I want to somehow lose 10 lbs of muscle in my upper body (mainly chest and middle back) but it would be nice if i could somehow maintain all of my strength.
Possible? How?

If the above isn't possible, i still want to spot reduce my muscle mass in these areas.
Is it as simple as stop all deadlifts and chest work, while still maintaining my shoulder/trap workouts?

I want to somehow lose 10 lbs of muscle in my upper body (mainly chest and middle back) but it would be nice if i could somehow maintain all of my strength.
Possible? How?

If the above isn't possible, i still want to spot reduce my muscle mass in these areas.
Is it as simple as stop all deadlifts and chest work, while still maintaining my shoulder/trap workouts?

The last person to post a question like this (coincidentally, also a 'woman') was ceremoniously escorted out of JSF forever.

Later man!

don't hijack my shit.
the more weight i lose, the faster i go up hills, and the sooner i can date natalie portman.
u should know this.

How much fat do you have on you now? Why not drop the fat further, or is it already pretty low?

The last person to post a question like this (coincidentally, also a 'woman') was ceremoniously escorted out of JSF forever.

Later man!

Ouch...

I really don't know how you could lose that much muscle in your upper body and still maintain your strength. If I were to try something like this, I'd neglect all upper body work and simply do a max-out on bench press and deadlift once every 2 weeks. If you can keep your max while doing zero training and losing weight (and visible muscle mass/definition) you should reach your goal.

don't hijack my shit.
the more weight i lose, the faster i go up hills, and the sooner i can date natalie portman.
u should know this.

I was being mostly serious. After the 1st of the year someone came in here trying to lose muscle for an, ahem 'post-op' lifestyle and got crucified by the masses.

Just warning you.

BTW -- How far down are you prepared to go:

Ivan Basso
28 years old
6-foot-1, 154 pounds



Floyd Landis
Age: 30
5-10, 152



Jan Ullrich
Age: 32
6-1, 161



Alejandro Valverde
Age: 26
H: 5-10 W: 134





:eek:

Do some maximal strength work - 9-15reps per session using 1-3 compound lifts.

This post makes as much sense as asking how to gain weight on a Jenny Craig forum.

You can't spot reduce fat, I wonder if anyone has ever been successful spot reducing muscle. :confused:

How much fat do you have on you now? Why not drop the fat further, or is it already pretty low?
I'm around 10%, 185lbs, 6'1...
I still plan on losing as much fat as i can this summer/fall, but i still feel a little "top heavy" muscle wise, and the more weight i can lose up there, the better...

This post makes as much sense as asking how to gain weight on a Jenny Craig forum.

You can't spot reduce fat, I wonder if anyone has ever been successful spot reducing muscle. :confused:

I would imagine losing upper body muscle while maintaining or increasing lower body muscle would be easier than losing lower body muscle while maintaining or increasing upper body muscle, but that's just a guess.

I know I wouldn't be as strong as I am in my upper body if it wasn't for my legs and core.

I was being mostly serious. After the 1st of the year someone came in here trying to lose muscle for an, ahem 'post-op' lifestyle and got crucified by the masses.

Just warning you.

BTW -- How far down are you prepared to go:

Ivan Basso
28 years old
6-foot-1, 154 pounds



Floyd Landis
Age: 30
5-10, 152



Jan Ullrich
Age: 32
6-1, 161



Alejandro Valverde
Age: 26
H: 5-10 W: 134





:eek:

actually, the person you're referring to is still here, and posts in a journal regularly.
maybe the thread was closed?

jan ullrich is probably the ideal biking physique, but i still want to keep my shoulders/traps looking good (so i dont look like a skeleton).

10%
Try cutting your bodyfat. Read the sticky threads at the top of each forum section to get started.

:D ;)

Cut your BF% down a good 2-3% and focus on strength on the big compound exercises with a leg and hip dominance.

Parameters:

-- low overall volume (about 15 reps per session or less)
-- low reps (less than 5)
-- heavy weights (80% of 1-RM and higher, unless you dip down for speed work)
-- non-failure
-- frequent sessions (3-4 per week)
-- explosive concentric muscle action

Good exercises to pick and choose throughout all the sessions would be: back squats, front squats, zercher squats, (bulgarian) split squats, band squats, box squats, lunges, step-ups, conventional deadlifts, sumo deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, stiff-legged deadlifts, (bulgarian) one-legged (stiff-legged) deadlifts, band deadlifts, deadlifts from blocks (partials), high pulls, good mornings, calf presses, calf raises, etc.

For the upper body, I'd stick to these lifts: flat bench press, bent-over row, jerk, military press, pull-up. I'd only perform a push and a pull 1-2x per week.

Some good rep schemes might be: 3 x 5, 5 x 3, 4 x 4, 3 x 3, 8 x 2, 6 x 2 or a series of singles.

A routine for example might be:

Monday

Bulgarian Squats: 3 x 5
Romanian Deadlifts: 3 x 5

Calf Press: 3 x 5

Pull-up: 3 x 3

Wednesday

Step-ups: 5 x 3
Bulgarian Deadlifts: 5 x 3

Jerk: 3 x 3
Military Press: 3 x 3

Friday

Band Back Squat: 6 x 2
High Pulls: 6 x 2

Calf Press: 3 x 5

Bent-Over Row: 3 x 3

I don't know what exercises are the best for cycling -- you should find that out, but I'd guess unilateral work. However, this is how you would go about training for pure strength without hypertrophy, meaning your gains are primarily going to be neuromuscular. You want to have a pretty large calorie deficit and I think that you'll be able to continue to get stronger or, at least, maintain your strength while losing weight. I think you'll slowly lose muscle as well as fat.

If you're going to do this, wh0, I want you to do it as heathily as possible and keep you feeling good and strong. Starving yourself, quitting the weights, or trying to burn an inordinate amount of calories would be very bad ideas, IMO.

actually, the person you're referring to is still here, and posts in a journal regularly.

Yeah I missed any crucifixion. I thought the fitness goals were serious and taken seriously. I think the forums have been pretty clear that lots of goals are fine - that's why so often we ask people what their goals are when they ask questions that could have goal dependent answers.

"Hypotrophy" with strength preservation seems like gymnasts and high jumpers would know about.

Cut your BF% down a good 2-3%

I first read this as "Cut your BF% down to a good 2-3%" and I thought, "well, that will make him quite the jolly fellow...."

He's at 185, so dropping that 2-3% would save him about 5 pounds. That is still a bit high if he wants to get down to like 160. Seems like he's going to go with muscle loss to drop the weight.

Seems that rearranging the muscle might actually be done if you increased leg muscle carefully first. Then you could go get catabolic somehow (like a cutting diet with too low training intensity) and lose the muscle uniformly. Alternating cycles of these seem like in principle, you would become more and more lower muscle dominant. I'm just guessing.

How about asking a high level cycling coach?

don't hijack my shit.
the more weight i lose, the faster i go up hills, and the sooner i can date natalie portman.
u should know this.
Lose muscle, run 20 miles a day. Quit the weights. Go vegetarian, no protein. Drink only a little water to quench thirst. If you want more advice we must see full body pictures, wear something where we can see how you look. no baggy pants or shirts. :cool:

I first read this as "Cut your BF% down to a good 2-3%" and I thought, "well, that will make him quite the jolly fellow...."

He's at 185, so dropping that 2-3% would save him about 5 pounds. That is still a bit high if he wants to get down to like 160. Seems like he's going to go with muscle loss to drop the weight.

Seems that rearranging the muscle might actually be done if you increased leg muscle carefully first. Then you could go get catabolic somehow (like a cutting diet with too low training intensity) and lose the muscle uniformly. Alternating cycles of these seem like in principle, you would become more and more lower muscle dominant. I'm just guessing.

How about asking a high level cycling coach?
well, what i've been working on the past few weeks is riding more and more (2-3 hr rides, sometimes riding >4 hrs per day), and i havnt done chest exercises in weeks.
Muscle is hard to lose when you're actually trying to lose it. :doh:

I dont want to drop the calories too low because i still need to maintain/increase my leg strength.
it's a difficult balance...

i'll try what chieckecnierous suggested. that kid's a genious.

remember magnus backstedt winning paris-roubaix? he's 6'3, 205 pounds.

how about maximizing your natural physique and seeing where it can take you?

:gl:

the big swede is huge:

well, what i've been working on the past few weeks is riding more and more (2-3 hr rides, sometimes riding >4 hrs per day), and i havnt done chest exercises in weeks.
Muscle is hard to lose when you're actually trying to lose it. :doh:

I dont want to drop the calories too low because i still need to maintain/increase my leg strength.
it's a difficult balance...

i'll try what chieckecnierous suggested. that kid's a genious.

I will be referring to the "Muscle is hard to lose when you're actually trying to lose it." quote.

Because you are in excellent cardio shape, your muscles are actually protected from catabolism unless you unleash a heroic effort. Your body can burn so much fat so fast that it very seldom dips into the protein store - it's too easy to satisfy the energy needs with fat. Because you did a lot of cardio it's hard for you to burn muscle.

When you bonk, how bad is it? Because if you are going to get catabolic, you have to put in that sort of work. If you stay well clear of bonking, then your blood glucose doesn't go down, and muscle catabolism isn't likely.

Running 20 miles a day is a really bad idea from the knee injury standpoint, and it's probably a little more than you would need to get catabolic. Since you are a cyclist, cycling is the obvious choice of exercise to beat yourself down with. Nice and low impact. Again, I'm just guessing since I personally am careful to rarely bonk, but just go until that bear jumps on your back, or you puke. If you do the delusional (neural) bonk, then it's probably not safe to use road cycling - use the exercise bike.

I do not envy you trying this out to see how it works. But could you make a fitness journal of your attempts? I think there should be a lot of interest here in finding out how to effectively lose muscle. Even though most people here want to avoid it, it's equally interesting to those people to know what it really takes to grind off some muscle.

remember magnus backstedt winning paris-roubaix? he's 6'3, 205 pounds.

Paris-Roubaix is more or less level isn't it? A big guy has an advantage on the flat. (Or cobbles as it happens in Paris-Roubaix).

wh0 is looking to conquer hills. The weight penalty is very real in the hills. wh0 already has an elite VO2max, so there isn't much hope to improve that. Now you can put a limit on how fast he can go up a hill by calculating the energy required to raise the weight of him and his bicycle up the height and then dividing by the VO2max to get the time in minutes. If you can't increase the VO2max by much, you have to reduce the weight.

I'd agree with rtestes on the protein part. Just drop your protein intake to below maintenance. Maybe replace it some carbs? You body will drop muscle through diet.

I think you should cut working those body parts, continue to do cardio, and restrict calories. You're at 10% bodyfat. Go for 7% and reevaluate then. In my case, i wanted to drop lots of weight for triathlon and continue to find that lbs seem to "disappear"...I mean, I can lose 3 lbs but I won't lose 2% bodyfat, as would be expected at my weight...and I won't lose strength (I continue to lift frequently for upper body), so it's possible I'm losing some muscle size without losing much in the way of strength (and this is gradual enough that I don't believe it's water, either). As I have lost overall weight and the only leg work I do is from cardio, I've found that not only does the lower weight help performance but I am far fitter. I wouldn't worry too much about growing your legs but just let the cycling do what it will to them. There are pros with pretty skinny legs, so you don't need the beefy legs of a track cyclist.

In my case, I continue to do upper body weights because I've worked on my upper body for a decade or more. It doesn't look it, but what little muscle I do have up there I've put the hours in for, so I'd rather carry an extra 10 lbs around, even if it compromises performance a bit. In my case, at 5,11" I am planning on being around 165 by the end of July, which is fairly light for my size (not as light as an elite runner or cyclist, in most cases, though) and will allow me to beat the vast majority of people while also having some beach muscle left.

In the meantime, carting your extra weight up hills will build fitness at a healthy rate.

Go for 7% and reevaluate then. In my case, i wanted to drop lots of weight for triathlon and continue to find that lbs seem to "disappear"...I mean, I can lose 3 lbs but I won't lose 2% bodyfat, as would be expected at my weight...and I won't lose strength (I continue to lift frequently for upper body), so it's possible I'm losing some muscle size without losing much in the way of strength (and this is gradual enough that I don't believe it's water, either).

How do you know you are not losing intramuscular fat? That doesn't show up on calipers.

How do you know you are not losing intramuscular fat? That doesn't show up on calipers.I only go based on what my tanita scale says (Yes, I know they are not super accurate!) and mirror results.

Probably more than anything, my scale reads me lower than I am in reality, so as I continue to lose lbs I surprise myself that there are still bits of fat remaining that could go away. I never thought I'd be able to get as light as I am now and still have some muscle and not be rail thin.

I wasn't really unceremoniously booted out- just kind of denied entry until I showed I wasn't really an instigator. I can't argue with the logic.

Trying to lose muscle has been a challenge for me. With almost any sort of weight training in my workout regimen, I've maintained my muscle size, or have increased it (loss of weight/body fat also makes them more visible).

Frankly, the biggest decrease I've seen is in the past two weeks while I've been away on business. I haven't exercised at all, and I can definitely see a difference- my weight has stayed about the same, so the only thing I can think of is a loss of muscle mass.

Maintaining strength is another matter. There's a reason pro bodybuilders can lift more than us- I believe that the size of a muscle is directly related to the amount of work it can do. So reducing muscle mass will result in strength loss.

To me, the goal doesn't really matter so long as it's achieved in a safe way. You can get skinny by vomiting up all your meals, but you'll severely damage your body that way. You can get big by taking steroids, but you'll lose your hair and crotch. Better to be reasonable about it, even if your goals differ from others.

-L

I want to somehow lose 10 lbs of muscle in my upper body

I'll have it, please, if you don't want it.

I only go based on what my tanita scale says (Yes, I know they are not super accurate!) and mirror results.

I am skeptical. My Omron is the same technology. It sort of just wanders off and guesses without much regard to what I look like. I think the Omron gets mostly an arm reading, which might be why my body composition change is lost on it. I wonder if the scales are dominated by your leg body composition. Maybe I should get one of those scales to see, but it seems like a waste of money.

I am skeptical. My Omron is the same technology. It sort of just wanders off and guesses without much regard to what I look like. I think the Omron gets mostly an arm reading, which might be why my body composition change is lost on it. I wonder if the scales are dominated by your leg body composition. Maybe I should get one of those scales to see, but it seems like a waste of money.It's kind of fun to play with. I paid $80 for it 2-3 years ago. I've never used calipers because I've never found (not that i've looked hard) a spot online selling them for super cheap with instructions on how to measure.

My scale gives about the same result as a $3k tanita scale my gym had, though that doesn't mean mine is great, just that they overspent by $2920 (though theirs also gave a printout of various water weight and things).

Best way is a pressure or dunk tank although the absolute best way would be a thorough dissection of the person.

I imagine that an MRI, with the right software and somebody who had lots of time and $20 G(?) to spend on a full scan would give a highly accurate result, too.

the absolute best way would be a thorough dissection of the person.

true, but it would be very difficult to track progress after the first evaluation.

Best way is a pressure or dunk tank although the absolute best way would be a thorough dissection of the person.

I imagine that an MRI, with the right software and somebody who had lots of time and $20 G(?) to spend on a full scan would give a highly accurate result, too.

Actually, the best way at the moment is a "DEXA" also called "DXA" scan. It is a dual-emission X-ray, meaning two different wavelengths of X-ray are used. It's a very small amount of X-ray.

It's going to get more and more popular.

Actually, the best way at the moment is a "DEXA" also called "DXA" scan. It is a dual-emission X-ray, meaning two different wavelengths of X-ray are used. It's a very small amount of X-ray.

It's going to get more and more popular.

Yep, apparently that's the gold standard.

This would be ideal...
http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/2633/leaders5iz.jpg

I want to somehow lose 10 lbs of muscle in my upper body (mainly chest and middle back) but it would be nice if i could somehow maintain all of my strength.
Possible? How?

If the above isn't possible, i still want to spot reduce my muscle mass in these areas.
Is it as simple as stop all deadlifts and chest work, while still maintaining my shoulder/trap workouts?

If you want to maximize your potential on the bike, why not just do what the pros do? Perhaps find their training regiments and create a similar plan or if their diets consists of an extreme amount of carbs, then eat carbs as they would.

This is a forum for weight lifting/health. Have you scouted out a forum for biking? Perhaps that will have all your answers...

If you want to maximize your potential on the bike, why not just do what the pros do? Perhaps find their training regiments and create a similar plan or if their diets consists of an extreme amount of carbs, then eat carbs as they would.

This is a forum for weight lifting/health. Have you scouted out a forum for biking? Perhaps that will have all your answers...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Champagne_cork.jpg/200px-Champagne_cork.jpg

Right now that's pretty much what im doing.
My diet is 65%c 15%p 20%f, and i'm riding high volume low intensity rides.

I'm going to try to do what chicanerous suggested, lifting low rep, high weight to maintain my strength, and we'll see if i can lose my size.
If i'm not losing size, i'll stop lifting FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Champagne_cork.jpg/200px-Champagne_cork.jpg

Right now that's pretty much what im doing.
My diet is 65%c 15%p 20%f, and i'm riding high volume low intensity rides.

I'm going to try to do what chicanerous suggested, lifting low rep, high weight to maintain my strength, and we'll see if i can lose my size.
If i'm not losing size, i'll stop lifting FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I suppose that would suck to stop if you really enjoy lifting, but if the main goal is Natalie Portman, then you must make sacrifices my man...:nod:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Champagne_cork.jpg/200px-Champagne_cork.jpg

Right now that's pretty much what im doing.
My diet is 65%c 15%p 20%f, and i'm riding high volume low intensity rides.

I'm going to try to do what chicanerous suggested, lifting low rep, high weight to maintain my strength, and we'll see if i can lose my size.
If i'm not losing size, i'll stop lifting FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you'll be on the right track with the parameters chic described.

High intensity low volume and a calorie deflict - watch out for your CNS thou. You might want to only do conventional or sumo deads once every 2 weeks and get lots of sleep.

BCAA's pre/peri/post workout might help with recovery.

My question is: are you an elite rider? Do you have the potential to be an elite rider? I think if your answer is yes, maybe you are asking some serious questions, but I don't think they are the right ones. Is there a better way to become a better rider without having to lose muscle? Have you exhausted all possibilities? Could you change your current training routine to improve your times? I see lots of elite bikers out there who probably weigh far more than you and they are pushing hard. I don't know the sport too well; they may very well be considering dropping their weight.

Do you frequent a semi-pro biking forum? What would they do in your situation?

It sounds to me that there must be a better answer. I assume that if you are training at a extremely high level that your body would somewhat naturally adapt the best fit for the sport.

If you are just an amateur who likes to beat the pants off people in local races, I don't think I would consider such a drastic measure.

And by the way, you will never date Natalie Portman. She's already dating me!

WHat is your goal exactly? If it's to be the best cyclist you can be, forget upper body weights entirely. Most endurance cyclists have arms befitting an orphan (any perceived arm size is merely a result of a low bodyfat). There's no need to be carting around extra mass in the upper body.

If you want to be a very good cyclist but with your shirt off look like you can still do a push up, I'd continue lifting. You are not hulking in size (meaning, you're not a massive bodybuilder), so I really think that if you continue to lift but get your bodyfat down well into the singles, you'll be not only a light cyclist but still look good. That's the approach I'm taking and it's working. I still have far more upper body muscle than if I didn't work out but I'm light enough to not get dogged out on the hills. I guess I look like a guy who clearly lifts weights but not to the extent that it's significantly sacrificing performance. I did very well on the hilly cycle split for a triathlon in may and I guarantee I could outbench any of the 8 people who beat me (and most of the 307 who didn't).

My question is: are you an elite rider? Do you have the potential to be an elite rider? I think if your answer is yes, maybe you are asking some serious questions, but I don't think they are the right ones. Is there a better way to become a better rider without having to lose muscle? Have you exhausted all possibilities? Could you change your current training routine to improve your times? I see lots of elite bikers out there who probably weigh far more than you and they are pushing hard. I don't know the sport too well; they may very well be considering dropping their weight.

Do you frequent a semi-pro biking forum? What would they do in your situation?

It sounds to me that there must be a better answer. I assume that if you are training at a extremely high level that your body would somewhat naturally adapt the best fit for the sport.

If you are just an amateur who likes to beat the pants off people in local races, I don't think I would consider such a drastic measure.

And by the way, you will never date Natalie Portman. She's already dating me!
What someone would do in my situation is stop lifting upper body all-together.
The purpose of my question is that i want to lose all of my upper body size, but somehow maintain my strength.

As for the elite rider/potential to be one: It's too early to tell due to the fact i've never been in an "official race", but i seem to be born with areobic gifts. I want to make sure I have every angle covered before i start racing next spring.

23 yrs old is much too late in the game to start cycling if you want to be elite (tour de france elite anyway), but my goal is to become a Cat-1 racer before i'm 30.

23 yrs old is much too late in the game to start cycling if you want to be elite (tour de france elite anyway), but my goal is to become a Cat-1 racer before i'm 30.

ahem... 24, old man.

ahem... 24, old man.
started biking last year

If you go on a diet for a while you'll think you're losing size, but when you go back to maintanance you will get it back, it's just depleted glycogen, and it'll be replenished.

and you won't lose much muscle at 15% protein especially if your cals are just 200k below maintanance including cycling. In fact, shove it to 12% and you'll probably only lose a trickle. When i was doing tests with the sports scientists at uni they had this guy eat nothing for 4 days, gave him some insoluble fibre and vitamins and left him to it. he lost 0.25 of a lb in muscle. the rest was fat. If you continually eat below maintanance you'll lose it but we're talking a long boring road ahead of you. You'd be better off making off with what you've got. I'm sure it's less training than your competitors that will make you slower than them.

and as somebody who once ate 30% protein on a vegetarian diet without shakes i dislike that statement. It will not make you lose muscle.