Ok,..I ran across this while trying to find info on Testosterone products, and it puzzles me,..Could this routine really make big gains in a short period f time? It seems like a very minimalist aproach to lifting. I don't mean to say you couldn't increase your particular lifts by doing it, but it seems so limited,..Am I just green ???

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Sorry, but I have an added question,..What does the ( 3X8/8 ) Mean? I'm not use to seeing 3X8/8, or 3X6/4/4

In my opinion there are NO testosterone boosting supplements on the market today that are effective or worth your money.

If you truly want to get big and strong you can try AtLarge's Maximum Mass stack. It contains the most effective products on the market today to help you gain as much size and strength as possible.

http://atlargenutrition.com/nutritio...?products_id=9

Now, combine the above stack with the below training routine and you will be bigger and stronger than you ever hoped to be:

Routine 4 (Gain 15 lbs in 1 Month!)

*** This program is geared primarily towards younger men ages 17-35 who have trouble gaining appreciable size and strength.

The title of this routine grabbed your attention, didn’t it? Adding 15 lbs of primarily lean muscle mass in one month may seem like a pipedream to many of you. You slave away 4, 5, or more days a week in the gym and you faithfully take your protein supplements yet you just don’t get the results you want. The resulting frustration has made you decide you are one of those “hard gainers” and that getting huge without drugs just isn’t in the cards for you.

You are not a “hard gainer”, you just haven’t done it right! If you follow the instructions in this thread you WILL gain 15 lbs of mass in one month! Yeah, I know, you have read it all before and I am full of it. Yes and no. The 15 lbs of primarily lean muscle in a month claim for this program is geared primarily to those who are either relatively new to training or have been doing it all wrong since they have been training. A more advanced trainee who is closer to their hereditary limits for natural size and strength may not gain 15 lbs but they will make phenomenal progress. Bottom line, the program, supplementation, and dietary regimen described here WILL pack on the mass at an unprecedented rate and will make you a bigger and stronger individual than you currently are regardless of your training experience.

Diet and training play equal parts in this plan with respect to the fact that if you don’t eat enough you won’t be gaining much of anything and if you don’t train you certainly won’t be gaining anything but fat!

The number one mistake most young men make when trying to gain muscular weight is that they just don’t eat enough! A natural trainee simply isn’t going to get huge eating like a bird! You might think you are eating a “lot” but you aren’t. Your stomach needs to adapt in order to allow you to consume sufficient calories. You might be full, but that doesn’t mean you are eating enough to support massive gains. Now, I am not suggesting that you eat until you vomit but you need to eat until you are uncomfortable and eat when you are not feeling hungry. Over time your stomach will adapt and it will not be difficult to consume the necessary number of calories.

What is the necessary number of calories? For young men looking to pack on mass 25 calories per pound of body weight is the minimum. If you don’t see rapid enough results you can increase from there. Make sure the foods you consume are the same as or like those recommended in the OYB diet section.

You can eat right and supplement correctly but you HAVE to bust your ass in the gym if you want your ultimate goal of huge size and strength to come to fruition. More accurately, you have to PROPERLY bust your ass in the gym to make optimal progress in size and strength. If you want to add 15 lbs of mass in the next month give the following routine a go:

Monday

-Stiff-legged deadlift --- 1 x 15

Rest at least 10 minutes.

-Squats --- 2 x 8/8 (rest 5 minutes between working sets)
-Calf raises --- 2 x 20/20

Wednesday

-Standing military press --- 3 x 6/4/4 (rest 5 minutes between working sets)
-Weighted dips --- 2 x 10/10
-Weighted chins (if possible to use added weight) --- 2 x 8/8

Friday

-Deadlifts --- 1 x 3
-Leg press --- 3 x 10/10/10 (rest 5 minutes or more between working sets)

That’s it! This program works the largest muscles of your body intensely and will stimulate MASSIVE gains in overall size and strength if combined with the diet tips and supplements indicated above. You progress will be so incredible your friends will accuse you of being on steroids!

What are you waiting for? Get the products, foods, and get your training in order and be 15 lbs bigger in ONE MONTH!
Reply With Quote

I disagree that there are no effective Testo boosters out there.

I know when I stack Tribulus terestris/Atena Sativa, my wife flees from me like an Uzbeckistan peasant from the Nazi Hordes (after a while).

And this is the low end of the spectrum for testo boosters. There are some out there that claim 600 percent improvement. They even tell you you will experience personality changes.

I shudder to think.... Jeckyll/Hyde ????

But then again...I'm pretty "fresh" even without Trib :evil: :eek: :evil:

I disagree that there are no effective Testo boosters out there.

I know when I stack Tribulus terestris/Atena Sativa, my wife flees from me like an Uzbeckistan peasant from the Nazi Hordes (after a while).

And this is the low end of the spectrum for testo boosters. There are some out there that claim 600 percent improvement. They even tell you you will experience personality changes.

I shudder to think.... Jeckyll/Hyde ????

But then again...I'm pretty "fresh" even without Trib :evil: :eek: :evil:

Agreed. I think there are definitely effective supplements. There's enough people who've experienced huge increases in lubido and training boosts for me to be sold. I don't think it's psychological. I believe there are also studies where people have had T-levels tested before and after use with significant increases above baseline. Anyone really interested could get bloodwork done and see with a self-test.

I've never really tried any test boosters, but I hear that 6-oxo is supposed to be pretty decent.

It's enough.

Agreed. I think there are definitely effective supplements. There's enough people who've experienced huge increases in lubido and training boosts for me to be sold. I don't think it's psychological. I believe there are also studies where people have had T-levels tested before and after use with significant increases above baseline. Anyone really interested could get bloodwork done and see with a self-test.


Libido increases - absolutely.
Test increases - not from anything I have read.

Can't remember the lastest in a string of studies showing no increase in test levels with Trib since I'm not that interested. Probably posted on Meso-RX somewhere. It would be interesting though if you have come across some that showed increases.

Libido is only partially controlled by test levels. In fact estrogen levels can actually be more important - too high or too low will kill libido. There are also many, many other variables including a multitude of homones and brain chemisty interactions involved.

Using libido as a test level indicatior is not reliable at all.

The mind is a strange thing.:cool:

If libido and test production were strongly correlated, Ronnie Coleman better watch out!







(no, I don't want to sleep with Ronnie Coleman, you sicko)




Libido increases - absolutely.
Test increases - not from anything I have read.

Can't remember the lastest in a string of studies showing no increase in test levels with Trib since I'm not that interested. Probably posted on Meso-RX somewhere. It would be interesting though if you have come across some that showed increases.

Libido is only partially controlled by test levels. In fact estrogen levels can actually be more important - too high or too low will kill libido. There are also many, many other variables including a multitude of homones and brain chemisty interactions involved.

Using libido as a test level indicatior is not reliable at all.

Just a post to make sure evrybody understands, I ran my question into the article I found. The line that begins with "In my opinion" is where the article starts,..That's not me making a statement,..Myself, I am very interested in a way to increase testosterone, if there in fact is one that works,...

I'm getting old,and need all the help I can get, without going overboard,...:nod:

So to add to the issue, if lack of Libido isn't an indication of lower Testosterone levels, why is it that the medical community uses that as an indicator. It wasn't too long ago, I was in an Endocrenoligist's office for my Diabetes,a nd he had all sorts of testosterone info, and of course medication advertisements plastered all over the place, claiming to be the solution to solve the problems related to low testosterone. The most pronounced, being little to no libido,..Sales pitch?

I'm just trying to learn here,.not argue, so please don't mistake my questions for disagreement.

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So to add to the issue, if lack of Libido isn't an indication of lower Testosterone levels, why is it that the medical community uses that as an indicator. It wasn't too long ago, I was in an Endocrenoligist's office for my Diabetes,a nd he had all sorts of testosterone info, and of course medication advertisements plastered all over the place, claiming to be the solution to solve the problems related to low testosterone. The most pronounced, being little to no libido,..Sales pitch?

Good point.

When people's T levels decline too much, often this is the first sign or symptom they get. Usually it take ED (erectile dysfunction) before men seek out doctors help. Low libido can be due to so many factors - stress probably being the main cause, that no-one is going to make a diagnosis based on that one symptom.

In addition, it is only one symptom of low T, and not always the main symptom. Perhaps slightly more identifiable than poor mood - again can be due to a number of lifestyle factors. But some people can get very low T levels and not have ED – although usually some libido reduction.

Even when men get TRT, that does not always solve the ED or libido problem. Sometimes it is because estrogen levels increase, sometimes because low T was only one hormone out of balance, sometimes depression and other issues are to blame which themselves can cause low T levels, and raising T does nothing to address the underlying problem.

Another thing to bear in mind with these OTC products is that if you really increased T levels significantly, your body would reduce natural T production, so getting a 2x or more increase without actually adding exogenous T or directly stimulating extra production from the testes seems unlikely – I really don’t think its going to happen if you are ‘normal’, even with some/most prescription drugs.

If you think you have an issue, I would get a blood test first. Then perhaps try some of the OTC products and get re-tested. IMO it’s the only way you are going to know if the product is working for you.

A good place to start is by taking zinc (or ZMA). This is a known and relatively safe way of helping metabolize estrogens, which can also raise T levels. Having reasonable (not low) cholesterol is also good – get in a decent amount of saturated fat. Some of the other products (e.g. lowing SHBG – increasing freeT using thistle root extract) might work to some extent, but I think are going to be quite person-dependent (i.e. depend on your hormone levels, interactions and how your body compensates if one hormone level is changed).

Of course anything that does produce dramatic effects is going to potentially mess with a whole slew of hormones and balances and should be monitored by a knowledgeable doctor (most are not knowledgeable in male hormones – even endocrinologists).

To make this point see the attached ‘hormone tree’.

Bottom line though – if your T levels are in fact mid to high normal, I would seriously doubt OTC products would help much. That’s one reason I’d suggest a blood test before trying to spend $30/month or more on a supplement.

In regards to the 'advertisements', some TRT treatments (gels) are very expensive (over $200/month) and it would not surprise me if doctors were getting some incentives. Many don't want to touch TRT for various reasons, but those that are interested are likely to push testing men, either because of financial reasons and/or the benefits they have seen it make in people's quality of life. Almost everyone gets low libido at some point - so more testing, more chance of seeing low T. Problem is some people may then go on TRT when they don't need it and once you start it can be very difficult to get off and get you natural system working again.

Now, having said all that, the easiest way of getting a blood test for Testosterone is to complain of low libido (at least in the US). ED will seal the deal.

Nothing is easy any more, is it? What a pain,...The last time I mentioned this to my doctor, he blew it off,...

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Nothing is easy any more, is it? What a pain,...The last time I mentioned this to my doctor, he blew it off,...

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Most docts don't want anything to do with male hormone issues. 'Your just getting old, live with it' is usually the response.

Personally I think a complete Thyroid pannel, testosterone, estrogen, CBC, metabolic pannel, cortisol should be done every 10 years or so for everyone, but especially as we get older.

Funny how getting a lipid pannel is very easy - lots of money to be made from cholesterol lowering drugs.

Getting antidepessants is also relatively trivial.

Most docts don't want anything to do with male hormone issues. 'Your just getting old, live with it' is usually the response.

Personally I think a complete Thyroid pannel, testosterone, estrogen, CBC, metabolic pannel, cortisol should be done every 10 years or so for everyone, but especially as we get older.

Funny how getting a lipid pannel is very easy - lots of money to be made from cholesterol lowering drugs.

Getting antidepessants is also relatively trivial.

I'm thinking about asking for a Hormone check, just to see what can be found. Can't hurt for sure,..Should be good info to know,..and something just mightbe uncovered that will make a difference when addressed,...

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Well, it has been shown that higher T-levels improve libido.

The way that some t-boosters work is to improve "efficiency" of your existing T-uptake.

In some.. and also older individuals, the Testosterone bonds to other molecules which prevent it from being used correctly. The name of the molecule or substance escapes me at the moment ( I'd have to go dive into the library). But Tribulus is said to prevent this in large part, thereby freeing the Testo to do it's job.

Many things can affect Testo production anyway...overtraining being one of them, general health, obesity, mental attitude, stress, diet,etc.

Testo is also genetic to a degree.

Testosterone also plays a large part in women's sex drive.

If your testo is low , you're not very likely to have a high sex drive.

If your an "older" individual it's probably safe to say that your TO levels are not what they once were. Compared to say 25 years old.

And this is one reason why old guys can't put the muscle on as fast as when they were in their twenties.

Also when you get way older it becomes harder to develop the Type 2B fibers. (Which account for growth)

Older guys are more at the mercy of Cortisol.

The lack of TO and elevation of Cortisol are largely responsible for the mini beer-belly that just won't go away no matter how much an old guy trains.

So should you take and/or cycle TO if your an old guy?

IMO yes. An old lifter needs the following:-

Testosterone
Creatine
Protein powder
L-Glutamine
Increased water intake.
BCAA's.

I would categorize an "old" lifter as anyone over 50 (which puts me in the "fossil" category I guess)

Hevy,..
You hit on a couple interesting things. I'm still confused about the whole overtraining issue,..and Cortisol,..

I have read all sorts of lists of what are said to be sympoms of overtraining, and they seem to be a little universal to me. A lot of what is suppose to be results of overtraining are things I have delt with for years. I have only been back on the iron for a litttle more than a year. I'm very active aside from the lifting however,..Could be age catching up,...:) Can anybody really diagnose overtraining unless it's without a doubt, obvious?

The Cortisol issue has me frustrated as well,...I can't seem to find good info on how to get a solid handle on it, as we age,..Like you said already, it seems us old folks have a real problem with cortisol,...

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