I've been working out consistantly for 2 months and eating well (I think). I'm 144 lbs at 5'7.

I figured I'de eat at around 2000 calories so I could gain muscle on newbie gains and lose a little fat. For those saying that 2000 isn't enough, then I should have lost fat, which was not the case at all. I'm so frustrated. I've been worrying about this and have tried for years, and I am really trying my hardest.

Could you all tell me how many calories I should be eating? I know i'll get enough protein - I have all the supplements/tuna/etc. I just need something to actually change for once.

Previously I was terrified to bulk up..I didn't want a larger frame, I just didn't want my body to look like jell-o.

As far as I know, I work really hard at the gym. Do my sets to failure, keep the reps within the 6-8 range. I just think it's a mental stigma where, if you're not losing fat and you're working so hard, then invariably you'll get fatter if you eat more. At this point i'm so fed up, that I'll risk getting fat just to see some sort of change.

So judging from these pictures: at 5'7 and 144 lbs, and lifting regularly, how many calories should I be taking in? Although the first pic might hint that I have pronounced chest muscles, that is not the case..they are fatty.

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2264/use1wu7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4235/use2wq1.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1677/use3gx6.jpg
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7991/use4xi3.jpg

How old are you?

A few problems I see here:

1. too few kcal.. you haven't lost fat because your body has adjusted to this low amount.

2. Training to failure... don't do that every single time you have probably overtrained your body, and that is going backward (instead of gaining muscle you might be maintaining or worse, losing it!)... especially on a low calorie diet.

3. Fear of getting fat by eating more. No, that won't happen, if you keep it clean and increase your kcal slowly (in other words dont jump from 2000 to 3500 in a day, increase by like 250kcal every week and track your progress). if you increase them slowly chances are, if you gain weight along the process, that weight will be lean mass. And, in the process, you will "reset" your metabolism to higher amounts. But again it has to be clean calories.

Like you I was afraid to gain fat by increasing kcal because I was was seeing no progress. I started at 137 lbs, 8% bf, and like 1800-2000 kcal a day, and increased kcal slowly to 3500 now.. and I am now 165 lbs, and maybe 11-12 % bf?.

Also posting what your diet looks like and training would help others to critique (i am not good at this).

I'm 21.

1. If my body had adjusted to a low amount of calories - I should be gaining muscle. Simple conservation of energy. Maybe it's just so slow that I can't tell?

2. I've read that training to failure with few reps is the best thing you can do for muscle gain. If I'm not doing it to where I can't do another rep, what's the point?

3. Makes sense. But at 8% bodyfat, It would be hard to imagine not being content with your body. Right now, if I raised my bf by 4% like you did..I don't even want to think about what I'de look like.

2. I've read that training to failure with few reps is the best thing you can do for muscle gain. If I'm not doing it to where I can't do another rep, what's the point?



I think you have a lot of misconceptions, but few reps for muscle gain seems furthest off. You are likely building some strength, if your volume isn't too high, but big muscle gains are unlikely. I did something similar to you when I started, and while I did see strength gains, I wasn't doing enough volume in terms or sets/reps to get muscle gains. I now shoot for 24 to 36 (rarely up to 50) in terms of reps times sets per lift(reps*sets=24 to 36). Examples 3x8, 5x5, 10x3, 6x6, etc.

I think you would do well following a full body Waterbury system as he is pretty explicit and almost everyone has great results, but even just read his set/rep bible as a start.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=05-091-training

The link says I ought to do 36-50 reps in total for one exercise. How many exercises should I do for, say, chest?

The link says I ought to do 36-50 reps in total for one exercise. How many exercises should I do for, say, chest?
The hypertrophy table says for a single muscle group in a single workout you should do 36-50 total reps with 70-80% of your 1-RM (i.e. use a weight that you'll fail with within 8-12 reps), taking 1-2 minutes rest between sets. You should do this 2-4x per week. As a beginner, 2x per week is definitely good enough.

You can split the volume up over a couple compound exercises -- I wouldn't use more than three, however, with two probably being optimal.

So, to keep it very simple, your chest routine might look like:

MONDAY

Incline DB Bench Press: 3 x 8
Weighted Dips: 3 x 8

THURSDAY

Incline DB Bench Press: 3 x 8
Flat DB Bench Press: 3 x 8

Keeping a few reps from failure on each set (i.e. use your 10-RM instead of your 8-RM) but make sure to progressively increase the weight over time.

To continue to build your routine, you might add two back exercises to each of those days following the same set / rep perscription. If you're more advanced and recognize that Waterbury likes antagonist pairings and alternating sets, you could then implement this, cutting your rest down to about 20-40 seconds between sets. Legs would then, likely, be worked on Tuesday and Friday and you might add 1-2 suitable isolation exercises at the end of each day.

After so long, I don't consider myself a beginner anymore, and I don't think that routine is enough.

Nothing happened? Have you made any strength gains in the last 2 months? I've found that logging how much I lift and then trying to beat or at least match that on my next workout really helps me. I don't walk around the gym with a pen and paper, I just write everything down when I get back to my PC.

After so long, I don't consider myself a beginner anymore, and I don't think that routine is enough.

I think it's time for a friendly reminder to check your ego at the door. You're getting solid recommendations and refuting them yet many of your assumptions are off. You've made no gains so who's right? There's no magic missing element keeping you from achieving your goals. It's a simple matter of something being awry with diet or lifting or both.

Try these calculators (http://www.freedieting.com/tools/weight_gain_calculator.htm)

FOr example, for bulking, at your stats I'd be looking at something more like 2700 a day. Just to maintain, assuming 3 workouts a week, you should be maintaining around 2200 daily.

I'd start by upping my cals to at least 2500.

After so long, I don't consider myself a beginner anymore, and I don't think that routine is enough.

Maybe not enough for your whole body, but plenty for your pecs. Start using your head and pay attention to the good advice that has been provided.

After so long, I don't consider myself a beginner anymore, and I don't think that routine is enough.

2 months? So long? Seriously?

Waterbury is a full body workout guy. So, you are hitting muscle groups multiple times a week in his plans. In one workout, you might not get the volume you are thinking you need, but over a week, the volume is generally plenty high with more frequency.

Also, you've said yourself basically what you are doing isn't giving you the results you want. Maybe you are doing too much right now, especially for the calories you are consuming, so your body can't actually do much more than repair itself from the work you are giving it, and isn't growing. Especially if you are constantly using failure training.

Sometimes people can't get their minds around the "less is more" concept. It's good to want to work hard. Work hard when you are in the gym. However, without anabolics, you can overwork yourself, especially when you don't have a good base. Some of Waterbury's higher frequency programs he recommends up to two years constant training before you should even attempt them, and then you have to eat like a horse and do a lot of recovery work.

Okay. I'm sorry I was dismissing the helpful advice. I am just very frustrated and I didn't think doing *less* would be helpful. I'll try eating more and doing what was suggested.

Thanks.

Nothing happened? Have you made any strength gains in the last 2 months? I've found that logging how much I lift and then trying to beat or at least match that on my next workout really helps me. I don't walk around the gym with a pen and paper, I just write everything down when I get back to my PC.


I think I was able to lift a little bit more for my chest workout..but other than that, no.

This thread is lacking a lot of information.

Are those progress pics? Or were they all taken the same day?

What measurements did you take to determine that you haven't made any progress? Did you measure your waist and other body parts? Do you have calipers or a body fat scale? Do you record how many sets and reps of each weight you've been using, and how far you have been able to progress?

What does your diet look like? What foods do you eat and when do you eat them?

If you don't want a larger frame, then at 144 pounds, I'd recommend 2100 to 2300 calories as a starting point. This should approximately maintain your weight while reducing your body fat percentage, giving you more muscle definition without extra size. It may be a slow process.

Because of your impatience, I might suggest that you decide to take the plunge on a more agressive cutting program (down to maybe 1500 calories) or agressive bulking program (up to maybe 2800 calories). This way, your progress will be more noticeable, which will be more encouraging for you. Either one would be a good choice from your starting point.

You might need to more closely investigate your macronutrient makeup and your meal timing. Perhaps you are eating too many carbs, or not at the right time, or your diet is too low in fat.

Please post the answers to the above questions so that people can offer more specialized help.

I don't take measurements, i'm simply going from the mirror and how much I can lift. I don't have calipers or a bodyfat scale, but i'm sure my bodyfat is exactly the same as it was.

My diet usually consists of

1cup of skim milk w/ whey protein

2 cans of tuna (150 calories each)

2 loaves of soy protein pita bread (240 calories each) (22 g of protein each)

ground beef for dinner


I'll probably have a snack here or there during the day. All in all, my calories reach about 2000. However, i might not be gaining weight because the majority of my day centers around walking.


I am a college student and have to be a bit frugal with money..but those things are high protein and relatively cost-conscious.

Why is the timing of eating important? I usually don't discriminate between when I can eat. I bought some peanut butter for the fat part, maybe I wasn't eating enough of that?


I always thought I should be cutting, but at 144 lbs..I don't think I want to get any lighter. It takes alot to pass the mental apprehension in wondering if you'll put on more fat when you're already flabby, but i feel like i've tried everything and nothing works. I'm going to try the 2800 calorie thing.

I don't take measurements, i'm simply going from the mirror and how much I can lift. I don't have calipers or a bodyfat scale, but i'm sure my bodyfat is exactly the same as it was.

My diet usually consists of

1cup of skim milk w/ whey protein

2 cans of tuna (150 calories each)

2 loaves of soy protein pita bread (240 calories each) (22 g of protein each)

ground beef for dinner


I'll probably have a snack here or there during the day. All in all, my calories reach about 2000. However, i might not be gaining weight because the majority of my day centers around walking.


I am a college student and have to be a bit frugal with money..but those things are high protein and relatively cost-conscious.

Why is the timing of eating important? I usually don't discriminate between when I can eat. I bought some peanut butter for the fat part, maybe I wasn't eating enough of that?


I always thought I should be cutting, but at 144 lbs..I don't think I want to get any lighter. It takes alot to pass the mental apprehension in wondering if you'll put on more fat when you're already flabby, but i feel like i've tried everything and nothing works. I'm going to try the 2800 calorie thing.


no you werent gaining any weight and not losing any weight because your body was struggling just to stay alive.. honestly I know girls that eat more then you were eating...
to be brutely honest I wouldnt be suprised if in the past 2 months you actually lost muscle.. at 144 lbs I would slowly increase your calories by a couple hundred a week till you hit at least 3000.. your obsession with trying to stay lean is doing you more harm then good.. if you stay somewhat clean with your diet and follow a good plan I doubt you will really put on any fat.. if you can stay around 8% bodyfat and put on 20+ lbs then you might start to look alright..

here is some reading material

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_2.htm

and once you finish reading that punch some numbers into this calculator



according to my calculations you should be eating around 3200 calories a day.. just have some common sense and go into it slowly (couple hundred calories a week)

your not gonna turn into a huge meathead by following this so dont worry about that... it takes years of consistant working out to get "huge"..

if you can stay around 8% bodyfat and put on 20+ lbs then you might start to look alright..


I think you might of got my body fat % confused with the second poster's. Mine is not at 8%. And I was eating as much as I was hungry. I wasn't losing any weight, and i wasn't gaining any weight. You said you wouldn't be surprised if I lost muscle, however if I wasn't losing any weight, that would mean I was gaining fat (if i was losing muscle) on a diet that you said was barely enabling me to survive. To me, that doesn't make sense, but i'm not an expert on this stuff.

3000 calories isn't a bit high for my weight? I don't have that much lean muscle and I am trying to avoid putting on more fat.

here is some reading material

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/masseating_rl_2.htm

and once you finish reading that punch some numbers into this calculator



according to my calculations you should be eating around 3200 calories a day.. just have some common sense and go into it slowly (couple hundred calories a week)

your not gonna turn into a huge meathead by following this so dont worry about that... it takes years of consistant working out to get "huge"..


Thanks for the article. I just want to put in some personal input without riling anyone up. I am very appreciative of all the comments. But, to me, it seems that 3200 calories is so much that I will have to struggle to eat that much. Now, my friends who have gained muscle through weight lifting are much more ignorant about nutrition than you guys are. I doubt that they were struggling to eat out of their comfort-zone like I should be doing with the 3200 calories. So, why have they been gaining?

Read the stickies in the beginner's forum. Here's a link to the two posts I added at the end of the "nutrition for fat loss" that explain why the amount of protein is not the most important factor in your diet.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?p=366057#post366057

If you're uncomfortable eating 3200 calories, then don't eat that much. With that amount of calories, your muscle gains will be quicker, but you will add a significant amount of fat.

Read the stickies in the beginner's forum. Here's a link to the two posts I added at the end of the "nutrition for fat loss" that explain why the amount of protein is not the most important factor in your diet.

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?p=366057#post366057

If you're uncomfortable eating 3200 calories, then don't eat that much. With that amount of calories, your muscle gains will be quicker, but you will add a significant amount of fat.

Add a significant amount of fat? Um, it might, it might not.

As I said in my first post I started at 137 lbs, rather emaciated, same height,, and about the same number of kcal he is eating. And slowly increased kcal to like 3500 today, eating mostly according to John Berardi's principles (no junk food, low GI carbs, didnt mix carbs with fats unless it was vegetables, etc.).

Here's a pic taken 3 weeks ago when I was around 160 lbs I think: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=31671. Did I put on a significat amount of fat?

Of course it is an individual response thing.. but as a former fat guy when I was a teenager, it is not like I have special genetics.

Do you have a picture of you at 137 lbs? I'm curious to know what your bodyfat was. I hear it's easier to pack on fat when you already have alot on your frame...this is problematic for my bulk.

Thanks.

Add a significant amount of fat? Um, it might, it might not.

As I said in my first post I started at 137 lbs, rather emaciated, same height,, and about the same number of kcal he is eating. And slowly increased kcal to like 3500 today, eating mostly according to John Berardi's principles (no junk food, low GI carbs, didnt mix carbs with fats unless it was vegetables, etc.).

Here's a pic taken 3 weeks ago when I was around 160 lbs I think: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=31671. Did I put on a significat amount of fat?

Of course it is an individual response thing.. but as a former fat guy when I was a teenager, it is not like I have special genetics.
When a person is eating 1000 calories per day over what it takes to maintain that person's weight, not all of those calories will go towards building muscle.

I'm not disagreeing that MOST of those calories could very well be going towards lean body mass increases, but eating at that amount of caloric excess will not allow a person to maintain the same body fat percentage. In the link you directed me to, you said you went from 8% to 12% body fat. That's a significant amount of fat, yes.

Direlect wants to reduce his body fat percentage, not gain size. For that, he doesn't need a lot of extra calories.

Removed because i dislike to show this pic to everyone on the Internet.

When a person is eating 1000 calories per day over what it takes to maintain that person's weight, not all of those calories will go towards building muscle.

I'm not disagreeing that MOST of those calories could very well be going towards lean body mass increases, but eating at that amount of caloric excess will not allow a person to maintain the same body fat percentage. In the link you directed me to, you said you went from 8% to 12% body fat. That's a significant amount of fat, yes.

Direlect wants to reduce his body fat percentage, not gain size. For that, he doesn't need a lot of extra calories.

I get your point now. You are right it probably won't reduce his body fat % if he eats over 3000 kcal a day (unless he puts on a lot of lbm so that the % actually goes down).

But I still maintain my point that he currently is eating too few kcal for the amount of exercise he is doing and that it might very well be what causes him to plateau.

Here. The location and lighting are different that the pic you saw in the other post, but you get the idea. I barely had 12 inches arms in this pic.



Former fat guy? You shredded down pretty well. You look quite good in the 160s, too (from your other post). Your base was good in the sense that you were really lean, but I do not have that advantage.

Add a significant amount of fat? Um, it might, it might not.

As I said in my first post I started at 137 lbs, rather emaciated, same height,, and about the same number of kcal he is eating. And slowly increased kcal to like 3500 today, eating mostly according to John Berardi's principles (no junk food, low GI carbs, didnt mix carbs with fats unless it was vegetables, etc.).

Here's a pic taken 3 weeks ago when I was around 160 lbs I think: http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=31671. Did I put on a significat amount of fat?

Of course it is an individual response thing.. but as a former fat guy when I was a teenager, it is not like I have special genetics.


exactly.. dont eat crap and dont just just jump into eating that much.. if you go slowly your body will adapt.. your body will also need more food as it grows..
obviously it might be hard to eat at first but if you just keep doing it you'll find it easier.. also eat often.. I'm not saying try to eat 1000+ calories in one sitting.. the easiest way to get in the extra calories is to use shakes.

1 - chocolate protein + egg whites + ground up oatmeal
2 - chocolate protein + egg whites + 2 table spoons of olive oil + peanut butter

that would manageable on a budget

for ppl that dont have much of a budget a great one is

half a cup of water
a cup of egg whites
handful of pecans
chocolate protein
one serving (3 teaspoons) of greens+
a bit of ice

throw it in the blender for a bit (not too long.. you want the pecans to not be too ground up)... tastes sorta like turtles candys.. and loaded with calories :tu:

When a person is eating 1000 calories per day over what it takes to maintain that person's weight, not all of those calories will go towards building muscle.

I'm not disagreeing that MOST of those calories could very well be going towards lean body mass increases, but eating at that amount of caloric excess will not allow a person to maintain the same body fat percentage. In the link you directed me to, you said you went from 8% to 12% body fat. That's a significant amount of fat, yes.

Direlect wants to reduce his body fat percentage, not gain size. For that, he doesn't need a lot of extra calories.

not to be rude.. but if that guy loses any more fat and gets a tan he would fit in pretty well at an African refugee camp..
I know I might be coming off as harsh but he needs to put on muscle to lose the fat..

I understand your frustrations. If your going to spend time lifting you want to see at least some results.
Here is a link to some calculators that should get you going in the right direction. Everybody is different so you may need to experiment a little.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calculators.htm

Former fat guy? You shredded down pretty well. You look quite good in the 160s, too (from your other post). Your base was good in the sense that you were really lean, but I do not have that advantage.

Direlect, looking at the pictures you posted and reading all of your posts I have to say that I think you have body image issues and possibly an eating disorder... you think you're fat? you are NOT fat, you might have a little bit of body fat, but you don't have that much... you need to realize that our bodies NEED a certain number of calories & nutrients just to run our normal body functions... if you add weight training to your normal activities you need to add calories in the forms of protien, carbs & fats to fuel muscle gains... while I don't agree that you need to go as high as 3500 calories you do need more than what you are currently consuming... when you eat too few calories your body stops using fat as fuel because fat is a long term energy source... if you are not eating enough your body will determine that you must not be able to find enough food (this goes back to our cave man days... our genetics have not changed since then) and because of that lack of food your body will horde the fat you already have so that you will have the energy you need to stay alive and it will start using your muscle as fuel (our muscle is considered a short term energy source and is burned away much more easily that our fat is) to keep from burning your muscle away and to start burning the fat away you need to be eating enough throughout the day to fuel your activities... when you are not eating enough your body will pack away anything you give it so that you can 'survive', so you could gain fat and lose muscle by not eating enough... if you are only eating the items you listed then you are not eating 2000 calories, you are far below that... of course you might not have listed everything, but if you did you are starving yourself and will end up looking like a POW if you keep going like this.

please read the sticky posts in the beginers forum (like Guava suggested), they shed a lot of light on this subject. I would also suggest reading the Body-for-Life book... this book goes into why meal timing is important and how it boosts your matabolism by eating enough, often enough:gl:

My diet usually consists of

1cup of skim milk w/ whey protein

2 cans of tuna (150 calories each)

2 loaves of soy protein pita bread (240 calories each) (22 g of protein each)

ground beef for dinner


I'll probably have a snack here or there during the day. All in all, my calories reach about 2000. However, i might not be gaining weight because the majority of my day centers around walking.



I see no vegetables and very little EFAs (healthy fats). Get some in there :) Fruits are good, too.

Maybe I should clarify that right now I am at 3500 kcal.

First I gradually increased from around 2000 kcal to 2700-2800 kcal and gained a few pounds there. Then I plateaued, increased kcal to around 3200-3300, gained a few pounds, then increased again to around 3500 kcal.

It was a progressive thing. as my lean mass and metabolism, went up, I had to increase the calories.

My diet usually consists of

1cup of skim milk w/ whey protein

2 cans of tuna (150 calories each)

2 loaves of soy protein pita bread (240 calories each) (22 g of protein each)

ground beef for dinner


I'll probably have a snack here or there during the day.

Dude, your whole day IS a SNACK!!

Eat more, lift more, gain more. Squat more, clean more, row more, bench more, dead more.

Direlect, looking at the pictures you posted and reading all of your posts I have to say that I think you have body image issues and possibly an eating disorder... you think you're fat? you are NOT fat, you might have a little bit of body fat, but you don't have that much... you need to realize that our bodies NEED a certain number of calories & nutrients just to run our normal body functions... if you add weight training to your normal activities you need to add calories in the forms of protien, carbs & fats to fuel muscle gains... while I don't agree that you need to go as high as 3500 calories you do need more than what you are currently consuming... when you eat too few calories your body stops using fat as fuel because fat is a long term energy source... if you are not eating enough your body will determine that you must not be able to find enough food (this goes back to our cave man days... our genetics have not changed since then) and because of that lack of food your body will horde the fat you already have so that you will have the energy you need to stay alive and it will start using your muscle as fuel (our muscle is considered a short term energy source and is burned away much more easily that our fat is) to keep from burning your muscle away and to start burning the fat away you need to be eating enough throughout the day to fuel your activities... when you are not eating enough your body will pack away anything you give it so that you can 'survive', so you could gain fat and lose muscle by not eating enough... if you are only eating the items you listed then you are not eating 2000 calories, you are far below that... of course you might not have listed everything, but if you did you are starving yourself and will end up looking like a POW if you keep going like this.

please read the sticky posts in the beginers forum (like Guava suggested), they shed a lot of light on this subject. I would also suggest reading the Body-for-Life book... this book goes into why meal timing is important and how it boosts your matabolism by eating enough, often enough:gl:


I also read your previous posts. In most of them you say you are skinny fat, fat, fat boobs, fat midsection. In most of them you say you don't see progress at what you are currently doing..

If you don't see progress now it won't magically happen over the next few months if you keep doing the same thing.

I also agree that you have the "former fat guy syndrome". For the hell of it I might take pics of me later on pinching my belly like you are doing. I bet I'll pinch as much skin as you are doing , if not more.

Point is, clean up your diet, increase the kcal a little, say 250 kcal and post what your new diet looks like here so we can analyze it. Then do it for 2 weeks, and track your progress. Even if you were (and I was) wrong, you won't get fat or become back to what you were.

And it won't hurt to try.

Remember, nothing is overnight.

Remember, nothing is
overnight.

And 2 months isn't much longer than overnight :)

Direlect, looking at the pictures you posted and reading all of your posts I have to say that I think you have body image issues and possibly an eating disorder... you think you're fat? you are NOT fat, you might have a little bit of body fat, but you don't have that much... you need to realize that our bodies NEED a certain number of calories & nutrients just to run our normal body functions... if you add weight training to your normal activities you need to add calories in the forms of protien, carbs & fats to fuel muscle gains... while I don't agree that you need to go as high as 3500 calories you do need more than what you are currently consuming... when you eat too few calories your body stops using fat as fuel because fat is a long term energy source... if you are not eating enough your body will determine that you must not be able to find enough food (this goes back to our cave man days... our genetics have not changed since then) and because of that lack of food your body will horde the fat you already have so that you will have the energy you need to stay alive and it will start using your muscle as fuel (our muscle is considered a short term energy source and is burned away much more easily that our fat is) to keep from burning your muscle away and to start burning the fat away you need to be eating enough throughout the day to fuel your activities... when you are not eating enough your body will pack away anything you give it so that you can 'survive', so you could gain fat and lose muscle by not eating enough... if you are only eating the items you listed then you are not eating 2000 calories, you are far below that... of course you might not have listed everything, but if you did you are starving yourself and will end up looking like a POW if you keep going like this.

please read the sticky posts in the beginers forum (like Guava suggested), they shed a lot of light on this subject. I would also suggest reading the Body-for-Life book... this book goes into why meal timing is important and how it boosts your matabolism by eating enough, often enough:gl:


I am(was) eating 2000 calories - I'm counting them on the computer. The items I listed add up to 2000, i'm 100% sure of this. I don't considering eating 2000 calories "starving"...i mean i'm not hungry at the end of the day..but maybe you're right in the sense that I'm not eating enough. I'm going to increase them, anyhow. That's why I came to ask for input after seeing no results. I'll look into the e-book.

I also read your previous posts. In most of them you say you are skinny fat, fat, fat boobs, fat midsection. In most of them you say you don't see progress at what you are currently doing..

If you don't see progress now it won't magically happen over the next few months if you keep doing the same thing.

I also agree that you have the "former fat guy syndrome". For the hell of it I might take pics of me later on pinching my belly like you are doing. I bet I'll pinch as much skin as you are doing , if not more.

Point is, clean up your diet, increase the kcal a little, say 250 kcal and post what your new diet looks like here so we can analyze it. Then do it for 2 weeks, and track your progress. Even if you were (and I was) wrong, you won't get fat or become back to what you were.

And it won't hurt to try.

Remember, nothing is overnight.

I understand. But I have been putting in a great deal of effort..and I feel that 2 months is enough time to gauge how a routine is going. Im inreasing the calories, but there's so many what-ifs? What if I'm not exercising hard enough/the rights exercises..etc. For example, I did shoulders today, but maybe my form was off.

I just want to see some progress. It's getting harder and harder waking up at 6:30 every morning when you have a full semester of classes..and nothing changes. I'm not about to give up without a fight, but some positive feedback in the way of some semblance of change would be really nice.

I understand. But I have been putting in a great deal of effort..and I feel that 2 months is enough time to gauge how a routine is going. Im inreasing the calories, but there's so many what-ifs? What if I'm not exercising hard enough/the rights exercises..etc. For example, I did shoulders today, but maybe my form was off.

I just want to see some progress. It's getting harder and harder waking up at 6:30 every morning when you have a full semester of classes..and nothing changes. I'm not about to give up without a fight, but some positive feedback in the way of some semblance of change would be really nice.

Too bad you don't have the money, you seem like you need a trainer to walk you through each workout and each meal.

Is plenty of good advice in this thread. I don't think anyone here is going to try to convince you each and every day that what they are saying is right. You are going to have to just committ to it.

1. Slowly increase your calories, lot of good ideas in this thread and links how to do it. You aren't going to increase much muscle mass if you don't given your activity level and current calorie levels.

2. I suggest following a workout plan exactly as described by someone. That will give you the structure you need and make sure the volume is right for muscle gains. Look into the ones that have been linked to in this thread, or in the stickies, or check out Chad Waterbury ones at T-Nation. Art of Waterbury is good one if you just want to jump into something. http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=693794

This isn't all that hard and you are in a good position with your body to put on some mass. Calories are key for you. You already workout so why not use that time and make the best of it. You could see results in a month and if you bump the calories to the levels suggested huge results in two months.

Not much more that can be said. Either increase the calories and see results or don't.

Not much more that can be said. Either increase the calories and see results or don't.


Exactly. That's what I'll do.

I doubt that they were struggling to eat out of their comfort-zone like I should be doing with the 3200 calories. So, why have they been gaining?

1. It is darn easy to eat 3k+ calories if you don't eat that healthy.
2. They are probably putting on a fair deal of fat. If you have a fair bit of muscle... extra fat often makes you look bigger and it is easy to assume that is muscle when often it isnt.

1. It is darn easy to eat 3k+ calories if you don't eat that healthy.


Actually, it's not too hard even eating healthy. Just add lots of fats like nuts or even take oils by the tbs full (olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc). Mix oil or heavy cream in your protein shakes (not necessarily ones around workouts, though). Eat more PB :) Eat some whole eggs.

Don't fear healthy fats as a way to get some calories in your diet without a huge volume of food.

Actually, it's not too hard even eating healthy. Just add lots of fats like nuts or even take oils by the tbs full (olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc). Mix oil or heavy cream in your protein shakes (not necessarily ones around workouts, though). Eat more PB :) Eat some whole eggs.

Don't fear healthy fats as a way to get some calories in your diet without a huge volume of food.

exactly.. I was eating over 4000 calories a day and still eating very clean..

Is there any information someone can point me to that documents the benefits of "clean" eating. I'm not even sure I understand what "clean eating" is. It sounds intuitive, but really, is 200 calories of a hamburger "less clean" than 200 calories of tuna because one packs more protein and less fat per calorie? What does it matter if at the end of the day your body is getting enough protein to build muscle..it will just store the spare grams of protein from the tuna the same way as if it would store the spare fat from the hamburger. Right?

Regarding Clean Eating:

Clean eating, in my eyes, means eating foods that have high amounts of nutrients (such as vegetables, fruits, whole wheat ), foods that provide all the fats I need (mono, poly and saturated) and good sources of protein (meat, egg, beans, etc.). Avoid trans fat. There is naturally occuring trans fat in many meats. This is not to be confused with hydrogenated oils which should be avoided at all costs. This includes deep fried foods.

The funny part is that it's mostly calories that make up the gain or loss of muscle and fat. Once you meet your requirements of vitamins, minerals and Essential Fatty Acids (EFAs) there really isn't a lot of difference between a greasy hamburger and the equivalent calories from coconut oil, chicken breast and rice.

Eating clean to gain less weight while bulking is a false statement. You will gain less fat while you bulk by ensuring you don't overeat. However, this isn't an invitation to go eat crap all day long. You need to make sure you get fruits and veggies, EFAs and good sources of protein.

Best way to get lots of calories is a blender. Add oats, protein, fruit, fats, cottage cheese, whatever you want, then blend and drink. You can easily make 400-1200 calorie shakes that have great macros, contain a fair amount of vitamins and that are cheap to make.

Regarding Clean Eating:

Clean eating, in my eyes, means eating foods that have high amounts of nutrients (such as vegetables, fruits, whole wheat ), foods that provide all the fats I need (mono, poly and saturated) and good sources of protein (meat, egg, beans, etc.). Avoid trans fat. There is naturally occuring trans fat in many meats. This is not to be confused with hydrogenated oils which should be avoided at all costs. This includes deep fried foods.

The funny part is that it's mostly calories that make up the gain or loss of muscle and fat. Once you meet your requirements of vitamins, minerals and Essential Fatty Acids (EFAs) there really isn't a lot of difference between a greasy hamburger and the equivalent calories from coconut oil, chicken breast and rice.

Eating clean to gain less weight while bulking is a false statement. You will gain less fat while you bulk by ensuring you don't overeat. However, this isn't an invitation to go eat crap all day long. You need to make sure you get fruits and veggies, EFAs and good sources of protein.

Best way to get lots of calories is a blender. Add oats, protein, fruit, fats, cottage cheese, whatever you want, then blend and drink. You can easily make 400-1200 calorie shakes that have great macros, contain a fair amount of vitamins and that are cheap to make.

That clears up quite a bit. Thanks.

Regarding Clean Eating:

Clean eating, in my eyes, means eating foods that have high amounts of nutrients (such as vegetables, fruits, whole wheat ), foods that provide all the fats I need (mono, poly and saturated) and good sources of protein (meat, egg, beans, etc.). Avoid trans fat. There is naturally occuring trans fat in many meats. This is not to be confused with hydrogenated oils which should be avoided at all costs. This includes deep fried foods.

The funny part is that it's mostly calories that make up the gain or loss of muscle and fat. Once you meet your requirements of vitamins, minerals and Essential Fatty Acids (EFAs) there really isn't a lot of difference between a greasy hamburger and the equivalent calories from coconut oil, chicken breast and rice.

Eating clean to gain less weight while bulking is a false statement. You will gain less fat while you bulk by ensuring you don't overeat. However, this isn't an invitation to go eat crap all day long. You need to make sure you get fruits and veggies, EFAs and good sources of protein.

Best way to get lots of calories is a blender. Add oats, protein, fruit, fats, cottage cheese, whatever you want, then blend and drink. You can easily make 400-1200 calorie shakes that have great macros, contain a fair amount of vitamins and that are cheap to make.

while this might be true IMO its better to avoid "junk" at all cost.. its better to develop good eating habits (especially when you are just starting off).. if you are "cheating" every day its gonna be that much harder to stay clean when you wanna get really ripped later on..
For me I have frozen blueberries everyday. They are like candy for me and so it keeps me sane.

Actually, it's not too hard even eating healthy. Just add lots of fats like nuts or even take oils by the tbs full (olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc). Mix oil or heavy cream in your protein shakes (not necessarily ones around workouts, though). Eat more PB :) Eat some whole eggs.

Don't fear healthy fats as a way to get some calories in your diet without a huge volume of food.

I of course completely agree, but remembering back to when I started this whole thing. That wasn't the case. I now eat 3.5-4k of almost entirely healthy calories (minus vacation and a few sweets a week and perhaps 1 meal out with friends). My diet tends to be pretty high in fat 30-40%. But it is all from nuts, pb, olive oil, or meat. I would still contend that eating junk food and hitting 3-4k cals is a much easier affair purely because it requires 0 effort. Most beginners are not use to putting much thought if any into their food choices. So initially the task of eating big and healthy is tough. Just my 2 cents from my experiences.

while this might be true IMO its better to avoid "junk" at all cost.. its better to develop good eating habits (especially when you are just starting off).. if you are "cheating" every day its gonna be that much harder to stay clean when you wanna get really ripped later on..
For me I have frozen blueberries everyday. They are like candy for me and so it keeps me sane.

The tendency with almost all junk food is to have a disproportionately high amount of carbs and fats in regards to protein. The carbs also tend to be simple carbs that promote high insulin response.

From a perspective of good eating habits I agree with you 100%. Junk food has no traits that surpass clean food, and so should be avoided.
However, we all love our sugar and grease...

This thread is kinda whiney (sp?). :(

Based on the pics you posted, you're not fat. You're soft. Actually, I can't even tell if you're really soft based on the creepy 'grab skin' pictures you posted; that's what you were demonstrating right? I think you're more skinnny than anything else. That's a distinction you need to make to tune your nutrition. The absence of apparent muscle mass does not default you to a 'fat' category. Your initial approach was based on 'obese' antitodes. That's why it didn't work - due to the fact that you're not obese. You've just gotta eat more, lift progressively, and then go from there. A lot of this fitness stuff is two steps forward one step back. It took a big ass rock to sculpt the statue of David...get to huskier, then chisel down.

alot of this fitness stuff is two steps forward one step back. It took a big ass rock to sculpt the statue of David...get to huskier, then chisel down.


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