Hi,

I had read some good information about this for post workout usage and wanted to try it out. Was curious if anyone else knows where I could purchase some(at a good price)?

The only place I found online was at trueprotein and it seemed rather expensive (20 dollars for 3 lbs + 10 dollars shipping).

Thanks!

Trueprotein IS the cheap place.

You could buy it under the trade name Vitargo (http://www.vitargo.com/01UK/Index_Products.html)

Has anybody used this stuff (Waxy Maize)? How well does it mix?

I'm interested because I am really getting tired of Carbo-gain. I swear to god, you could dump a scoop of that stuff over Niagra Falls, and you'd still find it clumped up somewhere down the river. Short of putting it in a blender on a setting of "ultra-nuclear liquify", you might as well count on drinking clumps.

I like the WMS. I've been using it for a few months now and I have noticed my recovery is better than with dextrose.

I wouldn't buy it for the taste though. It tastes like corn starch.

I like the WMS. I've been using it for a few months now and I have noticed my recovery is better than with dextrose.

I wouldn't buy it for the taste though. It tastes like corn starch.

How well does it mix? That is my big problem with carbo-gain, is that it is very hard to get it to mix without clumping.

It does not mix well unless you shake it a lot. I use a hand blender, put it in my jug and take it to the gym. Even then I need to really shake it.

Same consistency as trying to mix corn starch.

Trueprotein IS the cheap place.

You could buy it under the trade name Vitargo (http://www.vitargo.com/01UK/Index_Products.html)

Vitargo no longer uses WMS , they switched to a very similar molecular structure in a barley starch.

How well does it mix? That is my big problem with carbo-gain, is that it is very hard to get it to mix without clumping.

I find WMS mixes very easily. If you let it sit, depending on how much water, it can settle just a little but no biggie.

I've been using WMS for several months and will doubt I'll ever go back to dex/malto.

Everything I right here is based on my extensive use of it:

Pro's:
* excellent digestability- no bloat, gas, nothing.
* fast gastric emptiying. This gets to where you need it fast.
* for me and my friends who use it, it seems to be an excellent recovery aid, soreness significantly reduced. Has anti-oxidant properties.
* increases muscle fullness
* does not spike insulin. In fact, it's a carb source that really seems to help keep insulin level, while still helping with the desired pwo benefits. It's actually not confirmed what the GI is. Near as we can tell it's probably no higher than 70. But I think GI is irrelevent in this case.

Cons- pricy. Where dex is $1-2lb, WMS is $5-6


I currently use WMS this way:

30-40g WMS pre-wo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

30-40g WMS pwo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

Soon I'll likely be adding Purple Wraath during workout and I may re-portion the WMS to be used some during.

Here's what Troponin has to say:

It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post exercise meal has been scrutinized, and analyzed make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

After exercise that depletes the body of it’s glycogen stores, an enzyme called glycogen synthetase is produced in elevated quantities by the body to help restore glycogen levels that have been depleted from the exercise. Typical rates of glycogen resynthesis after short term, high intensity exercise are much higher than glycogen resynthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers are used more heavily in short term, high intensity exercise, and fast twitch fibers have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4)
This means that the body has a greater need, and a greater ability to restore glycogen levels after short term, high intensity training, which is exactly what weight training for bodybuilding purposes is.

It is widely known that it is important to get carbohydrates into your system soon after weight training. One reason is, studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post exercise will result in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Largely because of this fact, it has become standard practice to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. A "sugar" is defined as any of a class of water-soluble crystalline carbohydrates, including sucrose and lactose, having a characteristically sweet taste and classified as monosaccharides, disaccharides, and trisaccharides. (9) It was quickly noted by those in the know that not all sugars are created equal. For example, one monosaccharide called fructose has often been given, an arguably undeserving, bad rap for it’s propensity to restore liver glycogen levels when muscle glycogen restoration is the goal.

The Glycemic Index (GI index) was developed to give a number to carbohydrate rich foods based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the more quickly it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. Insulin is the "bus" that helps shuttle all the nutrients to your muscle and other cells of the body. The highest GI food is glucose, with a GI of 100. With this information, D-glucose (Dextrose), quickly became the carbohydrate of choice for use post workout.

What all this is saying is what everyone already knows. After a workout, it is important to take in fast acting protein and carbs to begin repairing and rebuilding your hard earned muscle. But, what if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post workout carbohydrate war, high molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in recent studies in a wide range of post workout benefits.


The words most often thrown out when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is essentially based around the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic. A solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of energy uptake occurs. (11) Basically, a very low osmolality means it will get to your precious muscle as fast as possible.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower it’s osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher it’s osmolality. So, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to more closely appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and Dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000. The molecular weight of Dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This stat helps quantify the difference between the two carb sources.
The Osmolality of said HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution., which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and Dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate.(13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout? One study on the subject showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 hours after ingestion, with the scientists coming to the conclusion that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise."(6) What the scientists are saying can be paraphrased as "a HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles faster than the carbohydrate you’re using now." These studies showed that blood sugar levels and insulin levels were not statistically significantly different the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose. So, despite being a complex carbohydrate, compared to the sugary Dextrose, the HMW carbohydrate was still raising insulin at about the same level as Dextrose. So, at this point, what we’re dealing with is something that powers through the stomach, leaving you with no bloated feeling, reaching the point of digestion at mach speeds, reaches the blood stream as fast as Dextrose, but restores glycogen 70% faster. Sounds too good to be true? It gets better.


What this all leads towards is that the Osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post workout, as well as increase the uptake of vital nutrients added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That’s right, all the stuff you’ve been taking after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is, any amino based nutrient (protein, amino acids, creatine, etc.) has a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate, so when adding other nutrients you must consider the effect those nutrients will have on the total molecular weight of the mix. So, at least in theory, too much protein, creatine, and other nutrients can take away some of its benefits.

For this reason, it is my belief that added amino based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My current recommendations for a 200lb bodybuilder are 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. Since we’re trying to keep extra nutrients to a minimum, we are focusing on select nutrients that give us the most "bang for our buck." L-leucine has been shown in studies to be the specific amino acid to "switch on" protein synthesis. And all of the Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA’s) have been shown to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle. Creatine has been shown in many studies to provide many benefits to bodybuilders. This means that the "best" amino acids will be available as quickly as possible to trigger muscle growth, and decrease catabolism.

This meal should be followed approximately 15-30min later with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates, preferably a fast digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the make up of your muscle mass, you will learn that there is much more to the muscle than just contractile tissue. A large portion of your muscle mass area is made up of things besides muscle. There is water, glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, capillaries, etc., etc. By using these HMW carbohydrate powders, you can quickly draw the carbohydrate up into your muscles, along with water, and the cell volumizing nutrients you take along with it. With the faster glycogen restoration, you can decrease catabolism after a workout, and speed up the potential for synthesizing protein as new muscle. In plain English, the result is more muscle.
__________________
www.troponinnutrition.com



Skip over at Intense Muscle is running some tests on it... jury is still out on how best exactly to use it. There may be an "ideal" ratio of WMS to aminos or "other" ingredients but it's all pretty speculative.

PM me if you want to chat more about it.

Good to know, thanks :)

Vitargo no longer uses WMS , they switched to a very similar molecular structure in a barley starch.

Maybe i should look into this stuff myself, since i need to improve my recovery methods due to increased frequency.

Hort, what kind of protocols are people using? Do people mix it with straight protein instead of BCAA's?

Maybe i should look into this stuff myself, since i need to improve my recovery methods due to increased frequency.

Hort, what kind of protocols are people using? Do people mix it with straight protein instead of BCAA's?

Lot's of experimenting going on with it. Yes- you certainly can use it with whey, etc. As pointed out earlier- the ratio of other items in the mix to wms pulls down the osmolality ... how much? Dunno? Net negative effect? Unknown. You could start by using WMS in the same way you use dex or malto.

I did a test last month. I've been doing a total-body split for a while... 90 minutes and leaves me wasted. I did M-W-F using dex with Cell Swell and then a M-W-F using wms and Cell Swell. The dex week left me sore for three days, tired, carrying water... after my PWO shake I was shaky- sugar rushed and tired an hour later.
The wms week I cruised... felt great... an hour after each workout I was ready to go again. No bloat. No rush.

My complete WMS regimen:

30-40g WMS pre-wo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

30-40g WMS pwo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

30 minutes later whey and oats

45 minutes after that: lean meat and fibrous veg, etc.

:)


I've added almost 1/2 inch to my upper arms while on a diet below maintenance... so I be happy :p

Lot's of experimenting going on with it. Yes- you certainly can use it with whey, etc. As pointed out earlier- the ratio of other items in the mix to wms pulls down the osmolality ... how much? Dunno? Net negative effect? Unknown. You could start by using WMS in the same way you use dex or malto.

I did a test last month. I've been doing a total-body split for a while... 90 minutes and leaves me wasted. I did M-W-F using dex with Cell Swell and then a M-W-F using wms and Cell Swell. The dex week left me sore for three days, tired, carrying water... after my PWO shake I was shaky- sugar rushed and tired an hour later.
The wms week I cruised... felt great... an hour after each workout I was ready to go again. No bloat. No rush.

My complete WMS regimen:

30-40g WMS pre-wo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

30-40g WMS pwo along with Cell Swell from True Protein (CEE, Glutamine Peptides and BCAA)

30 minutes later whey and oats

45 minutes after that: lean meat and fibrous veg, etc.

:)


I've added almost 1/2 inch to my upper arms while on a diet below maintenance... so I be happy :p


Congrats on the arm progress!

I have be looking over the intense forums - first time - and i think i might just go with 1 scoop of wms pre and post workout. Along with 2 scoops of protein each time.

What's the difference between "waxy maize starch" and regular corn starch?

What's the difference between "waxy maize starch" and regular corn starch?

molecular make-up... I did a fair amount of digging in the chem papers and can't really explain the significant differences... where's our staff chemist? :D Isn't G-homer a chem?

At any rate, I do know that corn starch doesn't behave like wms, at least not for what you want.

I have be looking over the intense forums - first time - and i think i might just go with 1 scoop of wms pre and post workout. Along with 2 scoops of protein each time.


:tu: Try it and see- mind you a full scoop is quite a lot- at least
40-50g depending just FYI.

And to all- it can make a mess if not careful. ;) It's a least as slippery as corn starch.

:tu: Try it and see- mind you a full scoop is quite a lot- at least
40-50g depending just FYI.

And to all- it can make a mess if not careful. ;) It's a least as slippery as corn starch.

I think i might drop the pre-workout wms and just use plain protein but PW i'll use 1 scoop of wms along with some protein. I always sip on something during my workouts, i think its just has important has PW.

Red and Hort ... Thanks for the info ... I think next time around, I'll ditch the dex/malto and try some Waxy Maize.

Hort,..
Question for you on the Cell Swell. I have been using it, and their No Holds Bared for a good couple weeks now, and notice I have a sweet taste, all the time. Have you experienced this at all? I opted not to try the WMS right now. I have been watching that testing you mentioned for a while to see how it turns out. Looks like it will be very positive.

>>>--->

Red and Hort ... Thanks for the info ... I think next time around, I'll ditch the dex/malto and try some Waxy Maize.

You're welcome. Happy to help. :)

Hort,..
Question for you on the Cell Swell. I have been using it, and their No Holds Bared for a good couple weeks now, and notice I have a sweet taste, all the time. Have you experienced this at all? I opted not to try the WMS right now. I have been watching that testing you mentioned for a while to see how it turns out. Looks like it will be very positive.

>>>--->

Don't believe I've noticed that.

Hmmm,...
I backed off the Cell Swell for a couple days, and it has passed. I'm almost out of it. I think I will finish it up, and see if in that time frame, it comes back. I'm concerned about the CEE anyway, so I think a little time away from it will give me feedback on both issues,...

>>>--->

I should get into supp sales because the buying public is so excitable, even over WMS which originated as an expendable bakery ingredient.

Folks, WMS marketing is based on a single study funded of course by the Swedish manufacturer. The researchers compared a 300g glucose solution with 300g WMS taken during a 4-hr postworkout recovery period. WMS loaded glycogen faster than glucose, big deal. The problem is, most of the folks who are enchanted by WMS marketing aren't glycogen depleting triathletes. Furthermore, there's no proof that speedier glycogen replenishment will benefit the trainee long-term, unless you're doing multiple competitions per day that require as rapid a reload as possible. Other than that population, spending extra $$$ for the empty calories of WMS is a waste.

I should get into supp sales because the buying public is so excitable, even over WMS which originated as an expendable bakery ingredient.

Folks, WMS marketing is based on a single study funded of course by the Swedish manufacturer. The researchers compared a 300g glucose solution with 300g WMS taken during a 4-hr postworkout recovery period. WMS loaded glycogen faster than glucose, big deal. The problem is, most of the folks who are enchanted by WMS marketing aren't glycogen depleting triathletes. Furthermore, there's no proof that speedier glycogen replenishment will benefit the trainee long-term, unless you're doing multiple competitions per day that require as rapid a reload as possible. Other than that population, spending extra $$$ for the empty calories of WMS is a waste.



Sorry Alan... within a week of adding WMS to my workout it made a significant, measurable impact on my workouts... I don't even care if it's the glyco reload specifically... I know what Bobo says about this and probably agree... but it's a carb source that has meant that I have better energy, better workouts, am growing better, etc.

I've tried the same routine going back to dex etc and I've just sticking with whole foods. I'll stick with WMS. It works.

I'm among the first to say the science behind it is thin. But there are many folks using it in real-life trials (albeit not scientific controlled studies) who are experiencig good results.

Most supplementation is a crapshoot... this happens to work for me... regardless of whatever a piece of paper does or doesn't say.

Hort ain't playin with the waxy maize starch. :bb: Whatever works, bro!

Sorry Alan... within a week of adding WMS to my workout it made a significant, measurable impact on my workouts... I don't even care if it's the glyco reload specifically... it's a carb source that has meant that I have better energy, better workouts, am growing better, etc.

I've tried the same routine going back to dex etc and I've just sticking with whole foods. I'll stick with WMS. It works.

I'm among the first to say the science behind it is thin. But there are many folks using it in real-life trials (albeit not scientific controlled studies) who are experiencig good results.

Most supplementation is a crapshoot... this happens to work for me... regardless of whatever a piece of paper does or doesn't say.Not to bust your balls or anything, but I know quite a few folks who've tried it & not had any results beyond what they were doing previously. I can see it contributing if it means more cals/energy than you were taking in before, but this whole 70% faster glyco-reload claim is bullsh!t. I looked at the study, did the math, & it's 23% faster. Given the nature of non-triathlete training (typical BB or fitness protocols), it would take half a day MAX to completely top off your glycogen stores as a result of the exercise bout. This means that if it normally took you 5 hours to resynthesize lost glycogen (keep in mind I'm assuming you're not an idiot who skips his preW nutrition), WMS would get you fully re-loaded in 4 hrs instead of 5. Whoopee.

As far as the effect you're feeling, the hype behind this stuff is tremendous in the gullible BB community, I'm familiar with this because I'm a part of it. If you've bought in, you're gonna experience the placebo effect, big time. True story about the placebo effect, an experimental group's strength gains were measured for a number of weeks without any supplementation. During the experimental phase of the treatment, subjects were given a placebo that they were lead to believe was steroids. The placebo influence resulted in 7.5x the strength of the pre-placebo phase of the trial. This is one of countless examples.

Bottom line is, if it's working for you, great. But don't kid yourself as to the mechanism by which it's working.

Alan, I'm with Hort on this one. I'm not a scientist and I don't proclaim to be a know it all, but I have also had a very positive response to WMS instead of Dextrose.

I've tried many different supplements, but the WMS is the only one where I have seen a clear difference (verses Dextrose). I've been on WMS for a couple of month now and if better recovery, less bloat and gains in the gym are all from a placebo effect than sign me up :).

Alan, I'm with Hort on this one. I'm not a scientist and I don't proclaim to be a know it all, but I have also had a very positive response to WMS instead of Dextrose.

I've tried many different supplements, but the WMS is the only one where I have seen a clear difference (verses Dextrose). I've been on WMS for a couple of month now and if better recovery, less bloat and gains in the gym are all from a placebo effect than sign me up :).Have at it, bruddah. The pharmaceutical industry depends on the placebo effect for an average of 35% of its results, and lord knows the pharm industry is doing just fine. You think the supp industry doesn't know this?

I'm not expecting anyone to fall for my stance right off the bat, especially not those who just bought a whole batch of micronutrient-free glucose polymers. I just want to get some minds to start thinking more critically after looking at the facts.

Back to what I said earlier, if you want to stake your beliefs on one solitary industry-funded study looking at an unrealistic dose (300g!!!), then be my guest. For me it's more fun to sit back & watch others spend their money on the placebo effect.

For the past three years I've been involved with a click of six other natural pro bodybuilders, peers and friends (some are pro's in the orgs I am in, some are pro's in the WNBF) where we communicate and keep in touch on a weekly basis with what we are doing, experimenting with, etc., regarding nutrition, training, and supplementation. We've develpoed a close camaraderie and, due to our evaluations, experimentations, and most of all - friendship, we come to certain conclusions with what works, and what doesn't work. If you browse through any supplement catalog you'll find a cornucopia of supplements which claim to have scientific backing and support. However, I'd say that 95% of what you find in them is garbage. In our three years (btw, all of these guys are high echelon, even though we are pro's, I cannot hold a candle to any of them) we have run the gamut. Not surprisingly enough, during our association, we have not only improved in every area regarding physique, but have had our best contest placings, including pro shows. I have competed in 5 pro shows, and have placed higher and higher in each, due to I feel, our unique click.

I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, I failed chemistry and math in grade school. But I still read all the studies and we are on Pubmed every day.

Regardless of what is said, Bcaa's, Glutamine, Creatine, have made the biggest impact upon our success. There is a caveat though.....If your nutrition is not spot on every day, every week, every month, NO SUPPLEMENT WILL PROVIDE ANY MAGICAL AFFECT.

We've been discussing and using waxy maize and so far we've been very pleased with the overall results, all things considering. If there is a placebo effect going on, we don't worry about it. We are after results. Sometimes you have to take other routes to determine supplement efficacy. So far, we have made enormous progress and pass along our findings to our clients (some of us our trainers; I am not). If someone disputes me or our successes and findings, that's fine. I respect Mr. Aragon's conclusions and opinions and also his backround. But, I will continue to do things my way. :tu: Why fix what ain't broke....yet. When that time arrives, we'll move on. Gotta remain openminded :tu:

Great post, mast. Alan- my tests with WMS were initially gram for gram compared to dex. Call it placebo, call it whatever. It works better for me.

And the recovery aid- that's not placebo... that's reality.

If someone disputes me or our successes and findings, that's fine. I respect Mr. Aragon's conclusions and opinions and also his backround. But, I will continue to do things my way. :tu: Why fix what ain't broke....yet. When that time arrives, we'll move on. Gotta remain openminded :tu:I respect any rational person's opinion, especially if he's as deep in the game as you are, so respect right back to ya mastover. Many here don't know my background or what I do for a living, but I still occasionally post here anyway because I enjoy teaching people about the facts when I feel like they're getting a little too placebo-drunk.

Again, WMS hype is based a single study funded by the Swedish manufacturer, using a 300g dose. Also be aware of the power of suggestion as it relates to the placebo effect (that example I gave 2 posts ago was real & one of many).

Those are the facts, whoever reading this can take it or leave it, but just be aware of it.

I respect any rational person's opinion, especially if he's as deep in the game as you are, so respect right back to ya mastover. Many here don't know my background or what I do for a living, but I still occasionally post here anyway because I enjoy teaching people about the facts when I feel like they're getting a little too placebo-drunk.

Again, WMS hype is based a single study funded by the Swedish manufacturer, using a 300g dose. Also be aware of the power of suggestion as it relates to the placebo effect (that example I gave 2 posts ago was real & one of many).

Those are the facts, whoever reading this can take it or leave it, but just be aware of it.

I'm no science buff but why would you discount the placebo effect? Afterall, the brain is - from my reading - still very much a mystery. If we can trigger something VIA the placebo effect that produces real results why not go with it?

I guess science is usually obsessed with hard numbers and facts. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm no science buff but why would you discount the placebo effect? Afterall, the brain is - from my reading - still very much a mystery. If we can trigger something VIA the placebo effect that produces real results why not go with it?

I guess science is usually obsessed with hard numbers and facts. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that.I never discounted the placebo effect. In fact, my illustration of trainees experiencing a 750% strength increase after being deceived into thinking they were given steroids doesn't discount the placebo effect -- it shows just how powerful it is.

Which is exactly my point. I want folks to be perfectly clear about the agent(s) at work when they "feel" incredible effects in the absence of substantial objective data.

Perhaps my favorite placebo case was a Japanese study done in the 60's taking a look at the effects of suggestion with a poison ivy-type plant on contact dermatitis. Using subjects as their own controls, the researchers rubbed a harmless leaf on one forearm, and the irritant leaf on the other. Subjects were lead to believe the exact opposite was done. The results still give me the chills... 11 of 13 showed a diminished skin reaction from the irritant leaf, and 12 of 13 showed signs of dermatitis when exposed to a harmless leaf.

ANYONE can come in here and chime in about their personal experience/testimony. Does that make the information objective? Nope.

And don't think I didn't expect dissent from dudes who already bought WMS :). So far you guys have kept the tone civil, which is cool.

I never discounted the placebo effect. In fact, my illustration of trainees experiencing a 750% strength increase after being deceived into thinking they were given steroids doesn't discount the placebo effect -- it shows just how powerful it is.

Which is exactly my point. I want folks to be perfectly clear about the agent(s) at work when they "feel" incredible effects in the absence of substantial objective data.

Perhaps my favorite placebo case was a Japanese study done in the 60's taking a look at the effects of suggestion with a poison ivy-type plant on contact dermatitis. Using subjects as their own controls, the researchers rubbed a harmless leaf on one forearm, and the irritant leaf on the other. Subjects were lead to believe the exact opposite was done. The results still give me the chills... 11 of 13 showed a diminished skin reaction from the irritant leaf, and 12 of 13 showed signs of dermatitis when exposed to a harmless leaf.

ANYONE can come in here and chime in about their personal experience/testimony. Does that make the information objective? Nope.

And don't think I didn't expect dissent from dudes who already bought WMS :). So far you guys have kept the tone civil, which is cool.


Interesting the Japanese study. I'm coming from a total different perpective then you but its pretty interesting this placebo effect, maybe by concentrating too much on the quantitative data your losing out on an important part of the equation.

Maybe your not, i'm alittle over my head here i think. I usually leave all this science stuff to folks like you, i just love training. :)

So do you think WMS can help recovery? That's why i'm thinking of taking it frankly, or would you go another route?

I'm going on a maximal training program soon and just coming off a period where i was overtrained that's my main concern, recovery.

btw where a pretty civil bunch around here. :)

Interesting the Japanese study. I'm coming from a total different perpective then you but its pretty interesting this placebo effect, maybe by concentrating too much on the quantitative data your losing out on an important part of the equation.

Maybe your not, i'm alittle over my head here i think. I usually leave all this science stuff to folks like you, i just love training. :)

So do you think WMS can help recovery? That's why i'm thinking of taking it frankly, or would you go another route?

I'm going on a maximal training program soon and just coming off a period where i was overtrained that's my main concern, recovery.

btw where a pretty civil bunch around here. :)Let's begin at the beginning.

In The Beginning, lol.

1st of all, all research showing the benefit of quick carbs postworkout was done on an empty stomach after an overnight fast. In that case, of course quicker is better. Then along comes the now-famous Tipton study showing that immediate preW P+C cause much greater protein synthesis than immediate postW P+C, presumably because blood levels of the nutrients ingested preW were elevated during peak blood flow from training.

Moral of the story: unless you completely skip your preW nutrition, quick carbs aren't necessary postworkout, because they're ALREADY PRESENT IN THE BLOOD during & post training if you did your preworkout nutrition right. Having been a former perpetual high-GI hardon, it took me years to accept this. Let me add another wrinkle to this if I may... high GI postW has been shown in recent research to either have a negative impact (on both performance & fat oxidation), or not have any significant impact at all on recovery & next-day training performance.

And here we are talking about the GI/glycogen synthesis kinetics of a SINGLE MEAL for shytting out loud. Talk about insignificant. Perhaps if you did the same protocol as the WMS study & socked down 300g of it, you might get some benefit -- granted you have multiple training bouts or competitions in a single day. Otherwise, it's useless. But of course, if you have enough high hopes in an unproven product, those hopes will translate psychosomatically into whatever result you want, so don't let me stop you.

Gotta finish the book guys, been good discussing this, I wish I had more time to do so.

Let's begin at the beginning.

In The Beginning, lol.

1st of all, all research showing the benefit of quick carbs postworkout was done on an empty stomach after an overnight fast. In that case, of course quicker is better. Then along comes the now-famous Tipton study showing that immediate preW P+C cause much greater protein synthesis than immediate postW P+C, presumably because blood levels of the nutrients ingested preW were elevated during peak blood flow from training.

Moral of the story: unless you completely skip your preW nutrition, quick carbs aren't necessary postworkout, because they're ALREADY PRESENT IN THE BLOOD during & post training if you did your preworkout nutrition right. Having been a former perpetual high-GI hardon, it took me years to accept this. Let me add another wrinkle to this if I may... high GI postW has been shown in recent research to either have a negative impact (on both performance & fat oxidation), or not have any significant impact at all on recovery & next-day training performance.

And here we are talking about the GI/glycogen synthesis kinetics of a SINGLE MEAL for shytting out loud. Talk about insignificant. Perhaps if you did the same protocol as the WMS study & socked down 300g of it, you might get some benefit -- granted you have multiple training bouts or competitions in a single day. Otherwise, it's useless. But of course, if you have enough high hopes in an unproven product, those hopes will translate psychosomatically into whatever result you want, so don't let me stop you.

Gotta finish the book guys, been good discussing this, I wish I had more time to do so.


Good luck with the book. :)

I've been a big fan of peri nutrition. I usually sip on some BCAA's/creatine or just protein during my training. I shy away for sugar personally.