Just curious,..I made a couple simple changes with my supplements a couple weeks back. One was going from regular Monohydrate, to a product that contains CEE . I have been getting pretty bad headaches, that have been getting worse as time passes. Of course I am discontinuing use of the that product for a while to see if it clears up, but, I thought I might find others that experienced the same thing, to help understand what might be going on.

One other time, I was using straight CEE, and it didn't agree with me much at all. It just gave me a bad feeling over all, including the headache. I had forgot about that until a couple days ago,...

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Not sure if it was just a co-incidence, but earlier last month I began taking CEE and shortly afterwards I started getting very bad headaches while lifting. They gradually got worse so I decided to come of it as I obvioulsy wasn't getting on with it. The only problem is my headaches continued and were still getting worse. They turned into side splitting migraines which lasted for a few days. I have recently gone to the doctors about this and he has booked me an appointment at the neuroligist for tests.

I know this is an old thread, but did you sort your headaches out?

I can bring em on anytime by simply doing 20 press-ups and BANG its there!

I have been ordered to stay out of the gym, which to be honest is killing me!

DTOXIN Dan

Drop the CEE- I used to take it too and did get the occasional minor headache.

More importantly, however, CEE has been shown to be pretty worthless in more recent studies.

Stick with monohydrate or micronized mono.

Thanks Hort for the advice. :) I'm still pretty new to all this, so I'm taking one day at a time with the supplements. Where did you find out about CEE being worthless? I had absolutely no gains with it during the short time I used it, but a few friends are using this supplement and perhaps they should know.

I'm still waiting on the neuroligist appointment (NHS is UK sux!), my headaches / migrains are still happening even during sex! I'm getting anxious now and missing my workouts is getting me down :(

I'm currently doing light cardio (aerobic) at the moment just to keep busy.

There have been a few studies recently- here's one Layne Norton posted on several forums a while back:

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

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Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a “Buffered” creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (CreapureÒ). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37± 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.



I was at the ISSN conference when Mark Tallon presented these and I literally almost high fived him. It's about time this crap died!

-Layne
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Thanks again Hort for that information. Its quite intense stuff. I have passed on your advice to a couple of friends. Cheers again mate. :)

Did not figure out the headaches I was having. MRI showed nothing,...Gradually went away. I too had the pain come on at different times,..I figure they were what is considered Exertion headaches. Bad stuff in deed,...Good luck,...

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Indeed... Had my Neurology appointment today and yep.. Exertion Migraine was the diagnosis... no MRI needed as I passed all the tests. Blood clot free! Been prescribed beta-blockers with instructions to take it 'easy' at the gym. :) I plan on gradually increasing the effort to where I was before.