Hey JSF:

I'm around here often enough, you might have seen some of my posts, recipes, heck I've even given advice here and there where it's due. Or maybe you haven't, that's cool too. Because today, it's time to forget everything you know about me. It turns out I never had any idea what I was talking about. Today I submit myself to you all, head down, totally beaten by my lack of progress to make a humble plea for help and advice. We all have our ups and downs on this journey of fitness, and right now I'm fighting my Battle of the Bulge--things have become disheartening enough to make me call this whole thing into serious question for the first time since I started.

The details: I'm at the end of my rope. My latest six-month attempt to cut for the summer (I gave myself from December!!) has been nothing but one giant plateau, not only causing a substantial amount of frustration but also prompting a complete reassessment and re-evaluation of my complete results to date, which are starting to look similarly unimpressive given the amount of effort I've put into nutrition and training. It's a real shaky place I'm in these days, my self-loathing is getting to be overwhelming, and though I'm trying to be absolutely cool about it, and keep forging ahead, I feel like I'm very close to the breaking point.

The fundamental problem isn't that I haven't met a certain BF% goal or lost a certain amount of weight, or anything concrete. It's that I look terrible. Let me qualify that--I know it's a subjective thing, and I know I'm harder on myself than perhaps most people would be--but the fact is that I've never been overweight, just out of shape, and my issue is in my struggle to cross the line from being a thin guy who doesn't look in shape to being a thin guy who looks cut and does. To be honest, save for 2-3 post-newbie gain months immediately after getting on the wagon, I haven't satisfactorily cut down and gotten rid of my belly chub and double chin at any point during this past two years. And it's not as though I haven't been dedicated. I've had two, maybe three notable slip-up periods and aside from that, I'm not ashamed to say I've been very regimented. This past six months, I totally went for it, taking my dedication up to a new level--for the first time, completely did away with a weekly cheat day or even meal, and totally stopped drinking. I've pretty much been point this entire cut, which just makes it all the more frustrating to come to grips with the fact that I've accomplished nothing.

It's never been particularly important to me that I gain muscle, or get stronger, though I've done both over the course of these two years. All I want, all I've ever wanted, is to look and be lean, to have a flat stomach and a defined jawline. Having fun and enjoying life is a big priority for me, because I'm still in my twenties and want to make the most of them, so previously I've tried to strike the right balance between enjoyment and discipline. Having said that, I know it's easier to achieve that balance when you're where you want to be (maintaining), instead of still trying to get there (cutting). So this time, I decided to put all of my effort into discipline. Just to finally get there--so I can be done juggling.

As already stated, I haven't pulled it off, in fact, it seems like the more effort I put into eating and lifting right, the worse I look. Right now I can barely stand to look at myself in the mirror, it's so infuriating. At the start of this "cut", it was different--I'd see a subtle difference one week, get excited, watch it reverse the next week, shrug it off, no noticeable change the next week, etc., not really worrying because I knew that if I just kept with it, I'd eventually see some results! Fast forward six months and all of my patience is gone, if I can avoid thinking about it over the course of a day, that's about the only peace available to me. I do not look like someone who eats 100% clean, doesn't drink, and goes to the gym 6 days a week. I don't look like someone who puts any effort into being in shape. My George Lucas turkey neck sends out a clear signal to everyone, that I might as well be eating McDonalds and watching TV all day like every other skinny-fat guy in the universe. So frustrating!

Lately I've tried adding calories, as I've suspected that my metabolism is shot. But it's not really working either. I know "eating more" is the solution often recommended to people who are stuck, but does it really always solve the problem? I've been leaner with less LBM...sometimes I feel like my calories are too high for my size. I'm certainly never hungry.

So, for some specifics, this is what I'm eating now, for about 3-4 weeks so far, before that it had been less and less going back to Jan which was a Beverly diet that consisted of 5 no-carb meals a day and 2 days/wk that had an additional 6th carb-up meal.

BTW, I'm 5'11", 163lbs, at about 12-14% BF.

Mondays and Fridays: (High Carb)

Meal One:
5 egg whites
1 whole egg
4 strips turkey bacon
spinach
grapefruit
2 fish oil caps

Meal Two:
50g whey protein
2 tbsp natty PB

Meal Three:
200g chicken breast
2tsp olive oil
1-2 cups broccoli
2 fish oil caps
doing wsp

Meal Four:
Same as Meal 2.

Workout.

Meal Five:
1 cup oats
30g whey protein
1/2 cup skim milk

Meal Six:
350g sweet potato
150g chicken breast
2 fish oil caps

Ends up being ~2300kcal, 45P/35C/20F

Tuesday/Thursday/Sunday (No Carb)
Meal One:
5 egg whites
1 whole egg
4 strips turkey bacon
spinach
grapefruit
2 fish oil caps

Meal Two:
50g whey protein
2 tbsp natty PB

Meal Three:
200g chicken breast
2tsp olive oil
1-2 cups broccoli
2 fish oil caps
doing wsp

Meal Four:
Same as Meal 3.

HIIT workout (T/Th only)

Meal Five:
Same as Meal 2.

Total ~ 1750kcal, 50P/15C/35F


Wednesday and Saturday (Low Carb)

Meal One:
5 egg whites
1 whole egg
4 strips turkey bacon
spinach
grapefruit
2 fish oil caps

Meal Two:
50g whey protein
2 tbsp natty PB

Meal Three:
200g chicken breast
2tsp olive oil
1-2 cups broccoli
2 fish oil caps
doing wsp

Meal Four:
Same as Meal 3.

HIIT workout (Sat) or Lifting (Wed)

Meal Five:
6 egg whites
4 strips turkey bacon
spinach
grapefruit

Meal Six:
Same as Meal Two

Total ~2150 50P/20C/30F


As for working out, right now I'm on Week 4 of the Waterbury Summer Project. Before that, I was doing a home-made 3xweek full body routine, and before that, a 4-day lower/back/lower/chest split.

So it's like:

Monday: Lift/High Carb
Tuesday HIIT/No carb
Wednesday: Lift/Low Carb
Thursday HIIT/No Carb
Friday Lift/High Carb
Saturday HIIT/Low Carb
Sunday Off/No Carb

I'm not doing LISS now, as I understand it to be incompatible with WSP; but I was doing it up to 5 days a week previously.

-----

Apologies for the unashamed ranting and raving, like I said earlier, I usually try to keep these things to myself and sort them out, but right now, it's been building up to the point where I need (well, "would love" might be a better way to phrase it) some serious feedback, a new direction. Some way to get back to being confident that what I'm doing is right and purposeful and will end in results, hopefully, before too long, the results I've been trying for since Day 1 so I can chill out and take a more balanced approach. Until I get there, though, I will do whatever it takes, I can push myself harder, eat even more clean, make more trips to the gym, etc., I just have to start feeling like it's worth it, because as evidenced by the lack of evidence, so far, it hasn't been.

So, if you've read this far, I'd love to hear any advice or thoughts, I'm begging you for it really, at this point anything would help me out. Tell me to suck it up, quit sniveling, I'm not working hard enough, I've got it easy, etc., that's fine, I can take it! Whatever it is, if it's right, please give it to me!

Thanks for reading this guys. :o

hey mate,

Firstly, there are genral health aspects to eating and exercising so I am hoping you can acknowledge these.

I am faily new and am not too much of an expert but as I am 5 10.5" and started at 165lbs (and now down to 157 in four weeks) I can maybe give a few tips...

1) Maybe some elements of your diet are not working for you. I am finding that eating a lot of veggies and fruit with lean whote meat is quite helpful. I generally stay away from grains as I am trying to be 'ultra clean" and I find I bloat a little and get tired.

So, maybe a bit os a re-arrange will help, especialy as you are in a plateau, what harm can be done

2) Perhaps you need a month off or so, have a holiday or devote your time to something else as you certainly sound as though you need a re-charge

3) Your goals are certainly realistic so there is no reason why you cannot get there, the trick is working out what is the block. It is either something you are eating and/or you need to do more exercise

4) Chill! This is only 1 part of life!

Hope you get over the hill....

I agree with Garvic, don't let not seeing results discourage you from a healthy lifestyle. That is the problem with this country, everyone wants everything immediately and then most people give up when they face a little adversity in getting what they want. I hope your not one of those people. There are enough of them in this world already. You just need to tweak your diet and figure out what works best for you.

Some potential things you could try that have worked for me:

1) Add some liss in the AM, who cares if its only walking or a super slow jog, its not going to wipe you out for your weight or HIIT training in the afternoon.

2) I also carb cycle (our diets are very similar actually) but on my carb refeed days, I find it beneficial to limit my fat intake as much as possible. As in I dont take my fish oil caps or eat peanut butter (both of which are staples in my low carb days).

3) Lift heavy weights, this was one of my pitfalls for many years. I had the notion (like alot of people) that light lifting for countless reps would get me cut and lean. Not the case.

4) Maybe reduce your calories. I personally eat 1900-2200 and I outweigh you. I started my cut at 3000cals but to keep my body guessing I keep going lower once I feel my progress starts to plateau and my body has adjusted to it.

Best of luck.

dude

i think you're making your diet too crazy.

spend more time lifting heavy

sprint every day.

the fat will come off.

CONCEPT2 rower. nuff said.

The only thing I question in your diet is the turkey bacon. Not that turkey bacon is bad, but it does contain lots of sodium. If you're sensitive to salt ( I know I am) you may be holding on to water weight.

When was the last time you took some time off?

While the human body can be a wonderful machine, it does need time to repair itself for a few days occasionally. Depending on who you listen to, this time frame can be anywhere from a few days to 2 weeks. If you've had your nose to the grind stone since December, I'd say let the weights collect dust for a week and busy yourself with LISS once a day just so you're still in the game for activity, but your not pushing as hard.

Are you still making strength gains?

Are you changing your workouts occasionally? The body becomes really efficient when the same workout is used for months at a time.

Are you getting enough sleep? I get the feeling that you're not. This is obviously just a guess on my part.

Are you having any cheat days? If so, what do those look like.

Are you drinking enough water?

Taking supplements? If so, what ones? Everybody talks about taking Creatine, but for some people, all it does it make them look puffy so they get frustrated because they look like they are carrying around excessive amounts of water weight.

Sorry for the 20 questions, but that's all I can think of at the moment. First and foremost, if I were in your position, I'd take atleast a week off and use that time to reflect on what I've been doing and how I've been doing it. By taking a step back it will allow you to mentally rest so that you can look at things from a different perspective. The physical rest won't hurt you either.

Your diet looks really complicated. :eek: Where did you find it/how did you create it, and is it optimized for the activities that you're doing each of those days? I don't really see the typical pattern of high glycemic carbs after workouts that I usually see recommended to members. Is low/no carb typically recommended for HIIT days?

I like the idea of the calorie cycling, but, again, I'm not sure if you've optimized it to go along with the type of training you're doing on those days. (Sorry, i can't really be more specific about that; I can never remember the exact guidelines.)

Your high carb days sound like they're fairly close to your maintenance amount of calories, and I think it's a really good idea to take at least one day a week at or above maintenance calories. :nod:

But, honestly, your diet and exercise routine look so clean and consistent that I'm surprised that you're not making more progress than you are. :(

You're very very close to an ideal body composition, so it's understandable that your body wants to hold on to the extra fat it's carrying. From a health perspective, I'd give your physique top marks; it's unfortunate that you feel you don't measure up aesthetically.

The other thing I wonder is if whether your hormone levels may be abnormal. Carguy's transformation skyrocketed once he started monitoring this issue with his doctor.

I also really like all of Zilla's advice. :tu:

Low carbs doesn't seem to be working for you. Your high carb days are 35%? My low carb days are 50% :p I also eat a fair bit more then you averaging 2400-2500. I'm still dropping weight at that calorie level. Considering I'm down to 152 now I don't think you are neccasarily eating too much.

You have to figure out how your body reacts to things.

First off, have any recent pics? I remember 3 years ago, I created a thread bitching about how my arms looked terrible, and I didn't understand why with all my effort I couldn't get them defined. Well, I look back at the pics now (when I'm sane), and say "WTF was I thinking?!". No, I didn't look like Arnold, but my arms looked damn good. It was a very poor self image I had at the time due to an obsession with my body, and reaching "perfection".

Now, perhaps your disappointment is warranted. However, I'd like to see pics before I say one way or the other.

That said, there is absolutely no reason the WSP should not be leading to fat loss. I don't care who you are, you should see progress if you're following it to a 'T'. Are you?

Let's talk about your diet. What the hell? You have such a strict, regimented diet, I question if perhaps it's working against you. This may sound silly, I mean, a strict diet should lead to results, right? Well, I'm in the belief that if you've been so strict for so long, as you have, then perhaps your body (or even your mind) has adapted and needs a "shock" to continue the fat loss.

This may sound counterproductive, but I'd raise your calories to 2500 for about a week or two. Still eating clean, but increase carbs quite drastically. Then after the 7-14 days of higher calories, reduce them slowly, but not as much as you have been. 1700 calories for a guy with your stats at your age is just too low, IMO. I know it's not every day, but it's 3 days/week, and I don't like that.

Also, you're on WSP, I suggest you follow his diet advice. T-Dawg 2.0. Eat roughly 15x your body weight, with 100g carbs on lifting days (in breakfast, pre and post work out) and around 60-70g on off days. Then, one day per week, have a refeed day where you hit closer to 200+g. Each week or two, lower calories a bit until fat loss is around 1 lb. per week, then keep calories there until the fat stops coming off and repeat. I did this, and it worked great! I also avoided carbs after HIIT. If you'd like to see much more detail about my WSP experience, I point you to my journal in my sig.

Anyway, I remember in another thread you started I said I think you need to lighten up your outlook on fitness. This thread only reaffirms my initial assessment. You're taking this way too seriously for a guy your age, in your shape, who has intention of competing. I too was all about perfection at a time. It took me to a bad place emotionally I will never let myself go again. I too plateaued. Once I relaxed my diet and my mind, the progress came, even with a less strict regimen. I find that your mentality and happiness can play a large role in your success. Perhaps it's time you considered loosening up the regimen a bit and seeing where it takes you, since clearly this way isn't working the way you'd hoped. :tu:

:gl:

dude

i think you're making your diet too crazy.

spend more time lifting heavy

sprint every day.

the fat will come off.

CONCEPT2 rower. nuff said.

My diet's really that crazy? I know it's pretty clean, I've been doing it so long it doesn't feel too crazy anymore.

I'm lifting pretty heavy at least one day a week.

I've been meaning to get back into rowing though, you sprint and row every day?

The only thing I question in your diet is the turkey bacon. Not that turkey bacon is bad, but it does contain lots of sodium. If you're sensitive to salt ( I know I am) you may be holding on to water weight.

I did worry about this for a while, but I've been drinking so much water lately that I'm convinced it's not a *huge* issue.

When was the last time you took some time off?

I've taken two weeks off of lifting so far, once during Christmas and then another week halfway through March. I ate at maintenance both those weeks as well (it wasn't incredibly clean either).

Are you still making strength gains?

Yes, I'd say so, nothing earth-shattering but lifts are always going up and rest periods are always coming down.

Are you changing your workouts occasionally? The body becomes really efficient when the same workout is used for months at a time.

Yes, over this past six months I've used three different workout regimens, including the latest, WSP for four weeks so far.

Are you getting enough sleep? I get the feeling that you're not. This is obviously just a guess on my part.

:D Yes plenty.

Are you having any cheat days? If so, what do those look like.

Nope, during this cut for the first time I decided I didn't really need them. If I was dying for one I'd have one, but so far I've been happy without.

Are you drinking enough water?

Yes, 1-2 gallons a day.

Taking supplements? If so, what ones? Everybody talks about taking Creatine, but for some people, all it does it make them look puffy so they get frustrated because they look like they are carrying around excessive amounts of water weight.

Nope.

Sorry for the 20 questions, but that's all I can think of at the moment. First and foremost, if I were in your position, I'd take atleast a week off and use that time to reflect on what I've been doing and how I've been doing it. By taking a step back it will allow you to mentally rest so that you can look at things from a different perspective. The physical rest won't hurt you either.

It's a good idea...I have done that twice this past six months and maybe I'm due for another one. If I'm going about this the wrong way (and I must be), I'm totally at a loss as to what needs to be changed.

Your diet looks really complicated. :eek: Where did you find it/how did you create it, and is it optimized for the activities that you're doing each of those days? I don't really see the typical pattern of high glycemic carbs after workouts that I usually see recommended to members. Is low/no carb typically recommended for HIIT days?

I think the PWO shake is overrated. Low/no carb HIIT days on the other hand, I'm not so sure, I could very well be shooting myself in the foot there. My mentality this far has been, sure there's a time and place for carbs, but if you can get away without them (and then of course cycling them back in every couple days), even better. Again, maybe that's my problem.

But, honestly, your diet and exercise routine look so clean and consistent that I'm surprised that you're not making more progress than you are. :(

As am I, this is why I'm so frustrated! :mad: [/selfpitymode]

You're very very close to an ideal body composition, so it's understandable that your body wants to hold on to the extra fat it's carrying. From a health perspective, I'd give your physique top marks; it's unfortunate that you feel you don't measure up aesthetically.

That sounds so terrible doesn't it? :o I'm just trying to be honest with you guys. I do enjoy being strong and fit, it's great, but for me it's always been primarily about reaching (what I feel is) an aesthetic potential. Though I'm not trying to win any figure competitions, I just want to not look soft!

Low carbs doesn't seem to be working for you. Your high carb days are 35%? My low carb days are 50% :p I also eat a fair bit more then you averaging 2400-2500. I'm still dropping weight at that calorie level. Considering I'm down to 152 now I don't think you are neccasarily eating too much.

You have to figure out how your body reacts to things.

Your low-carb days are 50%?? You're insane man! :p

I'm inclined to take you up on that advice. How much activity are you doing (and not just exercise, how active are you)?

I don't know what else to tell you then. Sorry :(

The only other than I can suggest is that you go through this thread and maybe try some of the things others have suggested. While I personally see nothing wrong with your diet, you can certainly tinker with it.

The one thing I do agree with is that you need to relax. You're driving yourself crazy in a obsessive kind of way and that isn't healthy. You won't benefit from this type of behavior physically, emotionally or in a spiritual sense. If anything, you're going to wear yourself out, get sick then get discouraged. No point in going there if you're doing all the right things to begin with.

Jeremy posted this link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4390969855040062514 on another thread. I'm not to the point of what he is discussing in this audio piece, but I bookmarked it anyway for future reference. It's done by him and I think you could benefit from listening to it. I think it would be good for everybody to listen to, but I think it may help you put things into perspective alittle better.

Maybe Mastover, Swole or a number of others around here that always give good clean, solid advice will be able to help you further.

The constant cycling of carbs may be making your insulin levels oscillate too much, or worse - just stay high the entire time. The insulin sensitivity will blunt the effectiveness both of high carb days, as the extra carbs can easily turn to fat and low carb days (it will be hard for the body to transition off of carbs - what will most likely happen is increased glycogenolysis, since you aren't staying low carb enough to convince the body it's really in need of a change(which is usually accomplished by glycogen depletion). My advice to you is to try a CKD(cyclical ketogenic diet), or AD(anabolic diet), or UD 2.0(Ultimate Diet 2.0). These will keep you low carb long enough to reap the low carb benefits, and high carb long enough to get those ones too. CKD is probably your best bet, IMHO. This is all educated guessing on my part based off my own plateau experiences and my own study of science combined with what I've learned from others, so I'm not trying to act like a guru or anything...take it with a grain of salt.

First off, have any recent pics? I remember 3 years ago, I created a thread bitching about how my arms looked terrible, and I didn't understand why with all my effort I couldn't get them defined. Well, I look back at the pics now (when I'm sane), and say "WTF was I thinking?!". No, I didn't look like Arnold, but my arms looked damn good. It was a very poor self image I had at the time due to an obsession with my body, and reaching "perfection".

Now, perhaps your disappointment is warranted. However, I'd like to see pics before I say one way or the other.

I put one from last weekend at the bottom. I'm on the right. It does a great job of illustrating how I don't even approach looking like someone who puts effort into working out and eating clean.

That said, there is absolutely no reason the WSP should not be leading to fat loss. I don't care who you are, you should see progress if you're following it to a 'T'. Are you?

Totally, 100%, besides diet, which you address below...:cool:

This may sound counterproductive, but I'd raise your calories to 2500 for about a week or two. Still eating clean, but increase carbs quite drastically. Then after the 7-14 days of higher calories, reduce them slowly, but not as much as you have been. 1700 calories for a guy with your stats at your age is just too low, IMO. I know it's not every day, but it's 3 days/week, and I don't like that.

It does "sound" counterproductive, but I know that it might not actually be so. I've thought it bigtime. I guess you could lump me in with the people who are paranoid to increase calories. Multiply that by the fact that I don't even care about increasing my LBM. Maybe it's this paranoia that's prevented me from making any progress. Still, I can't help but notice for every post that's a reasoned explanation why increasing calories is the solution, I'll come across another equally convincing post by someone like JeremyLikness saying that the bottom line is that people overestimate their calorie requirements. Makes it tough to pick--naturally, being fine with skinnyhood, I err on the side of the latter.

Also, you're on WSP, I suggest you follow his diet advice. T-Dawg 2.0. Eat roughly 15x your body weight, with 100g carbs on lifting days (in breakfast, pre and post work out) and around 60-70g on off days. Then, one day per week, have a refeed day where you hit closer to 200+g. Each week or two, lower calories a bit until fat loss is around 1 lb. per week, then keep calories there until the fat stops coming off and repeat.

I know TDawg is slightly different, I guess I just wanted to stick with the structure I'd been using--it's more like 200g twice a week and 30-60g all the other days.

Anyway, I remember in another thread you started I said I think you need to lighten up your outlook on fitness. This thread only reaffirms my initial assessment. You're taking this way too seriously for a guy your age, in your shape, who has intention of competing. I too was all about perfection at a time. It took me to a bad place emotionally I will never let myself go again. I too plateaued. Once I relaxed my diet and my mind, the progress came, even with a less strict regimen. I find that your mentality and happiness can play a large role in your success. Perhaps it's time you considered loosening up the regimen a bit and seeing where it takes you, since clearly this way isn't working the way you'd hoped. :tu:

:gl:

:D I was waiting to hear you say this! I remember that thread also. In all seriousness though, I'm glad you say these kinds of things to me and guys like me. Perspective is crucial. This may not be believable, but I have loosened my stranglehold grip on discipline since. Although the numbers are still the same, the attitude is different, and I don't sweat it if I miss a meal or workout or cheat or whatever. I haven't really felt like doing any of those things in all honesty, but here and there, you know, and it doesn't bother me anymore.

The stress now I guess comes in part from the different perspective. Once I stepped back out of the tunnel-vision, just keep 100% to the plan, not happy now, maybe will be happy next week--I realized that A.) I'm not happy B.) I still don't look good (and this is not "perfection" we're talking about, look at the pic--in no way could one confuse that with someone who is regimented--the effort is invisible!) and C.) I'm been slaving away at this for 2 years. It's way past time for a change. I don't feel like giving up though; not after that much time and effort. It just heightens my desire to find the solution that will get me to my goal. It sounds like you guys all think I can't get any stricter, so the solution isn't in there. I guess I just need to eat more and eat more carbs and relax. Like you say, it can't possibly work any less well than what I'm doing now.

-----

Thanks guys for all your honest advice.

The constant cycling of carbs may be making your insulin levels oscillate too much, or worse - just stay high the entire time. The insulin sensitivity will blunt the effectiveness both of high carb days, as the extra carbs can easily turn to fat and low carb days (it will be hard for the body to transition off of carbs - what will most likely happen is increased glycogenolysis, since you aren't staying low carb enough to convince the body it's really in need of a change(which is usually accomplished by glycogen depletion). My advice to you is to try a CKD(cyclical ketogenic diet), or AD(anabolic diet), or UD 2.0(Ultimate Diet 2.0). These will keep you low carb long enough to reap the low carb benefits, and high carb long enough to get those ones too. CKD is probably your best bet, IMHO. This is all educated guessing on my part based off my own plateau experiences and my own study of science combined with what I've learned from others, so I'm not trying to act like a guru or anything...take it with a grain of salt.

Very interesting. I tried UD2.0 back in the day but it was way too intense for me. What would you consider to be a CKD--I thought that essentially was carb cycling?

Your low-carb days are 50%?? You're insane man! :p

I'm inclined to take you up on that advice. How much activity are you doing (and not just exercise, how active are you)?

Love my carbs :lol:

Not very. I work out for 75-80 minutes a day six days a week. According to the heart rate monitor I burn I guess on average 650 calories. Some times higher seldom lower.

Other then that the main thing is mowing the lawn about every ten days. That's almost a 1/4 acre of wandering so I guess it adds up but spring just started so that hasn't factored in before this month.

I'm also 43 so older then you.

dodus, you have a lot of dedication, but I'm going to be brutally honest with you- you are going to spin your wheels for a very long time because you have little lean body mass to work with. At 5'11, 160lbs, and 12-14% bf, you are quite lean already.

If you really, honestly want to drop more fat, you will have to drop your calories, because you are overshooting your requirements by quite a bit. Forget all these specialized diets, because they are too complicated for what you are going for. I would really keep your calories around 1500-1700 EVERYDAY, while lifting 3x/wk, cardio 5-6x/wk. Keep your protein high, carbs and fat moderate. It will suck, because you will be hungry, but that's really what it will take to diet down on your frame. I also wouldn't expect abs, if I were you, but when you hit 8-10%, I would concentrate on lifting heavy, and have a long term eating and lifting plan.

First off, have any recent pics? I remember 3 years ago, I created a thread bitching about how my arms looked terrible, and I didn't understand why with all my effort I couldn't get them defined. Well, I look back at the pics now (when I'm sane), and say "WTF was I thinking?!". No, I didn't look like Arnold, but my arms looked damn good. It was a very poor self image I had at the time due to an obsession with my body, and reaching "perfection".

Now, perhaps your disappointment is warranted. However, I'd like to see pics before I say one way or the other.


:gl:

Dodus,
I totally agree with Karatetricker about the pics :nod:. You could really have a misconception about your own body and the only way to find out is letting others give their opinion about it . If you decide to post some pics , I'll try to give my honest opinion as I always do , and I assure you the same for the rest of the guys that are trying to help too . Now , this will only help you determine and issue about misconception . We could really say , that you look good, but if you don't see it that way, you won't feel ok unless you reach your mental image of being OK .
:tu:

I put one from last weekend at the bottom. I'm on the right. It does a great job of illustrating how I don't even approach looking like someone who puts effort into working out and eating clean.

If I'm being completely honest, just judging by your face, it would not appear as though you're "in shape", in the sense you mean. That said, looking at your avatar, your face looks much more "defined". That said, anyone can have a bad picture that gives the illusion of being out of shape. I've had plenty myself. And, it's impossible to judge your body in that picture, so while I see what you're trying to say, that picture offers no concrete evidence of someone who is out of shape.

It does "sound" counterproductive, but I know that it might not actually be so. I've thought it bigtime. I guess you could lump me in with the people who are paranoid to increase calories. Multiply that by the fact that I don't even care about increasing my LBM. Maybe it's this paranoia that's prevented me from making any progress. Still, I can't help but notice for every post that's a reasoned explanation why increasing calories is the solution, I'll come across another equally convincing post by someone like JeremyLikness saying that the bottom line is that people overestimate their calorie requirements. Makes it tough to pick--naturally, being fine with skinnyhood, I err on the side of the latter.

Many people do overestimate their calories. However, I defy you to find me a post of his that claims everyone overestimes their calories. Just as many people overestimate, many people underestimate. I have a feeling you're in the latter camp. I did myself for at least a year, and spent a lot of time spinning my wheels. I now weigh almost 10-15 pounds less, yet eat 400-600 calories more on average.

And it does not make it tough to pick. It's all about trial and error. You've done the low calorie thing and according to you, got nowhere. I'd say it's time to try something new... Trust me, 1-2 weeks at 2500 calories will NOT, I repeat NOT, cause you to turn into some fat slob. After that, you'll have "reset" your metabolism in a sense, and then you can slowly, and I mean slowly taper off calories until you find the right number for you. Hell, for all you know, 2500 calories could be the right number for you. I wouldn't be surprised based on your stats and pics.

I know TDawg is slightly different, I guess I just wanted to stick with the structure I'd been using--it's more like 200g twice a week and 30-60g all the other days.

Does sticking with something you claim has offered no results make sense to you? Do yourself a favor, and try a new diet. I highly, highly recommend giving T-Dawg 2.0 a whirl.

:D I was waiting to hear you say this! I remember that thread also. In all seriousness though, I'm glad you say these kinds of things to me and guys like me. Perspective is crucial. This may not be believable, but I have loosened my stranglehold grip on discipline since. Although the numbers are still the same, the attitude is different, and I don't sweat it if I miss a meal or workout or cheat or whatever. I haven't really felt like doing any of those things in all honesty, but here and there, you know, and it doesn't bother me anymore.

Glad it's appreciated. I try to be the voice of reason sometimes around here. I hate seeing people suffer for no reason. Why be miserable when you don't have to be, ya know?


I couldn't tell from your post whether or not you are willing to take some of my advice. It may or may not work, but I highly suggest giving it a shot. It also seems I am not alone in my beliefs. If it doesn't work as you expected, no biggie, because apparently you're not going in the direction you had hoped right now anyway.

Cant judge on the Pic you posted. Sorry :(

If I'm being completely honest, just judging by your face, it would not appear as though you're "in shape", in the sense you mean. That said, looking at your avatar, your face looks much more "defined". That said, anyone can have a bad picture that gives the illusion of being out of shape. I've had plenty myself. And, it's impossible to judge your body in that picture, so while I see what you're trying to say, that picture offers no concrete evidence of someone who is out of shape.

My avatar came from a good day--so good I had to get my camera out and take a picture. An average day is somewhere in between the two pics, I'd imagine. My body's lean but a bit of a paunch in the stomach are, I'm sure you can imagine. :cool:


I couldn't tell from your post whether or not you are willing to take some of my advice. It may or may not work, but I highly suggest giving it a shot. It also seems I am not alone in my beliefs. If it doesn't work as you expected, no biggie, because apparently you're not going in the direction you had hoped right now anyway.

My apologies--I'm absolutely willing to take your advice. In fact, after getting a chance to reply to you and now seeing what you've written back, I'm out of reasons not to. I need to reset calories, switch to a steadier diet, and relax. Thanks man. :)

Very interesting. I tried UD2.0 back in the day but it was way too intense for me. What would you consider to be a CKD--I thought that essentially was carb cycling?

CKD is carb cycling, but the structure is dramatically different from what you were using. The CliffNotes version is this: 5-6 days low carb(65% fat, 25% protein, 5 or less % carbs), 1-2 days high carb low fat referred to as a 'carb-up' in which you replenish your glycogen.

CKD is carb cycling, but the structure is dramatically different from what you were using. The CliffNotes version is this: 5-6 days low carb(65% fat, 25% protein, 5 or less % carbs), 1-2 days high carb low fat referred to as a 'carb-up' in which you replenish your glycogen.

Are there any links to an example?

Yeah, you can read the stickies and even post questions about it here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Probably the friendliest and most helpful board on BB.com. I've been on it for a while, so if you have any questions that I can answer I'd be cool with that, too.

dodus, you have a lot of dedication, but I'm going to be brutally honest with you- you are going to spin your wheels for a very long time because you have little lean body mass to work with. At 5'11, 160lbs, and 12-14% bf, you are quite lean already.

This is something to consider - I think it's so much easier to reach low bf levels when you have a bit more lean mass to work with. I got dead stuck on my first attempt to go low in bf, and I attribute that to a too long period of dieting as well as a too low lean mass. You would still look very lean (or give an even leaner impression, because it changes your proportions) even if you added another 10 lbs of lean mass.

You also got some really great advice from Karatetricker. If I were you I would really take that into heart, especially the psychological parts of it

This is something to consider - I think it's so much easier to reach low bf levels when you have a bit more lean mass to work with. I got dead stuck on my first attempt to go low in bf, and I attribute that to a too long period of dieting as well as a too low lean mass. You would still look very lean (or give an even leaner impression, because it changes your proportions) even if you added another 10 lbs of lean mass.

You also got some really great advice from Karatetricker. If I were you I would really take that into heart, especially the psychological parts of it
I agree with your advice regarding the need to put on some muscle before cutting much more. I think by raising calories around maintenance, he can hope for some recomposition... gain muscle and lose fat. The muscle gain won't be significant, but enough to get him headed in the right direction without putting on any fat which comes with a full on bulk.

A full on bulk would not be such a bad idea either, but if he's already miserable with his bodyfat levels, I don't think putting on more fat is a good idea at the moment.

So if I'm 5'7 135lbs, 10-12% body fat...am I shooting myself in the foot by cutting down (or trying to) to 5-8%? I would start bulking..but my it's summer damnit!

Also...to get down that low should I stick to extremely healthy/wholegrain carbs and laying off the whole wheat bagels, bread, and wraps?

So if I'm 5'7 135lbs, 10-12% body fat...am I shooting myself in the foot by cutting down (or trying to) to 5-8%? I would start bulking..but my it's summer damnit!

Also...to get down that low should I stick to extremely healthy/wholegrain carbs and laying off the whole wheat bagels, bread, and wraps?

You would be pretty skinny.

You could try eating at a *slight* caloric deficit, and lifting heavy, doing some HIIT on your off days, and making sure your PWO nutrition was spot on.

You would be pretty skinny.

You could try eating at a *slight* caloric deficit, and lifting heavy, doing some HIIT on your off days, and making sure your PWO nutrition was spot on.

Most people are very surprised when I tell them what I weigh. Can you explain what you mean and critique my diet...it's in this thread:

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=36705

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Yeah, you can read the stickies and even post questions about it here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Probably the friendliest and most helpful board on BB.com. I've been on it for a while, so if you have any questions that I can answer I'd be cool with that, too.

Very cool. It looks like a solid approach. Maybe something to try once I'm done with WSP. Thanks! :)

Dodus

ive taken liek a month off of cutting and for may i'm pretty much just eating maintenance maybe stlightly over. trying to gain at most maybe 2.5 - 3 lbs and i seem to be on that way. i've picked up strength along the way like a son of a gun!!!!

Sometimes you have to let your body relax and not choke it off so bad.

then, after a nice month of new , re spike the body with a good cut, and hit it with lots of new high intensity cardio sessions. and HEAVY WEIGHTS at least 3 days a week, i like 5 days a week ;-)

it will work

This is something to consider - I think it's so much easier to reach low bf levels when you have a bit more lean mass to work with. I got dead stuck on my first attempt to go low in bf, and I attribute that to a too long period of dieting as well as a too low lean mass. You would still look very lean (or give an even leaner impression, because it changes your proportions) even if you added another 10 lbs of lean mass.

You also got some really great advice from Karatetricker. If I were you I would really take that into heart, especially the psychological parts of it

Done and done. I know that my life would be a whole lot easier with more LBM, hopefully we'll see what happens when I eat closer to maintenance. I've looked better than this, though, with less LBM to work with, which is why I'm so pissed off at being stuck myself. I'm hoping the problem has more to do with dieting for too long and at too low calorie levels.

I agree with your advice regarding the need to put on some muscle before cutting much more. I think by raising calories around maintenance, he can hope for some recomposition... gain muscle and lose fat. The muscle gain won't be significant, but enough to get him headed in the right direction without putting on any fat which comes with a full on bulk.

A full on bulk would not be such a bad idea either, but if he's already miserable with his bodyfat levels, I don't think putting on more fat is a good idea at the moment.

You hit the nail on the head. Next week I will give TDawg a shot and see if eating closer to maintenance for a while does the trick. Recomping would be totally sweet. If not, at least I'll be resetting to come back super-slowly, with tennisball's advice in mind that I might have to toss in a couple extra-low weeks towards the end.

I really appreciate all of your guys' advice. Yesterday when I posted I was so frustrated, now I feel like there's an obvious solution in front of me and all I have to do is break out of my pattern and take it. I'm very grateful for your attention! :bow:

Dodus

ive taken liek a month off of cutting and for may i'm pretty much just eating maintenance maybe stlightly over. trying to gain at most maybe 2.5 - 3 lbs and i seem to be on that way. i've picked up strength along the way like a son of a gun!!!!

Sometimes you have to let your body relax and not choke it off so bad.

then, after a nice month of new , re spike the body with a good cut, and hit it with lots of new high intensity cardio sessions. and HEAVY WEIGHTS at least 3 days a week, i like 5 days a week ;-)

it will work

Good deal man. I guess my only remaining sadness is that summer has made its way here and I mis-handled what should have been a successful cut, but what can you do? No time machine available to me, only choice is to start doing something that actually will work now.

You hit the nail on the head. Next week I will give TDawg a shot and see if eating closer to maintenance for a while does the trick. Recomping would be totally sweet. If not, at least I'll be resetting to come back super-slowly, with tennisball's advice in mind that I might have to toss in a couple extra-low weeks towards the end.

I really appreciate all of your guys' advice. Yesterday when I posted I was so frustrated, now I feel like there's an obvious solution in front of me and all I have to do is break out of my pattern and take it. I'm very grateful for your attention! :bow:

Great idea. Don't freak out though if you happen to put on a little fat to start with. Fix your post-workout nutrition too. I think doing that right is very important if you want to add muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Good luck - I know what it's like to be totally frustrated with lack of progress, and it's not easy to just turn things around. You're doing great asking for advice with an open mind and changing things around. With that mindset you're going to make it :tu:

Hello dodus.

My advice may be less common around here, but I think what you might need is lower calories. From my own experiences I've found that I need to go down closer to ~1500 calories a day on my cutting weeks to lose weight at
even a moderate (1+ lb/week) pace. Keep in mind I'm 20lbs heavier than you are.

It has not been tested, but I'm pretty sure I'll get stuck on 1,500 as well if I was not cycling my calories like a madman. 2 weeks cutting 1 week slow bulk/maintenance (1,500-1,600 on cutting weeks, 3,500~ on none cutting weeks | average around ~2,200
but I won't lose weight on standard 2,200/day diet)

I still agree you should certainly take a couple of weeks and preferably a month off before starting a new plan of action.
And maybe this means you won't have the body you want for this summer. Just keep in mind that even if it takes this whole summer to find a method that works for you, you will be able to use this knowledge in the many summers to come and thats more important.

BTW: Welcome to the club of those who have wasted the last 6 months with hardly any progress. :)

Shahar.

Hello dodus.

My advice may be less common around here, but I think what you might need is lower calories. From my own experiences I've found that I need to go down closer to ~1500 calories a day on my cutting weeks to lose weight at
even a moderate (1+ lb/week) pace. Keep in mind I'm 20lbs heavier than you are.

It has not been tested, but I'm pretty sure I'll get stuck on 1,500 as well if I was not cycling my calories like a madman. 2 weeks cutting 1 week slow bulk/maintenance (1,500-1,600 on cutting weeks, 3,500~ on none cutting weeks | average around ~2,200
but I won't lose weight on standard 2,200/day diet)

I still agree you should certainly take a couple of weeks and preferably a month off before starting a new plan of action.
And maybe this means you won't have the body you want for this summer. Just keep in mind that even if it takes this whole summer to find a method that works for you, you will be able to use this knowledge in the many summers to come and thats more important.

BTW: Welcome to the club of those who have wasted the last 6 months with hardly any progress. :)

Shahar.

That sounds more than reasonable. I think I'm going to take the 2-3 weeks off, and put together some kind of list of all of the rabbits I can pull out of my hat. When I start cutting again, it's going to be really slow, and I'll know what curveballs to throw in and when, in order to keep things moving when I stall. Not sure what my diet should look like right off the bat, I've stuck to pretty low-carb approaches in the past but perhaps it's time to try something else. Anyway, when I get towards the end I'll give the method you just described a go.

You're right about the summer thing--and I'd follow that up by it still sucks to have wasted so much time--but it looks like you got that covered to! It does make me feel a ton better, thanks man.

Black-Dawn, given your two weeks cutting/ one week maintaining approach, do you have any thoughts on what my calories would be during the maintenance week, being 20 pounds lighter? Something like 2500kcal seems like it would be a good place to start, would that be too low to reap the rewards of that kind of cycle?

2,500 seems like a good place to start. (~bwx15) You can probably
go higher if you're trying to reap some recomposition benefits.

Check Lyle Mcdonald's site @ www.bodyrecomposition.com (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com)
Look for threads on Intermediate fasting(fast 16 hours, eat in 8 hours window. Repeat) on the forums there.
Its what I use to get my calories to very low levels.
Maybe it will be useful for you as well.

Shahar.