So, I've never trained for max strength before on the standard deadlift. I worked up to a 1RM yesterday, and it was a sorry showing at 285# (8x135#, 6x225#, 3x245#, 2x265#, 1x275#, 1x285#). I have only been training my posterior chain with RDLs and GMs at a relatively lighter weight for reps. (I'm 5'11, 170lbs)

What would be a good progression to follow to have consistent gains, while working this into a 3x/wk fullbody routine?

I know chico has some experience with this (you beast), so maybe he and some others can chime in and let me know. I'm aware this is a singles-type exercise, but since no one I train with at my gym (or anyone, for that matter) actually does heavy deadlifting, I really have no idea how I should be approaching this.

I think the most effective way to increase the deadlift is to be doing multiple heavy triples and singles for multiple sets in a session. A 3x week fullbody isn't the best for this, but by modifying one of the days you can probably still accumulate most of the benefits.

Perhaps on your Friday (I assume M-W-F, so 72 hours between F and M lifting sessions) you could do something like:

Deadlifts: Work up to several sets of heavy triples or heavy singles (your choice).
Quad-dominant movement
Some sort of heavy row
Pressing movements

The most important part is to get the multiple heavy deadlift sets in. I don't know what else you'd do in your workout if you still intend to do fullbody work twice more that week, so I suggest just the basic compounds. I wouldn't skip the row movement though, those really help with deads.

The reason I say that fullbody isn't optimal for going for achieving heavy singles and triples is because low-rep work is more a function of your nervous system ability. The best way to increase this is to lift heavy weights for low reps and repeated sets. Fullbody HIT is the opposite: High reps for single sets. I'm not saying that high volume wont get you stronger (Zen's doing very well with high volume), but rather the HIT style doesn't put sufficient demand on the nervous system to demand the neurological adaptation (based mainly on personal experience and empirical observations). I did HIT a few years back. I got good at doing high rep work, but I didn't see much increase in absolute strength at lower rep ranges. When I started doing upper/lower split work in the multiple-set , low rep range, I noticed a fairly significant increase is my strength.

Assuming that you are already quite competent with the lift in regards to form and cues and that you can pull well in that respect anytime you perform the lift (not hard to do, IME):

1) Improve your squat.
2) Improve your RDL or good morning, depending on how you're built. (e.g. I use RDL, while betastas would likely be better off with GM.)
3) Strengthen your upper back with various rows.
4) (Optional) Throw in heavy rack pulls and Olympic pulls or speed pulls on occasion.

If you do all of that, your deadlift will go up. Max it every month or two and do a bunch of back-off singles or doubles afterwards.

Check out: http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm

Assuming that you are already quite competent with the lift in regards to form and cues and that you can pull well in that respect anytime you perform the lift (not hard to do, IME):

1) Improve your squat.
2) Improve your RDL or good morning, depending on how you're built. (e.g. I use RDL, while betastas would likely be better off with GM.)
3) Strengthen your upper back with various rows.
4) (Optional) Throw in heavy rack pulls and Olympic pulls or speed pulls on occasion.

If you do all of that, your deadlift will go up. Max it every month or two and do a bunch of back-off singles or doubles afterwards.

Check out: http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm

Great article, and good advice.

I'm definitely not doing HIT, but rather a basic compound movement routine, 3x/wk, with varying rep/set schemes, BSQ 1x/wk, DL 1x, and FSQ/GM on fridays. Upper body with mostly rowing, pullups, dips, and benching, with some shoulder and trap work thrown in.

Looks like I'll start adding Olympic lift progressions (something I've been considering for some time).

Thanks!

I think you train similarly to the way I've always trained (Watebury style, if there's a description). My dead makes good progress rotating various posterior chain exercises, even when I'm not doing deads. RDLs, GMs, single legged deads, snatch grip deads off blocks, etc.

Maybe do 8x3s for deads once a week, then the other two sessions include other posterior chain work and some form of squat?

I also like chic's suggestion of Olympic pulls.

I think I must be made for deads more than I'm cut out for squats. Either that, or I've got some form problem with squats I just don't recognize. My deads greatly outpace my squats. My max dead is probably more than 150 lbs higher than my squat max. :(

The reason I say that fullbody isn't optimal for going for achieving heavy singles and triples is because low-rep work is more a function of your nervous system ability. The best way to increase this is to lift heavy weights for low reps and repeated sets. Fullbody HIT is the opposite: High reps for single sets. I'm not saying that high volume wont get you stronger (Zen's doing very well with high volume), but rather the HIT style doesn't put sufficient demand on the nervous system to demand the neurological adaptation (based mainly on personal experience and empirical observations). I did HIT a few years back. I got good at doing high rep work, but I didn't see much increase in absolute strength at lower rep ranges. When I started doing upper/lower split work in the multiple-set , low rep range, I noticed a fairly significant increase is my strength.

I'm not sure full body is optimal or not, but there are definitely ways to make it more strength focused. All full body styles of lifting aren't like HIT. I couldn't imagine doing HIT, but I make good progress on full body, using all kinds of set ranges.

My favorite way to structure a program is to use low reps the first day of the week, medium the second, then medium-high the third. So maybe 3x5, 8x3, 4x6 for M, 4x8, 3x9 W, 3x12 F. Probably 5 or 6 exercises per workout spread over multiple muscle groups.

I'm nowhere in your strength league, though :)

I think I must be made for deads more than I'm cut out for squats. Either that, or I've got some form problem with squats I just don't recognize. My deads greatly outpace my squats. My max dead is probably more than 150 lbs higher than my squat max. :(
I have around a 100 lb difference. That's Olympic ATG BSQ vs. conventional powerlifting DL though -- I could probably squat more if I switched to a powerlifting squat.

150 lbs does sound a bit high, but who knows?

I have around a 100 lb difference. That's Olympic ATG BSQ vs. conventional powerlifting DL though -- I could probably squat more if I switched to a powerlifting squat.

150 lbs does sound a bit high, but who knows?

I'd be interested to see the difference. You should try it out the next time you max (or maybe after your current cycle).

I think the most effective way to increase the deadlift is to be doing multiple heavy triples and singles for multiple sets in a session..... (Zen's doing very well with high volume),

I'm going to say that heavy triples and singles for multiple sets has been a big factor in increasing my deadlift. About a year ago, maybe a bit more, I couldn't pull 275#. Now I have built a base of high volume medium weight sets, so the deadlift responded well when I decided to go heavy. I maintain my high volume per workout, but I'm doing two or three workouts a week.

Another thing that I would say has been good is occasional heavy hamstring beatdowns on top of the constant backdrop of posterior chain. I also do unilateral work to make sure neither side is lagging.

But the main point is I agree with the heavy triples, and singles. I also think the triples are where the bang for the buck is between those two.

Maybe do 8x3s for deads once a week, then the other two sessions include other posterior chain work and some form of squat?

Sounds good to me.

Great advice. I need to start doing more 8x3s. I also feel like, after having fallen off the wagon for so long (that's why I hadn't been posting for a while), that I need to rebuild my base again.

When you work up to heavy singles - I noticed in chico's journal that he had a final 'set' of 6x1 - how are these performed? How much rest between each pull?

Great advice. I need to start doing more 8x3s. I also feel like, after having fallen off the wagon for so long (that's why I hadn't been posting for a while), that I need to rebuild my base again.

When you work up to heavy singles - I noticed in chico's journal that he had a final 'set' of 6x1 - how are these performed? How much rest between each pull?

Frankly, 8x3 is great but even 4x3 is good, if it's the real 3.

I don't know about chic but when I pull a set of heavy deads it's usually singles (as opposed to just taps on the bottom) there is no rest period during a set.

Between sets I usually have whatever rest is on the menu for that day. So if I pull a set of 3 singles, there is no rest other than maybe a breath or two. If I pull three sets of 1, then there is rest between them.

I think the point of doing deadlift sets as singles is that by deloading everything at the bottom, you get the full pull every rep.

Other deadlifts, such as SLDLs, etc., I do not touch the bar to the floor between reps.

On heavy deads up to the point of my grip failure, I'll often even reset the grip between reps. So that takes a couple of seconds between reps and is a complete deload.

Great advice. I need to start doing more 8x3s. I also feel like, after having fallen off the wagon for so long (that's why I hadn't been posting for a while), that I need to rebuild my base again.

When you work up to heavy singles - I noticed in chico's journal that he had a final 'set' of 6x1 - how are these performed? How much rest between each pull?
That's actually six sets of one. Usually that's 2-4 minutes of rest between each single as the weight is in the 90-100% range.

I usually go by Prilepin's table for strength work: http://www.angelfire.com/pe/txpls/prilephin.html

Usually the terms singles, doubles, and triples just refer to the number of reps in a set. If someone says six singles then that usually means six sets of ones. Likewise, three doubles is three sets of two, etc. However, if you do a set where you go 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, meaning that there is only a momentary rest between each rep, then some people might also call that a series of singles as well. Technically, it is, but, since the rest is very short, you'd be better off just calling it a set of 4 and noting in some fashion that it was pulled one by one.

On heavy deads up to the point of my grip failure, I'll often even reset the grip between reps. So that takes a couple of seconds between reps and is a complete deload.

I have to do that sometimes but not when I use hooks.

FWIW,

"I" would: 185x5, 230x3, 275x2 ...with this you may have been in the 295-300range.

I would NOT recommend you do 8 x 3 or the like for the deadlift.

A nutshell version of what I recommend:

- Vary the version of the deadlift (standard, stiffs, sumo etc.) you are practicing every 4-5 weeks.
- Pyramid up to a heavy single and then stop. The single should be a PR or close to it.
- Alternate workouts of deadlifts and some other lower back movement such as GMs etc. If you feel you are getting stagnant use the non-deadlift day as an active recovery day and do not go heavy.
- Train your abdominal region HEAVY.
- Stick to one lower back movement per training day.

After pulling my wimpy PR the other day, I thought I could handle some light GMs today. Guess again. I am laid up in bed, heating pad and all. I don't even know why, since the GMs were so light (almost a stretch than a workout). But apparently my lower back wasn't quite ready for any work. I also did 5x5 BSQs today which probably didn't help much... :doh:

After pulling my wimpy PR the other day, I thought I could handle some light GMs today. Guess again. I am laid up in bed, heating pad and all. I don't even know why, since the GMs were so light (almost a stretch than a workout). But apparently my lower back wasn't quite ready for any work. I also did 5x5 BSQs today which probably didn't help much... :doh:

Hope it isn't too serious and you heal up real quick:blank:

So, does one pyramid every workout? Does the deadlifting have to be once per week?



I would NOT recommend you do 8 x 3 or the like for the deadlift.

A nutshell version of what I recommend:

- Vary the version of the deadlift (standard, stiffs, sumo etc.) you are practicing every 4-5 weeks.
- Pyramid up to a heavy single and then stop. The single should be a PR or close to it.
- Alternate workouts of deadlifts and some other lower back movement such as GMs etc. If you feel you are getting stagnant use the non-deadlift day as an active recovery day and do not go heavy.
- Train your abdominal region HEAVY.
- Stick to one lower back movement per training day.

So, does one pyramid every workout? Does the deadlifting have to be once per week?


Yes, you should pyramid-up the load for each set. I would not recommend deadlifting more than once per week. As per above, I recommend you alternate deadlifting with

Chris

I had very good progression on strength when I did a 3x5 regimen where I would do deads twice one week then the next week do it only once. I started at 155lbs and at the end of the routine i was doing I got to do 295lbs 3x5. Do you guys let the weight touch the floor between each rep?

Do you guys let the weight touch the floor between each rep?

I pretty much unload every rep on the ground. I get the full "dead" start.

woot.

deadlifted 185 three times today. only my second real time doing them.

once a week, they are fun! Am i supposed to really feel it in my back a couple hours later? cause i do.

quads, butt, lower back.

I would NOT recommend you do 8 x 3 or the like for the deadlift.

A nutshell version of what I recommend:

- Vary the version of the deadlift (standard, stiffs, sumo etc.) you are practicing every 4-5 weeks.
- Pyramid up to a heavy single and then stop. The single should be a PR or close to it.
- Alternate workouts of deadlifts and some other lower back movement such as GMs etc. If you feel you are getting stagnant use the non-deadlift day as an active recovery day and do not go heavy.
- Train your abdominal region HEAVY.
- Stick to one lower back movement per training day.

Some good stuff in there, especially about HEAVY ab training. The only poin that I might contradict is recommending pyramiding verses 8X3. IMO, both are acceptable. Pyramiding is easier to the degree that you are working on with heavier weights and it is easier for people who are new to weightlifting to understand. I switch my training up from time-to-time between pyramiding and #X3. Using #X3, you should keep a log of your training and always be increasing the working set weights every week. When you don't progress, switch exercises or technique.

Some good stuff in there, especially about HEAVY ab training. The only poin that I might contradict is recommending pyramiding verses 8X3. IMO, both are acceptable. Pyramiding is easier to the degree that you are working on with heavier weights and it is easier for people who are new to weightlifting to understand. I switch my training up from time-to-time between pyramiding and #X3. Using #X3, you should keep a log of your training and always be increasing the working set weights every week. When you don't progress, switch exercises or technique.


8x3 is a lotta friggin work for the dead...I'd go 4x3 or 5x3 depending how advanced you are and what your cns is at. I've had great success with 2x6, 2x4, 2x2 etc..etc..

Here's a good cycle to get that lift up there....it's gonna take time.

2x6, 2x4, 2x2 : (1 week at each rep range..repeat)
Then when that cycle dries up drop it to:
2x5, 2x3, 2x1

If you can handle more work add a set or two.:tu:

Hope it isn't too serious and you heal up real quick:blank:


Man, I LOVE that avatar!!! Thanks! :tu:

Oh, you look thick as well!

Some good stuff in there, especially about HEAVY ab training. The only poin that I might contradict is recommending pyramiding verses 8X3. IMO, both are acceptable. Pyramiding is easier to the degree that you are working on with heavier weights and it is easier for people who are new to weightlifting to understand. I switch my training up from time-to-time between pyramiding and #X3. Using #X3, you should keep a log of your training and always be increasing the working set weights every week. When you don't progress, switch exercises or technique.

Thanks for the compliment. I agree that 8 x 3 will work if the load is chosen carefully. I also think it will too easily lead to overtraining for many. That is why I like the pyramid method better in this case.

Man, I LOVE that avatar!!! Thanks! :tu:

Oh, you look thick as well!

Thank YOU for the shirt:tu:

Sorry for the thread hijack:o

I pretty much unload every rep on the ground. I get the full "dead" start.

Yes, that's what I do, and what I mean by singles.