A city-wide triathlon was held at my YMCA (male/female) on a recent Saturday..It was an amazing crowd of fit looking people..not a beer belly in sight..I started researching VO2 Max..I found this quote..

"VO2 Max is the ultimate fitness test"..

What do you think?

That's what I've heard.

I did a maximal VO2 max test a month ago. Had to quit after 10.5 minutes and I was sucking wind hard for five minutes afterwards, not to mention my calves felt like they were going to split in two and fall off my legs. :eek:

Even the fittest athletes in the world rarely make it beyond 15 minutes in the test.

A girl I tested with scored in the 99%th percentile (1% of people her age are fitter than she is). She couldn't make it past 14 minutes.

I scored about 50% for my age :o

A city-wide triathlon was held at my YMCA (male/female) on a recent Saturday..It was an amazing crowd of fit looking people..not a beer belly in sight..I started researching VO2 Max..I found this quote..

"VO2 Max is the ultimate fitness test"..

What do you think?

It's an important part, but it's not the whole deal. You also want a high lactate threshold, and then you want pretty high limit strength.

And don't worry about the beer belly. Body fat percentage is more cosmetic than important for fitness once you get down to about 13% bf for men. It's actually better for health not to get that low. With a good deal of activity, the obesity related risks (like type II diabetes, heart disease, etc.) go away before you get really lean. But there are other health risks which are increased as you get really lean. (Yes, you can be too thin.)

And don't worry about the beer belly. Body fat percentage is more cosmetic than important for fitness once you get down to about 13% bf for men. It's actually better for health not to get that low.

At which point do you consider too lean? Do you have any references?

At which point do you consider too lean? Do you have any references?

As usual, yes I have references, but it's might take a few minutes for me to dig them up. Note that the 13% is more necessary for some athletic things than for health.

I finished the test easily but my VO2 still stunk. I go the lazy mans route now. I use the polar monitor.

As usual, yes I have references, but it's might take a few minutes for me to dig them up.

Thanks! I'm genuinely interested.

And don't worry about the beer belly.

Didn't the waist/hip ratio study at least imply the opposite?

The location of fat around the belly was an issue. Even if the person was generally thin. So skinny fat was worse then many would believe.

Didn't the waist/hip ratio study at least imply the opposite?

The location of fat around the belly was an issue. Even if the person was generally thin. So skinny fat was worse then many would believe.

That's only a part of the story, from what I understand. It really has to do with the amount of visceral fat, not just belly fat (which could be subcutaneous).

The extreme case is sumo wrestlers. They have vast amounts of subcutaneous belly fat, but virtually no visceral fat, due to the incredible amount of exercise that they do. They end up having better blood work than a typical sedentary lean person.

I finished the test easily but my VO2 still stunk. I go the lazy mans route now. I use the polar monitor.

Did you do the sub-maximal VO2 max test?

Because by definition, there is no "finishing the test easily" with a maximal test.

You go until you are physically unable to continue.

Did you do the sub-maximal VO2 max test?

Because by definition, there is no "finishing the test easily" with a maximal test.

You go until you are physically unable to continue.

I did one that had a time limit and I was supposed to stay within a specific heart range for each range, it was a while ago so I might be remembering wrong. She did tell me very few people finished it so I can imagine how bad their VO2 was.

Thanks! I'm genuinely interested.

Yeah, so am I -- especially given that many people just assume that lower is always better. I've always read that for health, optimal bodyfat levels in men should be in the 12-15% range, but have never really looked at the actual studies.

A body fat chart is attached..

I like how they put 2% body fat in the "lean" category....when in actuality, it should be in the "dead" category.

A body fat chart is attached..

Is that the same Jackson Pollock...:rolleyes:

http://www.roland-collection.com/rolandcollection/images/stills/34-482B.gif

A body fat chart is attached..

That Jackson-Pollock stuff is a bit out of date. I'll try to get around to my reply in another couple hours.

VO2 max tests are a great way to measure fitness - but they must also be somewhat sports specific

If your sport involves running the test will be more accurate on a treadmill than an exercise bike, if you're a cyclist...well you get the picture. They did a comparison on elite level swimmers in a flume and on a bike and there was a large difference.

Anyway since I coach and do endurance sports I find VO2 max a great test, but you cannot define fitness with just one number. Wattage on a bike, strength in a gym, vertical jump, step tests, VO2 max...they all should be included depending on your sport.

On a side note I have coached a kid who had 3-4% body fat percentage and we (myself and his hockey coach) had to be very careful he didn’t drop any lower and he was constantly measuring himself. Even for elite swimmers they typically range 5-12% with 10% being considered about ideal.[/COLOR]

Good post Coach..hope to hear more from you..

As you know, there has been a anti-cardio movement in recent months..there are "no cardio,or very little" on JSF too..Since I was busy restoring some LBW lost through aging, I cut the cardio to 40 minutes/week..Got my intermediate weight training merit badge in July and the LBW restored...However, my CV fitness level was deteriorating..since about March..At my age it's always something..Zen is helping me with a project to restore my VO2 max..which I learned was only "fair" to begin with..(Zen's 55 is superior at his age..I am shooting for around 33)

There are also some "running is bad for your knees" opinions on JSF..I ran for years with no damage to knees or feet..IMO carrying too much BW is much harder on knees than running..

What is you opinion ? or others...:confused:

Edit: John Stone has been getting a lot of publicity lately...There are a lot of new beginners on here that want help with their fitness program..

As you know, there has been a anti-cardio movement in recent months..there are "no cardio,or very little" on JSF too..

There are also some "running is bad for your knees" opinions on JSF..I ran for years with no damage to knees or feet..IMO carrying too much BW is much harder on knees than running..

The "anti-cardio" people are usually not really anti-cardio. They just don't think of some of the things that they do as being "cardio". But some of the things they recommend (like 30 second rest between lifting sets) really makes lifting a form of cardio. And there is nothing at all wrong with that either - getting your lifting and cardio in at the same time makes all the sense in the world.

Running is bad for your knees unless you keep it under 45 miles a week and you don't weigh a lot. Carrying a lot of weight on the knees is not so good either, but if you don't run or jump on your knees with that weight it's a lot safer. Running roughly triples the force that weight puts on the knees. This is one of the reasons that low impact work like step-ups are normally preferred to running, except for people who need running for a sport-specific reason.

There are also some "running is bad for your knees" opinions on JSF..I ran for years with no damage to knees or feet..IMO carrying too much BW is much harder on knees than running..

Depends probably on the person, but my knees do NOT like me to run much, and I'm 6'1", 180 so am not carrying excessive weight.

People are made differently.

I also suspect mechanics have a lot to do with it. I'm sure mine are lacking :)

Even a lot of hockey players I know who grade out in the top 1% on the V02 test....keep a very strict limit on how much they run.

Personally, I would rather bike or row....as both do more to me than running ever will. And if you have access, swimming is by far the best exercise I have experienced.

Even a lot of hockey players I know who grade out in the top 1% on the V02 test....keep a very strict limit on how much they run.

I'm not surprised at all to hear that. If you're going to skate a lot you want to reduce the exposure of your knees to other sources of overuse.

all this v02 max is very interesting... what would just doing the step ups/rowing/bicycle for cardio and strength training the legs do for running once a week i wonder?

Dewfiend23..

I'm not the expert on VO2max...Zen and some other guys know a lot about it..but here's what I'm doing in regard to the once a week thing..

I'm doing 150 minutes a week on elliptical,bike,arc cross-trainer,treadmill,and stairmaster...I'm doing intervals on all with speed and resistance changes..I would not think that once a week training is going to do much for you,but Zen and those other guys will comment on this...:D

I started showing some endurance gains in week 4...the first 2 weeks kicked my butt...Main change so far is HR improvement during exercise and resting HR..as well as perceived difficulty..I'll know tomorrow if my upper body w/o has taken a hit..my lower body has not,as yet..but I am shorting both somewhat to keep something in the tank for the cardio..

Edit: The 150 minutes is total..I'm changing the machines a lot to hit things differently several times during the week..

jaybird,
I've got to do a 12:30 mile and a half (laugh, i did... it sounded so easy until i tried it) for a police agility exam in october... and i've been doing cardio for a little over a month, things are getting very easy and haven't tried the mile and a half since i started seriously training... but having read this post i'm wondering if i should keep the running to a minimum just for self testing or not. I do resistance on the legs and the bike/elliptical with resistance and as much speed as i can do while still being able to read the captions on the TV's. I also do the machines for the legs. oo what to do... what to do..:bang:

Good post dewfiend..

I know where you're coming from..:lol:

I was planning to do a 12 minute run in 4-5 days when I started this..I set a treadmill on 6 mph,flaked out in 5 minutes,and got myself a case of shin-splints..:D..I changed my strategy to a 8 week program..

Your approach to this seems good to me..change-ups and intervals speed up the progress..you are younger,so you can train harder than me on the intervals..I do 1 minute ups and 2 minutes downs..I do about 3 intervals in 20 minutes and you could do 6 maybe ?

On the bike,I increase resistance to off-saddle peddling level..

On the elliptical and crosstrainer,I speed up to max for 1 minute..

On the treadmill,I walk for 2 minutes and speed up to 5.4-6.2,but on it I just do 5 minutes...I'm just doing it once a week..I think you are planning to limit the running as well...

I don't have a time limit on my program like you...A lot of firefighters train at my YMCA..they do test runs all the time and a lot of crosstraining like I'm doing...they have a lot of tests like yours from time to time..Man,those guys stay in shape..:nod:..they all weight train too..

You've got time to be tuned up by Oct..I think the interval training will speed things up for you..We've just got to invest in "sweat equity.":D

Zen does not stretch but I do..pre/post workout..hamstrings,quads,lower back,shoulders,hips,abductors,and hip flexors..

:gl:

I'm not sure what this VO2Max test measures but I found out that it's quite easy to test oneself. (The distance you can run (in metres) in 12 minutes minus 555 then divide the answer by 45.) My VO2Max is about 50 in that case.

It seems to me if you are trying to improve the result it's the same as trying to become a champion runner.

In my manual on how to run a marathon it says a person who can run 3000 metres in 15 minutes is deemed fit.

But just because you can run 3 kms in 15 mins it doesn't mean you have the endurance to run 10 kms in an hour.

all this v02 max is very interesting... what would just doing the step ups/rowing/bicycle for cardio and strength training the legs do for running once a week i wonder?

It won't hurt.

I'm not sure what this VO2Max test measures but I found out that it's quite easy to test oneself. (The distance you can run (in metres) in 12 minutes minus 555 then divide the answer by 45.) My VO2Max is about 50 in that case.

It seems to me if you are trying to improve the result it's the same as trying to become a champion runner.

In my manual on how to run a marathon it says a person who can run 3000 metres in 15 minutes is deemed fit.

But just because you can run 3 kms in 15 mins it doesn't mean you have the endurance to run 10 kms in an hour.

You are talking about the Cooper Test (http://www.brianmac.co.uk/gentest.htm). It is an estimate of VO2max.

VO2max is good for a lot of things other than just running, and not just endurance sports. Depending on how they train, power lifters can have big VO2max values - Fred Hatfield was tested at 74, which is quite high.

VO2max is also used to predict whether people will survive difficult surgery or trauma.

VO2max is not precisely an endurance measure. It is supposed to be the maximum capacity of the aerobic metabolism.

The maximum level of exertion that you can sustain for a long time is more or less given by the lactate threshold, which is not quite the same as VO2max - it is always a lower level than VO2max. Having good endurance is pretty much the same as having a lactate threshold up close to your VO2max. Being able to perform well as an endurance athlete means having a high lactate threshold.