I'm gettting a little frustrated with how slowly things are going, and I'm wondering if I should use a thermogenic.

First some background:
I'm basically copyingwhat John Stone's initial fat loss program was in 2003 - pyramid training 3x/week, LISS cardio every day on the stationary bike (morning, fasting). This alll is a starting point while I learn what works for me. I'm even eating the same foods John ate right off his original Feb. 2003 menu (God bless him), except I am avoiding processed stuff like pretzels and eating oats, cottage cheese, chicken breast instead of veggetarian stuff and so on. My diet is exactly 40P/40C/20F, and I'm taking in about 1700 calories per day, 5 meals a day. Drinking 1 gallon of water a day. I'm 31.

Over the last 6 weeks it has gone like this:
week1: education, started diet only, successfully consistent
week2: continued education, kept with diet, successfully consistent
week 3: 186 lbs, BF 29.5%, waist 43" - started cardio only
week 4: 183, BF 29.5%, waist 43", continued cardio successfully, added body weight exercises
week 5: 176.3, BF 29.5%, waist 42 1/8" - added lifting to cardio
week 6: 176, BF 29.2%, waist 41 1/2", continued lifting and cardio.
I don't feel like I've lost muscle mass, because I've gained a little in my arm and leg measurements, and I feel much stronger.

Now to the point:
The body fat percentages above are from my Taylor Body Fat scale and Healthcentral.com BF calculator. It's driving me nuts that the BF has not moved down much at all.My metabolism seems veryslow. Should I just stick with the program or try a thermogenic supplement to help out? GNC has a whole wall of thermogenics...if I did use any, what should I use?
Thanks.

Your not eating enough. If you'd like to see what John is doing now, check out his current food logs, and I'm sure if you took ideas from there, then your progress will be improved :)

You lost 10lbs in the last 3 weeks. What's wrong with that?

Pay no attention to the BF scale. It's worthless. The mirror and your measurements are the only thing to pay attention to.

On the thermo's, that's a personal choice. However, you seem in a rush to fix a problem that doesn't seem to be a problem. Again, you lost 10lbs in 3 weeks. Just keep it up.:tu:

Be patient Wolfvgang. You have only just begun. Try adjusting your calories or macros first.

I'm gettting a little frustrated with how slowly things are going, and I'm wondering if I should use a thermogenic.



Thermogenics won't fix a thing. Unfortunately, that's a myth. There is great marketing that makes it seem like this is the solution, but it's not. I know - I've been coaching people to lose fat for years.

Unless you already are losing fat through your training and nutrition, a thermogenic is going to do nothing more than make your scalp tingle. It can add a bit to what's already there, but it's negligible - despite inflated claims, the most well studied and effective thermogenics can burn at most an additional 150 or so calories per day ... that's 1/3 of a pound per week, or the equivalent of parking at the edge of the parking lot and walking in and using stairs instead of elevators.

Your body fat is probably inaccurate. Those devices don't do well at all ... if you are losing weight, you are losing body fat ... some people might not lose much body fat if they aren't training, but you are.

I've found for males anything above 26% is typically inaccurate and it's best to use the scale. Only when you get closer to 20 and below do body fat readings start to get more consistent and make sense.

Your fat loss looks fine. Plateaus happen. In all of my years of coaching, I have never once met anyone who loses the exact same amount of weight week to week. There is always a week or two that stall or slow - this is perfectly normal so don't sweat it.

Keep doing what you're doing ... two weeks is hardly enough time to say it's not working ... and a thermogenic is only going to take your cash and give you a buzz, it's not going to solve your fat loss problem.

Jeremy

For me, thermogenics does two things extremely well. One was suppressing my appetite. Second was helping me maintain my lean mass during a cut. But Jeremy's right. Thermogenics are not miracle supplements. They help but aren't magic.

Sure, At Large Nutrition is a sponsor. Here is a link to make it easier.


http://www.atlargenutrition.com/nutrition_detail.php?products_id=4

The only way you'll know for sure they don't work is to try it yourself.

I'm gettting a little frustrated with how slowly things are going, and I'm wondering if I should use a thermogenic.

[/B]Thanks.

No.

I'm gettting a little frustrated with how slowly things are going, and I'm wondering if I should use a thermogenic.



Congratulations.

I hope you don't mind varied opinions. You presented us some good detail, and asked a very broad question. But I am not sure the answer can be given without prefacing this with ... In my opinion ...

NO.

a) you have made progress each week as it is. (go back and look - progress is NOT just weight nor BF%) Please ignore your BF readings for now. Rely on your sight, how you FEEL, your measurements, and your weight at THIS point. Frankly, I am not sure how anyone looking at your last 6 weeks could conclude anything other than "it is working for this guy so far!"

b) Frankly, I think it is silly when some people say "eat more" so often. It is not a panacea for everyone. That being said ... ya might want to eat more! I bet at your activity level, you could stand a 6th meal of 300 calories. If you do not use whey/protein shakes right now, you could add a balanced one in. Are you particularly hungry on lifting days? If so, definitely eat more, especially that day. But again, this may not need 'fixing'.

c) Thermogenics are (opinion warning!!!) most effective at the margins, ie the first 5% or last 5% that you are looking to eeek out. Again, what you are doing seems to actually be WORKING. Why try to add a 5% margin with perhaps dubious consequences and un-needed cost?

Again, Congratulations so far.

Ten pounds in six weeks! Keep it up, man. The best thermogenic is encouragement, but you can't always rely on the scale or the tape to give you what you need.

I have been fighting this battle for most of 7 years now, and the one thing I wish I had done to shorten that number was just stick to it patiently.

Don't go for the thermogenics right now. Keep reading, keep educating, and work on cleaning your foods. Keep it in the forefront of your mind.

As soon as you feel the frustration, come back to this board and let everyone know you're in a rut. From what I've seen, the people here are incredible at motivating others.

Best,
E.

Don't lose conviction on an approach just because things slow down.

IMO, if you're not losing strength, you can either increase cardio more or cut calories back further, contrary to popular anti-starvation approaches, but considering the progress you have had, you easily could have been just having a heavy day at last weigh in.

In any case, to your question, no don't do thermos. They are not good for you. Try harder, you DO NOT need them. Do it right. The only time your heart rate should be increasing is because you just worked out, not took drugs. I've done them, I will not do them again. I've gotten to 8.5% bodyfat through diet and exercise alone and felt fabulous.

You lost 7 pounds between week 4 and 5? What is your method for weighing in? Do you weigh in at the same time of day under the same conditions? How would you feel if you weighed in at 180 on week 5 and 176 on week 6? I doubt that you'd be saying that you're frustrated with your weight loss. Also, your waist went down 3/4" in a week during the week that you only lost 0.3 pounds. That is a huge change.

You've lost 10 pounds in the past 4 weeks. THAT IS GREAT! Keep up the hard work. IMO, you're wasting your time with the body fat analysis, since it's high enough that dropping weight should be your primary concern. I would table the body fat analysis for now. Or do it once a month at most (at least until you get below 20%).

As for thermogenics, I'm no expert on them, but it sounds like you're doing great so far without them.

I was also about to order thermogenics but after reading this thread I realized that there's no use for them right now. I recommend taking thermogenics in the end of your diet, when you're cutting the last few pounds. Good luck and be patient!

I believe thermogenics (in pill form) are dangerous and do more harm than good. They do curb hunger but at least for me that comes with disturbed sleep, spike in blood pressure and some anxiety.

This is what I am using to speed up fat burning:
- Two bags of Japanese Green Tea boiled in two quarts of water. I consume this by 2 pm. Green tea also contains Theanine that relieves anxiety that might come with caffeine consumption.
- 1 Teaspoon of Red Chilli peppers sprinkled over food. If you can't handle Chillies in your food mix a teaspoon of chilli powder with a little olive oil and ingest with a cup of water.

To curb hunger
- Chew one tablespoon of Fennel seeds about ten minutes before meal time. Fennel is a very common spice used in Middle east and India. It's most common use is as a breath freshener. You can buy about a pound of fennel seeds for $2 at any Indian grocery store.
http://www.glenbrookfarm.com/herbs/fennel.html

Agree with you about BF analysis. I was too fixated on BF% calculations for about a month - used calipers, scales with BF reading etc. I have finally figured that the best way to keep track of BF is by using the US Navy circumference method. It is pretty quick - just measure your waist and butt (women only) and plug it in here.
http://www.he.net/~zone/prothd2.html

It is quite accurate and comes within +-2% of the calipers. Now I check BF% only once every two to three weeks.