I just read this article on Salon.com and thought it would be interesting to share. To read in full, you have to get the "free day pass" by watching the advertisment in the upper right hand corner.
It speaks volumes about what things are coming to despite some serious side effects.

I am not posting this to critisize or applaud this procedure, just thought it was very interesting.

Salon.com Article on Adolescent Gastric Bypass Surgery. (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/03/16/gastric_bypass/index.html)

Ya, it's a very drastice measure. The only worry I have is if the people aren't able to eat health and exercise, can they really handle the extreme diet after the surgery. And can eating so little food really be healthy?

But, than I've never being that overweight, so I don't know what it's like.

James

Thanks for the good article.

In my opinion nobody should let themselves get that big. And if they do, and want to lose the weight bad enough they should get off their lazy ass and excersise and diet. Its all mind of matter, and people who get that surgery dont have mind....i gues that makes sense, haha.


D

So these kids familys can only support a diet change when the familys are forced by their 'new' body to support it?

What the hell. If you're that obese and willing to change your diet that much for life there is absolutely no reason you cannot do the same thing by changing your diet the same way and lose weight without yoying. The key to keeping weight off is a consistent diet change, and that's what these people are doing. The surgery merely forces you to change your diet with no chance or choice of ever altering it. So the boy would have probably lost 5 lbs a week instead of 15 doing things the normal way, but the weight would have still came off if he and his familiy made a lifetime commitment to healthier eating habits and diet.

And considering how important nutrient absorbtion is, and how poor even our whole foods are in trace minerals after 150 years of idustrialized farming techniques, I wouldn't be surprised if most of these folks are dead by 55 from nutrient deficiency related conditions, supplementing with three ain't gonna cut it, especially if their intestinal tract is shortened.

Just a scary procedure.

I just cannot comprehend why is it easier to undergo a surgery where you have a 1 in 20 chance to die rather than not stuff your face with 9 slices of pizza in one sitting.

Also, can they undo the stapling? If these guys lose the weight and want to work out and need more calories, will be able to go back to have a normal stomach/intestinal track or will they have to literally constantly eat to get enough calories?
.

You guys/gals have to understand that these are seriously obese people that are getting this done most times. These are people who have probably been obese all their lives and it has become a medical importance to get thin.

Not all people are self-motivating. I wasn't. It has taken all I can do to just do what I do now. (that sounded odd). It wasn't until I stumbled on John's site that I a fire was lit under my butt. And the only reason why it has stuck is because John and I have such a similar background, life and build. Had it been anyone else, I would have just skipped the site altogether.

I still can't eat the "bird food" that some of the folks on here are eating, I wish I could. It's easy to say what you can and can't do when you are actually doing it.

Just put yourselves in their shoes and have a little sympathy. At least they are trying.

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

The mentality with the vast majority of people, including those of us who practice "clean eating," is to differentiate between eating necessity and eating choice.

After one gets his stomach stapled, the diet is more restrictive even than what most of us do. Yet they do it because they know if they don't, they're going to immediately and dangerously harmed. Same for a diabetic who might have had a major sweet tooth until he was diagnosed, then just dropped sugar cold turkey.

When you're overweight, eating one more bad thing won't harm you immediately in a way you can feel. The commitment to eat well requires faith. Getting your stomach stapled doesn't.

I'm not condoning the procedure necessarily, but I think it's unfair to compare the post-stapling diet mentality and the non-surgery clean eating mentality, as they're totally different. I think the procedure is frightening, but most of the people that get it would probably have died had they not gotten it done, so who am I to judge?

You guys/gals have to understand that these are seriously obese people that are getting this done most times. These are people who have probably been obese all their lives and it has become a medical importance to get thin.

Not all people are self-motivating. I wasn't. It has taken all I can do to just do what I do now. (that sounded odd). It wasn't until I stumbled on John's site that I a fire was lit under my butt. And the only reason why it has stuck is because John and I have such a similar background, life and build. Had it been anyone else, I would have just skipped the site altogether.

I still can't eat the "bird food" that some of the folks on here are eating, I wish I could. It's easy to say what you can and can't do when you are actually doing it.

Just put yourselves in their shoes and have a little sympathy. At least they are trying.

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. It is nobodys fault but their own. Notice none of them said "I ran a mile a day and lifted like mad, and ate clean and the weight just would not come off". They all ate like pigs and that is why they are so fat and unhealthy. I'm a Sports Admin. major and I take alot of Phys Ed classes and when you look at some of the stats at how many people are outta shape and why that is, it kinda makes you think "Good for them". I used to weigh 270 lbs. Whose fault was that? Mine. Because I didn't do anything and I ate like a horse. Now that I changed it up, without any surgeries I am down to 205lbs. I still have 20 or so lbs to go, but still, I wanted it bad enough I'd work for it...they should too if they want it so bad. In my opinion they aren't "trying". Laying down and letting someone shrink your stomach to the size of an egg so you dont have to do anything but hardly eat to lose weight is the easy way out, by far. I dont see how eating so little could be healthy or fun. And forget those cheat meals.

Stomach stapling is not the easy way out. Surgery is not easy. I've had quite a few "minor" surgeries (a couple dental, ligament in the knee, etc) and it's a real pain to deal with anasthesia and recovery. But these were easy operations: stomach stapling is much more serious and often requires a second or third surgery to deal with complications.

This kind of surgery is much harder to deal with than food cravings and hitting the gym.

As a society, we're learning to treat alcohol as an addiction rather then yelling at people to just "get over it and stop drinking!" Maybe it's time we do the same with food.

I nearly had a fit when my mother told me she was considering this option. She is 5'1" and weighs 255. She is diabetic and on cholesterol reducing meds. Heart disease runs in her family. I still didn't (and don't) want her to go through with the procedure due to the dangers associated with it. There is also the fact that she does nothing to try to fix it herself. I love my mother very much, so I don't mean any disrespect, but she has got to do this herself.

I'm very frustrated with the situation. She joined Weight Watchers to work on it. She lost 13 lbs. and isn't losing anymore. Do you know why she isn't losing anymore? She doesn't follow the meal plan! I just want to pull my hair out when she tells me these things! I'm completely at a loss as to why she would pay money to do the program and then not follow it.

According to her doctor, she is a prime candidate for the gastric bypass procedure. This is why she considered it. I just can't imagine how she would deal with the extreme change in diet. Especially when she is unwilling to do the change on her own. I just hope her not following the Weight Watchers program doesn't send her to the doc to go ahead with the procedure. I wish I could give her the ability to make the changes she needs to make. In the meantime, I will continue to let her know I don't agree with gastric bypass for her if she ever tells me she is considering it again.

I'm not sure if this post really goes along with everything else that was said. I guess I just wanted to vent a bit. So, I'm sorry if I've gone completely off track here, but thanks for listening (err... reading).

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there. It is nobodys fault but their own. Notice none of them said "I ran a mile a day and lifted like mad, and ate clean and the weight just would not come off". They all ate like pigs and that is why they are so fat and unhealthy. I'm a Sports Admin. major and I take alot of Phys Ed classes and when you look at some of the stats at how many people are outta shape and why that is, it kinda makes you think "Good for them". I used to weigh 270 lbs. Whose fault was that? Mine. Because I didn't do anything and I ate like a horse. Now that I changed it up, without any surgeries I am down to 205lbs. I still have 20 or so lbs to go, but still, I wanted it bad enough I'd work for it...they should too if they want it so bad. In my opinion they aren't "trying". Laying down and letting someone shrink your stomach to the size of an egg so you dont have to do anything but hardly eat to lose weight is the easy way out, by far. I dont see how eating so little could be healthy or fun. And forget those cheat meals.
I never posted that it was anyone else's fault, and I sure hope I didn't imply that. I agree, in most of those cases, it is probably their fault with the exceptional few that have actual medical conditions contributing to weight gain (I would think very few).

What I was trying to stress is not everyone can get the motivation that the few people on this board have. It's hard. You obviously know it and have done a tremendous thing with your weight loss.

But imagine if you will what it was like when you were not motivated. Also, imagine instead of weighting 270lbs that you were 350+ and were just about bed-ridden. Now, imagine that you had such little will power, that the idea of exercising or changing your whole seemed virtually impossible.

Who knows what people in their condition think about. Maybe they felt it was the only solution. Not everyone has a Richard Simmons to get them fired up :).

Speaking of which, Mr. Simmons was just handed an assualt charge for slapping a man who made fun of him. It's a crazy world we live in :spaz:

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

As a society, we're learning to treat alcohol as an addiction rather then yelling at people to just "get over it and stop drinking!" Maybe it's time we do the same with food.
This I would agree with completely :). I know I am addicted to bad food...which is why changing my diet completely eludes me.

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

It's my belief that there are two types of overweight people- people who don't put an emphasis on diet and exercise and thus are overweight, and then there are those for whom eating is a disease.

It stands to reason that it exists- you have bulimic and anorexic people, and the opposite is probably true- people who cannot stop eating. Factor in the societal pressures- nutritionally poor food readily available, a society where extremely large portions are served, and yet the ideal body image is one of the thin, healthy person- it should be no wonder that some people have a psychological addiction to eating.

They can exercise and diet, but the weak link is in their head. It's a terrible thing, and they should be afforded sympathy, I think.

That said, it does bother me how people always look for the quick fix rather than the long-term solution.

I never posted that it was anyone else's fault, and I sure hope I didn't imply that. I agree, in most of those cases, it is probably their fault with the exceptional few that have actual medical conditions contributing to weight gain (I would think very few).

What I was trying to stress is not everyone can get the motivation that the few people on this board have. It's hard. You obviously know it and have done a tremendous thing with your weight loss.

But imagine if you will what it was like when you were not motivated. Also, imagine instead of weighting 270lbs that you were 350+ and were just about bed-ridden. Now, imagine that you had such little will power, that the idea of exercising or changing your whole seemed virtually impossible.

Who knows what people in their condition think about. Maybe they felt it was the only solution. Not everyone has a Richard Simmons to get them fired up :).

Speaking of which, Mr. Simmons was just handed an assualt charge for slapping a man who made fun of him. It's a crazy world we live in :spaz:

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com


Ok, sorry if I missed you point. I know when I was 270 I had little willpower for awhile. Then I told my self "I have to do this, I can't get any heavier". My question is, why aren't these people who are 350+, why didn't they think the same thing before they got so big? I mean it doesn't happen over night. You don't just wake up and you are obese. This is the major reason I dont like the procedure. And how does one go about building or maintaining muscle mass when they are deprived of the amounts of food muscles require. I could be wrong, but they need to eat no more than a cup of food for a meal the rest of their life. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I very well could be. But how can someone who goes from 9 slices of pizza in one sitting (sounds like my cheat meals :o ) to eating so little for the rest of their life? I am against it, and think it is alot more important to learn about physical fitness and proper nutrition.

D

My friend's mother had this done. She had been obese for some 20 years, and as a result had all sorts of health problems- including completely messed up cartilage and tendons in her knees from carrying all that weight. She lives in a second floor condo and at one point the doc told her she gets exactly one trip up and down the stairs each day- any more than that and she'd do serious harm, if not fall and break her neck. Of course there were other related health problems, respiratory, etc. What it comes down to is that obesity can sometimes be so bad that it causes other health problems that make exercise pretty much impossible. Certainly, a change in diet is possible, but for some it may be a more urgent need- like, get rid of the weight NOW, not over the next 4-5 months, or face death. And of course there's the willpower issue. When you've been obese that long, you've also gone that long with absolutely no self discipline.

I'm not condoning the procedure- I haven't seen her since it was done, but my friend tells me it made her mother very sick for a while, and that she looked like a weak, skinny, sick old woman (she's only in her 50's and apparently looks much older). Hopefully that has improved since I heard about her last.

My final point is there may be other factors involved in choosing to have the procedure done other than, "I'm too lazy to do it myself."

I still don't get it. When you have your stomach stapled - as far as I know - all you get is a smaller stomach in terms of volume and a shorter intestinal track.

So the net result is that you a) cannot eat that much and b) there is a shorter distance/time for the nutrients to get digested. So most likely you will get much less calories than before, so you will lose weight.

But you can still eat junk all the time. Just instead of getting a double king size meal you are full after an order of small fries. If you don't clean up your eating you can still harm yourself just with much less calories. And if you do clean up your eating then why get the surgery at all?

But you can still eat junk all the time. Just instead of getting a double king size meal you are full after an order of small fries. If you don't clean up your eating you can still harm yourself just with much less calories. And if you do clean up your eating then why get the surgery at all?

It seems that you can't. That high sugar or grease food causes vomiting. The body can't handle it, so expels it. But that's all I know, and it only comes from a TV special I saw on Al Roker (and you can believe everything you see on TV, right?).

I saw a different program that featured teens who've had the surgery (similar to the Salon article). One boy was a Junior ROTC member in high school who said that he now hoped to be in the military. I turned to my husband and said "WHAT? The military's not going to take someone who can only eat 200 calories at time, who pukes when he eats the "wrong" food, who can't take in enough calories for extreme exercise!"

Then I got MAD. How could he not know that this would ruin his ambition to be in the military? What did his surgeons tell him? Did anyone sit him and down and say "Sorry kid, that ain't happening." Did he really have all the facts that he needed to make an educated decision about his future? Is 16 old enough to make these decisions?

Scary, scary stuff.
:confused:

Ok, sorry if I missed you point. I know when I was 270 I had little willpower for awhile. Then I told my self "I have to do this, I can't get any heavier". My question is, why aren't these people who are 350+, why didn't they think the same thing before they got so big? I mean it doesn't happen over night. You don't just wake up and you are obese. This is the major reason I dont like the procedure. And how does one go about building or maintaining muscle mass when they are deprived of the amounts of food muscles require. I could be wrong, but they need to eat no more than a cup of food for a meal the rest of their life. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I very well could be. But how can someone who goes from 9 slices of pizza in one sitting (sounds like my cheat meals :o ) to eating so little for the rest of their life? I am against it, and think it is alot more important to learn about physical fitness and proper nutrition.

D
You are absolutely right in that it would be more important to learn physical fitness and proper nutrition. I have no disagreements with that.

I tell you what though, you asked why a person didn't make a change before they got so big. I got to be 210 from 165 before I knew it. I just caught up to me. I was a poster boy for fitness and lean muscle...now I'm "Pathetic 32 year old boy"! I don't know how it happens. Laziness sets in with a real job and real life. I wish it wouldn't have happened to me, but it did.

Some of these people probably have it worse. As we know, they say roughly 3/4 of the US's population is overweight. That's a disgusting amount of people to be fat. There is bound to be some folks that just have a tougher go at it mentally than some of us here.

Me, if I could afford lypo I would probably do it. I plan on working out and staying fit for life now that I am on the right track, but I sure am impatient for that flat stomach again. That ain't no joke :).

Anyway, I see where you are coming from and understand your frustration at the stapling process. I guess sometimes we just have to sit a while in other's shoes to see the world from their eyes.

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

I see some points where it my be a last hope kind of thing. But i am still sticking to my guns by saying if they would move around a little bit, and stop themselves before they get that big, they would not be in this position in the first place.
I don't think anyone should be aloud to get it done until they are 21, parents permission or not. Alot of teen's would want it done to be socialy accepted, and aren't at rish for serious health problems. How can a growing teenager be deprived of nutrients....I just dont think its a good idea for anyone to do.

D

You are absolutely right in that it would be more important to learn physical fitness and proper nutrition. I have no disagreements with that.

I tell you what though, you asked why a person didn't make a change before they got so big. I got to be 210 from 165 before I knew it. I just caught up to me. I was a poster boy for fitness and lean muscle...now I'm "Pathetic 32 year old boy"! I don't know how it happens. Laziness sets in with a real job and real life. I wish it wouldn't have happened to me, but it did.

Some of these people probably have it worse. As we know, they say roughly 3/4 of the US's population is overweight. That's a disgusting amount of people to be fat. There is bound to be some folks that just have a tougher go at it mentally than some of us here.

Me, if I could afford lypo I would probably do it. I plan on working out and staying fit for life now that I am on the right track, but I sure am impatient for that flat stomach again. That ain't no joke :).

Anyway, I see where you are coming from and understand your frustration at the stapling process. I guess sometimes we just have to sit a while in other's shoes to see the world from their eyes.

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

Ok. so you got to 210 before you knew it. Far from 350, 400 lbs. And what did you do when you got to 210? You worked out and ate clean , right? See, you saw a problem and took care of it. I admit...it was nice to pig out and not count calories. But for me, once I started counting cal's and and working out I loved it and made it my new hobby, and I think if all these people who dont do anything and are 400 lbs and did what i did before it got too far, they may find they enjoy counting calories, and comparing day to day numbers. Its very motivational when you see by numbers you are eating healthy. My point is, as it always has been, I dont feel bad at all for these fat people who cry because they hate their bodies. In no case is someone obese and truly cant help it. I know there are people who can eat all they want and not gain a pound :mad: , but there is no excuse for getting so fat you can fit through your door.

I dont know, jsut kinda fires me up...there is alot more to being healthy than eating a cup of food a meal. I dont think this solves any health problems what so ever.

I think that it's clear anybody who overeats, especially severely. Is dealing with some kind of emotional problem, either complete lack of self esteem, or some traumatic event. Or merely just not caring because no one around them cares, thus you see whole families that are big, genetics put aside, because bad genetics are not an excuse to trash yourself.

Thus if they cannot "do it themselves" and need a surgery to force them to eat better, then they are not really ready to loose the weight. The surgery is just fixing the symtom, not the real problem.

Bottom line is you cannot fix a bad behavior, only replace it with a different, hopefully more healthy behavior, like so many of us have done. I know I spend as much time now eating right and trying to think positive (it ain't always easy) as I did eating junk food and feeling miserable before.

I have always thought that gastric bypass was a dangerous bandaid fix for a much deeper problem.

That said ultimately one has to put the candy bar down and get off the couch to make this change, whether it be through a surgery or just on their own.

So it's a combination of both factors, both psychological and behavioral that contribute. Just saying "they should get off their ass and put the fork down" is a little calous. On the flip side saying that it's completely out of their control and calling it an "addiction" is taking the responsibility away fromt the individual.

I just don't understand why part of the medical procedure doesn't include a mandatory 8 week trial period where they eat what they're going to eat for the rest of their lives (maybe larger portions, but the same principles of fewer calories and small meals). To actually get the surgery they'd have to turn in complete food logs for the entire 8 weeks, they fuck up, well if it was real (instead of a simulation of their future life) they'd have a medical problem, or be stuck vomiting. Not to mention that most of these folks would probably lose 20-40 lbs in 8 weeks just from following the restricted calorie diet. They'd see it's possible to make it without the drastic surgery, and then have to make a real choice between the surgery and no food-choice for the rest of their life, and taking it slow, going the normal way and maintaining choice. This would be for adolescents at least, for people like Andi mentioned, they're adults with very serious health issues and may need th3e surgery now, so they can make the decision.

I can't understand how the familys of these children can commit to a lifelong diet change when surgery forces it, but they can't put their foot down and make that same change without the surgery, that just boggles my mind!

Adam

This is a good topic. Its too bad it wasnt a pool to vote if you were in favor of it or not. I know im not. I mean, there are safer ways of doing this.

Stomach stapling is not the easy way out. Surgery is not easy. I've had quite a few "minor" surgeries (a couple dental, ligament in the knee, etc) and it's a real pain to deal with anasthesia and recovery. But these were easy operations: stomach stapling is much more serious and often requires a second or third surgery to deal with complications.


I've had one of the most major operations out there: I had rods installed in my back and parts of my spine fused up in order to correct scoliosis. I have to tell you that from the outset, if you don't have the right attitude and a desire to make significant changes, surgery can look like an easy way to circumvent what looks like a mountain of hard work and misery at the dinner table.

There are some prevailing attitudes in this country about doing what the John Stones have done. In a modern world where convenience and speed rule, the idea of eating simple, whole foods, taking time to choose and prepare them, and then spending serious time exercising and strengthening simply does not appeal to people, and this is especially true for people who have a lot of that kind of work to do to get into healthy shape. Add to this depictions in the media of easy plastic surgery, massive makeovers thanks to the knife, and celebrities throwing in the towel and getting stapled, and you have an atmosphere which is not conducive to people making the positive changes that over time bring results.

So imagine you're a mom or dad on the go, working hard, with little time to prepare meals. You yourself are probably overweight or just out of shape at best. Fast food and pizza are common at the kitchen table, and your kids love that Playstation or PC. Once out of shape and/or overweight in a socially stresful environment, over time those kids are going to become more embarrassed and withdrawn and the problem worsens rapidly. Suddenly, you have an obese, miserable child getting nothing but rejection and you want so badly to fix things. You read a magazine or see a program on cable about gastric bypass, and, major surgery being an abstract concept to you (and most people, I would venture) , it's appealing... but really, the wrong choice.

Hm. Sorry to ramble. I hope my point's in there somewhere.

Personally, I wish I had seen the obvious a long time ago and not let myself get that out of whack, ya know? I wouldn't ever have my stomach stapled, but I do understand that if I can get out of shape in just a few short years, then there must be others even worse off than me.

I have been reading more about the stapling today due to this thread (which I agree, is a great thread) and I can safetly say, I am glad I choose the fitness method.

I do however think that there is a time and place for this surgery and there are those where it is their only chance left.

Definitely looks like I would have lost the poll though :).

Stephen
http://www.boredskm.com

I would think that going on the same restrictive eating plan before and after surgery are two completely different experiences, so it's not accurate to just say, "Why don't they diet anyway if they're going to after surgery?" Stapling makes the stomach so small that it probably decreases one's appetite. I would guess the cravings are significantly lessened.

Plus, to reiterate my diabetes analogy, it's a different mentality when you know that something you do will immediately impact you negatively than just contribute to harming you in the long run.