http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060416/ap_on_bi_ge/diet_accommodating_obesity

I'm sure this is nothing new for most of us, but here is the debate I'd like to spark: Does the marketing of products for overweight people enable them to remain overweight, or (as I believe the article attempts to allude to) does it help them get by day-to-day while they try to get healthy?:confused:

I don't think it enables much -- From that article, they are talking about marketing decisions in relation to grossly obese people (300+ pounds) that affect but a tiny percentage of the population. I have no problem whatsoever with them having their own beach parties, or sturdier chairs etc. -- I mean, I doubt that the absence of these things will suddenly spark the idea that they need to lose weight ....so i say let them do what they want to enjoy life. Trust me, day to day life for them is not going to be easy either way. Of course, it is a given that the best alternative is for them to lose weight and get healthy, but people are free to do what they want ... and if they decide not to choose that path (for whatever reason), then it is not my place to stand in their way.

Does the marketing of products for overweight people enable them to remain overweight, or (as I believe the article attempts to allude to) does it help them get by day-to-day while they try to get healthy?:confused: No.

With the exception of weight loss gimicks/pills, I've not seen any products whose target market is obese people.

To them, being overweight is not a choice they made. Removing chairs that accomodate heavier people won't suddenly make them lose weight. We need to start looking at improving nutritional/fitness education and changing portion sizes back to how they were 50 years ago.

-Mike

From that article, they are talking about marketing decisions in relation to grossly obese people (300+ pounds) that affect but a tiny percentage of the population.

Now, now I am 300 lbs and I am obese but I wouldn't call myself grossly obese. Atleast not in the sense of needing special products to support my weight. I think unfortunatly a large portion of american males are 300+ pounds. Now if you take it up a notch to 400+ pounds you're looking at a smaller percentage of the population and approaching the area of needing/wanting some specialized products to make life more comfortable.

-- Jeremy

i don't know what i would do without my oversized underwear (http://www.greatbigstuff.com/underwear.html)

Let's address another issue here...

"You should not be embarrassed by how big you are," said William Fabrey, whose online business "Amplestuff" offers larger versions of everyday things from umbrellas to footstools.
Do you agree with this assessment, or should overweight people be embarrassed? Is embarrassment a motivating factor or a discouraging factor?

Let's address another issue here...


Do you agree with this assessment, or should overweight people be embarrassed? Is embarrassment a motivating factor or a discouraging factor? I don't understand what you are getting at. Does it matter if they are embarrassed or discouraged? I don't think society needs to shun fat people and make them wear a giant "F" on their shirts either.

There is no one size fits all answer. Some may say "Well damn. I can't fit in this chair. Oh how embarrassing. I'm not going to live like this anymore!" and make a change. Others (most?) will probably just feel like crap, become depressed and eat some more because they don't understand they have the power to change.

-Mike

Do you agree with this assessment, or should overweight people be embarrassed? Is embarrassment a motivating factor or a discouraging factor?

I can't say what motivates others, but I can say that I am not particularly embaressed or motivated by how I look. I wish my cloths fit me better and that I felt more comfortable in my cloths, but for the most part I don't care what I look like. What motivates me is my health and the fact that I am an active person on the inside, but a fat person on the outside.

That's just me... I don't think the answer to the problem is making being fat more acceptable, but I also don't like to see people put down for the way they look. So I am not sure what the answer is... I honesly think it's a national health epidemic that the government should address, but never will because too much money comes from people that make junk food. So the government will never come out and say drinking soda is bad or eating fast food 10 times a week isn't a good diet. Of course we can't rely on the government to fix our problems, but I think the rising costs of health care are being fueled by illness that is directly related to being overweight. I don't think enough doctors are perscribing weightloss as opposed to handing out pills to fix the problems caused by being fat.

So maybe a more hardline stance needs to be taken... our culture is becoming (or has become) solidified in bad behaviors (snacking, over eating, sweets, watching TV, playing videogames, etc)

-- Jeremy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060416/ap_on_bi_ge/diet_accommodating_obesity

I'm sure this is nothing new for most of us, but here is the debate I'd like to spark: Does the marketing of products for overweight people enable them to remain overweight, or (as I believe the article attempts to allude to) does it help them get by day-to-day while they try to get healthy?:confused:If a fatty couldn't be bothered to get healthy before, they will have even less motivation if the world starts to cater to their indolence."You should not be embarrassed by how big you are," said William Fabrey, whose online business "Amplestuff" offers larger versions of everyday things from umbrellas to footstools. "You can't just yell at someone and tell them to lose weight. You're already dealing with people who think they have no worth."I think not being embarrassed by it is part of the problem it's "accepted" in the west. Those who pretend it's not, and use magazines as an example of society's disapproval, ignore the fact that with so many overweight people around there is a vast acceptance of obesity and overeating and overindulgence and inactivity. The second in that quote is accurate, though; if a person is so fat that their self-esteem is the absolute pits, they can lack the confidence required to take a meaningful step to correcting their condition.We need to start looking at improving nutritional/fitness education and changing portion sizes back to how they were 50 years ago.Impossible, unfortunately. We can't uninvent the car or uninvent video games or uninvent incredibly awesome-tasting junk food that can be made for almost nothing. There will be no going back to kids playing outside until dusk and complaining when they have to go in and eating peanut butter sandwiches at lunch instead of pizza. On a grand scale, I personally believe that we're only going to see a real cure of overweight and obesity when some drug company comes up with a miracle pill. People do not want to change their behavior, so if a pill can cure their fatness, that's what's going to do it. On a small scale, some of us buck the trend to overeating laziness but for society as a whole i cannot envision a qualitative and meaningful change in how it looks at overweightedness.Now, now I am 300 lbs and I am obese but I wouldn't call myself grossly obese. Atleast not in the sense of needing special products to support my weight.Medically speaking, you may be. I'm not quite sure, but definitely some can hold that weight better than others. a 5,2 woman weighing 300 is hopeless at moving around but a guy on my street weighs 298 and he's 6 something and he's able to go for walks and coach basketball and wouldn't dream of needing anything special for his weight.

Does the marketing of products for overweight people enable them to remain overweight, or (as I believe the article attempts to allude to) does it help them get by day-to-day while they try to get healthy?
My gut reaction is yes - if these items are provided, those with the self-induced affliction will have even less motivation to change, if that's at all possible.

The flip side of the coin is that these people do exist and these niche market items can help them exist with some modicum of dignity. If items for convenience and care products went away, obese people would still be there.

Education is the key, yet like the rest of the education system, it is woefully inadequate. The motivation to change the educational system has yet to present itself.

"People cannot just stop being fat." - Kelly Bliss

No, they can't "stop being fat" like you would stop a car. But people can change their bodies to become leaner given a little time and some work. The above statement comes from the article - from a "plus-size fitness and lifestyle coach". This is ignorance coming from the very industry that is supposed to be equipped with the knowledge to help the obese begin to change. Ms. Bliss goes on to say that the obese should exercise as best they can. I can't agree with this, either. The idea that "something is better than nothing" doesn't apply here - we're talking about lives hanging in the balance. If a person's body fat is over 30%, that person is well on his/her way to any number of diseases that have been directly linked to abdominal fat storage and excessive body weight. They're many times more likely to suffer problems like hypertension, diabetes, heart disease, respiratory problems, and all sorts of cancers. Something is better than nothing? Not so in this case.

The marketplace won't change because there's no demand for it. All of us who've performed, maintained, or are in the process of a body transformation know how hard it can be to find healthy items and products. We go to specialty markets to find what we need. We order online and have items shipped to us because it's usually cost-prohibitive, if not impossible to find them in our localities. We pay premiums for healthy, lean meats at the store (I usually have to buzz the butcher and request it!). We spend more money because it costs a lot to be healthy! Problem is, there aren't enough of us to justify catering more widely to the market. We're an outlier. We're statistically (and obviously financially) insignificant to the mainstream market. You don't see commercials on TV for flaxseed oil or creatine - you only see "miracle pills" and other snake oil items on infomercial TV.

I really have a hard time leaning either way on the issue. We need specialty items to care for the obese, as there certainly are enough of them - I believe the article stated that up to 70% of American males are carrying too much body weight - I find that number insane yet believable.

I probably lean more towards my original statement, because the more available these items are, the more apt I think people will be to remain, or even increase their plight because they feel more enabled. By providing these services, they'll feel more societal acceptance of their condition.

I have a feeling the makers of those wide caskets are going to be busy and affluent people in the years to come.

-R

I really have a hard time leaning either way on the issue. We need specialty items to care for the obese, as there certainly are enough of them - I believe the article stated that up to 70% of American males are carrying too much body weight - I find that number insane yet believable.


Great post Bluestreak (as always!)...

The above sentiment is why I made this thread.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Does it matter if they are embarrassed or discouraged? I don't think society needs to shun fat people and make them wear a giant "F" on their shirts either.
Michael, I'm not "getting at" anything. I'm simply posing some complex questions for debate. No more, no less. Like Bluestreak, I am back-and-forth onthis issue and I find it interesting to think about...

Michael, I'm not "getting at" anything. I'm simply posing some complex questions for debate. No more, no less. Like Bluestreak, I am back-and-forth onthis issue and I find it interesting to think about... Okay. I thought maybe you were "getting at" the idea we shouldn't produce products designed for overweight people so that they can feel "bad" about how fat they are.

Medical costs aside, if someone's fat and happy, let them be fat and happy. It's not our place to tell others they ought to feel embarrassed for being overweight.

-Mike

Now, now I am 300 lbs and I am obese but I wouldn't call myself grossly obese.

Unless you are over six feet tall, you are indeed clinically and morbidly (or "grossly") obese at 300lbs. Calculator from this website: http://www.obesityfocused.com/about/definition-of-obesity.php along with the following definition:

Obesity Versus Morbid Obesity
A person with a body mass index exceeding 30 is considered obese, and someone with a BMI of 40 or more has morbid obesity. Morbid obesity refers to a dangerous condition in which the sufferer is at risk of physical disability and a severely impaired quality of life.

Unless you are over six feet tall, you are indeed clinically and morbidly (or "grossly") obese at 300lbs. Calculator from this website: http://www.obesityfocused.com/about/definition-of-obesity.php along with the following definition:

Obesity Versus Morbid Obesity
A person with a body mass index exceeding 30 is considered obese, and someone with a BMI of 40 or more has morbid obesity. Morbid obesity refers to a dangerous condition in which the sufferer is at risk of physical disability and a severely impaired quality of life.

You are right. When I said that I was thinking of the hundreds of people I see everyday that are obviously heavier than myself. I am definately on the cusp of morbid obesiety. Of course it says at 180 lbs I would be almost in the over weight catagory. I was 180 in high school I was no where near over weight. Not to say that it's wrong about me being too fat, but if I got down to 180 right now and kept most of my muscle.. I'd be cut.

-- Jeremy

Okay. I thought maybe you were "getting at" the idea we shouldn't produce products designed for overweight people so that they can feel "bad" about how fat they are.

Medical costs aside, if someone's fat and happy, let them be fat and happy. It's not our place to tell others they ought to feel embarrassed for being overweight.

-Mike
No, I mean if there is a niche of people who need to buy these products that's fine with me, but like Roger I wonder what impact this has on the staying-power of obesity acceptance...

Have you ever met anyone that is truly fat and happy? B.I.G. might be the only one that comes to my mind...maybe John Goodman?

When I said that I was thinking of the hundreds of people I see everyday that are obviously heavier than myself.

Which is entirely the point of this article:

http://pewresearch.org/assets/social/pdf/Obesity.pdf

You are right. When I said that I was thinking of the hundreds of people I see everyday that are obviously heavier than myself. I am definately on the cusp of morbid obesiety. Of course it says at 180 lbs I would be almost in the over weight catagory. I was 180 in high school I was no where near over weight. Not to say that it's wrong about me being too fat, but if I got down to 180 right now and kept most of my muscle.. I'd be cut.

-- JeremyProbably, but if you actually got down to 180 you'd likely lose significant muscle on the way. BMI is not accurate for people who've above average muscle but I think many of us are surprised how light we can get and _not_ look like the rail we assume we'll look like once we get to fairly low weights.

For a person to be considered overweight by the BMI scale and be ripped at the same time, they'll need an awful lot of muscle. I didn't think I'd be able to get under 25 and still have muscle, but I'm actually there now at about 24.3 and not the skinny rail I thought I might be.

Have you ever met anyone that is truly fat and happy? B.I.G. might be the only one that comes to my mind...maybe John Goodman? I'm sure there are lots of people. I can use myself as an example. When I was overweight, I was happy with my life. I was also happy when I decided I wanted to get in better shape.

I certainly don't believe that all overweight people (with the exception of B.I.G and John Goodman as you listed) are living unhappy lives. That's what, 70+% Americans? For many people, being fit doesn't rank all that high on the happiness scale.

-Mike

I'm sure there are lots of people. I can use myself as an example. When I was overweight, I was happy with my life. I was also happy when I decided I wanted to get in better shape.

I certainly don't believe that all overweight people (with the exception of B.I.G and John Goodman as you listed) are living unhappy lives. That's what, 70+% Americans? For many people, being fit doesn't rank all that high on the happiness scale.

-Mike
I guess I was considering the morbidly obese person who's family has to buy a triple-XL coffin for them rather than someone who is simply overweight..I'm overweight and I'm relatively happy..but how many 400lbs-ers are happy?

Impossible, unfortunately. We can't uninvent the car or uninvent video games or uninvent incredibly awesome-tasting junk food that can be made for almost nothing. There will be no going back to kids playing outside until dusk and complaining when they have to go in and eating peanut butter sandwiches at lunch instead of pizza. On a grand scale, I personally believe that we're only going to see a real cure of overweight and obesity when some drug company comes up with a miracle pill. People do not want to change their behavior, so if a pill can cure their fatness, that's what's going to do it. On a small scale, some of us buck the trend to overeating laziness but for society as a whole i cannot envision a qualitative and meaningful change in how it looks at overweightedness.
We can't uninvent video games, but we can decide whether to let our children use them. I could certainly afford to have a Playstation or whatever the heck the latest gaming system is, but I don't imagine it providing any benefit to my kids, so I refuse to buy one. My kids do indeed play outside until dusk, and they eat peanut butter sandwiches as often as pizza. When they are hungry between regular meals, they are offered fruits, vegetables and yogurts only. I realize I don't constitute a majority, but there are at least a few people like me out there. Yes indeed, I am raising my kids to be outliers. And I fully expect them to raise their kids the same way.

I find that there are becoming a few new products available that suit me. Boxed cereal companies are adding whole grains and reducing sugar levels. Christie has introduced a line of 100 calorie snack bags of cookies or crackers as a form of portion control. And Cadbury has released 100 calorie chocolate bars which are selling quite well at gas stations and grocery store checkout lines. Tofu, TVP and a wide variety of exotic fruits and vegetables are available at my local grocery store, and I have a choice of about half a dozen shops within a ten minute drive where I can purchase protein powders and other dietary supplements if I choose.

Keep in mind that "society as a whole" is not some wild abstract concept. It is a larger collection of people just like me and you. If I can choose to be healthier, and you can, and my kids can, and my husband can, and my friends can, and my doctor can, then the potential is there for the minority to shift into a majority of people who are at a healthy weight.

Back to the original topic, I'm not too sure. One of my friends in high school was always quite overweight, and she related to me once this story about how when they go to the zoo, they rent a wheelchair and each take turns getting pushed in it. It sounded cool to me at the time, but now it seems a little pathetic. The only disability any of the members in her family had was shortness of breath. Other than their immediate comfort level, the walk around the zoo would have benefitted them more than the wheelchair rental. On the other hand, if one of them needed to take a rest for a bit and couldn't find a bench large or strong enough to support them, that's just not right.

So, no, I don't like the idea of enabling overweight people to remain overweight. But I'm not sure if I agree that building sturdier deck chairs or offering hotel rooms with larger beds fits into this category.

I guess I was considering the morbidly obese person who's family has to buy a triple-XL coffin for them rather than someone who is simply overweight..I'm overweight and I'm relatively happy..but how many 400lbs-ers are happy?

this guy looks happy.

but how many 400lbs-ers are happy? I don't know. 14?

I'd guess it is more than you'd think though.

-Mike

While we are on this topic... Something that always makes me feel bad is when I see an overweight person trying to fit into a roller coaster seat with everybody staring at them. After several unsuccessfull attempts at strapping themselves in, they have to get up and leave without riding. If that doesn't prompt them to lose weight, no amount of embarrassment will.

I wonder if we will start to see roller coasters accomodating larger people?

-Mike

guava I just wanted to give you a big :tu: for the way you are raising your kids. I grew up on soda, chips, and video games. I wish I would have been raised with more encouragement towards healthier foods and actvities.

If my wife and I ever have children I hope to feed them good food and make sure they stay active. Hopefully they won't go down the same road as their mom and dad.

-- Jeremy

I wonder if we will start to see roller coasters accomodating larger people?

I know you're not entirely serious here, but I think this begs the question: Does embarrassment create a desire to change?

I'm sure the same situation occurs with movie theater seats...

I always get a little bit uncomfortable with threads like these -- mainly because I often get the sense that these are often little more than self-righteous finger pointing and subtle bigotry disguised as social commentary. We all have our own individual flaws, but luckily for many of us, we don't wear them on our exterior the way many fat people do -- and as a result, we can hide our flaws from the judgmental views of our peers, and pretend they don't exist ... a luxury that isn't afforded to fat people. Despite having personal weaknesses and flaws (just like the rest of us), they deserve to live their lives with some measure of dignity just like the rest of us. If going to a beach party reserved for fat people makes them feel comfortable and not self-conscious for once in their lives, then more power to them! Do I think it "enables" them? Not in the least. As I mentioned before, fat people can't hide their flaws like many of us, and they are constantly subjected to all sorts of ignorant comments -- like many in this very thread (i.e. suggesting they are "indolent" and "lazy"...when in reality, I know many fat people who would work circles around 99% of you). No matter what accomodations you make for them, their lives are not easy....so, deliberately making things difficult for them and depriving them of personal dignity is not going to motivate them to pursue a life of fitness. I don't worry about what fat people do -- I let them live their lives and do what they can to be happy.

That said, I think we need to educate people on healthy eating habits, and provide the knowledge and training on how to do so -- but I don't think it is productive to complain about heavy people building sturdier chairs or having their own get-togethers.

I don't know. 14?

I'd guess it is more than you'd think though.

I dunno, Mike.

I have trouble believing that there is such a thing as a "happy fat person"; while I'm sure you could find the odd example, it's just not conducive to truly being happy. Even that odd example is probably happy out of ignorance - would that these people had to truly face the physiological damage they do to their bodies, I think they might have a better understanding of the true danger they live with.

And obesity leaves too many issues for the mind to wander, and regardless of how much a person tells me these things don't weigh on the mind, it has to. What about things like the plethora of health concerns obesity creates for a person? The public's reaction to grotesque obesity? The ability to fit into places/seats/etc? These are probably only a few concerns they're going to spend their entire lives considering before they go out to do anything - all for food - and what obese people eat is hardly considered food. (Read up on Patrick Deuel and his "diet" prior to losing 500-something pounds - you won't stray from your diet for a long time) And if there were that many happy fat people, I think the public would be less enamoured with the "gimmick" fitness industry that promises impossible results with little to no input. The original article says it all - people spend $33 billion looking for it. That's not the profile of happiness; it's a silent cry from a desperate nation. Worse, this nation of people has been duped into actually believing that their plight is insurmountable; that genetics dictates their shape. That they can't lose weight without a lifetime of depravation and sacrifice. Corporate America and the profit margin they reap from our obesity is actually so strong that people don't believe physiological fact - physical education and proper nutrition are unknown to all but a very, very scant few such as those who frequent this website. We live in a society that has been brainwashed into killing themselves with food.

A little thinking about the subject says to me... that there are a lot of unhappy fat people out there - and the ones who claim they're happy - they're ignorant of the lie they live and the harm they do to themselves.

-R

While we are on this topic... Something that always makes me feel bad is when I see an overweight person trying to fit into a roller coaster seat with everybody staring at them. After several unsuccessfull attempts at strapping themselves in, they have to get up and leave without riding. If that doesn't prompt them to lose weight, no amount of embarrassment will.

I wonder if we will start to see roller coasters accomodating larger people?

-Mike

There is at least one person on this board who started their transformation as a result of not fitting into a roller coaster seat...

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11227&highlight=teebie

And the final result...

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=21232&highlight=teebie

There is at least one person on this board who started their transformation as a result of not fitting into a roller coaster seat...

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11227&highlight=teebie

And the final result...

http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=21232&highlight=teebie

Her story is probably one of my favorites on the site -- Too bad she doesn't post much anymore. In addition to having a great story ... she really seems like a great human being.

There is at least one person on this board who started their transformation as a result of not fitting into a roller coaster seat... I remember her. I actually didn't even click your link, but I think I know exactly who you're talking about.

I wonder how often that happens though. Is her experience the norm or the exception?

-Mike

I have trouble believing that there is such a thing as a "happy fat person"; while I'm sure you could find the odd example, it's just not conducive to truly being happy. I don't think it's all that odd, but I am just guessing. I'm not saying they are happy with their weight, but rather with their life in a general sense. As long as we are still talking about morbidly obese people, you may very well be right. We may also have a different definition of happy in mind, too.

-Mike

Her story is probably one of my favorites on the site -- Too bad she doesn't post much anymore. In addition to having a great story ... she really seems like a great human being.
She stopped posting shortly after the reply I made in her journal (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11891). I didn't mean to scare her away, and did not mean to imply that she was making back choices, but I wanted her to be aware. :cry:

For someone like that, you wish you could just give them a little more trust in themselves.:(

this guy looks happy.

Max. :cry:

I dont think many people dwell on being fat as much as we do. We are all here for a reason and at least somewhat like minded.

Are they unhappy because they are fat or fat because they are unhappy? Are thin people happy because they are thin or are they thin because they are happy? Are you happy? Yes, great. No, why not? Its not because you are fat or thin. Its deeper than that. This all seems sort of silly to me.

Are thin people happy because they are thin or are they thin because they are happy? I was fat because I was happy. In the first couple years of when I met my wife I gained 50 lbs. I got too comfortable.

-Mike

I was fat because I was happy. In the first couple years of when I met my wife I gained 50 lbs. I got too comfortable.

-Mike

It happens. I did the same thing. Wasnt the happy part that got me. I was not happy at the time. I definetly was comfortable though. I wasnt actively look anymore so I just let myself go.

I always get a little bit uncomfortable with threads like these -- mainly because I often get the sense that these are often little more than self-righteous finger pointing and subtle bigotry disguised as social commentary.
You can label me "self-righteous," and that's fine..but at the end of the day are self-righteous and *right* mutually exclusive? I'm working hard to get myself fit and then I see people, like Bluestreak pointed out, who are fitness professionals that preach the something-is-better-than-nothing/big-is-beautiful (meaning that you should stay as fat as you want to and be proud of it)...I'm not inherently better than someone who is morbidly obese, nor do I think that they are inherently lazy...I do, however, draw a distinction between those who seek to better their health and those that couldn't care less about their own physical well-being (and in many cases this includes thier children as well).

You used the word "bigotry" meaning that we are intolerant. Should I always be tolerant of those who do the wrong thing? This isn't like being intolerant of those who can't help themselves...

I think that these are very very complex questions, but as a group of those dedicated to fitness, I often find the social commentary on obesity here to be refreshing. Specifically, I find Guava and Bluestreak's comments on these subjects to be against-the-popular grain in a positive direction. Many of us here experience issues with those who are obese on a day-to-day basis. Bluestreak gets upset with the obese people in his office who mess with the air conditioner. Guava doesn't like the free-McDonalds coupons given out to reward her children. As a fitness community, certainly our social commentaries on this subject can come across as "self-righteous" but since clearly none of us believe that we are inherently better, is this percieved self-righteousness in any way equivalent to bigotry? I think not.

I apologize to those who found this discussion in poor taste.

I think one of the things about discussions like this is that they tend to be black and white... either you are anti-"fat" or pro-"fat". Althought I think people should get up off their asses and do something (myself included). I also don't want to see people treated poorly because they are fat, but I also wonder if by not drawing a line in the sand that society is encouraging the poor behavior.

So I color myself gray on the subject. I'd like to see people lose weight for their health, but I am perplexed on how you get people to do that. I guess we can only worry about ourselves and only worry about what motivates us.

I am glad I found JSF and I hope to transform myself like many of you have. I don't think I will ever judge someone for being fat because I know it's a very easy trap to fall in and it's very hard to pull yourself out. I, even now, often find myself feeling concerned for people I see because I know if their health isn't poor it will eventually become poor and it's all over something that is completely controllable.

-- Jeremy

Should I always be tolerant of those who do the wrong thing? This isn't like being intolerant of those who can't help themselves.
Well, there's the problem. There's a difference between reality and perception. Just because an activity is wrong for you doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

Yes, you should be tolerant of people who are doing the best that they are capable of doing or desire to be doing. And you should encourage them also to do greater things.

Keep in mind that "society as a whole" is not some wild abstract concept. It is a larger collection of people just like me and you. If I can choose to be healthier, and you can, and my kids can, and my husband can, and my friends can, and my doctor can, then the potential is there for the minority to shift into a majority of people who are at a healthy weight.I am a bit elitist, but this problem is well documented and known about by most people. It's going to take a significant shift in our culture for a change. It's ubiquitious across the entire West. Our culture has utterly failed at keeping people's weight in check, so a few manage on their own but the majority fail. Unless our culture changes markedly, the actions of the majority will not change markedly, which is why I think for a marked weight loss, without a big cultural change, we need a miracle cure.

Well, there's the problem. There's a difference between reality and perception. Just because an activity is wrong for you doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

Yes, you should be tolerant of people who are doing the best that they are capable of doing or desire to be doing. And you should encourage them also to do greater things.
I agree entirely, but do you really think that the majority of people really are doing the best that they are capable of doing?

I encourage everyone on this board, because I associate posters of this board to be working toward bettering their lives in some way or another...but, as has been stated, we are in the vast minority. Should I always be tolerant of someone who clearly isn't making any effort toward self-improvement?

I'm not refering to those who are making an effort..Guava wrote "just because an activity is wrong for you..." But wait...what if someone isn't doing *any* activity? My peers chastize me for always eating at home when they go out to eat..in fact, I think this has harmed my social life..but I care more about my *life* than my *social* life...for making a healthy decision *I* am the one that is an outcast? Should I be tolerant of those who perpetually keep people like you and me in this position? I think there comes a time when you have to say "Hey, it's just not cool to be fat and not care."

I'm not trying to say that I'm inherently better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean I can't make better *decisions* than other people. I don't think it is right to make fun of someone because they are fat, but I also don't think that it is right to encourage that behavior.

The interesting thing about the article I posted in this thread is that, like Jeremya and Bluestreak mentioned, it is somewhat of a grey interpretation in an all too often black-or-white subject.

I agree with Bluestreak's interpretation.
We're an outlier. We're statistically (and obviously financially) insignificant to the mainstream market. You don't see commercials on TV for flaxseed oil or creatine - you only see "miracle pills" and other snake oil items on infomercial TV.

Does that make us inherently better or self-righteous? No, not at all. I don't run around on my high-horse trying to subjugate people who are morbidly obese. I never have before, and I never will. It's simply impolite. ...but that doesn't mean that I should support someone who buys into the quick-fix pill when I'm working hard day-in and day-out ...I don't think I have to be "tolerant" of the quick-fix behavior and pat them on the back and say "Nice try, man. Maybe the next miracle-pill will work for you..."

These are certainly complex issues. I think we can all attest to that...but that is also why they are fascinating points for discussion.

She stopped posting shortly after the reply I made in her journal (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11891). I didn't mean to scare her away, and did not mean to imply that she was making back choices, but I wanted her to be aware. :cry:

For someone like that, you wish you could just give them a little more trust in themselves.:(

Guava -- You were just looking out for her, you were doing a good thing by posting those links. I don't think that is why she stopped posting -- she's taken long breaks before, so she may be back.

You used the word "bigotry" meaning that we are intolerant. Should I always be tolerant of those who do the wrong thing?

The problem is that you can justify any intolerance with this logic. I could suggest that certain sexual practices are the "wrong thing" as judged from a particular standpoint. Does that then justify intolerance? You have to recognize that what may be wrong from your perspective, may not be from somebody else's.

I do, however, draw a distinction between those who seek to better their health and those that couldn't care less about their own physical well-being

Well Ok, but recognize that is your own personal value, and that not everyone shares that value. People tend to be egocentric by nature, which is why fitness buffs on a fitness-oriented site, tend to draw distinctions (and judge other people) on the basis of how physically fit they are. In academia, I know plenty of intellectual snobs who could care less about physical fitness, but rather, they lament the poor state of affairs regarding the average person's education, intelligence, or general knowledge. We all tend to look at our own greatest character strength, value, or ability, and judge everybody else from that perspective ... which I don't think is particularly fair.

I'm not trying to say that I'm inherently better than anyone else, but that doesn't mean I can't make better *decisions* than other people.

Since when did decisions about diet and fitness become the defining feature of one's life? You might make better decisions in one very narrow aspect of your life, but I don't think that is an indication that you generally make better decisions than other people -- not by a long shot.

As a fitness community, certainly our social commentaries on this subject can come across as "self-righteous" but since clearly none of us believe that we are inherently better

To the contrary -- I get the very real sense that many of you DO think you are somehow better. Look at all the sweeping generalizations about fat people in this very thread! Lemme see here, they are "indolent", "lazy", "low-self esteem", "unhappy" etc.....very broad assertions are being made here based on very little.

Now, I do agree, that we need to encourage people to improve their nutrition, and teach their children good eating and exercise habits -- I'm with you on that issue -- But to suggest that we don't have to be tolerant of people who are overweight, or that it is somehow objectionable for them to have their own get-togethers is something I just can't agree with.

The problem is that you can justify any intolerance with this logic. I could suggest that certain sexual practices are the "wrong thing" as judged from a particular standpoint. Does that then justify intolerance? You have to recognize that what may be wrong from your perspective, may not be from somebody else's.



Well Ok, but recognize that is your own personal value, and that not everyone shares that value. People tend to be egocentric by nature, which is why fitness buffs on a fitness-oriented site, tend to draw distinctions (and judge other people) on the basis of how physically fit they are. In academia, I know plenty of intellectual snobs who could care less about physical fitness, but rather, they lament the poor state of affairs regarding the average person's education, intelligence, or general knowledge. We all tend to look at our own greatest character strength, value, or ability, and judge everybody else from that perspective ... which I don't think is particularly fair.



Since when did decisions about diet and fitness become the defining feature of one's life? You might make better decisions in one very narrow aspect of your life, but I don't think that is an indication that you generally make better decisions than other people -- not by a long shot.



To the contrary -- I get the very real sense that many of you DO think you are somehow better. Look at all the sweeping generalizations about fat people in this very thread! Lemme see here, they are "indolent", "lazy", "low-self esteem", "unhappy" etc.....very broad assertions are being made here based on very little.

Now, I do agree, that we need to encourage people to improve their nutrition, and teach their children good eating and exercise habits -- I'm with you on that issue -- But to suggest that we don't have to be tolerant of people who are overweight, or that it is somehow objectionable for them to have their own get-togethers is something I just can't agree with. :tu: :claplow:

-Mike

To the contrary -- I get the very real sense that many of you DO think you are somehow better. Look at all the sweeping generalizations about fat people in this very thread! Lemme see here, they are "indolent", "lazy", "low-self esteem", "unhappy" etc.....very broad assertions are being made here based on very little.
We're having a discussion which solicits opinions. Opinions are not fact and are usually based on empirical evidence observed over time by an individual. As I bear in mind that you say we're making sweeping generalizations, please also bear in mind that I speak from what I see and hear around me every day. And every day, I see people trapped in bodies they obviously don't enjoy living in - yet insanely and repeatedly, I observe these people engaging in behaviors that keep them firmly entrenched in the miserty they live with.

I know I was completely unhappy with thirty-something percent body fat - that's why I say what I did. I had a ton of prescriptions. Asthma, allergies, acid reflux, irritable bowel syndrome, planar fascitis, bad knees, miscellaneous creaky joints, and to top it all off, a 38" waist (at 66" tall, that's ridiculous). I felt trapped in my own body. I felt as though genetics had me where I was and I was doomed to be fat for a lifetime. I felt as though weight loss meant deprivation. I was willing to live a truncated lifetime as a fat person rather than suffer that deprivation. I was a victim, as I believe many overweight people are, of the severe lack of fitness education and of corporate America's greed. They want us to remain ignorant and consume. Educated, healthy individuals are smarter consumers who spend money more wisely - and therefore we spend less money on empty nutrition. So why would the business world care about our health as long as we're ignorant and spending money on their products that slowly bring about our demise?

They don't care. That's why we have an epidemic of overweight individuals. Media outlets of all kinds routinely tell us that we're dying of malnutrition, but we ignore those warnings. Curing the epidemic would be bad for business, so not only do corporations ignore us, but the elected officials they subsidize ignore us as well. Discovering individuality and developing our cognitive skills now becomes critical. If our governments and our corporations won't defend us, we have to defend ourselves. We have to educate ourselves - which is what this web board is all about.

Education. Improvement. Inspiration. Perserverance. Consistency. Dedication. We don't toss these words around lightly. We mean them. I have no intentions of apologizing for telling someone who's overweight to get off their ass and do something about it - because, quite frankly, it's what I did and it's what that/those person(s) need to do as well. There's no other way to change. Change is painful. Growing, learning, and achieving can be rewarding, but it's never easy. And the wake up call won't necessarily be timid or pleasant. Think about it - sixty-plus percent of the male population is overweight in the United States. Is that not irrefutable evidence that we need a wakeup call - and that it doesn't necessarily need to be polite - so that the message is finally heard?

If believing in these things and believing in myself lead me to seem aloof or otherwise elitist, so be it.

-R

I kinda feel like everytime I see this conversation on these forums it's the same thing over and over.. there is one group that believes all fat people are simply just lazy and there is another group that is more sympathetic. One of these days we all just need to agree to disagree and put the topic to rest.

-- Jeremy

We're having a discussion which solicits opinions. Opinions are not fact and are usually based on empirical evidence observed over time by an individual. As I bear in mind that you say we're making sweeping generalizations, please also bear in mind that I speak from what I see and hear around me every day.

Well -- you mention that making those generalizations is the result of empiricaal evidence observed over time, yet I would contend that none of us are simply passive sponges of information that turn out objectively analyzed output. Our "analyses" are always colored by our own experiences and our own biases -- and we selectively attend to those things which are particularly salient to us. I have never been in the position of being miserable because of my weight -- I have been as high as 25% body fat at points in my life, but it didn't really affect me in any negative way, so I am not predisposed to selectively "observe" those qualities in others. To the contrary, the people I've had the pleasure of working with in the past several years are quite literally the top handful of people in the world in their given area of specialization. Many of them are overweight and do not suffer from the maladies that many of you are suggesting (i.e. laziness, low-self esteem, unhappiness, etc.). I am sure that many in the general population do, but you should also understand that there are plenty of people who are in that 69% you mentioned who do not.

We mean them. I have no intentions of apologizing for telling someone who's overweight to get off their ass and do something about it - because, quite frankly, it's what I did and it's what that/those person(s) need to do as well.

Well, then don't apologize -- but, if you are under the impression that telling someone to "get off their ass and do something about [their weight]" is going to net you anything other than a punch in the mouth, then you are seriously mistaken. I am sure they have heard that before -- the lightbulb isn't going to suddenly go off just because it is now coming from you. Secondly, what that person "needs" is not your (or anybody else's) decision to make. If that person wants to make a change, it must come from within -- and, if the person chooses to do nothing about it, then so be it. People are free to make their own life decisions -- even if those decisions are not particularly healthy ones or the ones you might make.

I think we are in agreement however, that those who WANT to lose the fat, should be given the tools necessary to do so -- and that relying on quick fixes and media-hype is not the way to do it.


If believing in these things and believing in myself lead me to seem aloof or otherwise elitist, so be it.

Well -- now you are twisting what I said just a little bit. I never claimed that believing in things like "Education. Improvement. Inspiration. Perserverance. Consistency. Dedication" made you (or anybody else) elitest. What I did say is that making a series of broad generalizations about an individual based solely on the number of the scale is inappropriate, and a little bit bigoted.

Interesting discussion, many good points on both sides of the issue.

Personally I was miserable when I was overweight, but at the same time I would have thought it very rude of someone (even a close friend or family member) to tell me what I should or should not do to become happy. That choice has to come from within.

As this site started to become bigger than me and my personal transformation, I decided that I wanted to provide a place in which those who had the desire to change would be nurtured with inspiration and information. I would never presume to tell someone that health and fitness will change their life, but I will tell those who come here or ask me that those two things changed mine. :)

Thanks for keeping this discussion civil. :tucool:

Interesting discussion, many good points on both sides of the issue.

Personally I was miserable when I was overweight, but at the same time I would have thought it very rude of someone (even a close friend or family member) to tell me what I should or should not do to become happy. That choice has to come from within.

As this site started to become bigger than me and my personal transformation, I decided that I wanted to provide a place in which those who had the desire to change would be nurtured with inspiration and information. I would never presume to tell someone that health and fitness will change their life, but I will tell those who come here or ask me that those two things changed mine. :)

Thanks for keeping this discussion civil. :tucool:

Yep, its a great discussion - one of the first times i read something that wasn't about weight training or good eating habits. :)

I agree with John it has to come within like most everything in life.

I'm glad many of you see this as a great discussion...my point was to avoid the love v hate dichotomy and instead discuss the realm of the grey.

JoeSchmo, I think you are right on many points, but I also follow Bluestreak's argument in that I think that to some degree being "elite" on this matter isn't such a bad thing....your'e right in saying that anyone can use the "If I'm right then being intolerant is ok" arguement, but that doesn't, by virture, negate it from being acceptable.

There are plenty of people who are really really fat and not lazy or indolent or anything else mentioned...does that make it ok? Is it ever ok that for someone to really not care about thier own health?

That's a tough question...it begs the question on smoking too...is it ok to smoke? Should I be tolerant of those that want to smoke next to me on the street, in a restaurant, or in a bar simply because they have the right to kill themselves via cigarettes? Just because they don't care about thier own health, should I just be like "Cool man, kill yourself if thats what you wanna do!"

Personally, I don't think so...it's not that I would call smokers lazy/indolent/ppl of low self-esteem because they dont' want to quit...quitting is hard! no one is questioning that...but at the same time, how should I, as someone who is working hard toward bettering myself free of drugs/obesity, deal with those who behave in this way?

As mentioned before, I don't think this is a black or white issue, and I appreciate all responses.

Great thread. Enjoying the discussion.

Here's a question: Do we have a responsibility to help educate people? I kind of feel that I do. If it weren't for certain family members imparting words of wisdom as I grew up, the liklihood would be that I wouldn't be health-conscious at all. I wouldn't have even thought about pursueing knowledge on health or diet. I'd just go with the norm. Everyone on this board has had something fortunate happen to them that set them on the road to self-improvement; made them realise it was possible; gave them a choice.

I realise no one likes to have their bad habits pointed out so I just try to lead by example. Every now and then something small rubs off on the people around me, whether it be walking the 10-15 minutes to class rather than take the bus, buying brown instead of white bread, or not indulging in the greasy pizza hut buffet.

Growing up in the 'genetic' generation and the era of fast food, people have accepted obesity as who they are. This shouldn't be so! People need to be given an educated choice, not an ignorant one. I think that only once people have been given an educated choice can a discussion start on whether fat people should be embarrassed.

Great thread. Enjoying the discussion.

Here's a question: Do we have a responsibility to help educate people?

I think most people realize that walking is more healthful than taking the bus, that the Pizza Hut buffet isn't the best choice for lunch, and that brown rice is better than white (wait... not so sure about that last one... most people don't know there is such a thing as brown rice).

The problem isn't one of education... it's motivation. It's just so much easier to take the bus, or grab lunch at Pizza Hut. And if you have already accepted the fact that you are obese, there's not much motivating you to change that behavior.