Hey all, I'm just going to cut straight to the point.


Link #1: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/46205-kidney-trouble-cee-creatine-ethyl-ester.html) The questioning begins.

Link #2: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/541145-post20.html) Negative reaction.

Link #3: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/544695-post30.html)

hm, well this is all a bit scary. i had assumed that the safety track record of CEE was sort of equivalent to that of mono. i may rethink my use of CEE after reading this. it just gives a bit of an edge, so why take chances?


Link #4: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/559959-post34.html)

...

Also, as I was googling this earlier, it seems that your average CEE product already contains a good portion of creatinine in the tub. This is according to the kre alkalyn website and the third party analysis posted on bodybuilding. com. Could ingesting so much creatinine straight off the bat be the culprit of these kidney problems?


Link #5: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/560686-post38.html)

I found this study while snooping around the FDA website: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/doc...-06-vol181.pdf

It details a study in which five subjects were administered 5g of CEE a day. Of the five one developed higher than acceptable serum creatinine levels of 1.7 mg/dl. Not extraordinarily high, but it does give one pause. If an adverse effect occurred in such a small sample size what does that say of the population at large? What would happen with a much larger sample size? I think we are seeing the effects.

There seems to be a lot on the FDA website about CEE. Have a look see if interested. A few papers present data that cast aspersion on the stuff. I won't go there because it is off topic and sure to spark a flame, but much of the data suggests that creatine ethyl ester is at best just crappy monohydrate or at worst mostly ineffective. A total bummer for me. I just bought a kilo in bulk. I guess I'll be tossing it.


Link #6: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/560706-post42.html) What, by the end of this post, you may be thinking.

Of course what someone decides to put in their own body is their own perogative, but why use CEE at all if the substance has been proven neither safe nor effective? After researching it a bit I feel kind of like a dope for just aimlessly following the crowd. I thought I was already careful, but I think I'll be even more judicious in my supplement use in the future.


Link #7: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/560833-post47.html) Irony.

Link #8: (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part1a.jpg) (#1) CEE Product Analysis
Link #9: (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part1b.jpg) (#1) CEE Analysis Conclusion

Link #10: (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part2a.jpg) (#2) CEE Product Analysis
Link #11: (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part2b.jpg) (#2) CEE Analysis Conclusion

Link #12: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/562229-post52.html)

... BSN has an OK rep, and I would think that their stuff contains near 100% of the reported amount of CEE. But it's possible that Cellmass is impure, and my concentration of CEE has been much lower than I thought. This is one reasonable explaination for my normal serum creatinine levels.


Link #13: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/562272-post55.html) Another negative reaction.

Link #14: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/563140-post62.html)

Also, here is a link (http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jacsat/1955/77/i01/f-pdf/f_ja01606a060.pdf?sessid=6006l3) to a paper published in the 50s that calls into question the validity/legitamacy of the esterfied version of creatine (CEE). Their conclusion is in agreement with the spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding. com, that CEE is mostly creatinine. It also states that CEE was supposedly created by adding hydrochloric acid to creatine monohydrate. This is interesting because the spectrum analysis I previously posted states that many CEE products are just monohydrate with an acid added. So to sum up this paper, CEE is bogus and has been for a long time.

Digging on search engines, it looks like there is really no hard evidence supporting CEE beyond anecdotal experience. If someone knows any different please feel free to chime in.


Link #15: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/563409-post64.html)

Wow, that is quite a revealing paper. Being that CEE appears so labile, my guess is that users must really be reporting the effects of just good old creatine mono. Nice find.


Link #16: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/563908-post68.html)

... But I also have noticed a marked decrease in the retention of water. That is, I have noticibly more definition. So much so that my girlfriend has commented. I didn't realize it was happening while I was taking the stuff, but CEE has to have been the culprit. Regular old mono does the same thing to me, so this too makes me doubt that CEE is really any different than mono. ...


Link #17 (Reference): (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/564159-post70.html)
Link #18: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/564245-post72.html)


Bruhs,
Good work...this thread is VERY interesting and informative. I feel so enlightened.

I do have an interesting comment though. When I was taking CEE, or what I thought was CEE, I had waaaayyyy less water retention and much more vascularity than with C Mono...so what else could the extras be to produce this. I did notice the diuretic effect when I came off CEE but then again it didn't make me hold that much water to begin with.

I'm confused :confused:

Just a shot in the dark, but could it be because you took less CEE than you did of mono?

...


Link #19: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/564867-post75.html) Yet another negative reaction.

Link #20: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/564888-post76.html) Priorities.

Funny thing is yesturday was my second day of the cycle at 2.5g ED of cee. I started feeling the symptoms on day one, but really started feeling the kidney pressure on day two. Then again i seem to be more sensitive to supplements, always having to dose at a lower dose then what's recommended. I too never felt the problems on regular mono, but regular mono never really did anything for me at 10g's ED besides giving me stomach cramps.

Even after only two days of CEE i definitely notice the vascularity difference between being on it and not. But my kidney is numero uno so no more CEE for me. Great discussion.


Link #21: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/567058-post83.html)

As I said ealier, my blood tests showed my kidney functions to be much better after ending cee for a few days and drinking gallons of water.

When I switched to another form of creatine, like in Pro's "Pump Juice", I had a slight raise in my Cratine level, but no where near as bad as when using CEE.

Bottom line for me: I wont be using any CEE products anymore. I will be using creatine products containing real creatine monohydrate or a few others, like the form found in Pump Juice. I get great results from it and my kidney doesn't seem to suffer! Great product

Pro!


Link #22 (Reference): (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/574352-post86.html)
Link #23: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/574449-post88.html) Priorities re-visited


...

On a general note - I don't know if this has been stated before in this thread (apologize if it did) but the absorption of CEE is according to the numbers provided in the patent application by the Univ. of Nebraska vastly higher than that of monhydrate (at least 10 times). So if you think you can dose it like mono you might screw yourself.

True, But I have used regular creatine at 20 grams per day with no problem. The CEE gave me trouble at 5 grams per day, so I dropped it to 2-3 grams per day. Still had the same problems with my kidney.

This is a real bummer because I love the pump CEE would give me, especially stacked with a good NO product! But, I guess sacraficing ones kidney is not worth a good pump


Link #24: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/575327-post94.html) Oh, no! Yes, another negative reaction.

Link #25: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/575481-post95.html)

...

What I'm saying is that bodybuilders and other sports enthusiasts are trying their hardest to put on muscle, lose fat, and increase endurance by using substances, "supplements", that are, in all effect, completely untested (for efficacy and safety). I'm fairly concerned that there are serious health risks associated with these substances. Maybe this is an old topic of debate, but after reading so many posts about claimed adverse affects from supplements, it kind of gets me thinking.

Does anyone REALLY know WTF even half of these supplements are doing to us in the short-term? Long-term? Short-term, maybe. Long-term, highly doubtful. Sometimes I just think it's stupid that we're jamming all these chemicals into ourselves, blowing wads of money, then reaping a few measly pounds of muscle (if any!). All the while, we may be destorying our livers, kidneys, heart (thermos!), etc.

...


Link #26: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/575501-post96.html) Hustled?

Well founded points. Risk/reward is skewed. However, I don't think you need to take it to the extreme of anabolic steroids or other illegal supplementation. There are many other time test substances on the market (why protein, creatine monohydrate). Because most of us here demand so much of ourselves, we push what we put in our bodies. This plays into the hands of many supplement providers.

I'm not saying that all supplement providers nor all CEE providers have opportunistic intentions. But many of us curse our lawmakers for taking away a whole class of supplements (PHs) for the purpose of protecting a minority that refused to educate and safeguard itself, while we do the exact such thing with supplements such as CEE. If we provide lip service to the idea of self-regulation, then we should not be surprised when such a privilege is taken away from us. Unfortunately, widespread cynicism is the key. We can't take it for granted when a supplement provider's information regarding the safety of their product is based on an entirely different compound, as it is with CEE. Saying Creatine Ethyl Ester is safe because it is made from Creatine Monohydrate is like saying methanphetamine is safe because it is made from sudafed. IMHO, of course.

Link #27: (http://anabolicminds.com/forum/574727-post91.html) The Clincher.

As I've stated numerous times, I'm no chemist. So you won't find me trying to dicipher the esoteric terminology used in the patent. However, it is clear that the methodology used is based on a previously disproved paper. The patent references and draws heavily on the previous work of Dox and Yoder and their 1922 paper The Esterfication of Creatine. One such example is the following paragraph:

Although the formulation of creatine ethyl ester is disclosed, it should be apparent that a variety of creatine esters may be produced utilizing analogous reaction systems without departing from the spirit and scope of the present invention. See Dox., A.W.; Yoder, L. Esterifcation of Creatine. J. Biol. Chem. 1922, 67,671-673, 20 which is herein incorporated by reference in its entirety. For instance, a variety of methods of producing a creatine ester are contemplated without departing from the spirit and scope of the present invention, such as the methods aud process shown in FIG. 4, wherein X may include a leaving group. Although the use of creatine monohydrate is disclosed, a variety of creatine containing starting compounds are 25 contemplated by the present invention, creatine monohydrate being disclosed merely because of its availability.

The problem lies in the fact that Dox and Yoder were proven wrong over fifty years ago. Dox and Yoder claimed to create creatine ethyl ester but it was proven to be just creatinine. The paper I linked to earlier (Creatine Ethyl Ether BY JAMES D. MOLD, ROBERT C. GORE, JOSEPH M. LYNCH AND E. J. SCHANTZ) itself dismantles Dox and Yoder's work as well as references others who have as well. Here are snippets:

Kapfhammer repeated the preparation of several of these compounds and confirmed the findings of Dox and Yoder. He pointed out, however, that the behavior of these compounds in chemical reactions and toward colorimetric tests and precipitating agents was typical of creatinine and not of creatine.

More.........

Farlane later showed ........ when the chloride was re-moved by shaking creatine methyl ester hydro-chloride with silver carbonate prior to the nitrous acid treatment, only 41y0 of the total nitrogen was evolved, suggesting that a conversion to creatinine may have occurred. Failey and Brand, upon careful electrometric titration of creatine methyl ester hydrochloride with sodium hydroxide, noted an irreversible conversion during the titration, with the end-product giving a titration curve identical to creatinine.


So, I know people will continue using and buying CEE, but I'm quite satisfied that it is bunk now. I have no doubt that the esterfication of creatine would be a boon and would be theoretically superior, but it just doesn't seem to actually have been executed. The fact that the University of Nebraska is involved doesn't impress me either. That's not me being an Ivy League snob, that's me knowing that academics are incredibly fallable. There is a lot to be gained from fudging your lab results.

Overall, given what the patent application contained, I'm not surprised that it was rejected. But does anyone know the exact reason stated for its rejection? I mean, CreaTate is based on dubious science as well, yet it was approved for a patent. How unsubstantiated does something have to be to be outright rejected?

The amount of negative reactions are not limited to the ones I linked to; I only linked to ones that I felt provided the most compelling insight to the individual's case.

Please realize that I'm not saying Creatine Monohydrate is fake, but rather that it is possible that CEE is. With so many people not only on this forum, but in the rest of the health/fitness population in general, I think that if indeed CEE proves to be fake, it could be one of the biggest scams in the history of marketing. Think of what it could mean: kidney problems encountered on a grand scale. That, most definitely, would not be good.

So what do you think? :read::flex:

Looks to me like a lot of speculation, no proven cause and effect, one study of one brand that appears fake and that's about it.

I've no troubles with CEE. I get volume, mass, and no side-effects.

3g of CEE before and after ever workout for quite some time now. Just had bloodwork done a month ago and my kidneys were totally fine.

Geeeeeesh...seems like everybody and their brother is using this stuff. Personally, I can't even imagine that anything could be more effective than the Creatine Select (http://www.dpsnutrition.net/get_item_bv031.htm) that I use occasionally. I don't know what I'd do with anymore energy than that. Ethyl Ester sounds like one of the characters from I Love Lucy.

Geeeeeesh...seems like everybody and their brother is using this stuff. Personally, I can't even imagine that anything could be more effective than the Creatine Select (http://www.dpsnutrition.net/get_item_bv031.htm) that I use occasionally. I don't know what I'd do with anymore energy than that. Ethyl Ester sounds like one of the characters from I Love Lucy.
HA! I'm about to go mix some Creatine Select in water. :)

HA! I'm about to go mix some Creatine Select in water. :)
No shit? When did you start using CS? I always thought that you were a big CEE guy yourself.

No shit? When did you start using CS? I always thought that you were a big CEE guy yourself.
I was, but I wanted to try something new. Been using it for about 2-3 months. I took some time off and I am back on it starting last week. Just out of curiosity I actually tried loading too. This was at the same time I increased my veggie content, so I'm not sure what has me in the bathroom all day. :lol:

Would have gone with straight powder (had good results with AST's micronized), but I wanted something with flavor, and everything I've used from them has tasted at least decent.

I was, but I wanted to try something new. Been using it for about 2-3 months. I took some time off and I am back on it starting last week. Just out of curiosity I actually tried loading too. This was at the same time I increased my veggie content, so I'm not sure what has me in the bathroom all day. :lol:

Would have gone with straight powder (had good results with AST's micronized), but I wanted something with flavor, and everything I've used from them has tasted at least decent.

gtx you should know different - considering creatine is a steroid. :nono:

Can you believe i had a disagreemnet with a few women and some wuss a few nights ago who thought creatine was a steroid. Its crazy what the media can spin. :doh:

Heh it is funny, I got that comment from a fat friend of mine too who never train weights.

"creatine is a steroid" "it is useless" "it is dangerous".

:mad:

I was, but I wanted to try something new. Been using it for about 2-3 months. I took some time off and I am back on it starting last week. Just out of curiosity I actually tried loading too. This was at the same time I increased my veggie content, so I'm not sure what has me in the bathroom all day. :lol:
Did you do a full 5 day load? I've had really good results with CS with as little as 25g for two days, and maintaining at 5g per day afterwards. I think my body just responds well to just about anything I throw at it. :D
I'd have to guess that it's the veggies that've got you on the crapper all day. All those veggies sounds somewhat familiar...are you following that diet we were talking about? (This thread just went from CEE to increased/extended visits to the crapper...:whistle: )

Did you do a full 5 day load? I've had really good results with CS with as little as 25g for two days, and maintaining at 5g per day afterwards. I think my body just responds well to just about anything I throw at it. :D
I'd have to guess that it's the veggies that've got you on the crapper all day. All those veggies sounds somewhat familiar...are you following that diet we were talking about? (This thread just went from CEE to increased/extended visits to the crapper...:whistle: )
Stomach issues, and Walt says "a 5 day load." HAHAHAHA (I'm so juvenile!)

I stopped just short of 4 days averaging 20g/day (morning/afternoon/preworkout/evening). Last run with CS I was doing it during workout, which I liked okay, but I don't know if I'm going to do that anymore.

No, I'm not using "that" diet, but my diet is similar (has been for the last few months). Studying it though did make me feel my vegetable intake was too low, so I have increased it. Their veggie intake is quite a lot; EVERY SINGLE MEAL. :eek: Creatine monohydrate loading does seem to cause more frequent visits to the bathroom (for me), but I think you're right and that it's the extra veggies.

I picked up some asparagus the other day, going to see if I can figure out a way to make it without puking (nasty, from what I remember, but I need more variety).

I have no idea if it's fake, but it probably isn't all that it's hyped up to be. I've gone to mono myself. As soon as I start back on it that is.

I had good results while on CEE, but I think that was from lifting weights and doing cadio- not the supplement. Plus it was a proprietary blend with all kinds of other stuff in there.

Nice post paradise with all those links. Good stuff to think about. :tucool:

Stomach issues, and Walt says "a 5 day load." HAHAHAHA (I'm so juvenile!)

I stopped just short of 4 days averaging 20g/day (morning/afternoon/preworkout/evening). Last run with CS I was doing it during workout, which I liked okay, but I don't know if I'm going to do that anymore.

No, I'm not using "that" diet, but my diet is similar (has been for the last few months). Studying it though did make me feel my vegetable intake was too low, so I have increased it. Their veggie intake is quite a lot; EVERY SINGLE MEAL. :eek: Creatine monohydrate loading does seem to cause more frequent visits to the bathroom (for me), but I think you're right and that it's the extra veggies.

I picked up some asparagus the other day, going to see if I can figure out a way to make it without puking (nasty, from what I remember, but I need more variety).
For your reading enjoyment while visiting your new porcelain friend. The history of Thomas Crapper (http://www.thomas-crapper.com/history02.asp). :lol:

For your reading enjoyment while visiting your new porcelain friend. The history of Thomas Crapper (http://www.thomas-crapper.com/history02.asp). :lol:
You don't know Jack S.... (http://home.pacbell.net/diana_do/knowjack.htm)

So do you all think this is crazy, and unfounded based on what has been reported, or do you think there is some validity to the idea,...??

I have only use CEE myself, and never experienced Monhydrate. Of you that have used both, can you tell a difference, or describe the differences you experienced?

>>>--->

I have only use CEE myself, and never experienced Monhydrate. Of you that have used both, can you tell a difference, or describe the differences you experienced? >>>--->

I have only used monohydrate, never used CEE. It sounded hyped and I got all the results, I wanted at a low cost.:tu:

I picked up some asparagus the other day, going to see if I can figure out a way to make it without puking (nasty, from what I remember, but I need more variety).

My favorite way to prepare asparagus is on the grill. Toss it in a little olive oil, add fressh ground pepper and sprinkle in some nice sea salt. Grill it quicky and Bam! Great tasting asparagus. No matter how you end up cooking it, dont cook it too long. So many people over cook asparagus.

So do you all think this is crazy, and unfounded based on what has been reported, or do you think there is some validity to the idea,...??

I have only use CEE myself, and never experienced Monhydrate. Of you that have used both, can you tell a difference, or describe the differences you experienced?

>>>--->

Out of interest have you ever worked out without it, or did you use it from the start?

if you don't like asparagus i wouldn't force feed yourself with it. Try something else. do you eat sweetcorn?

My favorite way to prepare asparagus is on the grill. Toss it in a little olive oil, add fressh ground pepper and sprinkle in some nice sea salt. Grill it quicky and Bam! Great tasting asparagus. No matter how you end up cooking it, dont cook it too long. So many people over cook asparagus.
Thanks!! I will certainly try this. I appreciate it!

if you don't like asparagus i wouldn't force feed yourself with it. Try something else. do you eat sweetcorn?
You're right; I won't force myself if I don't like it. :) And I like sweetcorn but don't eat much corn lately.

Walt and RTE are both corny. :)

I put this in my journal the other day about asparagus. First time I ate it this way, and I liked the change (I like asparagus, though):

For the side, I cooked up a couple of servings (6 oz or so) of asparagus Italian style. Took 1/4 cup tomato paste w 1/4 cup water, 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/4 tsp garlic powder, black pepper and salt. Mixed those ingredients, and poured over the asparagus in a cooking sprayed dish. Sprinkled a bit (1/4 oz?) of colby jack on top (didn't have parmesan). Baked for 25 minutes at 350. Mmmmm. First time I've tried this, but will do it again.

Out of interest have you ever worked out without it, or did you use it from the start?

mr.d,..

Yes,,When I first started back on the iron, I worked out quite a few months without any suplimentation. I began to look into what I could use to help things a long a bit,..More from a recovery interest, and found so much on Creatine, that I wanted to give it a trial run. Based on all the hype of CEE, I began my creatine use, with BSN's Cell Mass. I saw what I thought were to be good results. Shortly after beginning use, say three weeks or so, I saw a good number of my lifts increase pretty well, and a deffinate change in the way I looked. Mostly after my workouts.

I then took it a step or two further, in the quest to help things along even more, and added in No-Explode which I quickly aborted, as it just didn't agree with my system. Then I started the use of "NO" prodcuts. BSN's Nitrix to begin with, but as a "Tight Wad", I did some research and ended up just suplimenting with Citrulline, which is in a lot of the Creatine, and "NO" products anyway,...

These two supliments along with BCAA's, Protein powder, good ol Vitamins, Fish Oil,and a couple other "staple" sups is what I have been using as a stack.

This is where it gets interesting,...and the reason I ask weather any of the more experienced lifters here feel the claim that CEE is a joke or not. I ran out of the Cell Mass, and as I stated before, I'm a Tight Wad, or shall I say, " Frugal" person. I don't mind spending the cash if something is worth it, but if it can be had, or an alternative, of the same quality or better, can be had at a lesser cost, I'm there :tucool:
I ordered up a small tub of Bulk CEE, and began using it. I swear, I have shrunk up a bit in my apearence. My lifts have kept going up, but it seems I have lost a little size,...After cruising through some of the links posted earlier, and having read the claims of this elswere, I got to thinking that maybe the Cell Mass was't actually CEE, as stated to be possible, and the size I was experiencing early on in the use of it, was water weight asociated with it actually being Monohydrate,...???

I'm ready to try a different type of creatine, to better understand what may have happened, as I sure don't feel the same as I did on the Cell Mass, That's for sure.

I have read a good deal about the "Micronised" creatine, and the Beverly product Kino linked to earlier as well,...I'm going to be on the road for a few days, and don't know if I will be using creatine while I'm gone. I may use that time to cycle off, and then try something new whaen I return,...

Any experienced opinions, greatly appreciated,...

>>>--->

mr.d,..

Yes,,When I first started back on the iron, I worked out quite a few months without any suplimentation. I began to look into what I could use to help things a long a bit,..More from a recovery interest, and found so much on Creatine, that I wanted to give it a trial run. Based on all the hype of CEE, I began my creatine use, with BSN's Cell Mass. I saw what I thought were to be good results. Shortly after beginning use, say three weeks or so, I saw a good number of my lifts increase pretty well, and a deffinate change in the way I looked. Mostly after my workouts.

I then took it a step or two further, in the quest to help things along even more, and added in No-Explode which I quickly aborted, as it just didn't agree with my system. Then I started the use of "NO" prodcuts. BSN's Nitrix to begin with, but as a "Tight Wad", I did some research and ended up just suplimenting with Citrulline, which is in a lot of the Creatine, and "NO" products anyway,...

These two supliments along with BCAA's, Protein powder, good ol Vitamins, Fish Oil,and a couple other "staple" sups is what I have been using as a stack.

This is where it gets interesting,...and the reason I ask weather any of the more experienced lifters here feel the claim that CEE is a joke or not. I ran out of the Cell Mass, and as I stated before, I'm a Tight Wad, or shall I say, " Frugal" person. I don't mind spending the cash if something is worth it, but if it can be had, or an alternative, of the same quality or better, can be had at a lesser cost, I'm there :tucool:
I ordered up a small tub of Bulk CEE, and began using it. I swear, I have shrunk up a bit in my apearence. My lifts have kept going up, but it seems I have lost a little size,...After cruising through some of the links posted earlier, and having read the claims of this elswere, I got to thinking that maybe the Cell Mass was't actually CEE, as stated to be possible, and the size I was experiencing early on in the use of it, was water weight asociated with it actually being Monohydrate,...???

I'm ready to try a different type of creatine, to better understand what may have happened, as I sure don't feel the same as I did on the Cell Mass, That's for sure.

I have read a good deal about the "Micronised" creatine, and the Beverly product Kino linked to earlier as well,...I'm going to be on the road for a few days, and don't know if I will be using creatine while I'm gone. I may use that time to cycle off, and then try something new whaen I return,...

Any experienced opinions, greatly appreciated,...

>>>--->

I can't offer advice on the creatine because I would be unwilling to take something like that. I had a friend that got the same results as you, he lost size like you when he stopped taking it. I think your loss is glycogen stores being depleted as it tends to increase glycogen stores and water uptake. You haven't lost muscle though, I don't think.

did it increase your lifting power? that bit interests me, how much are your workouts enhanced by the CM/CEE?


this Citrulline is news to me as well. what's that supposed to do?

I can't offer advice on the creatine because I would be unwilling to take something like that. I had a friend that got the same results as you, he lost size like you when he stopped taking it. I think your loss is glycogen stores being depleted as it tends to increase glycogen stores and water uptake. You haven't lost muscle though, I don't think.

did it increase your lifting power? that bit interests me, how much are your workouts enhanced by the CM/CEE?


this Citrulline is news to me as well. what's that supposed to do?

My workouts seemed to get more intense. Not to a great degree, but a little, and I felt I saw improvements early on. Then after a while seem to slow a bit. I hit a little bit of a slow down when I was switching over to the straight CEE, but also switche routines at the same time as well,..The new routine was more intense, as far as frequency goes, as the new routine has me working the same muscle groups twice a week, as apposed to once. I got worn out like nobodies business. Just beat, I mean BEAT. I had to work an extra recovery day between lifting days. It was just too much to do two days in a row.

Strange thing after getting that under control however, as I mentioned before was,..Even though I felt I was shrinking a bit, the weights I was lifting have kept going up. I am trimming of a little fat at the same time, so I'm not exactly "Bulking". I'm trying to get rid of a little fat around my midsection before I go head long into any type of bulk. It's taking a toll on me though,...

In addition to how the Cell Mass effected my lifts, I'm not on it now, but the straight CEE, and last week decided to go heavy on all my lifts for a couple weeks,..Iupped the weights a fair amount for the working sets, and surprised myself by repping the new weights, some just as high as the previous weight,a nd some all but the same. I have decided to maintain those new weights as my working set weights for now.

Well,..If anybody else has comment to whats been going on, or on the argument that CEE is a fake, please chime in,..I'm interested in others experiences with both,...Mono,and CEE,...

Late edit,.Sorry,...Citrulline is a vasodialator. It works like the Nitrix, NO2, and the like. It's just a simple solution the using "NO" products.

Thanks again,...>>>--->

Asparagus is the work of Satan. There is no way to make it taste good.

Stop eating it.

Well first, I don't understand how in the world toilet's and asparagus became topics of discussion in a thread that, if was to stay on topic, should harbor the discussion of whether or not CEE is fake. Really, I don't understand how it's continued to go off-topic (I checked this thread yesterday after 13 replies and saw most of the replies were off-topic... I check back today, and still most of the new ones are off-topic). Click Here (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=4) to talk about asparagus and your toilet. :tu: Maybe I should start talking Quantum Physics in random Media Gallery threads? :confused:



Looks to me like a lot of speculation, no proven cause and effect, one study of one brand that appears fake and that's about it.

I've no troubles with CEE. I get volume, mass, and no side-effects.

How far into my original post did you read?
Did you look at the lab results? Namely, this one (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part1b.jpg)? (If you didn't previously, scroll down to the bottom to find their conclusion... after testing/"carefully reviewing" every CEE product on the market).



3g of CEE before and after ever workout for quite some time now. Just had bloodwork done a month ago and my kidneys were totally fine.

Interesting. Do you have any idea/happen to remember what your creatinine levels were?



So do you all think this is crazy, and unfounded based on what has been reported, or do you think there is some validity to the idea,...??

I have only use CEE myself, and never experienced Monhydrate. Of you that have used both, can you tell a difference, or describe the differences you experienced?

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I think it could have some validity; especially given that the labs that reviewed CEE did so as a 3rd-Party. In other words, they were in no way affiliated with any company and had nothing to gain by either approving or disproving the validity of CEE.


My workouts seemed to get more intense. Not to a great degree, but a little, and I felt I saw improvements early on. Then after a while seem to slow a bit. I hit a little bit of a slow down when I was switching over to the straight CEE, but also switche routines at the same time as well,..The new routine was more intense, as far as frequency goes, as the new routine has me working the same muscle groups twice a week, as apposed to once. I got worn out like nobodies business. Just beat, I mean BEAT. I had to work an extra recovery day between lifting days. It was just too much to do two days in a row.

Strange thing after getting that under control however, as I mentioned before was,..Even though I felt I was shrinking a bit, the weights I was lifting have kept going up. I am trimming of a little fat at the same time, so I'm not exactly "Bulking". I'm trying to get rid of a little fat around my midsection before I go head long into any type of bulk. It's taking a toll on me though,...

In addition to how the Cell Mass effected my lifts, I'm not on it now, but the straight CEE, and last week decided to go heavy on all my lifts for a couple weeks,..Iupped the weights a fair amount for the working sets, and surprised myself by repping the new weights, some just as high as the previous weight,a nd some all but the same. I have decided to maintain those new weights as my working set weights for now.

Well,..If anybody else has comment to whats been going on, or on the argument that CEE is a fake, please chime in,..I'm interested in others experiences with both,...Mono,and CEE,...

Late edit,.Sorry,...Citrulline is a vasodialator. It works like the Nitrix, NO2, and the like. It's just a simple solution the using "NO" products.

Thanks again,...>>>--->


So you have yet to be able to attribute any effects to CEE (not Creatine in general)? Wouldn't it be safe to say that in your 3rd paragraph when you said that you decided to "up" your weights last week, that it could've been expected even if you hadn't switched over? Perhaps you'd coincidentally gained enough to allow you to lift a new weight, and you just happened to give these new weight amounts a try at the same time you decided to try "straight CEE"? Or in other words, do you think that if you'd just stayed on the old Creatine and done the same thing last week (up'd your weight) you would've found that you'd still increased in strength?


I was going to say this in my original post (not sure why I didn't), but I'm in no way affiliated with any supplement company and have nothing to gain (or lose) from anything concluded by anything that questions the authenticity/legitimacy of CEE. The only thing I would gain is knowledge (okay, so I'd gain 1 thing).


Keep the thoughts coming, they all count! :tucool:

So you have yet to be able to attribute any effects to CEE (not Creatine in general)? Wouldn't it be safe to say that in your 3rd paragraph when you said that you decided to "up" your weights last week, that it could've been expected even if you hadn't switched over? Perhaps you'd coincidentally gained enough to allow you to lift a new weight, and you just happened to give these new weight amounts a try at the same time you decided to try "straight CEE"? Or in other words, do you think that if you'd just stayed on the old Creatine and done the same thing last week (up'd your weight) you would've found that you'd still increased in strength?

That is exactly what I feel,....I can in no way relate the recent poundage increases to the CEE. On the flip side of that, I do feel that when I first began use of the Cell Mass,..."Suppose to be CEE", I felt I did see some faster gains in poundage increases. Again, can't say for absolutly sure, but it sure seemed to come a bit quicker than had been previously,...

Both of these experiences, coupled with the "perceived" shrinking in over all size,..(Could be I'm just getting more lean, as I am trying to lose a bit of lose skin, "and taking steps to do so", around my belly), does make me wonder for sure as to what is really going on between the two different products,....

I would really like some others input as to what they experienced with various brands of creatine,.."Mono vs CEE", or just different brands in general,...Without a doubt, I will be using something different very shortly, to further explain what I have experienced so far,...

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For what it's worth, I don't think it's fair to use CellMass as a means to judge the efficacy of CEE. Unless they've changed the formula or I've developed Alzheimer's (and I'm on a lot of drugs right now so I may just be completely out of it), CellMass is based around Creatine Ethyl Ester Malate, which is CEE that has been bonded to Malic Acid. They argue that it is superior to other forms of a creatine in a variety of ways, while others argue that it's just a nonsense modification to the molecule to justify a price premium.

Either way, it's not regular CEE so whether you get better results or worse results with it would not be an indicator of CEE's effectiveness.

Personally, I definitely noticed a difference between CEE and monohydrate, primarily in regards to bloating. If I don't take my creatine for some reason before lifting or HIIT (which I do sometimes) I DO perceive a difference in terms of my muscular endurance.

My 2 cents.

Note: PRESCRIPTION Drugs. :D

For what it's worth, I don't think it's fair to use CellMass as a means to judge the efficacy of CEE. Unless they've changed the formula or I've developed Alzheimer's (and I'm on a lot of drugs right now so I may just be completely out of it), CellMass is based around Creatine Ethyl Ester Malate, which is CEE that has been bonded to Malic Acid. They argue that it is superior to other forms of a creatine in a variety of ways, while others argue that it's just a nonsense modification to the molecule to justify a price premium.

Either way, it's not regular CEE so whether you get better results or worse results with it would not be an indicator of CEE's effectiveness.

Personally, I definitely noticed a difference between CEE and monohydrate, primarily in regards to bloating. If I don't take my creatine for some reason before lifting or HIIT (which I do sometimes) I DO perceive a difference in terms of my muscular endurance.

My 2 cents.

Note: PRESCRIPTION Drugs. :D

Glaive,..
Very interesting indeed,..I did not realize the Cell Mass was suppose to be supierior to regular CEE. If in fact there is much of a difference, then that may very well be the reason I saw a decrease in what I felt was a result of the use of the prodcut, after I switched,...Hmmm,...I think it would be worth a second try to see how it goes second time around then,....It is expensive though. That's for sure. I will have to locate a reasonable source, and try it again,...

I will deffinately report back on this, as I think many can benifit from this type of info,..

Thanks for the insight,...

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I'm on a sillywb TV keyboard in a hotel,s pleas bear with me. I know my spelling is't th best to begin ith, but this doesn't help,..:)

Anyway, just curious if there wee any othes tat oul post exprience it their seof CEE vs Mnohydrate, or othe frm of creatine. I wasplanning to ty the Beverly Intl. CEE creatine shorly, that is supos to be bonde to a dfferent molecule to help furte it's uptake as wl,..It may be the same Mlte that BSN is using, I wa going to double check this efre I make any ordes.I remeber a whilw back reading smething on it,..

Has anybody use this produc fo Beerly?

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