ok, i just bought a workout program that has workouts once a day for an hour or it has a workout for twice a day, an hour in the morning and an hour at night.

on the twice a day program, you get to do double the sets per body parts as the once a day program, so it said you will get faster results in the muscle department.

here is the question, would it be better for fat loss (i am about 20%) to do the once a day program at night and cardio in the morning, or do the twice a day program with no cardio? i would prefer to do the twice a day workout, but dont want to completely hinder fat loss.

i planned on eating about 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight and the drop calories (from fat and carbs) down until i loose a steady 1.5 lbs of body weight a week. if i keep what lean muscle i have now, i calculted i should be at 8% bodyfat and weigh 175 lbs in 17weeks which is my goal.

any thoughts on this approach?

I think we'd to know a lot more about you to help you out here. Your height, starting weight, meal outline (Meal 1:..., Meal 2:... and so on).

But to answer you question, cardio is NOT required on a cut. That's not to say it's useless on a cut. You can lose fat by manipulating your diet, but cardio is highly recommended.

What does the twice a day workout program suggest? I would imagine working out twice a day to be pretty taxing on the body and I wouldn't suggest it especially if you are new to training.

I think we'd to know a lot more about you to help you out here. Your height, starting weight, meal outline (Meal 1:..., Meal 2:... and so on).

But to answer you question, cardio is NOT required on a cut. That's not to say it's useless on a cut. You can lose fat by manipulating your diet, but cardio is highly recommended.

What does the twice a day workout program suggest? I would imagine working out twice a day to be pretty taxing on the body and I wouldn't suggest it especially if you are new to training.




Im 6 foot and about 200 pounds. At 20% body fat, I am about 160 pounds lean weight. So at about 175 pounds I should be real close to 8% body fat granted I don’t lose any muscle in the process

The diet I plan to use is a CKD type diet. 6 days I will be eating chiefly lean beef, chicken and green low carb veggies and whey protein to help with the protein intake. I don’t have the appetite to get all the macros from real food alone, so will take a whey shake with each meal to hit the targeted protein amount. On the seventh day (my off training day), I will try to eat clean and take in about 60 percent of the calories from carbs and cut back on the protein this day. Then repeat the process. I’m looking at about 1600-1700 calories a day or so.

I have a busy environment where I work and cant eat all day long so six meals a day is out for me. I will be able to eat 4 meals a day though. All 4 meals will consist of whey protein, some type of meat and some type of low carb veggies and some peanut butter or olive oil to get a little fat.

The workout program I will use has a couple diet plans in it. It has the typical low-fat high-protein diet and also a low carb diet (CKD). Always being a little on the pudgy side, I have found that a low-carb approach is about the only way I have ever been able to shed any weight.

I know the twice a day program is rough, but the workouts are usually closer to 45 minutes each. I’m game to try it out if you think it will work. I just didn’t want to do a bunch of cardio and end up loosing any muscle mass because I don’t have a whole lot to spare. I figured hitting the weights hard and keeping the protein high while cutting the carbs and calories down to the point I am losing 1.5 pounds a week would help me retain what muscle I have and hopefully build up a little more while trying to cut.

Im 6 foot and about 200 pounds. At 20% body fat, I am about 160 pounds lean weight. So at about 175 pounds I should be real close to 8% body fat granted I don’t lose any muscle in the process

The diet I plan to use is a CKD type diet. 6 days I will be eating chiefly lean beef, chicken and green low carb veggies and whey protein to help with the protein intake. I don’t have the appetite to get all the macros from real food alone, so will take a whey shake with each meal to hit the targeted protein amount. On the seventh day (my off training day), I will try to eat clean and take in about 60 percent of the calories from carbs and cut back on the protein this day. Then repeat the process. I’m looking at about 1600-1700 calories a day or so.

I have a busy environment where I work and cant eat all day long so six meals a day is out for me. I will be able to eat 4 meals a day though. All 4 meals will consist of whey protein, some type of meat and some type of low carb veggies and some peanut butter or olive oil to get a little fat.

The workout program I will use has a couple diet plans in it. It has the typical low-fat high-protein diet and also a low carb diet (CKD). Always being a little on the pudgy side, I have found that a low-carb approach is about the only way I have ever been able to shed any weight.

I know the twice a day program is rough, but the workouts are usually closer to 45 minutes each. I’m game to try it out if you think it will work. I just didn’t want to do a bunch of cardio and end up loosing any muscle mass because I don’t have a whole lot to spare. I figured hitting the weights hard and keeping the protein high while cutting the carbs and calories down to the point I am losing 1.5 pounds a week would help me retain what muscle I have and hopefully build up a little more while trying to cut.

I started out really close to your where you are at right now. I was at 24% BF at 5'9" and 190 lbs, and worked out for an hour and a half to two hours a day, no cardio. I can't say that I didnt get fantastic results. I put on inches in my chest, legs, arms(everything but calves) and dropped a few inches on my waist. However, after about 6-10 weeks, I really started feeling these results in my joints. Shoulders, elbows, wrists all started taking their toll from all this strain. My general sense of well being started falling off too. I was tired quite a bit, and started having problems gettign motivated to go to the gym every day.

This is probably especially true for someone just starting out. I figure all those "newbie gains" you get in the first few months in the strength and size department are good for your ego, but can put some serious wear and tear on your joints, especially if you are overtraining. I was doing this on 2200 calories somewhat dirty(pre-JSF forums discovery) and 2800 clean calories post JSF(and yes i was losing weight during this time too).

I then finally broke my vow of never doing cardio, and its been great. If you are like me, you hate cardio because of those wind sprints you had to do in high school. Cardio does not have to be that way. Try a liss program in the morning, at your own pace, and see how it makes you feel. A good low intensity workout, along with a good diet, really doesn't have to cause much, if any, muscle loss.

I wonder about your fear of carbs. Have you ever really tried to lose weight by eating clean and working out? For a vast majority of people, carbs are NOT the enemy. They keep you in a sense of well being, which helps keep you motivated to hit that gym even harder. They also help in preventing some of that muscle loss that you seam to fear. Your calorie intake of 1700 seems far too low. High protein is good, but consider adding to your diet, keep hitting the gym hard and see where that takes you.

I view cardio as very key to fat loss.

You send a message to your body to let stored bodyfat go, you don't just sit around and hope that w/a reduction of calories that your body chooses to shed fat instead of burn muscle. (Diet is equally important here!)

The body is KNOWN to prefer to burn lean muscle first while dieting (survival instinct to hold on to fat for energy/warmth with the lack of food), so attention to diet as mentioned above (what the macros are most importantly), workouts, supplements, timing, are all very key. On top of all of those is cardio, responsible for over-riding the body's desire to hold on to bodyfat and burn lean mass instead.

As well, cardio is the best exercise for our most precious muscle, the HEART! I'd never go a day w/out it, and I don't.

~SC~

Your choice in diet is not a good idea.
You'll find that out very soon when you see your energy levels vanish and you'll crave carbs/sugar like you wouldn't believe.
And i mean uncontrollable cravings.

Your refeed days you'll end up eating too many crap foods because you cant hold back - you'll end up making no progress whatsoever.
Not to mention on a CKD, you're not supposed to go low fat.
I've done that diet before - you will end up worse than when you started, and you will go crazy waiting for the refeed days.
First week you'll be fine and you'll think i'm wrong.
Middle of the 2nd week you'll start wanting the refeed.
3rd week you'll want the refeed day as soon as you start the week.
And it will only get worse every week.

What i suggest is just eat a well rounded diet - read the stickied posts.
I dont care how busy you say your work is - you can still make time for snacks between meals.
Eat a sandwich during your break at work, eat another one during lunch, and then some mixed nuts during your last break.
This will be enough to spread your calories out during the day.

If you stick to what you're planning on doing dietwise you will fail.

:gl:

Your choice in diet is not a good idea.
You'll find that out very soon when you see your energy levels vanish and you'll crave carbs/sugar like you wouldn't believe.
And i mean uncontrollable cravings.

Your refeed days you'll end up eating too many crap foods because you cant hold back - you'll end up making no progress whatsoever.
Not to mention on a CKD, you're not supposed to go low fat.
I've done that diet before - you will end up worse than when you started, and you will go crazy waiting for the refeed days.
First week you'll be fine and you'll think i'm wrong.
Middle of the 2nd week you'll start wanting the refeed.
3rd week you'll want the refeed day as soon as you start the week.
And it will only get worse every week.

What i suggest is just eat a well rounded diet - read the stickied posts.
I dont care how busy you say your work is - you can still make time for snacks between meals.
Eat a sandwich during your break at work, eat another one during lunch, and then some mixed nuts during your last break.
This will be enough to spread your calories out during the day.

If you stick to what you're planning on doing dietwise you will fail.

:gl:


I don't know enough about CDK diets to comment, but I agree 100% with the rest of this post. If you are serious about starting this journey, you will find a way to throw back small snacks throughout the day.

The diet I plan to use is a CKD type diet. 6 days I will be eating chiefly lean beef, chicken and green low carb veggies and whey protein to help with the protein intake. I don’t have the appetite to get all the macros from real food alone, so will take a whey shake with each meal to hit the targeted protein amount. On the seventh day (my off training day), I will try to eat clean and take in about 60 percent of the calories from carbs and cut back on the protein this day. Then repeat the process. I’m looking at about 1600-1700 calories a day or so.

I'll back up the "low carbs/low fat is bad" sentiment. As I understand it, in CKD land, you should get a lot of calories from fat. You don't list any fats in what you are planning to eat. Maybe an oversight, but if not and you are truly going low or moderate carbs, get some fats. I've cut on 35-40% fat recently and I didn't feel run down at all. I was getting 70 g carbs on non-lift days and 100 or so on lifting days, so it wasn't ultra low carb, but a good moderate carb plan.

Also, your calories look kind of low to me, but maybe it's because I'm used to doing cardio. I'd probably try at least at the start to get 2000 if not more calories. Evaluate progress and adjust every couple of weeks.

I'm not an advocate of cardio for fat loss. But if you plan on taking in 1600 calories per day, AND low carbing it, I would feel that you'd lose muscle and your physique will "flatten" right out. Add in the cardio and it's a recipe for disaster.

I would train and eat with the intention of building muscle. The increased muscle will automatically boost and rev up your metabolism where you will NEED more calories to keep the furnace burning, building lean mass, accomplishing a nice body recomp.

Good luck with whatever route you decide to take. :tucool:

I started out really close to your where you are at right now. I was at 24% BF at 5'9" and 190 lbs, and worked out for an hour and a half to two hours a day, no cardio. I can't say that I didnt get fantastic results. I put on inches in my chest, legs, arms(everything but calves) and dropped a few inches on my waist. However, after about 6-10 weeks, I really started feeling these results in my joints. Shoulders, elbows, wrists all started taking their toll from all this strain. My general sense of well being started falling off too. I was tired quite a bit, and started having problems gettign motivated to go to the gym every day.

This is probably especially true for someone just starting out. I figure all those "newbie gains" you get in the first few months in the strength and size department are good for your ego, but can put some serious wear and tear on your joints, especially if you are overtraining. I was doing this on 2200 calories somewhat dirty(pre-JSF forums discovery) and 2800 clean calories post JSF(and yes i was losing weight during this time too).

I then finally broke my vow of never doing cardio, and its been great. If you are like me, you hate cardio because of those wind sprints you had to do in high school. Cardio does not have to be that way. Try a liss program in the morning, at your own pace, and see how it makes you feel. A good low intensity workout, along with a good diet, really doesn't have to cause much, if any, muscle loss.

I wonder about your fear of carbs. Have you ever really tried to lose weight by eating clean and working out? For a vast majority of people, carbs are NOT the enemy. They keep you in a sense of well being, which helps keep you motivated to hit that gym even harder. They also help in preventing some of that muscle loss that you seam to fear. Your calorie intake of 1700 seems far too low. High protein is good, but consider adding to your diet, keep hitting the gym hard and see where that takes you.


like i said, i aim to lose 1.5 lbs a week. 1700 calories was to start and i will make adjustments to the diet to keep it in that range regardless of what the calories are. i have tried eating clean, although not working out, with carb type foods and put on weight unless i restrick the calories very low. i have always seemd to feel good with low carbs, but have never tried the cyclic diet. if working out makes me feel the same as it did you, well then i will have to cut back to once a day and just do some cardio in the morning. i will have to experiment with this.

thanks

I view cardio as very key to fat loss.

You send a message to your body to let stored bodyfat go, you don't just sit around and hope that w/a reduction of calories that your body chooses to shed fat instead of burn muscle. (Diet is equally important here!)

The body is KNOWN to prefer to burn lean muscle first while dieting (survival instinct to hold on to fat for energy/warmth with the lack of food), so attention to diet as mentioned above (what the macros are most importantly), workouts, supplements, timing, are all very key. On top of all of those is cardio, responsible for over-riding the body's desire to hold on to bodyfat and burn lean mass instead.

As well, cardio is the best exercise for our most precious muscle, the HEART! I'd never go a day w/out it, and I don't.

~SC~


i am sure cardio will burn up calories and fat, but so will weight training. i wanted to try to put on a little muscle while cutting, or at least maintain. besides, most of the large women in the gym are on those damn treadmills every morning "hogging" them all up. they remain the same no matter how many miles they walk.

Your choice in diet is not a good idea.
You'll find that out very soon when you see your energy levels vanish and you'll crave carbs/sugar like you wouldn't believe.
And i mean uncontrollable cravings.

Your refeed days you'll end up eating too many crap foods because you cant hold back - you'll end up making no progress whatsoever.
Not to mention on a CKD, you're not supposed to go low fat.
I've done that diet before - you will end up worse than when you started, and you will go crazy waiting for the refeed days.
First week you'll be fine and you'll think i'm wrong.
Middle of the 2nd week you'll start wanting the refeed.
3rd week you'll want the refeed day as soon as you start the week.
And it will only get worse every week.

What i suggest is just eat a well rounded diet - read the stickied posts.
I dont care how busy you say your work is - you can still make time for snacks between meals.
Eat a sandwich during your break at work, eat another one during lunch, and then some mixed nuts during your last break.
This will be enough to spread your calories out during the day.

If you stick to what you're planning on doing dietwise you will fail.

:gl:


i checked into the diet some more and you are right about not wanting to go low fat, so im going to make some adjustments and up the fat intake. i have done low carbs before though and felt fine. i guess different people react differently to it.

you dont know my work, and i am sure it is not like yours, and i dont have mini breaks where i can snack all day. i get one lunch break and that is it with no other opportunity to eat. so 4 meals a day is it.

there have been many success stories i have read about ckd diets, so why do you automatically think i will fail?

thanks

I'll back up the "low carbs/low fat is bad" sentiment. As I understand it, in CKD land, you should get a lot of calories from fat. You don't list any fats in what you are planning to eat. Maybe an oversight, but if not and you are truly going low or moderate carbs, get some fats. I've cut on 35-40% fat recently and I didn't feel run down at all. I was getting 70 g carbs on non-lift days and 100 or so on lifting days, so it wasn't ultra low carb, but a good moderate carb plan.

Also, your calories look kind of low to me, but maybe it's because I'm used to doing cardio. I'd probably try at least at the start to get 2000 if not more calories. Evaluate progress and adjust every couple of weeks.

your right, im going to up the fat a little. what percentage of fat calories should i aim for with the rest of the calories being protein and maybe 50 calories a day from carbs?

im going to start the calories off at about 1700 and make adjustments as i go along to keep at losing 1.5 lbs a week. kind of new to this, so it is experimental right now.

thanks

like i said, i aim to lose 1.5 lbs a week. 1700 calories was to start and i will make adjustments to the diet to keep it in that range regardless of what the calories are. i have tried eating clean, although not working out, with carb type foods and put on weight unless i restrick the calories very low. i have always seemd to feel good with low carbs, but have never tried the cyclic diet. if working out makes me feel the same as it did you, well then i will have to cut back to once a day and just do some cardio in the morning. i will have to experiment with this.

thanks
have you ever tried eating clean AND working out?!?!
try that first. seriously.

if you dont work out, then yes, that'd be a good time to cut your carbs....
but doing what you're about to do will be bad, but i'll still watch.

your right, im going to up the fat a little. what percentage of fat calories should i aim for with the rest of the calories being protein and maybe 50 calories a day from carbs?

im going to start the calories off at about 1700 and make adjustments as i go along to keep at losing 1.5 lbs a week. kind of new to this, so it is experimental right now.

thanks

I think you're making a mistake going 1700 to start. I'd advise to go 2200 first, then adjust down if needed, not the other way around.

As for fat, I'd back into it personally off of the protein. Say, 1-1.5 g protein per lb body weight, so 300 g protein. 50 calories carbs isn't a lot, like 12 g carbs a day (standard is 4 kcal per g carb).

So, 200x4 (protein is also 4kcal per g)=800 cals from protein at the floor. If you add your 50 from carbs (too low for me! :) ), that's 850 total. If you subtract that from 2200 which I think you need to start at, you've got 1350 from fat. Divide by 9 kcal per g fat, and you've got 150 g fat. I'd go more toward the 1.5 g protein per lb myself with the fat being lowered, but I've never tried for ketogensis so I'm far from an expert and maybe you want more fat in your case.

You see my point though, don't worry so much about "lean" meats. Or, if you do, supplement with stuff like olive oil, flaxseed oil, fish oil, heavy cream, etc.

I personally also advise you to lift and do cardio and keep carbs in the moderate range (say, 50g - 100 g). Time those carbs mostly around workouts, with maybe a few at breakfast.

If you really want to eat 1700 calories/day try 150g carbs, 150g protein and 75g fat...

That will be a more balanced diet that will give you less muscle loss...
You can still get some low-carb effect if you use smart meal timing. You can eat almost all your carbs before and after workout. And your other meals will be p/f-only.

:gl:

like i said, i aim to lose 1.5 lbs a week. 1700 calories was to start and i will make adjustments to the diet to keep it in that range regardless of what the calories are. i have tried eating clean, although not working out, with carb type foods and put on weight unless i restrick the calories very low. i have always seemd to feel good with low carbs, but have never tried the cyclic diet. if working out makes me feel the same as it did you, well then i will have to cut back to once a day and just do some cardio in the morning. i will have to experiment with this.

thanks

My theory is that for MOST people, a normal amount of clean carbs are going to keep you in a better mood and with better energy levels. Not everyone is like this, but it seems like the "easier" way to start.

Just remember, if things aren't working out perfectly, don't give up. There is always time to try out new ideas. If you go with the low carb thing and it starts making you feel down or tired, try adding some good clean carbs to your diet(maybe upping the calories a bit too). If you go with the carbs and don't see quite the results you want, cut them back a bit. Even if people you talk to believe quite strongly in their methedology, nobody is going to force you to stick with their plan the rest of YOUR life.

i am sure cardio will burn up calories and fat, but so will weight training.

Weight training will not induce a constant state of lipolysis, no.

Your body, your results, your call.

Just offering a personal opinion from the standpoint of
one who has personally assisted 1000's. Only want the best for all
in finding the fastest way from point A to point B. :)

~SC~

- What kind of work do you do that makes it impossible to sneak in a snack for 1-2 minutes a few hours before and/or after lunch? I'm not doubting you, just surprised you couldn't scarf down a protein bar or shake quickly.

- I agree with everyone else, the calories are too low, especially if you plan on lifting 2x/day -- which I'd advise against right now. I believe that can be effective, but not for someone on such a calorie defecit taking in 10g/carbs each day.

- You don't need cardio to cut. That doesn't mean you shouldn't incorporate it if you wish to, but it's certainly not necessary. I've cut with and without it. Personally, I prefer 2-3x/week, intense cardio when cutting. However, some of the guys with the best physiques on this forum never step foot on a treadmill, bike, elliptical, etc.

- I'd highly consider upping your carb intake to some extent. You seem set in your ways, which is fine -- you're encouraged to experiment. I just think you'd be better off adding at least another 40-50g each day.

I'm not an advocate of cardio for fat loss. But if you plan on taking in 1600 calories per day, AND low carbing it, I would feel that you'd lose muscle and your physique will "flatten" right out. Add in the cardio and it's a recipe for disaster.

I would train and eat with the intention of building muscle. The increased muscle will automatically boost and rev up your metabolism where you will NEED more calories to keep the furnace burning, building lean mass, accomplishing a nice body recomp.

Good luck with whatever route you decide to take. :tucool:

I sooo agree!!!.....Im not an expert by any means...but this approach is working great for me as well

Weight training and clean food really had reved up my metabolism
At the beginning I cut my caloried to like nothing (1500) and was doing cardio.... and I did loose weight, but ended up looking skinny and flat.

Now Im at 2200+ of clean food and no cardio and Im maintaining!
I upped my carbs to almost 200 grams and im feeling so much better.
I don't have the cravings, Im not even looking forward to cheat meal.
My dessert now is 1/2 brown rice and some yogurt with cinnamon and splenda, and it feels like a cheat, but its healthy.
I just feel that I can live like this... it doesn't feel like a "diet"

Some cardio is good for the heart, but I don't only rely solely on it for weight/fat loss....

Thanks for all the input guys. Just got my training manual last night, Big Beyond Belief, by Optimum Training Systems, and am going to give it a try. They also have some guidelines for the low carb cyclic diet in their. There is also a book on it called The Anabolic Diet by Dr. Mario Di Pasquale which I need to check into getting that the book recommends.

I have been low carbing it about a week and a half now along with a little weight training to get the muscles over the soreness and have lost 4lbs, which I am sure is some water weight This is a little more than what I wanted, but I am going to wait another week before I make any adjustments to the calories. I’m going to do my first official weigh in Thursday and start their twice a day routine and do their diet along with it and I will keep my results posted every couple weeks and see what happens. In the book, it said the cyclic low carb diet will cut fat off and also build muscle, so we will see.

I’ve had the carbs cut out for about 10 days now and am still feeling great!
Wish me luck.