I was just wondering Since I do chest presses...the pec machine...preacher curls...bench press....close grip bench press....tricep extensions and shoulder press....most of the excercises mentioned workout your arms/biceps/triceps as well...and other body parts at he same time...do i need to spend time on doing just bicep curls sitting down? i feel i don't get anything out of it

direct arm work is not necessary. if you're growing with indirect arm work, then you're obviously providing enough stimulation for your biceps to grow. If you're growth is stalled, then consider adding some direct arm work.

I was just wondering Since I do chest presses...the pec machine...preacher curls...bench press....close grip bench press....tricep extensions and shoulder press....most of the excercises mentioned workout your arms/biceps/triceps as well...and other body parts at he same time...do i need to spend time on doing just bicep curls sitting down? i feel i don't get anything out of it

It depends on your goal. What are you looking for? From what you've described you do:

Chest press = horizontal push + arm extension
Bench press (how is this different than chest press?)
Pec machine = horizontal push
Close-grip bench press = arm extension + horizontal push
Triceps extensions = arm extension
Shoulder press = vertical push + arm extension
Preachur curl = arm flexion

So the question really is - how are you splitting your workouts? You are doing 4 exercises (possibly 5) that are arm extensions (triceps) but only one that works flexion (biceps)??? That's severely imbalanced.

I'm assuming you do back on a different day? It seems you are making the mistake most people do, by doing a boatload of chest exercises but only one shoulder exercise. The most common way to injure the shoulder in the gym is by benching, typically because people worry too much about destroying their chest but then do only moderate volume on the shoulders leaving them as the weak link.

I'dd add some shoulders, and then hopefully your back is balanced between horizontal (rowing) and vertical (pulling) movements ... that will give you more arm flexion.

Unless you have a definite imbalance you should be matching work, i.e. one flexion per extension, etc.

If that is your total upper body then you are missing shoulders, back, and biceps in a big way. If it's just one day then it's tough to say what is needed without seeing the full routine.

Jeremy

I had tendinitis in my brachialis in both arms due to benching. They are used as a stabilizer for the lift. All the rowing, pullups and pulls that I was doing did not allow for sufficient strengthening of my brachialis. In the end, incorporating a few sets of db hammer curls worked wonders on alleviating the pain. I would say that they are necessary from the viewpoint of strengthening elbow flexion. As for building big biceps, I don't know, I don't care.

I was just wondering Since I do chest presses...the pec machine...preacher curls...bench press....close grip bench press....tricep extensions and shoulder press....most of the excercises mentioned workout your arms/biceps/triceps as well...and other body parts at he same time...do i need to spend time on doing just bicep curls sitting down? i feel i don't get anything out of it

Bicep curls are not necessary. No curls of any kind are actually necessary.


You didn't mention rowing though. Rowing IS necessary.

Preacher Curls ARE a bicep curl.

Seated curls with a barbell are just another type of curl.

From your post you mention that you are doing other ex's as well in your workout which at first glance leads me to believe you're doing full-body.

So if you are including a type of curl in the workout (which you obviously are) and you want it to be "one" bicep ex per workout where you do biceps, there is no need to stick to the same bicep ex all the time.

Check the "biceps" threads and select some alternate work from those.

:)

Chest press is different from bench in that bench you are laying on your back...n the machine that is titled chest press in my gym...you sit up straight and hold two handles and push forth.....


I do two shoulder exercises I just didn't mention one since i dont know what you call it...i do regular shoulder press...and then theres one where you sit down and pull a T shaped bar down onto you cheskt while sitting ....sorry im not good with gym terminology....I think that works out your shoulders and back....


EDIT: I do Upper/Lower Body on alternate days....are you guys saying I should cut out some of the upper body?

also do cardio everyday if that makes a difference

I do ... one where you sit down and pull a T shaped bar down onto you cheskt while sitting ....

You asked about biceps. None of the pressing stuff you are talking about has much to do with your biceps.

Pulling things down can be good for your back, could be good for your biceps, could be a lot of things. Can you find a picture of the machine on the internet? That would help us figure out what it is. It sounds to me like a lat pull-down machine. Which, although good, isn't really a complete substitute for some sort of rowing.

.and then theres one where you sit down and pull a T shaped bar down onto you cheskt while sitting ....sorry im not good with gym terminology....I think that works out your shoulders and back....


Sounds like a chest supported row machine.

http://www.rochesterfitnessequipment.com/Commercial_Strength/Tuff_Stuff/Tuff_Stuff_SP-404.jpg

What part(s?) of your body does this machine work out..I really feel like Im working when I do this machine...

Here is the pic....I was responding to the poster a few posts above who mentioned that I wasn't working out my shoulders/back ...sorry if i got off topic....so single handed sit down curls aren't neccessary? that was the main question...also are preacher curls neccesary? I find they do more than the singe handed curls but since I do a bunch of other exercises that involve triceps....

http://www.rochesterfitnessequipment.com/Commercial_Strength/Tuff_Stuff/Tuff_Stuff_SP-404.jpg

What part(s?) of your body does this machine work out..I really feel like Im working when I do this machine...

Here is the pic....I was responding to the poster a few posts above who mentioned that I wasn't working out my shoulders/back ...sorry if i got off topic....so single handed sit down curls aren't neccessary? that was the main question...also are preacher curls neccesary? I find they do more than the singe handed curls but since I do a bunch of other exercises that involve triceps....

That's a lat pulldown machine. Works the lats, shoulders, and maybe a bit biceps depending on how you do them. Similar to a pullup/chinup.

I would do a BB curl or chins in any arm workout. Lets see a picture of an arm that wasn't build with curls in the workout. I certainly would never replace a BB curl with preacher curls.:cool:

http://www.rochesterfitnessequipment.com/Commercial_Strength/Tuff_Stuff/Tuff_Stuff_SP-404.jpg

What part(s?) of your body does this machine work out..I really feel like Im working when I do this machine....

That machine (http://www.fitnesssource.ca/product_info.php?cPath=18_124_197_166&products_id=2549&osCsid=32b941ab19efffec263bc221168f13cb) has two main uses. The big single handle at the top is primarily for lat pull-downs, which sounds like what you described. Lat pull-downs are a good exercise.

The other handles on the machine are for rows. Instead of pulling down, you pull them toward you. That exercise is OK for your rowing requirement.

Make sure you balance the amoung of pressing you do with a similar amount of rowing.

Sorry for sounding like an idiot...whats rowing? don't bash me hehe...there are probably stickies about this but i want like a one sentence answer....and what are they good for?

I would do a BB curl or chins in any arm workout. Lets see a picture of an arm that wasn't build with curls in the workout.

Most traditional gymnasts did that, so at elite levels you typically get results like this:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040818/040818_paul_hamm_11p.widec.jpg

If you want a no-curl program for biceps? You can find one here (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=746517) and here (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-173-training) from a respected strength coach (Alwyn Cosgrove).

Most traditional gymnasts did that, so at elite levels you typically get results like this:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040818/040818_paul_hamm_11p.widec.jpg

If you want a no-curl program for biceps? You can find one here (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=746517) and here (http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-173-training) from a respected strength coach (Alwyn Cosgrove).

Agreed. Olympic level gymnasts do zero direct arm work.

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images/803663.1130808141724.gymnast.jpg

Sorry for sounding like an idiot...whats rowing? don't bash me hehe...there are probably stickies about this but i want like a one sentence answer....and what are they good for?

Rowing is pulling on something in front of you with your arms and upper back.

Rowing is essential for a lot of things. If you press a lot more than you row, you are increasing your chances of injury. Rowing strengthens the upper back and can correct posture and breathing. Rowing is good for the core. Rowing is important if you want a big upper back - like this Dorian Yates:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/71/Dorianyates.jpg

Dorian Yates invented the Yates row.

If you don't even know what rowing is, you need to fix that. It is a waste of time to think about which flavor of curls to do until you have your upper back and chest figured out.

Now it's all well that you have the ability to row on that machine you showed us. I would rather see bent over barbell rows (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/BBBentOverRow.html), single arm dumbell rows, and t-bar barbell rows in your program (more variety and hit your back harder) but seated rows are pretty good, and way, way, better than no rows.

ok so then curls are necessary? im confused as hell

ok so then curls are necessary? im confused as hell

Read above. You should be doing:

ROWS
PULLUPS
DIPS
BENCH PRESS

along with:

DEADLIFT
SQUAT

If you focused on those for the next 12-24 weeks, you would have a lot bigger arms with ZERO direct arm work.

Agreed. Olympic level gymnasts do zero direct arm work.

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images/803663.1130808141724.gymnast.jpg

It was certainly true for ages, but I'm not sure they all avoid weights like they used to. But it drives the point home that curls are not necessary.

Agreed. Olympic level gymnasts do zero direct arm work.

I mentioned chins but I want to see the people's arms that are suggesting no curls, not elite athletes.

I think I could beat you on numbers who built their arms with curls. If you want a muscular arm then curl and directly work your triceps. :bb:

It was certainly true for ages, but I'm not sure they all avoid weights like they used to. But it drives the point home that curls are not necessary.

I occasionally train with a former collegiate-level gymnast (graduated last year) who is training for cirque du soleil auditions in a few months, and she has never done direct arm work. When we do chins together, she can load a 45# plate on the belt (120 bodyweight + 45) and can crank out nearly 20 (no joke). I, on the other hand, at 170#, can do about 12-14 bodyweight. And arm size? I would say hers are around 14"- very impressive for a woman standing 5'1.

I mentioned chins but I want to see the people's arms that are suggesting no curls, not elite athletes.

I think I could beat you on numbers who built their arms with curls. If you want a muscular arm then curl and directly work your triceps. :bb:

I'm sure you could.

But I think the point to hit home here is that for a beginner (and I'm assuming that the OP is just starting out if he's asking this question) direct arm should take a backseat, if not left out of a routine until his entire body is strong. And that will come from consistent compound, multi-joint work.

I'm sure you could.

But I think the point to hit home here is that for a beginner (and I'm assuming that the OP is just starting out if he's asking this question) direct arm should take a backseat, if not left out of a routine until his entire body is strong. And that will come from consistent compound, multi-joint work.

I would recommend a beginner do both compound and isolation moves with less numbers of exercises and sets.

I'm sure you could.

But I think the point to hit home here is that for a beginner (and I'm assuming that the OP is just starting out if he's asking this question) direct arm should take a backseat, if not left out of a routine until his entire body is strong. And that will come from consistent compound, multi-joint work.

Plus, the original poster is doing

chest presses...the pec machine...preacher curls...bench press....close grip bench press....tricep extensions and shoulder press....most of the excercises mentioned workout your arms/biceps/triceps as well...and other body parts at he same time...do i need to spend time on doing just bicep curls sitting down?

Three different flavors of chest press, pec machine, and looks like no rowing. That's what he needs advice on.

Sorry for sounding like an idiot...whats rowing? don't bash me hehe...there are probably stickies about this but i want like a one sentence answer....and what are they good for?

Im afraid one scentence just isnt going to cut it. You'll have to make do with three paragraphs. Or four, if you include this one. :cool:

In a pressing motion, you push weight out away from your body. For example, in a bench press you are lying horizontal and pushing weight upwards away from your body. When pressing, the arm is extending outwards and the arm muscle being worked is the tricep.

In a rowing motion, you pull weight in towards your body. For example in a bent over row (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/BBBentOverRow.html) your back is horizontal and you are pulling weight from the floor towards your chest. When rowing, the arm is contracting inwards and the arm muscle being worked is the bicep.

Other varitions include horizontal rows (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/CBSeatedRow.html) and unilateral rows (http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/BackGeneral/DBBentOverRow.html). When someone refers to rowing, they typically mean one of these three exercises. Rows are very good for targeting your back muscles, and also recruit the biceps in the process.

edit: beaten to the reply by miles

Also, from reading the comments section (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1478463), this guy does no direct arm work at all, either.

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images/a7dd4-dagsform20070228-1.jpg

http://www.t-nation.com/forum_images/f5a3b-mini-GJ7E0256%5B1%5D.jpg

While not utterly perfect, his physique is amazing and something many of us would kill for. And how was it built? Plain ol' compound exercises. Granted, he doesn't have *huge* arms, but when they are relatively proportional and functional (read that he can crank out 50-70 bodyweight dips), you have to stop worrying about arm size a little bit.

(read that he can crank out 50-70 bodyweight dips), you have to stop worrying about arm size a little bit.

Dips and Chins are both good arm exercises, I recommend often. I have no worries about size. While Biceps and triceps are relatively small muscles they should be worked and I feel directly.

You can feel anyway you want and express it, stop worrying about what I believe a little bit. Express yourself to the original poster :cool:

Dips and Chins are both good arm exercises, I recommend often. I have no worries about size. While Biceps and triceps are relatively small muscles they should be worked and I feel directly.

You can feel anyway you want and express it, stop worrying about what I believe a little bit. Express yourself to the original poster :cool:

(read that he can crank out 50-70 bodyweight dips), you have to stop worrying about arm size a little bit.

Excuse my grammar. The "you" was the 2nd person plural, and was not directed towards YOU, rtestes, the 2nd person singular. I should have said "one should not worry".

This isn't meant as a pissing contest- I'm showing the OP what is possible without direct arm work.

I agree with TB and zen. I think the time in the gym for beginners and even intermediates (like me) is better spent on big movements than doing "arm" days ad naseum.

I still don't have big arms, but that's because I still don't have big legs or big shoulders, and they're more of a priority for me. The arms will follow the growth in other areas, because they're involved in a lot of other lifts.

Overall body compositional changes and size can be effected more quickly with the bigger moves. If you spend a whole lot of time doing set after set of curls or calf raises, the average lifter is taking away from the big moves in their limited time they're spending in the gym. They're not going to get near the metabolic or hormonal responses they would receive for time spent squating or doing pullups.

I'm not saying avoid them completely (although it wouldn't hurt a lot), just spend no more than maybe 25% of your time on iso stuff that's not a direct accessory lift to correct an imbalance or something.

Same with abs, IMO.

Once you get a good base built, then it starts making sense to me to focus a bit more on the smaller muscles.

throw in some curls at the end of a back workout
throw in some pushdowns at the end of a chest workout

I mentioned chins but I want to see the people's arms that are suggesting no curls, not elite athletes.

I think I could beat you on numbers who built their arms with curls. If you want a muscular arm then curl and directly work your triceps. :bb:

I built my arms with bench press, pull ups, and 1 arm DB rows. While now that huge, they're about 15" flexed @ a BW of ~ 180. I can also bench press 315, row about the same, and do a weighted pull up with +135 lbs. Check my picture thread if you want pictures, but I believe beginners should focus way more on the main torso muscles and legs than the arm muscles.

The reason I try to do little or avoid back exercises is that I had a herniated disk a couple of years ago and I REALLY DONT want to do that again...for those of you who have had that you know what im talking about... was only 16 at the time...anyways...what are some light back exercises I could start out doing ...?

thanks again...and thank you guys for the quick and informative replies...

The reason I try to do little or avoid back exercises is that I had a herniated disk a couple of years ago and I REALLY DONT want to do that again...for those of you who have had that you know what im talking about... was only 16 at the time...anyways...what are some light back exercises I could start out doing ...?

thanks again...and thank you guys for the quick and informative replies...

Well now you've mentioned your injury. Yes, that is a major consideration. You really need to get professional advice on what you can and should do around that.

Eventually you will not want to avoid back exercises at all - but don't just dive in. You are correct in assuming that you must start slow and see how it goes. But avoiding back exercises is just a formula for getting more back injuries if you work out the rest of your body hard.

My advice is now: Get professional advice about getting your whole body strong, including your back. Get into good shape, build that fundamental platform of strength before you worry about polishing off stuff with curls.

You need your back to be healthy a whole lot more than you need big biceps.

in addition to bent-over barbell rows, what else should I incorporate into my workout in terms of rowing?

On my pull day, I do a little something like this:

wide stance deadlift 3x10
assisted pullups 3x10
bent-over barbell rows 3x10
lat-pulldown
shrugs
bicep curls

Since this thread has been revived:

Olympic gymnasts have nothing to do with this thread. They have big biceps, but those biceps are mostly built through methods not accessible to the average person, over a length of time that is vastly longer than most lifters have even been training, and as a result of the rigorous demands of their sports, not concentrated aesthetic effort. Their biceps do not represent what is attainable for the average lifter as the methods by which they were attained are completely different.

Also, for anyone who hasn't heard me say it, their biceps are not the result of pull-ups. It's largely the straight-arm leverage work on the rings that they perform (crosses, planches, malteses, etc.) which is responsible for the great hypertrophy. Pull-ups are not a particularly effective exercise past the basic levels of the sport because they become much too easy unless the resistance is increased. Even when weighted pull-ups are performed, they are not usually a staple of a gymnasts training as they have little specificity to the large volume of static holds gymnasts must perform.

Bicep curls are necessary whether you want to attain some aesthetic of big arms or need to help ensure the health of your elbow joint. Just performing compound movements is not enough unless you are on an all out bulk all the time and continually gaining a significant amount of body mass as you make significant increases in strength. This is not to say that bicep curls should be the focus of anyone's training -- I would never agree to that -- but that they are useful and, for the most part, a necessary adjunct to compound based training.

in addition to bent-over barbell rows, what else should I incorporate into my workout in terms of rowing?

On my pull day, I do a little something like this:

wide stance deadlift 3x10
assisted pullups 3x10
bent-over barbell rows 3x10
lat-pulldown
shrugs
bicep curls
Nothing -- that looks fine to me. Vary exercises after an appropriate length of time and after progress has begun to stall. Work progressively, trying to increase weights or reps as often as possible.

As a beginner, I think that doing the big compound movements puts enough stress on my tris/bis for growth -- I get some DOMs the next day in my arms (although I'm not sure this is necessary for growth) and, more importantly, my strength increases. I do, however, throw in a quick set of bicep curls/french press to "finish them off" at the end of my session. I have an abbreviated training routine, e.g. yesterday I did:

Squats (Warm up + 2x12)
Dumbell bench (Warm up + 2x6)
Military press (2x6)
French press (1x6) -- stripping weight on failure

I do a similar thing with bicep curls at the end of my back/bis session. Funnily enough, I've found my weights tend to go up a bit more now than when I was exhausting myself doing 3 exercises on the tris/bis a few months ago. Somehow, it feels like concentrating on the squats/deads makes more of a difference all over.