When I move I want to take up a new sport. I feel like it is a good time to try something new and different. So I have decided that I want to begin taking karate classes. Should be a lot fun and help me with my overall fitness, flexibility, stability, everything.

For right now though, I was wondering if anyone does karate/martial arts and has any advice for me in looking for the right classes to start with. Also, are there any good websites that demonstrate some basic karate moves? I know that I would be a complete newbie with anything like this, but you have to start somewhere and I would like to practice some basics.

Thanks for the help.

My wife and I have been taking Karate in a Kyokushin spin-off dojo for about 5 years and I really enjoy it. It has done great for my health in general and now it's even something I can share with my kids (my 4 yr old daughter is starting).

The best advice is to use the free trial class most places offer and try the class, get on the mat and train with the people. It is the only way to get a good feel the class, the students and the instructors.

There are numerous styles of karate to chose from: some very tradionnal, some not, some include contact sparring some don't, etc. So a little research on the style prior to visiting the dojo would help put things in perspective.

But even within the same styles, different teachers will give a very different class: some are open to including outside influence material, some don't, some make sure to include exercises (basic conditioning like push-ups, sit-ups, jumpings jacks) others focus more on karate techniques only, some include self-defense, some don't, some promote tournament participation others don't... it's a very mixed bag out there so make yourself a list describing what you are looking for and take your time chosing, specialy if you plan on doing this for a while.

Good luck!

Research research RESEARCH your school before you sign a contract!!!

There are sooooo many crappy schools out there!!! Pay $50, get your yellow belt. Pay $75, get your orange belt. Pay $100, get your green belt. etc etc etc. Uh uh. Higher belt testings do normally cost a little more (at least with my school - more intensive/longer tests), but watch out for what looks like a pay-for-your-belt scheme.

I really dont know *how* to find a good school. I lucked out myself, and just asked my Master who was a good teacher where I moved. What city are you moving to? Maybe one of us has a respectable school to recommend?

What are you looking to get from your MA? Fitness, self-defense, or just something for fun?

Do you want to spar (full contact, limited contact, or point sparring)? Would you rather learn by kata - memorizing sets of kicks and punches?

How much do you want to spend?

I went through all this a couple weeks ago when I wanted to start a MA. I found out some new things, maybe they will help you too.
-If you want self defense, go with no frills styles. Muay Thai kickboxing or regular boxing. Both are also an excellent workout. Also, there is a lesser chance of having a MT or boxing "McDojo" because they produce competition level fighters. Even if that is not your goal (or maybe you wanna be a cage fighter?) it is good to know that the school teaches what works.

-Ground fighting, or grappling is getting more and more popular. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu emphasizes submissions from the ground. Judo and Japanese Jiu Jitsu mix both standing throws and sweeps along with ground subs and holds (not as much as BJJ does though). The good thing about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the ease with which you can trace lineage. There is a guy that teaches in my town and you can trace his instructors back to the origin of BJJ. That way you dont end up with some guy that purchased his credentials (which happens alot in Tae Kwon Do and Karate, as well as others).

Here is a good site to evaluate all the styles: About Martial Arts (http://martialarts.about.com/od/choosingaschool/a/choosestyle.htm)

And here is a good site to check on McDojos and learn about martial arts in general: Bullshido (http://www.bullshido.net/)

Have fun:D

I agree with the poster above... what do you want to do, forms and repetitive patterns??? Sparring?? etc...

For a more real applicable art (IMO) I would either look for a Mixed Martial Arts school or a school that does BJJ/Thai Boxing.

Let us know if you have any idea yet... what state are you in?

Thanks for all the repsonses everyone!

I will be moving to Oregon. I don't know if that means anything either way in terms of how good of a school I could find. I'm sure there are good and bad schools in every state.

In terms of what I am looking for, I definitely need to do more research in terms of the actual style I want to pursue. In doing martial arts I am looking for an athletic challenge, something that will improve my coordination, flexibility, speed, etc. At the same time, if I am going to do martial arts I think it would be great to get some kind of self defense training out of it. You never know when you are really going to need it. I would assume that getting into some sparring would be good then. Hmmm....more research is become very clear now. I'll have to see what's available where I am moving too.

if you are going to be near portland, i'd highly recommend looking at training with matt thornton... amazing instructor and great program for learning how to fight.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

KC86 knows the score.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with Karate/TQD. I know many people do it, and it's been the foundation of many professional fighters, but I think it plays as second-fiddle to other arts.
Extending on KC86's post, try to find a Muay Thai/kickboxing class- it's [generally] more intense, more practical, and more down-to-earth, especially if you ever have to use it.

It sounds like you're primarily doing it for fitness in which the above suit well, but you might want to consider a grappling art, like Ju Jiutsu/BJJ or Judo, which has it's pro's and con's against impact fighting (punch/kicks), one of which involves being more usable against a larger person.

I have been taking /teaching Moo kwang TaeKwonDo for approx 9 years now (did stop for a few years between 2000-2003) and find it to be not only a great conditioning, cardio vascular and flexibility training, but also , with my school at least, a great self esteem/confidence booster and outstanding for inducing a great sense of control and discipline.

Thanks Biggoggs:D

I did a lot of lurking over on Bullshido that accelerated the learning curve. When I first started checking it out, I almost wound up at a Pakua place. Later found out that the instructor had no experience in Pakua, had no official rank, etc. etc. From then on I have been pretty adamant about telling people to research before paying.

At any rate, this is how I view TKD: good teachers and good fighters are out there, but they are the exception to the rule. There are many unscrupulous instructors that will claim "self-defense" application when they actually teach kata and point sparring only. That would be equivalent to a cardio kickboxing instructor claiming you could train in that class for self defense. It just ain't gonna work. The competition based arts are generally less BS because you are constantly training at full speed against a resisting opponent. Boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, kyokushin karate (and offshots), Judo, BJJ, wrestling- all good stuff for the most part.

But, do some research then call them up and ask for some free try-out lessons. If they ask you to sign a contract, leave. Never pay for a intro class. Also, go in there with an open mind. You might find a TKD instructor that kicks butt, or you could find a Judo instructor that has no idea what he is doing. It is all predicated on the instructor.

One thing I'd like to add for your consideration is that one of the greatest aspects to the traditional martial arts can be the 'spiritual' or mental training.

Personally, I feel that some very important components of any traditional martial arts training should include philosophy and traditions.

If you seek out and find a master of an art who has had traditional training, you may find that as his or her student, you will gain far more than simple physical techniques of violence.

I'm not trying to make a value judgement here, rather try to help you by steering you towards one kind of training or another. If you're just looking for some kick-ass asskicking skills, a traditional dojo ("school" in the Japanese) might bore you to tears.

If you seek a traditional experience, a traditional school can give you both the skills and the philosophy, but the training will take far longer, possibly your entire life.

When I started getting close to my goals, I started thinking about doing some sort of martial arts too.
I'm a big MMA/UFC fan, but I didnt really feel like starting a new hobby of getting kicked in the face.
I got lucky and a friend of mine was taking BJJ at the university and invited me down.
University Of Iowa Brazillian Jui-Jitsu Club (http://http://www.uiowa.edu/~armbar/)
So far it's been working out pretty good, but I havent figured out how to adjust my workout & eating schedule around the classes since theyre at 830pm.
It's really pointed out the fact that even though I've been working with the weights, theres dozens of small muscles that get used in actual application. The first week in I was made aware of dozens of small muscles in my legs & feet I didn't know I had ;)

I like BJJ for a lot of reasons.
The techniques assume that your opponent is bigger & stronger than you are.
It's basically non-violent (or maybe counter-violent?). The goal is to exploit the weaknesses of the body and make your opponent submit rather than cause so much trauma to him that his brain shuts off. Because of that, you can train & spar at near-100% without fear of gross bodily harm.
Most importantly, the skills apply to the real world. You cant say that about Karate, or TKD for ex.
Take a look at how many MMA fighters come from a Karate background. Almost none. Its all about Muay Thai/Kickboxing (stand-up), wrestling (takedowns/transitions), and Brazillian Jui-Jitsu (ground fighting).
Here's the classic Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVy0k3mDz)

Just curious, what martial art are you involved with Budoka? I am still on the fence as to the 'spiritual' aspect of MA. Sometimes it is good- like teaching discipline and respect, but other times it can be downright creepy. Some instructors will use the spiritual excuse in order to force you into the "BOW TO YOUR SENSEI" bs. Other times they use it to rationalize why their fighting system sucks. At the end of the day, it is still MARTIAL arts, after all. Some of the chubby sifu's try to hide behind the wall of ignorance and cultish behavior. So, it is a mixed bag- good and bad.

Bkaraff,
That is awesome. BJJ is so damn expensive around here, thats the only reason I havent started. There is a Carlson Gracie Jr. Black belt right down the street, but the cost is much more than I could afford. It is really a shame that my Uni doesnt offer any MA clubs. Maybe I should look into that...:D

Lately, I've been remiss in my studies, but when I can I study Iaijutsu, Jodo and traditional Karate-do. I also am very fond of Kendo, but don't even have enough time lately to study the others I mentioned. Kendo is an awesome way to stay "in shape", IMO.

I have also been interested in studying a grappling art like Jujutsu/jiu-jitsu as well as Aikido and/or Judo, but just don't have the required free time to dedicate myself towards learning another new art.

For me, my ultimate path is self-knowledge so my concerns in learning a martial art are rather less focused on the physical ability to surmount an opponent but more the ability to surmount my own ego. To that end, I gravitate towards the traditional Japanese martial arts (esp. Iaijutsu and jodo) because it is through them that I learn a great deal about myself.

I think the other arts that have been mentioned by others are great would probably be a ton of fun to learn as well, especially BJJ. I've always admired those Gracie fellows.

For me the traditions of bowing are acceptable because they stem from cultural norms and additionally, the bow is a sign of respect and at my school it's not a matter of simply bowing to the teacher; bowing with the same amount of respect to your fellow student is important as well as bowing to training place (the dojo floor) and in the case of Iaijutsu, bowing to ones own sword at the beginning and ending of practice.

Whomever one learns from, I think it's important for the student to perceive both sincerity and expertise on the part of the teacher before engaging in a long term relationship of study. If one or the other (sincerity and knowledge) is missing the student would probably be better off reading a book or playing a sport, IMO.

I also think that a path of knowledge and true understanding can be had from learning other things as well. Take carpentry or flower arranging or music for example. One can find amazing masters of each art and I would guess that the mental state of those masters who have studied their respective arts their whole lives and engage in them every day would be very similar to the mental state found in great martial arts masters. So too I think that someone seeking to learn should seek out and find masters from which to learn.

I would love to study Hapkido, Judo and BJJ. But the time needed and the money required makes it so difficult.

For me the traditions of bowing are acceptable because they stem from cultural norms and additionally, the bow is a sign of respect and at my school it's not a matter of simply bowing to the teacher; bowing with the same amount of respect to your fellow student is important as well as bowing to training place (the dojo floor) and in the case of Iaijutsu, bowing to ones own sword at the beginning and ending of practice.

Whomever one learns from, I think it's important for the student to perceive both sincerity and expertise on the part of the teacher before engaging in a long term relationship of study. If one or the other (sincerity and knowledge) is missing the student would probably be better off reading a book or playing a sport, IMO.

I also think that a path of knowledge and true understanding can be had from learning other things as well. Take carpentry or flower arranging or music for example. One can find amazing masters of each art and I would guess that the mental state of those masters who have studied their respective arts their whole lives and engage in them every day would be very similar to the mental state found in great martial arts masters. So too I think that someone seeking to learn should seek out and find masters from which to learn.

Great Post!!! I think that the bowing, when there is the respect of the teacher - not the typical "Cobra Kai teacher mentality" -, is not bowing to the individual, but to the meaning, traditions, and knowledge of the art.

Research research RESEARCH your school before you sign a contract!!!

There are sooooo many crappy schools out there!!! Pay $50, get your yellow belt. Pay $75, get your orange belt. Pay $100, get your green belt. etc etc etc. Uh uh. Higher belt testings do normally cost a little more (at least with my school - more intensive/longer tests), but watch out for what looks like a pay-for-your-belt scheme.


A bit of a side issue, but I was talking to my dad about something along these lines last night. He teaches Aikido, and has done for years and years. When I was a kid, we did it too, but when I was even younger than that, I did Judo. I don't know how popular Judo is in the States, but Karate is more popular here- mainly (IMO) on account of the "McDojos" that someone else mentioned in this thread- and it very much appears as a pay for your grading kind of scheme. My dad's recommendation is always to try everything, but not to get caught up in pseudo-spiritual hype. That's not to say that you cannot find true spirituality, just that it's hard to filter the crap from the good. :D
So sorry if this comes out offensive- but the important thing is to look at (as other people have said) the reasons why you want to do it, what you want to acheive, and explore and try as many as possible, before commiting to one. I wouldn't recommend committing to a club, etc, if they wont let you try it first.

Karate is more likely to be BS because there isnt the constant feedback in training, like you have in Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Boxing. You are consistently able to see your training in action. If you are doing kata and punching the air, then how would you know how effective you are? The air wont hit you back. If you try a Judo throw and it doesnt work, then you are immediately aware that something isnt working. Hence the very small number of Judo clubs and schools as compared with Karate and TKD. There are no required credentials needed to start a martial arts dojo in the US, so the number of liars and cheats is astronomical. And if you are in a dojo with no sparring, how do you know if sensei is full of it?

That also leads to my problem with the spiritual argument in martial arts. If you can join that stuff with good training, more power to you. Kyokushin Karate and its offshoots (Daido Juko is a good example) are able to combine the discipline and training effectively. However some people use the spiritual to rationalize why they suck. "Oh well we placed last in the tournament because our dojo focuses more on other things." You would be amazed at how many senseis say that. When you proport to teach a MARTIAL ART, there is an inherent connection to fighting. Now, if you want to say that fighting isn't important, dont call yourself a martial artist. It is strange to me that so many people fall into that BS trap. So, now on to the Daido Juku Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA&mode=related&search=Daido%20juku%20).

When you proport to teach a MARTIAL ART, there is an inherent connection to fighting. Now, if you want to say that fighting isn't important, dont call yourself a martial artist. It is strange to me that so many people fall into that BS trap.

Likewise. I'd always felt that good kata should be accompanied by an opportunity to *use* it, just like we do drills in soccer, and simulate play. Both are relevant. When I've seen my dad in competitions, you can recognise the kata being used in the sparring.

I think the spiritual/New Age martial arts are just pre-boxed mini-religions, with their own individual dogmas, constructs, parables/legends, and leaders to back it up- it's almost like the people who do them think the `real' religions are too mainstream, or watch too much anime (cue silhouette of a ninja with hair blowing in wind, sword in hand, and oversized moon visible in background).

KC86: Wow, those fights are intense. I've never heard of `Daido Juku', it'd be interesting to see how it fares against the normal cross-training approach.
They must have some sort-of stand-up rule and a short timer though, can't see a JJ-influenced art preferring to stand.

kateykate: All due respect to your father, but Aikido randori isn't sparring, at least in a combat sense. For instance, compare Aikido randori
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjL6kcciI4) (there are no Aikido competitions) with the video KC86 posted.
I did Aikido for two years, I think it'd only be useful in `light attacks', eg a drunkard swinging at you, or a kid with a big stick. If things get a little more active than that, time to go elsewhere.


Also, +1 with the useability. If it's not `martial', then it's not a `martial art', it's just an art. Just like ballroom dancing, synchronized swimming, figure skating, etc.

kateykate: All due respect to your father, but Aikido randori isn't sparring, at least in a combat sense. For instance, compare Aikido randori
(there are no Aikido competitions) with the video KC86 posted.
I did Aikido for two years, I think it'd only be useful in `light attacks', eg a drunkard swinging at you, or a kid with a big stick. If things get a little more active than that, time to go elsewhere.


What style of Aikido did you do? I *think* I understand what you're saying about randori not being sparring, but, well, it is. Randori is used as part of training to incorporate kata into a sparring situation. There are ground rules, such as and foot techniques, but it is sparring nonetheless. It teaches timing and technique choice. Sure, you're going to be stuffed if someone pulls out, say, a gun, but that's the same across the board for all martial arts, yeah?

I understand that it's not a combat sport like kickboxing, but isn't that the point? The first principle when being attacked in Aikido is to avoid the attack, and then use the attacker's momentum to counter. It doesn't have the same principles as other martial arts, such as karate, where there is a greater emphasis on striking techniques, because there aren't any striking techniques. I don't think that this denegrates its usefullness in a realistic sense, but perhaps this is because I don't look at a threatening situation and wonder how I can best put my fist through some guy's skull. ;)
I think the issue that many people have with Aikido is its lack of agression, and I guess that's the point, that it's roots are in open handed combat, and it actively promotes the 'way of peace'. This isn't bad, or less valuable, in a fight situations, it's just different, yeah?

To be really honest, I don't think that 2 years is long enough to get a clear idea of the 'worth' of Shodokan Aikido in a competitive sense. My dad's done it for over 20 years, and I did it for a great deal of my childhood. It can be competitive, indeed, Kenji Tomiki *needed* to make it competitive in order to teach it to university students in Japan.

There are Aikido competitions, including international tournaments, and we used to have competitions amongst local clubs in QLD. Perhaps they're not common, like kick-boxing competitions, but they do happen. :nod:

When the ground rules include no kicking, three predefined upper body attacks, and grabbing wrists, I don't particularly consider that down-to-earth sparring.
Sure you can't defend against a gun, but you can defend against fists, kicks, and elbows. Oh, except in Aikido. You have to be a black belt before you start doing techniques against kicks- Aikido is, as you say, `the way of peace' (ai-harmony, ki-spirit, do-way). I guess this is true, at least in a Mahatma Gandhi sense that you're going to get beaten up without hurting the other person :D
Heh jokes aside, the avoiding/redirecting `Ki' is an inherant principle in Aikido, not just in the dojo, either. I was once lectured on the `Aiki way', basically `going with the flow' and avoiding conflict in conversation, for example. Now, while I think this whole principle is flawed pseudo-philosophy in the first place, it's physically impossible (or at least inappropriately infeasible) do `redirect your opponent's ki' in any situation other than the ones I mentioned it'd be useful. When four fists in a second are directed at your head, immediately followed up with a kick, you won't redirect anything. Randori deals with comparatively long, single, drawn-out, and obvious selected attacks-- amusingly disconnected from the harsh reality of physical conflict. If Aikido was a movie, it's tagline would be, `Aikido: Grab my wrist. I dare you.'

I know two years isn't much, but I see it this way. If you eventually become `proficient' in Aikido after ten/fifteen years, but capable in (eg) kickboxing or a grappling art in three, then an additional seven/twelve years is a lot of additional training doing something inherantly more effective.

Interesting, but how are those competitions judged? Do your competitions involve competitors from other arts?

I've found an `interesting discussion' on Bullshido about Aikido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36271&page=1) started from someone who wanted to `clear up some misconceptions'. I'm still reading it, but I think the guy got `pwned' on pg.2.

Daido Juku is pretty sweet. The founder was a Kyokushin World Champ that got sick of the limits of that style. He had a 3rd degree black belt in Judo, as well as a 4th in Kyokushin, so you can definitely see those two influences. The other arts you can see in the modern style (esp in that video) are muay thai, boxing, jujitsu, and sambo. Azuma created a style which incorporated various offensive as well as defensive techniques which includes punches to the head, elbow strikes, head butts, judo throws, jiu-jitsu jointlocks and other standup and ground fighting techniques. The only problem is that there arent many instructors in the US. Otherwise I would be in that for sure.

And just to touch on Aikido...
I think it does have some merit as a Martial Art. It does train you how to combat a specific type of attack, from a very limited range. There is way too much spiritual BS (the ki argument) for me. The main thing is that proficiency takes a very long time, and in the end you have a non-inclusive fighting system. Randori is essentially non-resistent training. The guy that you "spar" with is doing something that you expect. And then he knows to do a somersault when you get the wrist lock. Thats why you always see the partner flying around doing somersaults at the demos. It would be more worthwhile for the practitioner to learn how to stop an attack (say a punch, kick, or takedown) rather than just learn how to counter when someone grabs your wrist.
When someone is close enough to grab your wrist, there are also many other options you could take. If you are a fan of non-violent resolution, you could go into a clinch then work towards a choke hold. You could use a Judo throw. Or if you are like me, you could punch the person in the face, then clinch and knee to the face. Any of those options have a high percentage of success, and need a smaller amount of training (compared with an Aikido practitioner). I might change my opinion if I can see an Aikidoka that can change my mind, but as of right now it ranks fairly low on my Martial Arts totem pole.

When the ground rules include no kicking, three predefined upper body attacks, and grabbing wrists, I don't particularly consider that down-to-earth sparring.
Sure you can't defend against a gun, but you can defend against fists, kicks, and elbows. Oh, except in Aikido. You have to be a black belt before you start doing techniques against kicks- Aikido is, as you say, `the way of peace' (ai-harmony, ki-spirit, do-way). I guess this is true, at least in a Mahatma Gandhi sense that you're going to get beaten up without hurting the other person :D

:eek: A side issue, I am sure, but do you think you'd remember who Ghandi was, if he went around smashing people's skulls open? Or do I have to start singing the lyrics to the "Different Strokes" theme? :doh:

Just on the 'can't defend against fists, kicks, and elbows, I thought I'd share this.

Randori
Avoiding an attack and controlling an opponent outside grappling distance.
1. Randori no kata (17 techniques)
A basic kata to show the ways of avoiding an attack and controlling the attacker who is outside grappling distance and attacks with a punch, strike, kick or with a knife. Kakari geiko and hikitate geiko are also used to advance towards randori practice.

That's from the JAA website. (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi8.html)

I'm not sure about the black belt thing. I can't remember and can't be arsed calling my dad to ask him.

Heh jokes aside,

what? Where? :whistle:

the avoiding/redirecting `Ki' is an inherant principle in Aikido, not just in the dojo, either. I was once lectured on the `Aiki way', basically `going with the flow' and avoiding conflict in conversation, for example.

Yeah- maybe for you. I've had *many* a lecture on the principles of avoiding, but *no one* in my family avoids conflict. Ironic, isn't it? :rolleyes: I think perhaps your instructor took the psycho-babble a little too personally? The principle is fine in a physical sense, but, well, look at me, I'm not 'getting out of the way', am I? ;)

Now, while I think this whole principle is flawed pseudo-philosophy in the first place, it's physically impossible (or at least inappropriately infeasible) do `redirect your opponent's ki' in any situation other than the ones I mentioned it'd be useful. When four fists in a second are directed at your head, immediately followed up with a kick, you won't redirect anything. Randori deals with comparatively long, single, drawn-out, and obvious selected attacks-- amusingly disconnected from the harsh reality of physical conflict. If Aikido was a movie, it's tagline would be, `Aikido: Grab my wrist. I dare you.'

Yes and no. Four fists in a second requires a certain level of skill, no? The inexperienced kickboxer is going to have as much difficulty with this situation as the inexperienced *anything*. The idea that attacks in randori are long, single, drawn out and selected is typical of a novice situation. It's just not true in a high level, competitive sense, just as is the case in a competitive kick boxing. But I think that often, people begin by learning with s-l-o-w movements: you walk before you run. I don't think a novice would have to deal with 4 fists in a second in kickboxing, either. :nod:

As for the Aikido movie, well, I don't know. There was all those Steven Segal movies, and Rising Sun, with Wesley Snipes and Sean Connery. I'm not speaking as a fan, personally, just going off the top of my head.

I know two years isn't much, but I see it this way. If you eventually become `proficient' in Aikido after ten/fifteen years, but capable in (eg) kickboxing or a grappling art in three, then an additional seven/twelve years is a lot of additional training doing something inherantly more effective.

It's not, not really- but this applies across the board, yeah? You can be capable in a kickboxing or grappling art in three years, sure, but you could also become capable in Aikido. I suppose it's got something to do with your instructor, your club, and your effort. There are also plenty of clubs in different MA who encourage the 'pay for your grading' method, which is just as bad, giving a person a false sense of confidence in their abilities that just doesn't translate in a 'real' situation.

Interesting, but how are those competitions judged?

...by judges... how would you expect them to be judged? :p


Do your competitions involve competitors from other arts?

No- much like in a karate, or TKD competition, something described as an 'International Sports Aikido Tournament' (as per the link to the website) would be just that. I don't know if there have been competitions with different MA, I've never bothered to look, you know?

I've found an `interesting discussion' on Bullshido about Aikido (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36271&page=1) started from someone who wanted to `clear up some misconceptions'. I'm still reading it, but I think the guy got `pwned' on pg.2.

thanks. I read a bit of that. I don't know what that guy was out to prove, he seemed like a bit of a dick to me. I don't think he even knew what style he was doing! Having said that, the other guys on the forum were carrying on like a horse's arse, too, don't you think?

Just for clarification, what style of aikido did you do? There are some out there that to me seem complete crap, Shodokan Aikido players don't wear the hakama, because they're just not practical.
Also I grew up listening to my dad being very scornful of people that either took themselves too seriously with all of that esoteric stuff, and also people who took themselves too seriously with just how tough they were. I don't think that the effectiveness of a MA is necessarily measured with black eyes and broken bones inflicted on another person, but I also think it depends on why you're choosing a MA: fitness/self defence/the need to smash another person's skull in/etc. ;)

And just to touch on Aikido...
I think it does have some merit as a Martial Art. It does train you how to combat a specific type of attack, from a very limited range. There is way too much spiritual BS (the ki argument) for me. The main thing is that proficiency takes a very long time, and in the end you have a non-inclusive fighting system. Randori is essentially non-resistent training. The guy that you "spar" with is doing something that you expect. And then he knows to do a somersault when you get the wrist lock. Thats why you always see the partner flying around doing somersaults at the demos. It would be more worthwhile for the practitioner to learn how to stop an attack (say a punch, kick, or takedown) rather than just learn how to counter when someone grabs your wrist.
When someone is close enough to grab your wrist, there are also many other options you could take. If you are a fan of non-violent resolution, you could go into a clinch then work towards a choke hold. You could use a Judo throw. Or if you are like me, you could punch the person in the face, then clinch and knee to the face. Any of those options have a high percentage of success, and need a smaller amount of training (compared with an Aikido practitioner). I might change my opinion if I can see an Aikidoka that can change my mind, but as of right now it ranks fairly low on my Martial Arts totem pole.

It seems lots of them have lots of spiritual BS- definately agreed. Proficiency can take a long time, I suppose this is a personal thing, though, it's not a 6 week self defence class, nor does it purport to be. Granted the guy you're doing randori with is often going to do something you expect, that's because randori is a method of using kata that you've learnt- much the same in any MA that has a set kata: there's always going to be a range of attacks that are 'expected' depending on your ability, no?
Wrist grabbing does happen! Yes it does! I know! :lol: But there are also techniques that are applied to kicks and punches, atleast in Shodokan, I suppose it's a matter of which gets the most publicity. Shodokan does have clinches with choke holds, and judo throws- these are things I learnt as a kid, so I'm not sure how much proficiency is required there...?

Also- sorry to be a bit pedantic, but an effective wrist technique doesn't result in your sparring partner 'knowing to do a somersault' :) but rather, over is the only place they can go: if it's quick. My brother and I used to do that to each other a lot. :rolleyes:
You know, as a kid that had to go and do demonstrations with my dad, I'd say that in demos they do lots of big throws because it looks and sounds impressive when you slap the mat. Just a thought.

Here is my argument against randori (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-mGUP-OWHY). Wristlocks are legit, but jumping into the air and somersaulting is all done by the uke. In order to physically throw someone, you need to get leverage (Judo, wrestling, etc.). You cant just flick your wrist and send a 150+ pound person flying through the air.

Like I said I have never taken Aikido. If you have any videos of your style, I'd like to see them.

Had a quick look and found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yy4e2q0CbE), though I'll admit I haven't watched it yet. :D

also this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XFRtBoJImU&mode=related&search=), which was there was a link on teh same page. Most of those ones appear quite short though, I think.

Just on the 'can't defend against fists, kicks, and elbows, I thought I'd share this.
That's from the JAA website. (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi8.html)
Well yea, the `Shodokan Aikido International Headquarters Homepage' isn't going to say `actually guys to be honest our Aikido sucks against kicks and punches, the way we train isn't very down-to-earth'.

Yeah- maybe for you. I've had *many* a lecture on the principles of avoiding, but *no one* in my family avoids conflict. Ironic, isn't it? :rolleyes: I think perhaps your instructor took the psycho-babble a little too personally? The principle is fine in a physical sense, but, well, look at me, I'm not 'getting out of the way', am I? ;)
It is a little, since as I said, it's a core principle of the Aikido- a literal translation of Aikido is `the practise of Ki harmony'.
Harmonizing metaphysical energy? Wonderful, tomorrow we'll channel our Shakras, reveal our Kabbalah, and ! :tucool:

Yes and no. Four fists in a second requires a certain level of skill, no?
Not particularly, maybe two if they're drunk.

The inexperienced kickboxer is going to have as much difficulty with this situation as the inexperienced *anything*. The idea that attacks in randori are long, single, drawn out and selected is typical of a novice situation. It's just not true in a high level, competitive sense, just as is the case in a competitive kick boxing. But I think that often, people begin by learning with s-l-o-w movements: you walk before you run. I don't think a novice would have to deal with 4 fists in a second in kickboxing, either. :nod:
I disagree, after a month of training a kickboxer has more `practical' knowledge than an Aikidoka of a few years.
Besides, I think you're overlooking an important part of my argument- it takes far less time to become `proficient' (aka, able to defend yourself) in kickboxing than it does for Aikido, although I doubt the effectiveness of even experienced Aikidokas in a real fight.

As for the Aikido movie, well, I don't know. There was all those Steven Segal movies, and Rising Sun, with Wesley Snipes and Sean Connery. I'm not speaking as a fan, personally, just going off the top of my head.
Well of course, it involves summersaults at (as KC86 said) the `flick of a wrist'! Look how strong Segal is! :flex:

...by judges... how would you expect them to be judged? :p
Do the Aikidokas actually swing at each other, or take turns to be hit?


thanks. I read a bit of that. I don't know what that guy was out to prove, he seemed like a bit of a dick to me. I don't think he even knew what style he was doing! Having said that, the other guys on the forum were carrying on like a horse's arse, too, don't you think?
Heh actually, I thought the `Omega' guy was rather amusing, and the comment that Aikido works best against `children and retards' had me lol :)

Just for clarification, what style of aikido did you do? There are some out there that to me seem complete crap, Shodokan Aikido players don't wear the hakama, because they're just not practical.
Fuji Ryu (http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/styles.htm)
Founded by Gesshu Sugawara in 1962 in Miyagi Prefecture, Japan. with the blessing of long time friend O-Sensei. The Australian Fuji Ryu Fedeation was formed in 1978 by Takeshi Nakajima Sensei, who taught at Tasmanian Police Academy, and is now presided over by Tim Waters Sensei.
Tim Waters was actually our sensei. He's a nice guy, and big on the Aiki philosophy. I don't have a problem with the school or people I trained with, it's Aikido itself.

Also I grew up listening to my dad being very scornful of people that either took themselves too seriously with all of that esoteric stuff, and also people who took themselves too seriously with just how tough they were. I don't think that the effectiveness of a MA is necessarily measured with black eyes and broken bones inflicted on another person, but I also think it depends on why you're choosing a MA: fitness/self defence/the need to smash another person's skull in/etc. ;)
So... you're saying the effectiveness of a martial art is not it's martial ability? Why do (/did) [i]you study Aikido?

Well yea, the `Shodokan Aikido International Headquarters Homepage' isn't going to say `actually guys to be honest our Aikido sucks against kicks and punches, the way we train isn't very down-to-earth'.

...maybe because it doesn't? It's not a kick in the face, no, but that's kind of the point.

It is a little, since as I said, it's a core principle of the Aikido- a literal translation of Aikido is `the practise of Ki harmony'.
Harmonizing metaphysical energy? Wonderful, tomorrow we'll channel our Shakras, reveal our Kabbalah, and ! :tucool:

:rolleyes: You're a doofus, biggogs. :lol: You wouldn't heckle the thai boxer, standing and praying in his corner of the ring, isn't what you're kind of the same? I'm ok, you'reo- oh- no- wait - no, no you've got problems... :p ;)

Not particularly, maybe two if they're drunk.

And 6 if they've been poppin pills! :lol:

I disagree, after a month of training a kickboxer has more `practical' knowledge than an Aikidoka of a few years.
Besides, I think you're overlooking an important part of my argument- it takes far less time to become `proficient' (aka, able to defend yourself) in kickboxing than it does for Aikido, although I doubt the effectiveness of even experienced Aikidokas in a real fight.

No, no don't get me wrong- I agree with you. It only takes a couple of months to learn how to punch someone in the face, doesn't it? :p But it comes down to why the person is studying the martial art, again, IMO. I don't think that meat heads sign up to an Aikido class,(especially the stupid esoteric ones!) because it's really going to help them connect with their inner self. They do kickboxing, because they want to smash some other guy's skull. Self defence classes are for people who want to defend themselves. Do you see my point? I don't have a problem with kickboxing, so I don't know why I keep using it as an example, but there is a ceremonial aspect to Muay Thai that I think often gets glossed over for the sake of a bit of gore-- perhaps.


Well of course, it involves summersaults at (as KC86 said) the `flick of a wrist'! Look how strong Segal is! :flex:

Have you tried it? :D If only it worked from afar! Try it on yourself! :lol:

Do the Aikidokas actually swing at each other, or take turns to be hit?

To be honest, I can't remember. It's been a while. I'm also too lazy to find out. :whistle:


Heh actually, I thought the `Omega' guy was rather amusing, and the comment that Aikido works best against `children and retards' had me lol :)

:spaz: That was the most offensive part! I *like* children and retards! He didn't come across as terribly clever or funny- just seemed like a bit of a dumb meat head that was hellbent on intimidating people, to me. :nope:


Fuji Ryu (http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/styles.htm)

Tim Waters was actually our sensei. He's a nice guy, and big on the Aiki philosophy. I don't have a problem with the school or people I trained with, it's Aikido itself.

Funny- because I read a little of that history, and the style that you did was where Tomiki split from, IIRC. I don't know anything about it, so I can't judge.

So... you're saying the effectiveness of a martial art is not it's martial ability?

I guess it again goes back to how literally you take things- having a history in Japanese battle seems fairly martial to me, don't you think? The word martial doesn't necessitate war mongering, but rather a connection with war. History is a pretty strong one, IMNSHO. :nod:

Why do (/did) [i]you study Aikido?

Well, because I had to, silly! My dad was the instructor, what choice did I have? :lol:

Why did you? More to the point, what is it that you're doing now? Self defence classes? :p Just teasing- I really am interested- what did you choose, and why? Have you done lots of different martial arts?

Look, I don't *actually* disagree with you about everything. I have issues with esotericism, too, but this is as prevalent in many different MA as it is in some styles of Aikido. I don't doubt that it takes a person a lot longer to become proficient in 'self defence' in a MA style that promotes 'the way of peace' as one of it's central philosophies. It doesn't make it bad, or useless, or worse, IMO, it just means that it's not likely to attract a bunch of, well, you should know what I'm going to say next. You take from any MA as much or as little as you like, it's like life, no? I guess the difference for some is that it's about the destination (punching someone in the head) and for others, it's about the journey (learning, etc).

Biggoggs, I was wondering if you are still practising aikido? in your mentioned Fuji Ryu school with Tim Waters Sensei?

I was training in Capoeira for awhile.

It is a Brazillian Martial Art/Dance that is extremely fitness-intensive and more focused on beating ones opponent mentally rather than physically. It is really cool and I would recommend people try it out.

Other than that I really want to train in MMA/BJJ and Muay Thai, but the only schools around here are like 8 billion dollars a second.