Basically - I want to be able to hold 550 W of power (which is going about 32 mph on a bike) at a lower heart rate than I currently am.

Right now going 32 mph, my heart rate is at 180bpm, which is 93% maxHR, putting out about 550 Watts of power.
What kind of training should I do for me to put out the same wattage at 170 bpm instead of 180?

Basically - I want to be able to hold 550 W of power (which is going about 32 mph on a bike) at a lower heart rate than I currently am.

Right now going 32 mph, my heart rate is at 180bpm, which is 93% maxHR, putting out about 550 Watts of power.
What kind of training should I do for me to put out the same wattage at 170 bpm instead of 180?

550 Watts is a bit deal - but you knew that. There is only one way I can think of that you can lower the heart rate at which you generate 550 Watts. You have to increase your absolute VO2max. 550 Watts is 6.5 liters of oxygen per minute. So if you increase your maximum rate of oxygen consumed per minute (absolute VO2max) that will reduce the heart rate at which that output is produced.

Since your (relative) VO2max is what, 79 ml/kg/min, last time it was measured? There isn't a lot of room for improvement just further training the muscle you have. So you have to think about increasing the denominator - add some kg of muscle. Each kg of muscle you add will increase your absolute VO2max by 79 ml/min.

In other words - if you are about 185# - 84kg - then your relative VO2max of 79 translates into an absolute VO2max of 6.6 liters/minute. This predicts that 550 Watt is 98% of VO2max (a bit higher than your number - did I use a low value for your weight or VO2max?). If you got up to 195# without adding any fat, you would be at an absolute VO2max of about 6.8 liters/minute. This would reduce the fraction of VO2max you need to get the 550 Watts down to 96% of VO2max.

So you would get your MHR fraction down by about 1.4% for every 2% reduction in VO2max feaction. If you find you are at about 93% then the muscle gain I described would get you down to a bit above 91%, possibly lower.

Now you can minimize the weight gained with the muscle increase if you can manage to keep the muscle gain limited to your legs.

If you adopt this strategy, you will be going for endurance hypertrophy. That program will look a lot like what you are already doing - intervals, long constant speed work, but you want to increase the hills of the intervals.


I know your plan is to get catabolic to help with the hills. But Adding pure muscle should actually help with the hills a little, as well as helping with your flat time a whole lot.

7 liters/minute is serious business. 8 liters/minute is like the world record for that (Matthew Pinsent, 4 Olympic gold medals in rowing).

Thanks for the great reply as always.
Lets talk about intervals...

I'm sure this is just basic HIIT/VO2Max training knowledge, but lets say i go up a long steap hill for 5 minutes, and my heart is blasting out of my chest the entire way @ 185 bpm.
When i get to the top, I want to go back down and do it again. (so lets say 3 minutes of decending/rest)

Should the rest time be longer?
Where should i try to keep my heart rate at during my rest?

Thanks for the great reply as always.
Lets talk about intervals...

I'm sure this is just basic HIIT/VO2Max training knowledge, but lets say i go up a long steap hill for 5 minutes, and my heart is blasting out of my chest the entire way @ 185 bpm.
When i get to the top, I want to go back down and do it again. (so lets say 3 minutes of decending/rest)

Should the rest time be longer?
Where should i try to keep my heart rate at during my rest?

In your case, do not rest longer. Use your long, constant speed, runs for that part of the training.

When you do your intervals, you want to go up as fast as you can every time. Pain and suffering all the way. When you go back down? Just slow enough that you can do the next interval at almost the same time. In other words, if you go down slowly enough that your second hard interval is as fast as your first hard interval? Then you went down too slowly. Ideally, you should not be able to do each hard interval quite as fast as the one before. So pick a time like 2 minutes - when your hard interval gets as slow as that, then you increase the rest.

The whole point of intervals is to raise your heart rate as high as possible in the hard intervals. Lowering it in the rest intervals is "optional". Think about your intervals as how much total time can you spend above 90% MHR.

The other sort of intervals - where you rest enough that you can do the hard interval again at the same intensity - is for casual athletes like me, not for people who want to ride in the Tour de France. Waiting that long for you is wasting time since you are aiming for big improvement.

Oh yeah: This sort of workout should not be your everyday workout. You want to bust this loose once every week at the most - more like once every two weeks. You should do it hard enough that you have to rest the next day.

Good stuff - thanks.
So on a normal person, these interval sessions would increase their VO2Max the quickest?
(Assuming they allow time for recovery the next day or two)

If I may hijack with a related interval question...

Is the goal as your progress from week to week to complete the interval in a faster time, or to able to maintain the time while completing more repetitions of each interval, or some combination of both?

Good stuff - thanks.
So on a normal person, these interval sessions would increase their VO2Max the quickest?
(Assuming they allow time for recovery the next day or two)

Anyone who wants to increase VO2max has to sort of take inventory of why they don't have a higher VO2max and work on that. It's just like any lift - if you work on the part that is weak, you get more benefit than if you work on the part that is already strong.

The thing about which interval is best for someone comes down to the one they can do at the highest intensity for the most total time.

It's not quite as simple as intensity x total time, because intensity is more important than total time. A good approximation would be something like

intensity x time + constant x intensity^2 x time

but I don't know what the actual value of the constant would be.

If you use a heart monitor which is giving you good calorie counts, then the most calories per interval cycle is the right answer. (As opposed to the most calories during and after exercise, which is the right answer for body composition control).

These really hard intervals have the advantage of maintaining heart hypertrophy, stimulating vascularization from the cardio point of view, and because you go really fast up the hill you get resistance exercise to stimulate the muscle growth. People that think that cycling will not stimulate muscle growth should have a peek at the Tour as it goes through the mountains in the next few days. You can even add weight to your ride to increase the intensity of the hard intervals.

The long, constant speed, flat-ish rides should be done to recruit mitochondria to your muscles. These should be a couple hours or more.

I'm not a cycling coach - I'm using some rowing thinking that I've stolen from Olympic champion rowers. But it should be similar for cycling.

Is the goal as your progress from week to week to complete the interval in a faster time, or to able to maintain the time while completing more repetitions of each interval, or some combination of both?

The goal is to hammer yourself to within an ace of what you can actually stand in the hard intervals. It does not matter whether you do them in the same time, faster time, slower time. You can actually end up doing them slower by working harder in some circumstances (try running al mile on a treadmill with an incline of 15 - go out at 10 miles and hour until you have to slow down - that will take longer than if you correctly judge the pace for that incline, but it's actually likely to have taken a lot more out of you).

Keeping track of the time is fine as a way to estimate how hard you are going, but the heart monitor is better if you don't stay at a fixed pace.

But the object of hard intervals is to exercise at pretty much the nastiest effort you possibly can do for the hard interval.

There are plenty of less intense workouts that you should also do, where it can be more important to maintain a pace for various times, but those are not for building your top end VO2max and lactate threshold.

Taking all of this info into account - my plan will now be this:

Monday: Off
Tuesday: Bike 3 hrs of foundation miles (never going over 155 bpm, or below 140)
Wednesday: Bike 4 hrs of foundation miles
Thursday: Off
Friday: 3.5 hrs of foundation miles
Saturday: 1.5 hrs of pedal spinning ( >110 rpm )
Sunday: 1 hr of Interval Training - Going up and down a huge steep hill, over and over, what it do...

And then i'll increase the stuff slightly every week, maybe making Sunday another rest day as needed, until December 06...
I hope to be doing up to 8 hrs of riding a day by then, at which point i'll be confident in my aerobic system, and go into endurance miles (higher intensity) for about 4 months which will get my anareobic system in check.
Goal VO2Max: Lance Armstrong + 1 (83.8 + 1)
Good times.

Goal VO2Max: Lance Armstrong + 1 (83.8 + 1)

cool

cool
:rolleyes: to your doubting! :mad: :cry:

:rolleyes: to your doubting! :mad: :cry:

I'm not really doubting. Just impressed. You're mostly there already. If you do that, it will be ultra cool. (Remember I'm one of the few people here with a VO2max goal. I think I might get to 65 someday.)

Thanks for the info Zen... I haven't been using my HRM at all for the past six months or so, but I guess I should break it out for my interval work, eh? In the meantime, here's some basic data to chew on...

June 27th - interval running workout
1mi warm up - 8.28
400m #1 - 1.45
400m rec - 2.23
400m #2 - 1.49
400m rec - 2.32
400m #3 - 1.52
400rec - 2.42
400m #4 - 1.54
1 mi cool down - 10.13

July 12th - interval running workout
1 mi warm up - 8.48
400m #1 - 1.44
400m rec - 2.32
400m #2 - 1.49
400m rec - 2.29
400m #3 - 1.52
400m rec - 2.38
400m #4 - 1.54
400m rec - 2.51
400m #5 - 1.56
1 mi cool down - 10.09

See what I was asking about before? My interval times were almost exactly the same, but I added in an extra repeat this week... so am I getting any more fit? Will this lead to more speed in the long term?

See what I was asking about before? My interval times were almost exactly the same, but I added in an extra repeat this week... so am I getting any more fit? Will this lead to more speed in the long term?

It's good for getting more fit. It's not as good for getting more speed. Your recoveries are pretty short and you can still run the hard ones at the same time. You are doing a good workout.

On the other hand, to increase speed, it will be better if you sprint the hard 400m - probably you can get more like 1:10 or 1:20 - I'm just guessing. Then slowly walk two or three minutes for rest - don't worry if you get 400m covered in that time, and sprint again. The point is that your nervous system gets used to running at the faster speed by running at the faster speed. The body has to adjust to speed by running at speed. Plus, the higher speed 400m also pegs your heart rate a bit better than the slower speed ones. So you get more conditioning effect.

If you want to really increase speed, do some of the hard intervals downhill (and some uphill).

There is a good resource for specifically designing intervals for a running program - Fartlek (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/fartlek.htm) and Intervals for energy systems (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/articles/scni1a4.htm).

There is a good resource for specifically designing intervals for a running program - Fartlek (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/fartlek.htm) and Intervals for energy systems (http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/articles/scni1a4.htm).

Interesting links. I know a fair bit about the energy systems from my studies for the CPT exams, but the fartlek article had some good ideas.

One change I have already made to my training program as a result of what I have just read is that instead of continuing the progresion of my 400m intervals to eight reps, I will stop at six reps and then drop back to four reps while increasing the duration to 800m (keeping the recoveries at 400m). Probably better to start conditioning myself to run further at speed...

My understanding of interval training is a little different. All out effort is not required, but a sub maximal level greater than you can sustain normally is.

Also, I prefer time based intervals rather than distance based intervals. Running or riding up a hill I would consider hill intervals (or fixed distances). Regular intervals are done on the same grade but at a higher speed in order to get your heart rate up. The hills have a secondary effect of muscle recruitment and development in addition to improving your aerobic condidtioning.

Here's what I do, warm up. Pedal at a speed to get your heart rate at 65%. Increase speed (or resistence) to increase your heart rate to 80-85% of MHR. Once your heart rate reaches that point, begin timing. Spin there for 1-2 minutes. Then slow way down to allow your heartrate to drop down to 65%. Spin there for 1 minute. Then repeat.
Don't start timing until your heartrate reaches the desired level.

I just don't think you can do more than 3-4 intervals if the level of exertion is maximal for more than a 20-30 seconds. And at only 30 seconds I don't think you're getting as much benefit. Your subsequent "maximal" efforts will also suffer significantly. For example, an all out maximal effort sprint can be maintained for 100-200 meters. At 400 meters, even world class sprinters pace themselves and are unable to maintain a maximal effort. They are able to maintain this for less than 50 seconds.

My understanding of interval training is a little different. All out effort is not required, but a sub maximal level greater than you can sustain normally is.

Here's what I do, warm up. Pedal at a speed to get your heart rate at 65%. Increase speed (or resistence) to increase your heart rate to 80-85% of MHR.

You are talking about an interval that makes sense for someone with a lactate threshold somewhere below 85% MHR and who wants to do long time endurance work.

Untrained people have lactate thresholds typical about 60% of VO2max, which is about 75% MHR - so your workout is good for untrained people. Elite athletes get the lactate threshold up toward 90% VO2max, which is about 95% MHR. 85% MHR is like going through the motions of working out for elite athletes, and not likely to improve their lactate clearance at competition intensity.

If you want to increase speed (as phillydude did) or perform at an elite level (like wh0arume) then the option of a nice comfortable interval that only doesn't get well above the lactate threshold could be a poor use of training time.

I just don't think you can do more than 3-4 intervals if the level of exertion is maximal for more than a 20-30 seconds.

Oh yeah that part.

This is true for some people but not for others. Someone who trains for sprinting, or Olympic weight lifting, it's probably true.

But there are those who train specifically so that a large part of their exertion can come from fat metabolism - which is one part of having a high lactate threshold. It may in fact mean that our maximum effort is not as great as it would be if we didn't train this way. But fat metabolism produces no lactate. And highly aerobically conditioned muscle burns lactate. So even though muscle in this sort of condition might not have as big a maximum contraction as if it was aerobically detrained, it can perform that contraction again and again compared to muscle which is aerobically detrained.

I feel like this is the "Ask zenpharaohs thread"....

How does one know where his lactate threshold is?
On a good day, well rested - I can hold my heart rate around 180bpm forever...
But then on days like today, I feel like i'm giving it my all and my HR is only around 140, and my legs are burning, etc...

Can lactate thresholds change on a day-by-day basis?
For example, if i dont give my legs enough time to recover from the day before, will my quads seep lactate acid at lower efforts?

I feel like this is the "Ask zenpharaohs thread"....

It is for sure -- Cardio King Zen!!! :claplow:

How does one know where his lactate threshold is?

Checked your couch cushions? That is where I found mine hiding...

I feel like this is the "Ask zenpharaohs thread"....

How does one know where his lactate threshold is?
On a good day, well rested - I can hold my heart rate around 180bpm forever...
But then on days like today, I feel like i'm giving it my all and my HR is only around 140, and my legs are burning, etc...

Can lactate thresholds change on a day-by-day basis?
For example, if i dont give my legs enough time to recover from the day before, will my quads seep lactate acid at lower efforts?

Xeno Muller and Lance Armstrong train with the same lactate level measuring device:

Lactate Pro (http://www.operationgadget.com/2004/05/getting_exact_l.html)

Thi is supposed to be a good book on this sort of training. (http://products.ruggedelegance.com/cgi-bin/amazon/amazon_products_feed.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=0736037551)

Lactate threshold does change from day to day, but I'm not sure of all the factors involved in that. I'm pretty sure if you aren't fully recovered, then intramuscular glycogen and intramuscular fat levels are important. Lactic acid will get used up fast if you have a high lactate threshold, so I think that's not the thing to worry about.

Elite athletes get the lactate threshold up toward 90% VO2max, which is about 95% MHR. 85% MHR is like going through the motions of working out for elite athletes, and not likely to improve their lactate clearance at competition intensity.

Who of us are elite athletes though, Zen. I'd venture to say even though everyone here is relatively fit, Elite, is another different world. I've done 5 marathons, several half marathons, 2 100 mile bike rides, a handful of 50 milers. I don't consider myself an elite athlete and the interval training above works pretty good. I'm telling you, full out sprints on a bike from more than 30-40 seconds are VERY difficult. My point being if you aren't able to spend too much time above your lactic acid threshold, are you doing much good?

But I guess you should do what works best for you. And to vary the program so you don't get in a rut. I agree, you can't increase you V02 max effectively if you never get above lactic threshold. And that may be more than 85% in some people.

Who of us are elite athletes though, Zen.

The guy who started the thread for one.

The guy who started the thread for one.

And, someone would can do 60-225# squats when I really think about it! :)

And, someone would can do 60-225# squats when I really think about it! :)

That's more like just "persistent". wh0arume actually has elite level VO2max and might go somewhere with it.