My friend and I were talking about the functional uses of exercises, ie. bench press, potentially for pushing things in vertical position, football for instance. But we came to Dumbbell Flys, and couldn't really come up with anything? I mean, the hugging motion isn't really sport related or is it?

Any ideas?

Ciao.:tu:

This is a good question. How about a high tackle in football, where one isn't driving their shoulder into the opponent but is dragging them down. This is especially useful when approaching from the side.

http://www.ylcountry.com/images/Pioneer%20football%20jamboree%20%28tackle%29.jpg

This is a good question. How about a high tackle in football, where one isn't driving their shoulder into the opponent but is dragging them down. This is especially useful when approaching from the side.

http://www.ylcountry.com/images/Pioneer%20football%20jamboree%20%28tackle%29.jpg

Interesting...not a football player as you can see. So I guess the squeeze during the end of the movement really helps if you want to lock this guy in and drag him down lol. GOOD Stuff, thanks! I was thinking wrestling too, where you have to grab the opponent's waist and throw him down.

If you're a boxer doing pec flyes will help your left or right hook to some degree.

Well, you can find a justification for pretty much any exercise, but that doesn't mean it's necessary or even beneficial to perform. A football player, for example, could concentrate on flyes, but he'd be better served on just performing the bench press since that has the potential to create more strength and size, is much more applicable to a variety of tackling situations, and will create strength that will carry over to that "hugging" tackle. Someone with a big bench press will have more than enough strength to squeeze the crap out of you in a hug without ever performing a flye.

There is a tough subject to talk about motor learning as it applies to sports. A person has abilities that are primarily depend on genetic factors and experience abilities that are general traits that endure past the formative years. We can posses a Skill which is a specific prescribed response to a given stimulus, skills are learned through efficient practise that depends on underlying abilities.

Kicking is an ability, kicking an extra point in football is a skill. Hand-eye coordination is a skill it can apply to baseball, basketball golf and tennis. But the coordination required in each instance is not specially related.

muscle strength is an ability but one that can be trained through life, it is effected by genetics. The more skill that one obtains, the more specific his practice should be! You learn best by doing what you want to learn. You want to be a good blocker practice blocking in full speed, pads in practise. You want to be a punter, punt the ball, not just any ball, a regulation football. That is called Positive transfer, where practise and competition are the same. It is the best way to learn.

Negative transfer is practise where the activities are almost the same, they can mess up neuromuscular pathways. Don't put a lead weight on the end of a baseball bat, because you don't swing a weighted bat in a game. you are learning the wrong skill.

Indifferent transfer is where the practise is totally unrelated to the competition. Now that is where strength training comes into play, it provides the stamina and conditioning to handle the very productive positive transfer where practise and competition is the same.

So I know you aren't trying to match your exercises to the competition form but I suggest you just forget about it. Build all your muscle, don't try to tailor them to your position or sport. Just build your muscles and try to eliminate weakness. Compound or muti-joint exercises affect the most muscles so get a lot of them.

This motor learning discussion came to mind due to reading a chapter in Dr. Ellington Darden latest book - The New Bodybuilding For Old School Results, get it. Any book by Dr. Robert Singer or Richard A. Magill might also give you information on motor learning as it applies to sports.

True or False:

Explosive bench pressing teaches football player to be fast.

Agility drills build quick hands and feet for football.

Tossing a medicine ball increases throwing ability.

Jumping rope is good for coordination.

Lifting free weights improves balance more than do machines.

Motor learning research says they are all false. Most coaches and athletes don't know this.

I agree with the motor learning experts. The neuromuscular pathways for the development of various sports skill must be mechanized through repeated, competition-like practices. Strength training needs to be based on the general functions of the major muscle groups. Skill is specific and strength is general.

Perhaps most importantly: Do not try to simulate in the weight room what happens on the athletic field. Many coaches fail to grasp this principle and instead, jump aboard the misleading philosophy based on power cleans and explosive bench presses.

Once again, coaches who recommend fast lifts are doing a disservice to their athletes. Such lifting so can lead to neuromuscular confusion and possible injuries.

Coaches would do well to remember the following: Skill train fast; strength train slow.


John P. Kalas, M.D.

My friend and I were talking about the functional uses of exercises, ie. bench press, potentially for pushing things in vertical position, football for instance. But we came to Dumbbell Flys, and couldn't really come up with anything? I mean, the hugging motion isn't really sport related or is it?

Any ideas?

Ciao.:tu:


Yeah it doesn't really matter. Some of your work should be sports related but not all of it needs to be sports related. There are something like six targets for training - muscles, nerves, cardiovascular, body composition, liver, and mind. Not every workout or exercise hits them all equally.

It's important to have a wide vocabulary of exercises so that you can tailor your program to changing conditions.

Dumbell flyes work the chest but hit the shoulder differently than the bench press. That's enough reason to know how to do them.

True or False:

Explosive bench pressing teaches football player to be fast.

Agility drills build quick hands and feet for football.

Tossing a medicine ball increases throwing ability.

Jumping rope is good for coordination.

Lifting free weights improves balance more than do machines.

Motor learning research says they are all false. Most coaches and athletes don't know this.
Are you sure? Why?

Do you consider a dynamic effort bench press to be of any benefit to the football player?

Ah, missed your last post, sorry. I understand what Kalas is saying about duplicating the movements in the weight room or 'so called sport-specific training,' but I see a lot of benefit from explosive weightlifting, especially for the athlete.

You know what? Nevermind. I just found the interview you quoted from and read the whole thing.

It would end up being another boring HIT vs. non-HIT debate, and I don't think anyone is in the mood for another one of those. :)

18828

You wouldn't be able to do this without incoprporating a lot of flys in your workout.:D

Are you sure? Why?

Do you consider a dynamic effort bench press to be of any benefit to the football player?

Builds some muscle. But not speed. Playing out in the yard from ages 3-9, does the football players more good than many ideas of coaches and PTs. There is something to formative years and touch football teams with no adult supervision.

Builds some muscle. But not speed.
I understand, but do you believe dynamic - or at least explosive - weightlifting has no benefit to the athlete?

I understand, but do you believe dynamic - or at least explosive - weightlifting has no benefit to the athlete?

I don't think explosive reps build more muscle then slower controlled reps. I do not think doing a rep fast will cause an athlete to move faster in his specific sport or position.

Do you believe that because A QB does his bench presses faster, that will cause him to be able to throw the ball faster. It does not increase his response time. simply because he moved a heavy weight faster. The motor learning guys did do studies that proved it didn't.

I think an athlete should build muscles, he should receive instructions on his position duties and responsibilities then a coach should use game like practise to detect and correct errors. the Player brings his abilities to the field, they set his position, specific practise and coaching develops the skills. I am unsure any exercise will build skill. They can only enforce the abilities.:confused:

================================================== ==============================
I ran track in jr and senior high school, only fair sprinter. I had a friend that went out only in his senior year. later when he was a junior in college. He wanted the school to buy his meals and books, so he walked on at the track team, the coach told him what minimum speeds he had to meet and gave him three weeks before season to reach them. He did, and became a member of a relay team that went unbeaten in the SEC and set a record that stood for about 7 years after them. We were talking about that just awhile ago. He said you know I never was coached in running and I said I wasn't either. He said but once, in that 3 week tryout, a distance runner from south Africa stopped me one day and said "you are running too stiff and too straight up". he said he corrected it and made his times. Another friend never played football until his senior year in HS, his parents didn't want him to get hurt, he made all-State. Full scholarship in college, made all SEC for 2 years and went on to 10 years in pro ball. They carried a lot of ability to the sport.

Good post. :)

I don't think explosive reps build more muscle then slower controlled reps. I do not think doing a rep fast will cause an athlete to move faster in his specific sport or position.
I think that is really the center of my questions, which, by the way are just questions and not necessarily questioning you; I enjoy the discussion. :)

We clearly disagree on what builds more muscle and strength, and because of that the rest of the discussion can't really go anywhere. I don't for a minute think that slower, controlled reps are not useful (if you recall, I've run through plenty of successful stints of HIT, Heavy-Duty, BFL, etc.). But I also have seen success incorporating other methods of training. I can't provide studies to back things up (though a quick Google search shows plenty of information to back me up), but I can say that cycling through other methods of training has been beneficial for me. Heck, using the MAXOT method alone (which is at times extremely explosive) was what gave me some of my best gains in the past. And using a Westside-style combined with a "bodybuilder's diet" gave me pretty good results.

Not having enough experience or knowledge, I don't know if a fast rep or dynamic effort will cause the athlete to move faster. But I do feel it might help a trainee become stronger, which might indirectly make him/her a better athlete.

Do you believe that because A QB does his bench presses faster, that will cause him to be able to throw the ball faster. It does not increase his response time. simply because he moved a heavy weight faster. The motor learning guys did do studies that proved it didn't.
Good question. Again, with my lack of knowledge and experience I don't know. What about a linebacker or fullback? What about other types of exercises? An explosive rep doesn't have to only be done with a barbell or dumbbell. What about flipping a tire?

What about a different kind of athlete? How about a powerlifter? :D (haha)

I think an athlete should build muscles, he should receive instructions on his position duties and responsibilities then a coach should use game like practise to detect and correct errors. the Player brings his abilities to the field, they set his position, specific practise and coaching develops the skills. I am unsure any exercise will build skill. They can only enforce the abilities.:confused:
Sure, I see what you're saying. We're kind of talking about two different things here I think. You're talking about barbells and dumbbells being (or not being) sport-specific; I'm just saying I think making an athlete stronger might be a good thing. But again I think we disagree on what is best for building a stronger and more muscular body.

I ran track in jr and senior high school, only fair sprinter. I had a friend that went out only in his senior year. later when he was a junior in college. He wanted the school to buy his meals and books, so he walked on at the track team, the coach told him what minimum speeds he had to meet and gave him three weeks before season to reach them. He did, and became a member of a relay team that went unbeaten in the SEC and set a record that stood for about 7 years after them. We were talking about that just awhile ago. He said you know I never was coached in running and I said I wasn't either. He said but once, in that 3 week tryout, a distance runner from south Africa stopped me one day and said "you are running too stiff and too straight up". he said he corrected it and made his times. Another friend never played football until his senior year in HS, his parents didn't want him to get hurt, he made all-State. Full scholarship in college, made all SEC for 2 years and went on to 10 years in pro ball. They carried a lot of ability to the sport.
Cool stories. :)

Good post. :)

Not having enough experience or knowledge, I don't know if a fast rep or dynamic effort will cause the athlete to move faster. But I do feel it might help a trainee become stronger, which might indirectly make him/her a better athlete.



Sure, I see what you're saying. We're kind of talking about two different things here I think. You're talking about barbells and dumbbells being (or not being) sport-specific; I'm just saying I think making an athlete stronger might be a good thing. But again I think we disagree on what is best for building a stronger and more muscular body.


Cool stories. :)

I do agree that strength training makes him a better athlete. I am not sure we disagree that much about what is best for the stronger more muscular body. If we do it is only to a minor point. But as old as I am I think more to building up the masses the average Joe's, not the stand outs like you and maybe 20 others at this site.

Studies: http://www.cscforce.com/johnston.pdf
http://www.21minutefitness.com/docs/arthurjones.pdf



I love to tell old "war" stories. I hope they are cool. My football coach in high school was a 4 time all American and pro football player, ex college coach. We had four day practises with pads on, never without. He taped every one's ankles for games unheard of in high school in those days.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
My buddy, the walk-on at track, also walked on for football one season for meals. He had read a story in sports Illustrated about Lou "the toe" Groza the best pro football field goal kicker, the article had many pictures showing how Lou kicked them. So he talked to coach to see if he could borrow a ball and stand and go to stadium and practise. He was persuasive and talked him into it. me and a couple of other guys went and held and ran the ball back for him. He got so he could hit them bang bang bang even from the 50 yard line. So he got meals and they got a third string kicker for back up. He dressed out for all home games and some aways, never kicked, always ready to. He quit after one season, thanking coach, He was a good talker and looked good in uniform, at 6'1" 190lbs. He could really run.

-------------------------------------------------------------
One day in college I went to a freshman game, Alabama was playing. I wasn't paying much attention but soon my eyes was riveted to the field and game. I saw the most amazing demonstration of a QB and a running back I had never seen to that time and only beaten a few times since. I had to run around the mostly empty stadium to find a typed rooster the players Joe Namath and Johnny Musso. With good knees I think both of them would have set records that would have lasted for years. They sure impressed me.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Well enough stories, the days were good then.:cool:

He taped every one's ankles for games unheard of in high school in those days

Never read over the whole thread yet but i noticed this statement.

The ankle is build predominantly for mobility, restricting that with tape is a bad idea. Some fitness professionals think that's why there's an high incidence of high ankle strains now amongst basketball players, high top sneakers and tape.

Never read over the whole thread yet but i noticed this statement.

The ankle is build predominantly for mobility, restricting that with tape is a bad idea. Some fitness professionals think that's why there's an high incidence of high ankle strains now amongst basketball players, high top sneakers and tape.

Well maybe he was wrong like most coaches, we felt better and maybe that is all that mattered. When he came to us we were in losing seasons, in two years the school was in state championship and won it in four. By third year he had all players in low quarters, not just the backs and ends.

Not having enough experience or knowledge, I don't know if a fast rep or dynamic effort will cause the athlete to move faster. But I do feel it might help a trainee become stronger, which might indirectly make him/her a better athlete.

Or directly. Tiger Woods avoided much chest training because he didn't want a big chest to get into the way of his swing.

Then he saw other guys on the tour adding yards to their drive from strength training for chest.

Guess what he did?

Now here is the point about sports-specific. The nerve stuff does have to be done pretty much at speed and in a similar motion.

But it's not all about nerves. Sometimes increased isometric strength helps in a motion. That's actually part of how a stronger chest helps the drive - it allows for a more efficient transfer of force from the untwisting spine to the arms.

Sports is full of non-motive uses of strength. A guy trying to stack you up off the line in football is going to load your core up something fierce. You're not going to squat him, and you're not going to power clean him, but you are going to be better off if you have been training squats and power cleans.

I used to coach one of the quickest, most motion intensive sports I can think of - fencing. One thing that happens when you get into really quick movements is that the whole body is more connected than when it's slow. I've mentioned this sort of test before, but it's worth having it in mind. Stand up straight and raise one arm straight out to the side. Slowly bring the straight arm forward and then back, but don't allow any other movement. It's not hard at all. Now, increase the speed steadily until you are moving the arm as fast as you can, even through a small range of motion. Notice the motion that is occurring in the hips! Where did that come from? It comes from the fact that as you go to quicker movements, there is a lot more acceleration, and since you don't change the weight of your body parts, that means a lot more force.

There are two aspects of this increased force - the production of the force, and the production of the counterforce. The nerves that produce it tend to have to be trained in the more sport specific way, the muscles that produce it less so. But the other side of the coin - the stabilization counterforce - is supposed to be almost isometric, so it can be trained in almost any way. This is also emphasized when the sport is taken into account because most sports that are performed against opponents involve the counterforce being produced in all sorts of unpredictable situations. Consider a tennis player - the swing is predictable when the footwork and core strength allow the body to adapt to the pursuit of the ball enough that the arm and shoulder can swing in the predictable way. If the ball can only be got by extreme pursuit, then the swing is also unpredictable - so what sport specific training applies?

So although nerve training is really important for sports, and that means sports specific training, it's not the whole story by quite a margin.

Well maybe he was wrong like most coaches, we felt better and maybe that is all that mattered. When he came to us we were in losing seasons, in two years the school was in state championship and won it in four. By third year he had all players in low quarters, not just the backs and ends.

I feel better stretching everyday, i don't need some study to tell me that.

If it worked great, the tape thing might now apply to football players so much has basketball players at any rate.

Not that anybody needs me to point this out, but ....

This thread demonstrates perfectly how ~5 different people, who are ALL SUCCESSFUL in their own right, can have 5 different opinions on optimizing the same thing.

These differences are most prevelant at the margins of achievement, e.g. eeking out the last 20% of our human capabilities. Although of no practical help to me right now (I am working on the FIRST 20% of human capabilities :) .... ), the theoretical discussion is fascinating.