Any Opinions on what are some good supplement to take?

After, and only after, getting your diet in order I would suggest looking into a multi vitamin and possibly a protein powder to start.

After, and only after, getting your diet in order I would suggest looking into a multi vitamin and possibly a protein powder to start.
What he said ^
The big thing though is getting propper nutrition from real food though, they are called "supplements" for a reason, theres no replacement for a good diet. :tucool:


Chris.

Unlike what dluc said, I suggest you get a good multi and some fish oil even before you get your diet in order. I see these as essential for good health. Also, protein powder if you find it difficult to get protein at certain times.

Unlike what dluc said, I suggest you get a good multi and some fish oil even before you get your diet in order. I see these as essential for good health. Also, protein powder if you find it difficult to get protein at certain times.

I should have mentioned I don't consider oils supplements anymore:doh:They've just become such a regular part of my routine.

On top of a good diet, I’d recommend:

- Protein
- Creatine

I would not recommend a multivitamin, just because I don’t think it’s needed and because I don’t think it’s beneficial. I’ve tried training while using them and while not using them and have never seen a difference. Plus I’ve gotten headaches taking certain brands, so I actually wonder if it’s healthy to intake large amount of so many vitamins.

I dug up some studies real quick to see if I could find anything to back up my point and found two interesting articles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1602947&dopt=Abstract
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/content/mk850q100876m7r4/

One says multi’s aren’t beneficial for training, and the other says they may help in reducing fatigue after a workout. I used http://scholar.google.com/ to find them, so if you're interested, you can search for more.

Depending on your goals, there are other supplements you can take, but protein and creatine are the basics.

On top of a good diet, I’d recommend:

- Protein
- Creatine

I would not recommend a multivitamin, just because I don’t think it’s needed and because I don’t think it’s beneficial. I’ve tried training while using them and while not using them and have never seen a difference. Plus I’ve gotten headaches taking certain brands, so I actually wonder if it’s healthy to intake large amount of so many vitamins.

I dug up some studies real quick to see if I could find anything to back up my point and found two interesting articles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1602947&dopt=Abstract
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/content/mk850q100876m7r4/

One says multi’s aren’t beneficial for training, and the other says they may help in reducing fatigue after a workout. I used http://scholar.google.com/ to find them, so if you're interested, you can search for more.

Depending on your goals, there are other supplements you can take, but protein and creatine are the basics.

Bollucks.

Multivitamin, fish oil caps, and a quality protein. Leave the other stuff alone until you figure out your diet.

Bollucks.

Multivitamin, fish oil caps, and a quality protein. Leave the other stuff alone until you figure out your diet.

Can you back yourself up though? I always see people recommending multivitamins and fish oil, yet I never see them backing it up with anything. Just because vitamins are good for you, doesn't mean taking them in large doses is good for you or that it is beneficial to training.

Can you back yourself up though? I always see people recommending multivitamins and fish oil, yet I never see them backing it up with anything. Just because vitamins are good for you, doesn't mean taking them in large doses is good for you or that it is beneficial to training.

They are essential for health. It's almost impossible to get optimal nutrients through diet alone these days and multivitamin along with fish oil compensates for it. Also, with training, your body needs more nutrients than the average folks. Your position on this matter is that you never feel the difference. Well, multi and fish oil are supplements, not drugs, so you're not supposed to feel any difference, although I do sometimes when I don't take my multi. Oh yea, with fish oil, I did notice some increase in calories needed for me to gain weight.

They are essential for health. It's almost impossible to get optimal nutrients through diet alone these days and multivitamin along with fish oil compensates for it. Also, with training, your body needs more nutrients than the average folks. Your position on this matter is that you never feel the difference. Well, multi and fish oil are supplements, not drugs, so you're not supposed to feel any difference, although I do sometimes when I don't take my multi. Oh yea, with fish oil, I did notice some increase in calories needed for me to gain weight.

I don't really know anything about fish oil, so I can't really give much of an opinion on it.

As for a multivitamin, not only did I not feel a difference, I didn't notice any strength change in my logs when I discontinued it. So I have to wonder to myself why I would ever take it again. Plus, I'm curious as to how much of those vitamins are actually pissed out right after you take it. A large dose of lots of different vitamins at once, to me at least, just doesn’t seem justified unless there's a proven benefit.

I can see your point in supplementing with them if you're diet isn't that great. But if someone feels they're eating healthy, I don't see a reason to take them.

I don't really know anything about fish oil, so I can't really give much of an opinion on it.

As for a multivitamin, not only did I not feel a difference, I didn't notice any strength change in my logs when I discontinued it. So I have to wonder to myself why I would ever take it again. Plus, I'm curious as to how much of those vitamins are actually pissed out right after you take it. A large dose of lots of different vitamins at once, to me at least, just doesn’t seem justified unless there's a proven benefit.

I can see your point in supplementing with them if you're diet isn't that great. But if someone feels they're eating healthy, I don't see a reason to take them.

As I said, even if you do eat healthy, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to get all of the nutrients that you need due to soil deficiencies and etc. What a multi does is fill in the nutritional gaps that you may have. Sure, some of those nutrients will probably get pissed out of your system but at least I'm making sure that I do not have any nutritional gaps. Nutrition is considered by many here the most important aspect in whether you want to lose fat, gain muscle, etc. and that's where a quality multi comes in. You said you did not see any difference in results with a multi or not. Multi's are not supposed to burn fat, build muscle, etc. They are just insurance to make sure that you get all the nutrients that your body needs. Plus, they are one of the cheapest supplements out there. How many different multi have you tried??? For me, common over the counter multis didn't have any effect on me. Even when I went off them, I didn't feel any difference. When I tried AST Multi Pro 32x, I didn't feel the difference either. But then when I went off them, I felt lethargic. For me, I would rather spend money on a good multi than I would on protein powder, creatine, or whatever.

Supplements I use are:-

Creatine
Protein powder (3 types:- hemp protein, whey with milk and egg casein matrix, whey protein with Creatine in it).
Arginine
L-Glutamine
BCAA's
Creatine
Testosterogain (on a carefully cycled basis).
Gluco/Chon/MSM
Multi-Vite
Greens
Lecithin
Extra zinc
" " Calcium
garlic oil
Wild Fish Oils


But I'm over 25. If I was under 25 I don't think I'd bother with Creatine or testo-boost.

As I said, even if you do eat healthy, it would be very difficult, if not impossible to get all of the nutrients that you need due to soil deficiencies and etc. What a multi does is fill in the nutritional gaps that you may have. Sure, some of those nutrients will probably get pissed out of your system but at least I'm making sure that I do not have any nutritional gaps. Nutrition is considered by many here the most important aspect in whether you want to lose fat, gain muscle, etc. and that's where a quality multi comes in. You said you did not see any difference in results with a multi or not. Multi's are not supposed to burn fat, build muscle, etc. They are just insurance to make sure that you get all the nutrients that your body needs. Plus, they are one of the cheapest supplements out there. How many different multi have you tried??? For me, common over the counter multis didn't have any effect on me. Even when I went off them, I didn't feel any difference. When I tried AST Multi Pro 32x, I didn't feel the difference either. But then when I went off them, I felt lethargic. For me, I would rather spend money on a good multi than I would on protein powder, creatine, or whatever.

I think you make some reasonable points, however, I still don't think I like the idea of taking in large amounts of vitamins. Especially since I haven't seen anything to show that it actually improves a normal person's health or well being.

I also am still sepectical about how healthy it is to intake so many vitamins. Sure, you don't miss anything, but is a 5000% of your daily dosage of B6 really nescessary (just using this as an example - it's what's on my multivitamin container in front of me)? Plus, some of these things contain iron, which is not something you want to get a whole lot of.

If one decides to take multivitamins, I'll agree with your point that it's good to go with a quality brand. I saw some news story about how some of these things contained too much iron, but I couldn't find it while googling. I did find this though (which basically says one should go with a trusted brand - since these things don't always contain what they say they contain):

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_255/ai_n6211926

The problem with the idea that you can fix diet issues by taking pills is nobody really knows if pill form is equal to the stuff in food.

How often do studies claim some thing in food is good for you? Is it really the suggested item? Or is it the mix?

Human bodies didn't develop to live off pills.

The other issue is for most guys we can eat so much that getting enough nutrients really shouldn't be an issue. It's one thing if you are a 100lb woman you might be eating 1200 calories. But to say you can't get all you need from food when many of us have maintance levels close to 3000 calories is tough to accept.

Can you back yourself up though? I always see people recommending multivitamins and fish oil, yet I never see them backing it up with anything. Just because vitamins are good for you, doesn't mean taking them in large doses is good for you or that it is beneficial to training.

Go over to pubmed and type in "Omega 3" or even "fish oil" and see what you find.

Fish oils with omega 3s and DHA/EPA have tons of studies showing positive benefits on everything from inflammation, metabolism, and cardiovascular health. Some work is even showing them to be more effective that statins.

As far as vitamins go, do a check on PubMed regarding B1 (thiamine) in high doses and recovery. That is one example.

I recommend the following as staples for any resistance trained individual:

Nitrean or Opticen
Creatine 500
Multi-Plus
ETS

As far as vitamins go, do a check on PubMed regarding B1 (thiamine) in high doses and recovery. That is one example.

I recommend the following as staples for any resistance trained individual:

Nitrean or Opticen
Creatine 500
Multi-Plus
ETS

I'll just agree to disagree with you about the multivitamins. If thiamine can aid in recovery, that may explain why some of the people in the second study I posted were less fatigued, however, that wasn't something I experienced while using a multivitamin.

I'll just agree to disagree with you about the multivitamins. If thiamine can aid in recovery, that may explain why some of the people in the second study I posted were less fatigued, however, that wasn't something I experienced while using a multivitamin.

PAT, you're approaching this wrong.

Multivitamins were not developed to aid in the training of bodybuilders. They're designed to make sure you get enough of all the essential vitamins and minerals that you NEED in order to be healthy. No one is sitting here saying that a certain multivitamin will give you "amazing strength gains" or anything like that.

If you have a good diet then odds are you probably won't notice a much of any difference in your training logs by changing multivitamins or removing them altogether.

What you WILL notice is that if you are lacking in a particular nutrient, then OVER TIME (meaning, not a couple of days or a week) you will slowly start to develop issues. For example, if your iron levels are low you will start to feel a little fatigued, have lower energy, and in some cases bruise easier. Now, this isn't an all-of-a-sudden thing. If it was, most people who have an iron-deficiency wouldn't be standing around and would be going to their doctors.

Nutritional deficiences (or conversely, toxic levels of something) tend to build up gradually, and therefore are often hard to notice immediately.

Also, the validity of multivitamins really isn't up for debate. You can go down the list of ingredients in most major multivitamins and virtually no one in the scientific community will tell you you don't need those things. Now, can you get all of that from diet? Potentially, but it's extremely difficult to do, and I guarantee you that you don't get everything you need from your own personal diet.

Moreover, there is a huge gap between the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) of a nutrient and the OPTIMAL amount of a nutrient. You might very well be getting enough Vitamin C to not die of scurvy, but are you getting the amount that most benefits your overall health (whether it affects your training in a measurable way or not)? That's the point of multivitamins. A GOOD multivitamin is proportioned with the right amounts of various nutrients to insure as much as possible that you're getting exactly what you need for optimum health when combined with a decent diet.

Now, you can certainly go find some studies that show that a specific multivitamin, such as cheaper stuff like Centrum, is either low-quality, impure, poorly absorbed, or whatnot, but the idea that you simply shouldn't take vitamins is so beyond absurd that I feel strange even dignifying it with an argument.

Oh, and to the earlier poster who asked about how well pills absorb, that was an excellent question. All supplements, drugs, and nutrients absorb differently. The mechanisms for uptake of various things are not all placed identically, and therefore the supplement must be designed differently.

In terms of multivitamins, pretty much all the absorption of those vitamins and minerals is going to occur in the small intestine, which means you need something that will survive the environment of the stomach but which will not hold up so well that it simply passes straight through you (/points at Centrum). This is why tablets, rather than gelcaps or liquicaps, are the preferred configuration for vitamins. Even then, though, they have to be precisely designed to break down at the exact desired point in our digestive systems, and how well they do this varies considerably depending on which multi you buy.

As for the whole "we didn't evolve to absorb pills" remark, we evolved to absorb particular substances. If something is molecularly the same, then it's the same thing. If it's synthetically derived then that's irrelevant. Your body doesn't know the difference. However, synthetic supplements are often designed or configured in a manner that interferes with normal absorption, and that is an issue. For this reason, some multivitamins are "food-based" and suspend their content in some sort of food-based matrix that, at least theoretically, increases absorption.

My only point is that this is a complex issue that cannot simply be reduced to "multivitamins are worthless" or "multivitamins rock." The concept is sound, but not all of them are created equal, which is true for virtually any supplement. We all know some bodybuilding supplements that are complete crap, and others that are awesome. Multis are no different.

I suggest doing some serious research and looking up any of the various independent lab tests that have been done to verify the purity, label accuracy (since they don't actually have to have what's on the label like drugs do), and absorption quality as well as additional research to determine the ideal values of specific vitamins and minerals for your specific lifestyle. That should lead you to the multi that is right for you.

And to PAT and anyone else, if you're going to try a multivitamin and expect to "feel a difference," then you're approaching things incorrectly. It's not like throwing back some Arginine or ALCAR or something where you can feel it working during its short duration, and many of the multivitamins that people say they can "feel" are simply ones that threw in a crapload of B-vitamins so you'd get that B-vitamin rush and think they're product was awesome. Granted, most good multis will have lots of B-vitamins, but that's also a trick employed by some shadier ones too, so you can't trust your immediate physical reactions.

... but the idea that you simply shouldn't take vitamins is so beyond absurd that I feel strange even dignifying it with an argument. ...

I don't believe one shouldn't have vitamins. I just question whether or not it is healthy or beneficial to get them in pill form in a large dose. I also believe it is important to question everything and to know why you're taking certain supplements. Just because something seems like it should be beneficial, doesn't mean that it is. I like the point Robert2006 made. We don't know what particular mix makes these things work best. Supplementing with B6 alone may be different than supplementing it with a bunch of other vitamins or with getting it inside of a particular food. It may also be best to have a lot of smaller doses rather than a large dose.