

Ok I guess I do have some misconceptions about bodyfat percentage.

I'd like to ask about one thing, besides the cosmetic gain that bodybuilding gives, is there any performance benefits or overall benefits? I know for sure that most bodybuilders tend to lack any functional strength, mostly the beginners who only think weights will make you the best.

I dont mean to put any of you down, because I respect what bodybuilding is about; a struggle and discipline.

But from my perspective, I really can't see any other benefit that bodybuilding will give besides muscular definition and mass. I think overall Weight Training can give excellent benefits. But I am not really sure if Bodybuilding is right for me. If there is more than just muscles and definition then I will definitely bodybuild, but if not then I will stick with what I have.

Define what you think the difference is between bodybuilding and weight lifting?

If you are just starting to lift (and you can't have had a long career of it at 16), I think you are worrying a bit too much about the technicalities.

You have to build the base before the differences really matter much, IMO. That means big compound movements with heavy weights with only minimal focus on the isolation type of stuff that bodybuilders would do once they've already spent several years getting to the point they need to balance out an already developed musculature.

So don't make it too complicated. Lift heavy stuff. Eat properly. Sleep. Repeat.

I'd like to ask about one thing, besides the cosmetic gain that bodybuilding gives, is there any performance benefits or overall benefits? I know for sure that most bodybuilders tend to lack any functional strength, mostly the beginners who only think weights will make you the best.

I think you have definitely been getting all your information from poor sources. I'm not really sure why you would think bodybuilders lack functional strength...... is there any other kind? Muscles don't just sprout out of your ass and hang on to your body to get in your way, they are used to move your body and bigger muscles are stronger then smaller ones on the same person. Now bigger muscles aren't the only way to get stronger (see neural adaptation) but I assure you, muscles don't get bigger without getting stronger.

Eat big, lift big, get big and strong.

I think you have definitely been getting all your information from poor sources. I'm not really sure why you would think bodybuilders lack functional strength...... is there any other kind? Muscles don't just sprout out of your ass and hang on to your body to get in your way, they are used to move your body and bigger muscles are stronger then smaller ones on the same person. Now bigger muscles aren't the only way to get stronger (see neural adaptation) but I assure you, muscles don't get bigger without getting stronger.

Eat big, lift big, get big and strong.


The difference I define between bodybuilding and weight lifting is bodybuilding is a sport in which the athlete works on gaining muscle mass, definition and lowering body fat percentage. Weight training is a more broader term referring to a specific type of strength training involving weights.


Functional Strength includes BODYWEIGHT STRENGTH. How many bodybuilders you know can do a handstand pushup? Or even a One Legged Squat? Because that's the type of training Bodyweight Conditioning is all about. Oh and not to mention an average bodybuilder's flexibility and speed.

I've changed my mind and I don't want to put on any muscle. I don't care if I am a Mesomorph or whatever. I was actually doing fine before, and I didn't have to do anything like count calories or whatever. I just lacked discipline.

I'm sorry I made all of you waste your time answering my questions. I do appreciate your help but I think I would be better off in other fields.

The difference I define between bodybuilding and weight lifting is bodybuilding is a sport in which the athlete works on gaining muscle mass, definition and lowering body fat percentage. Weight training is a more broader term referring to a specific type of strength training involving weights.
Weight training is definitely a broader term, but it merely refers to any type of training using weights. Bodybuilders weight train, powerlifters weight train, strongmen weigh train, athletes weight train. It's not synonymous with strength training, resistance training, or weight lifting (which happens to be a sport). Your definition of a bodybuilder is accurate, however, barring debate about the words "sport" and "athlete."

Functional Strength includes BODYWEIGHT STRENGTH. How many bodybuilders you know can do a handstand pushup? Or even a One Legged Squat? Because that's the type of training Bodyweight Conditioning is all about. Oh and not to mention an average bodybuilder's flexibility and speed.
How many bodybuilders do you know?

Functional Strength includes BODYWEIGHT STRENGTH. How many bodybuilders you know can do a handstand pushup? Or even a One Legged Squat? Because that's the type of training Bodyweight Conditioning is all about. Oh and not to mention an average bodybuilder's flexibility and speed.

I think you are falling for the stereotypes.

If you think somebody that can pull 800 lbs can't figure out how to do a 1 legged squat given a slight bit of training...

W1KD7cGRDDc

I'm not into "bodybuilding" per se, either, but some of those guys are strong. Relative to strongmen, powerlifters, or Olympic style weightlifters? Pound per pound they are probably weaker. However, they do have strength.

But if you think you would just suddenly turn into that type of physique in a few months or even a year or two, you don't understand at all what goes into it.

I know for sure that most bodybuilders tend to lack any functional strength

Try out my trainer Kenny. He trains as a bodybuilder and is a model for Nike.

pBQepjHAPGw

That one is actually a strongman exercise that I've seen Phil Pfister do.

HXmmx7loMx8

That one is one my previous trainer invented but according to a thrower I know it would be excellent for glide style shot putters.

lSuWqBIvOFk

Dumbell burpees. Now there's body building for you.

There's actually another body building trainer who used to be at my gym (he was back visiting today actually) and he's gone further into functional training than anyone else I know. (Single leg cable pull throughs on inverted bosu. Frightening, actually.)

I think guys have gone into and through and come out of body building from all sorts of directions. One of the original "functional" exercise gurus - Jack Lalanne - inventor of the cable machine - was a body builder before he became more of a strongman/swimmer type. John Grimek was on the US Olympic weightlifting team before he gave up lifting for body building; he gave a famous flexibility exhibition that made one noted "authority" of the time give up on the idea of "musclebound".

Here is Franco Columbu showing off his boxing training:

M2XlNMJTATc

I'm not into "bodybuilding" per se, either, but some of those guys are strong. Relative to strongmen, powerlifters, or Olympic style weightlifters? Pound per pound they are probably weaker.

Remember that Tom Platz was a body builder. Has anyone got past his 23 squats over 500#?

I just lacked discipline.
It would seem you still do.:rolleyes:

Remember that Tom Platz was a body builder. Has anyone got past his 23 squats over 500#?

But on average, wouldn't you think that somebody that trains specifically for strength and power wouldn't be stronger than the average trainer for muscle size and symmetry?

I've changed my mind and I don't want to put on any muscle. I don't care if I am a Mesomorph or whatever. I was actually doing fine before, and I didn't have to do anything like count calories or whatever. I just lacked discipline.

I'm sorry I made all of you waste your time answering my questions. I do appreciate your help but I think I would be better off in other fields.

Found a little resistence in your quest for help with resistence training did you? One thing you'll learn over time, is that if everyone agreed with you, you'd do very little learning.

I'm no expert, but all these distinctions between training styles don't really come into play until your at a point where you specialize your training. This point could be years away.

I can't imagine you'd find any trainer in any discipline who'd disagree with the type of diet you'd be recommended to follow here, nor the regimen of solid compound lifts coupled with an incremental progression of sets/weight.

Good luck wherever you go, and I'm sure your questions would be welcome here in the future.

Pete

But on average, wouldn't you think that somebody that trains specifically for strength and power wouldn't be stronger than the average trainer for muscle size and symmetry?


Is the issue the size and symmetry or the cutting down to low BF%?

Can you get down to low single digit BF% without giving up some of your max strength?

To the OP. Don't look at movie stars or other people who are in final competition mode. I don't know what BF% the average martial fighter stays at but you can look at some of the NFL averages.

http://www.csupomona.edu/~jvgrizzell/fitnessassessments/sortmpercentfat.pdf (http://www.csupomona.edu/%7Ejvgrizzell/fitnessassessments/sortmpercentfat.pdf)

Even DBs average over 10%. DBs I'm guessing hit less then the average in martial arts. No? Look at LBs averaging 15%.

Is the issue the size and symmetry or the cutting down to low BF%?


I think it's the training style first, but the dieting would hurt, too.

Bodybuilders as a whole don't train as much for speed and power of the big movers as say a powerlifter would, and if you don't train for it, you probably wouldn't excel.

It's all a function of training specifically to do a certain thing.

But on average, wouldn't you think that somebody that trains specifically for strength and power wouldn't be stronger than the average trainer for muscle size and symmetry?

I don't know. A lot of the stuff about rep ranges and loading schemes is old wives' tales. A lot of the way people train isn't that effectively focused. What will happen to the average guy who trains for X? He will get some "X" too, but he will probably get a lot of Y and Z as well.

So it really depends on the individual. Someone who can sprout muscle at the drop of a hat could end up as the stereotypic "weak" body builder, but some people have to hammer the muscle on with massive loads, and those guys will be strong.

I've changed my mind and I don't want to put on any muscle. I don't care if I am a Mesomorph or whatever. I was actually doing fine before, and I didn't have to do anything like count calories or whatever. I just lacked discipline.

I'm sorry I made all of you waste your time answering my questions. I do appreciate your help but I think I would be better off in other fields.

Can you really write us off so soon? How much time have you spent reading through the forums here?

No apology necessary by the way. I didn't see any accusations that you've wasted anyone's time and I doubt anyone feels as such. I'd offer the helpful respones you've received as evidence. I also didn't see any suggestions that you needed to start counting calories right away, so I'm not sure what that was in reference to.

I'd like to hear you describe what you think this site is all about, as I think you might be under some misconceptions about it, the vast majority of its members, and the discussions that take place here. There's a reason the name of this site is not "John Stone Bodybuilding." We're more about general fitness and well being than aspring to become stage ready bodybuilders. It's mostly about a group of people that want to increase their fitness knowledge, feel more confident in the gym, increase their strength, drop a few pounds of fat, gain a few pounds of muscle, feel better about their self image, and most importantly live a healthier lifestyle than they were previously. The "other fields" you think you'd be better off in could very well be at the core of this site's discussions.

For the list of members that truly do fit the classification of body builders, their insight and years of experience is benefitial to all of us and can still be applied even if our reasons for being in the gym are a little different than theirs.

Unless you're now saying you don't want to perform strength training of any kind, you have no interest in lifting weights, you don't have the least bit of interest in becoming stronger, and fitness discussions in general just don't interest you, I think we have something to offer. I'd encourage you to read through the forums and take a deeper look before deciding this site is not for you.

But on average, wouldn't you think that somebody that trains specifically for strength and power wouldn't be stronger than the average trainer for muscle size and symmetry?
I'm surprised you didn't point out that, despite Platz' phenomenal unrivaled "endurance" squatting, there's a good number of guys who can out squat him, which is, after all, what powerlifting is really about and the point you were originally trying to make.

Edit: Well, the point that zens' responded to.

I'm surprised you didn't point out that, despite Platz' phenomenal unrivaled "endurance" squatting, there's a good number of guys who can out squat him, which is, after all, what powerlifting is really about and the point you were originally trying to make.

You say that like you think that everyone who trains for powerlifting will get a 900 pound squat. I've spent the last few minutes checking over the recent results at the uspf (http://www.uspf.com/Results.htm) and there are very few squats above 800 pounds. At the nationals, it looks like there was one guy who squatted 900 pounds - 903.89 best.

I'll bet that not even one man in fifty who trains to squat as heavy as possible gets past Tom Platz' 1RM.

So is it the training that is the reason? Part of it, but it's not all of it. You have to have some genes working for you.

You say that like you think that everyone who trains for powerlifting will get a 900 pound squat. I've spent the last few minutes checking over the recent results at the uspf (http://www.uspf.com/Results.htm) and there are very few squats above 800 pounds. At the nationals, it looks like there was one guy who squatted 900 pounds - 903.89 best.

I'll bet that not even one man in fifty who trains to squat as heavy as possible gets past Tom Platz' 1RM.

So is it the training that is the reason? Part of it, but it's not all of it. You have to have some genes working for you.
I say that like we're discussing elite athletes and not just one powerlifting federation.

From Hatfield's mouth (bias?), we have Platz hitting 765 before the aforementioned squat set took place: http://www.drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1332

Fibo in Germany, around 1993. Over 10,000 people watching. Platz squatted with 7 plates...765. Kaz (linfting him from behind) helped him out of the hole, but the crowd didn't care. After all, Platz is of German heritage (so am I, but they didn't know that). I went rummaging around for a couple of 10 pound plates to add...got a bit nervous when I discovered that someone had forgotten to bring any small plates along. On went another 90 pounds. UGH! 855. Dug deeper than I ever had dug before! I made it! THAT was an unofficial WR!

I've never seen Platz' max single listed higher than "almost 800," which is what I'm basing my statement off of. Where'd you get 900 for a number?

I say that like we're discussing elite athletes and not just one powerlifting federation.

From Hatfield's mouth (bias?), we have Platz hitting 765 before the aforementioned squat set took place: http://www.drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1332



I've never seen Platz' max single listed higher than "almost 800," which is what I'm basing my statement off of. Where'd you get 900 for a number?

It's what comes after 800.

Franly you could say 700 pounds and I think less than one man in fifty who takes up power lifting will squat that. 700 pounds is a lot.

Franly you could say 700 pounds and I think less than one man in fifty who takes up power lifting will squat that. 700 pounds is a lot.
??? Obviously! :confused:

??? Obviously! :confused:

So my point is that when you get a guy like Platz who trains pretty far from the normal powerlifting approach, but who can do that, you see that the training is not as "sport specific" as some like to say. Plus, he's got some genes helping out. The training doesn't determine the outcome all by itself.

So when we ask whether the average guy will get stronger with body builder or power lifting training, I have to say that I think in most cases the genetics will have a big say. Things like whether you do 5x5 or 3x10 make less difference than whether that is a "real 5" or a "real 10". Advanced trainers may be more accurate about this, but most people do not have it dialed in to where that last rep is in good form and one additional rep is completely out of the question. So when someone tries to do 5x5 at their 5RM, they are quite possibly using their 6RM or 7RM. And for higher volume, there is a compensation - it's a little less likely to undershoot the weight, and because the set is longer, more fibers get recruited through fatigue. So unless there is a way to accurately select working weights, these two set structures will actually lead to more similar effects on the trainee than might be hoped for.

So my point is that when you get a guy like Platz who trains pretty far from the normal powerlifting approach, but who can do that, you see that the training is not as "sport specific" as some like to say. Plus, he's got some genes helping out. The training doesn't determine the outcome all by itself.

So when we ask whether the average guy will get stronger with body builder or power lifting training, I have to say that I think in most cases the genetics will have a big say. Things like whether you do 5x5 or 3x10 make less difference than whether that is a "real 5" or a "real 10". Advanced trainers may be more accurate about this, but most people do not have it dialed in to where that last rep is in good form and one additional rep is completely out of the question. So when someone tries to do 5x5 at their 5RM, they are quite possibly using their 6RM or 7RM. And for higher volume, there is a compensation - it's a little less likely to undershoot the weight, and because the set is longer, more fibers get recruited through fatigue. So unless there is a way to accurately select working weights, these two set structures will actually lead to more similar effects on the trainee than might be hoped for.
Aha. I agree.

I was just confused because were originally talking about elite bodybuilders and other athletes.

Alright thank you for all of the information. I still have many misconceptions I didn't know about.

But I'm confused on one thing that I want to know about THE MOST: Can Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefits to martial arts?

Honestly, I'm not one who hates Bodybuilding. As much as that may sound weird, but I would love to have well defined and muscular muscles. But I'm a fighter first and foremost. Maybe you answered this question for me already, maybe I missed it. But will Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefit to fighting?

But I'm confused on one thing that I want to know about THE MOST: Can Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefits to martial arts?

It can. But so can a lot of things.

Let me ask you a couple martial arts questions to see where you might benefit.

Do you fight with your hands or legs?

Is there full contact in your sport?

How long is a round? How long between? How many?

Am I right in assuming your martial art is not arm wrestling?

You mentioned Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is basically a body builder. How does he relate to your martial arts thinking?

Alright thank you for all of the information. I still have many misconceptions I didn't know about.

But I'm confused on one thing that I want to know about THE MOST: Can Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefits to martial arts?

Honestly, I'm not one who hates Bodybuilding. As much as that may sound weird, but I would love to have well defined and muscular muscles. But I'm a fighter first and foremost. Maybe you answered this question for me already, maybe I missed it. But will Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefit to fighting?
Bodybuilding is stepping on a stage and being judged in your undershorts. It will not give you an advantage and benefit to fighting.

However, a lower body fat (if you're carrying excess), increased muscularity, and, most importantly, increased strength and power as a result of weight-training will give you an advantage in fighting. You can look good as a fighter, even like a bodybuilder, but you don't have to body build to be so. Aesthetics will be a by-product of better performance.

Alright thank you for all of the information. I still have many misconceptions I didn't know about.

But I'm confused on one thing that I want to know about THE MOST: Can Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefits to martial arts?

Honestly, I'm not one who hates Bodybuilding. As much as that may sound weird, but I would love to have well defined and muscular muscles. But I'm a fighter first and foremost. Maybe you answered this question for me already, maybe I missed it. But will Bodybuilding give me an advantage and benefit to fighting?
Bodybuilding (defined as eating and training to get big, then dieting down to get ripped and stepping on stage)..... I doubt it.
But weightlifting?
Watch the video in this (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=37860&highlight=ufc) thread and you tell me.

It can. But so can a lot of things.

Let me ask you a couple martial arts questions to see where you might benefit.

Do you fight with your hands or legs?
Hands and legs....elbows and knees and shoulders, just about every body part. So I want to train all my body parts.

Is there full contact in your sport?
No none of the schools I trained in teach for sports. They were all traditional schools and they were very traditional. So no sports.

How long is a round? How long between? How many?
See above.

Am I right in assuming your martial art is not arm wrestling?
No, lol my martial art is not arm wrestling. Not sure if you know of these, but I've studied Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, 3 different branches of Karate, Boxing, Jujutsu and Xingyiquan. I've always been told that I should take care of my body, but I was more interested in technique back then. I have no problem with skill, just conditioning.


You mentioned Arnold Schwarzenegger. He is basically a body builder. How does he relate to your martial arts thinking?
I admire Arnold because of his accomplishments in bodybuilding and because of his work ethic. In the weight room at my Karate school there were pictures of Arnold and other bodybuilders so I grew to see him as an inspiration.

Ok I understand now. I know that I am not an experienced bodybuilder or weight lifter, but I've always thought about how muscle mass can be beneficial to a fighter. Here are a couple of my ideas that I've had:

Leverage - if a fighter is bigger in mass, maybe he could have better leverage in grappling. Also, wouldn't it make sense if the enemy couldn't put a full nelson or a choke hold on him because he is so big that his arms can't fit around him? I've seen that happen to Chris Masters.

Groundfighting - in any discipline, if you outweigh your opponent, wouldn't that be an advantage? Also the leverage involved.

Strength - pretty obvious

I'm guessing it's what COMES ALONG WITH BODYBUILDING that CAN be beneficial, IF I do it correctly.

Right now I want to study this whole subject more. I want to know more so I can save time in the future instead of making mistakes that I could have been aware of.

I'll follow all the advice you gave me and thanks for your help.

(Do you fight with your hands or legs?)
Hands and legs....elbows and knees and shoulders, just about every body part. So I want to train all my body parts.

(Is there full contact in your sport?)
No none of the schools I trained in teach for sports. They were all traditional schools and they were very traditional. So no sports.

(Am I right in assuming your martial art is not arm wrestling?)
No, lol my martial art is not arm wrestling.

1. As long as it isn't arm wrestling, then you fight with your legs. Get that straight now. Boxing, fencing, wu shu, karate, tae kwon do, you name it, you fight with your legs.

2. There is always full contact in your mind, even in sport. Otherwise you don't defend effectively.

3. You mention "conditioning" as a problem. No martial art I know of tolerates a lack of conditioning. Because if your opponent can wait until you are tired, then you are beaten already.

Here is the short advice:

Good bodybuilding training is not particularly suited to your goals, but it is not actually a bad match for your needs. The concentration on legs and back will do wonders for you at your age. I can say the same in favor of good Olympic weightlifting and also good powerlifting training. None of these are particularly for martial arts, but what you seem to need is common to them all.

Since you are 16 and male, really you don't have to be that choosy about your training. You are going to grow, you will get good endurance practically for free, and you will get faster, all so long as you stay active and don't starve yourself.

If I were in your situation, knowing what I know now? I would either start with powerlifting training or, if I had access to a good coach, Olympic weightlifting. Once you learn either of those basics, you will be well along the way. And frankly I think learning to squat and deadlift would be a good start for either of those.

Particular to martial arts though, you will also want to make sure that you don't only learn bilateral work. Unilateral and unstable work should be used along with the standard bilateral work.

Learn to lift safe, stick with it, and you will get a lot of benefit. In two or three years you will not need us to tell us why it was helpful.

I think the communications breakdown here comes with the word "bodybuilder".

I think what you are meaning is lifting weights in general. Bodybuildnig implies an asthetic goal, with functional strength as secondary. Training with weights toward athletic fuction may in the end help you look better, but that's the secondary benefit to the primary benefit of making you a better athlete.

And yes, martial arts can benefit from lifting weights for strength, power, and speed.

Leverage - if a fighter is bigger in mass, maybe he could have better leverage in grappling.

If a fighter is bigger in mass, than he cannot maneuver as well as an equally strong but lighter opponent. It depends on the kind of fight. If you are allowed to use force that incapacitates the opponent, then the big man has disadvantages that can outweigh the advantages. I don't care how big you are, if the opponent can kick through one of your knees, you are not gonna fight so good. When using many weapons, being a target is worse than being able to deliver more force - there are no weight classes in fencing; a big man with a spurting femoral artery is no more dangerous than a little man with that predicament.

But if you have to box the opponent or wrestle him, then mass is a huge advantage. This is why boxing and wrestling have weight classes. You can take the flyweight champion of the world and against even a club heaviweight he can be in deep trouble.

By the way - in any contest where mass is a disadvantage, leg strength and power is the cure that provides the mobility. And in any contest where mass is an advantage, then leg strength and power are needed to support it.

Funny how fighting comes down to legs every time.

If a fighter is bigger in mass, than he cannot maneuver as well as an equally strong but lighter opponent. It depends on the kind of fight. If you are allowed to use force that incapacitates the opponent, then the big man has disadvantages that can outweigh the advantages. I don't care how big you are, if the opponent can kick through one of your knees, you are not gonna fight so good. When using many weapons, being a target is worse than being able to deliver more force - there are no weight classes in fencing; a big man with a spurting femoral artery is no more dangerous than a little man with that predicament.

But if you have to box the opponent or wrestle him, then mass is a huge advantage. This is why boxing and wrestling have weight classes. You can take the flyweight champion of the world and against even a club heaviweight he can be in deep trouble.

By the way - in any contest where mass is a disadvantage, leg strength and power is the cure that provides the mobility. And in any contest where mass is an advantage, then leg strength and power are needed to support it.

Funny how fighting comes down to legs every time.
Infinite, keep in mind that, when zens mentions leg strength, he is not just talking about the obvious application -- kicking. Punching, plowing through an opponent, holding your ground, moving in any direction all comes back to the legs. You probably already have realized that, but it's worth pointing out. Strong legs and a strong core make a strong fighter in any discipline.

So, when you start training, although you certainly will want to strengthen your upper body, the real work is going to start with the legs. It's tempting to go straight to working the most visible muscles, the beach muscles, the ones bodybuilders are best known for (the chest and arms), but it's the other unseen ones -- legs, core, back -- that are going to help your performance the most.

Infinite, keep in mind that, when zens mentions leg strength, he is not just talking about the obvious application -- kicking. Punching, plowing through an opponent, holding your ground, moving in any direction all comes back to the legs. You probably already have realized that, but it's worth pointing out. Strong legs and a strong core make a strong fighter in any discipline.

Yes, and it's good that you emphasize the role of legs in punching. Even when using edged or pointed weapons, the legs add so much speed and power, and the torso needs to be strong to transmit that power.

There are two other reasons that strong legs are needed.

One is staying up. When you see a boxer beating the crap out of his opponent's body, he tries to weaken the opponent so he can knock him down. What makes that task harder is if the opponent is strong and muscular from the shoulders down to ground, and has a big cardio capacity to keep the muscles functioning.

The other is training. If you have massive leg and back strength, then you have developed a metabolism that can supply energy for power and strength in any muscle groups. It gets harder and harder for training to exhaust you. Long and heavy squat and deadlift sets will make a huge improvement in your ability to breathe in constrained or encumbered positions, or with your abdomen tightened to withstand blows. If the opponent can make it hard for you to breathe, he can stop you from using any of your skills. Nothing teaches breathing better than breathing while under a huge load.

It's tempting to go straight to working the most visible muscles, the beach muscles, the ones bodybuilders are best known for (the chest and arms), but it's the other unseen ones -- legs, core, back -- that are going to help your performance the most.

Oddly enough (and I think mastover will support this view), once you get much into bodybuilding, the legs and back are the work that separates the champions from the wannabes.

Hey all thanks for your help. I'm completely changed about bodybuilding. I see that I don't have to be muscle bound. I am definitely going to bodybuild.

Can you tell me more about conditioning? You know, how it effects my performance. The only thing I really know is punch kick and grapple. I do that well, but I need to work on my conditioning. You all are really big on conditioning, so can you tell me more about the importance of leg strength, cardiovascular health, etc.?

Also, I'm still searching stores for that book Starting Strength. In the meantime I have found these books, do you think they are good?:

Stuart McRobert - Weight Training Technique
Stuart McRobert - Beyond Brawn
Garret J. Braunreiter - Secrets to Peak Performance Fitness
Anthony Ellis - Secrets to Gaining Muscle Mass Fast
Tom Venuto - Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle

Do you think these are good books for me to read in the meantime?

Also, so is there really no difference to what bodytype you have? All bodytypes can gain muscle and lose fat right? Are there any websites with articles that provide great information on bodybuilding? I found one called Illpumpyouup.com is it good?

Welcome to the forums.:) I think you'll get some good information here. For your more specific questions, it might be better to start a new thread with a more descriptive title.

I've heard great reviews for Burn the Fat Feed the Muscle.

You don't necessarily need to browse more forums on "bodybuilding"; there are a variety of forums that talk about different styles of strength training, and I'd suggest you look for one most similar to the sports you are actively involved in. Maybe some of the links listed on this site will be more specific to your goals:
http://www.beastskills.com/index.htm

I agree with the others that strength training and conditioning by means of lifting weights sounds more inline with what you're after than true bodybuilding. There are aspects of bodybuilding that would be very counterproductive to your performance goals.

Infinite - There's still a hint of lifting weights = bodybuilding in your messages, which isn't always the case.

Take all the major sports at a professional or college level and the strength training that occurs in their offseason. You can be sure these athletes aren't busting their butt in the gym with the primary motivation of making their uniform fit better next season. Sure, there are going to be some positive physique changes that come along for the ride, but it's the improved performance on their playing field that they're really after. Looking better naked is just an added bonus.

Infinite - There's still a hint of lifting weights = bodybuilding in your messages, which isn't always the case.
I was trying to subtract here for a few moments until I figured out what you're saying. :lol:

Heh, Poor choice of combined punctuation and mathmatical symbols on my part. :blank: