I know that cassein is better because of the speed of release, but is whey like...useless at night?

I ask because lately my ratios have been a bit whacky by the end of the day and an easy whey shake would really even them out better than scarfing a ton of cottage cheese (calories to protein ratio considered)

Is there a reason why whey is BAD at night?

I've searched and find it hard to come up with the appropriate terms sometimes

I think in general when this question has been asked in various forms before, the answer has been something to the effect that whey digests relatively quickly so fiberous or other long digesting types of foods are better at night...I don't know the diff. between all the types of whey, so hopefully someone else will respond to that...but I think as long as it fits in to your *caloric* schema it should be acceptable to eat about any type of food before bed...

Whey isnt bad at night, its just not as efficient as casein. I believe its because whey is digested a lot faster so it doesnt supply your body with a steady stream of protein throughout the night. This can cause you to become catabolic, which is what youre trying to avoid by taking a protein which digests slowly.

edited to add thelemonsong beat me to the answer by 2mins, thats what I get for getting up and making my shake.

The fear of becoming catabolic at night is "whey" overblown especially if your bulking. Even if you're cutting, the fear of catabolism will really only come into play when your body fat is at a low to pretty low number. If you're hovering over 10%, ,unless you're starving yourself, don't fear catabolism too much.
It's more of a bodybuilder 5% looking to go to 3 or 2% and have to preserve every last once of muscle possible type thing ;)


As far as protein choices go you can get by with whey if you try to slow it down with a fat. Be sure it's mixed well so that the fat "binds" with the whey, slowing gastric emptying. It's still not a great choice and you'd be better off having an omelette or chicken breast before bed.

Whey isn't specifically BAD at night .... it just isn't all that good. The reason is that whey is pretty much gone after a couple of hours. One solution is to mix your whey with milk -- The casein (in the milk) actually clumps with whey and dramatically slows its release into the bloodstream.

I used to take 100% whey before bed and would wake up the next morning starving, so I knew the protein wasn't lasting through the night. For the past month, I've been using Nitrean protein with skim milk at night before bed. So far, I've been pleased with the results:tu: Nitrean is a blend of whey, egg and casein proteins.

Right, thanks for clarifying. I really shouldn't have said "bad", but it was late and I was tired. "Useless" would have been a better term to use for what I was thinking.

So it's to prevent catabolism, which probably won't be a factor for my chubs, but casein is better when possible, or egg or something along those lines.

Cool. Thanks again.

The casein (in the milk) actually clumps with whey and dramatically slows its release into the bloodstream.


I'd really like to know the source of this info.

I guess I didn't keep the study, but I certainly read one that showed that the whey and casein fractions IN MILK are absorbed seperately. The casein or even fat hardly slows the absorption of the whey fraction. I think the 'classic' insulin index study shows this (i.e. that dairy has high insulin index, despite having low GI), but I can't specifically remember.

The whey before bed thing is basically a waste of calories if you are cutting. Your body can't really use the protein and it doesn't provide any steady source of energy. You'd be better with a fat or low GI carb - or better still any other form or protein.

A simple glass of milk would not be bad - 80% casein. Any whole food protein will be decent.

On whey and casein seperation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3487817&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4023394&query_hl=23&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Unfortunately in a cow, but still, I guess calves do tend to drink cows milk.

Adding fat does not slow whey absorption:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12080406&query_hl=23&itool=pubmed_docsum

Adding fat does not slow whey absorption:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12080406&query_hl=23&itool=pubmed_docsum

Interesting, hadn't seen that one

Fat does affect emptying to a degree...mind you, this study was a blend:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4029558&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

This one tends to suggest that cloric density will affect emptying....so adding a calorical dense fat such as PB is going to play a role in emptying rates:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9032702&query_hl=12&itool=pubmed_docsum


Here's a nice little synopsis on proteins for anyone not interested in all the clinical study stuff:
http://www.universalnutrition.com/enter/cf/articles/bestprotiein.cfm

[QUOTE=Gordo]Interesting, hadn't seen that one

Fat does affect emptying to a degree...mind you, this study was a blend:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4029558&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

I read that as simply the different fats were digested at different rates and that fat differences are more important than carb differences in the absorption of a MEAL. It doesn't suggest the whey was absorbed any slower.

What I was suggesting is that adding fat does not slow down the absorption of the whey fraction in a mostly protein mix.

I totally agree that adding fat to a normal meal will slow absorption of the meal as a whole. I think people have just assumed that it would work for a whey shake.

This one tends to suggest that cloric density will affect emptying....so adding a calorical dense fat such as PB is going to play a role in emptying rates:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9032702&query_hl=12&itool=pubmed_docsum




Note the phrase:

Despite the lower rate of gastric emptying for the milk protein solution, the rate of caloric delivery to the duodenum during the early phase of the gastric emptying process was higher than that for the other three solutions (46.3 +/- 6, 63.5 +/- 22, 62.5 +/- 19 and 113.8 +/- 25 cal min-1 kg-1 for the glucose, pea peptide hydrolysate, whey peptide hydrolysate and milk protein meals, respectively; P < 0.05).

Which suggests that 'something' in the milk is being absorbed more quickly despite the fat and casein content (i.e. sugar, possibly the whey fraction). We know milk has a high Insulin Index. Good reference, thanks.

We know overall that milk will be absorbed slower than a simple whey protein. The question is whether the whey fraction of milk (or a milk + whey concentrate) is slowed by the fat and/or casein in the milk. Personaly, from what I have read, it is not.

I

Here's a nice little synopsis on proteins for anyone not interested in all the clinical study stuff:
http://www.universalnutrition.com/enter/cf/articles/bestprotiein.cfm

Nice. I agree it is important not to think of any one protein as 'best' or better than another.

Of course blends are more expensive, which IMO is why people try to convince themselves they can make whey into a 'blend' - i.e. slow absorption by adding milk and/or fat.

Adding milk is simply creating a type of blend, not slowing the whey absorption. Add milk and some eggwhites - woah, now there's an idea!

Well "creating" a blend has its place....and would probably be very useful PWO or PPWO for that matter (still trying to come up with a baked bar that includes cc, milk, egg white, and pure whey and still tastes okay....I'm getting close)

For the rest of the day, your 'best' choice is likely still the old standards:

*eggs (still the best of the bunch I think) - yo Rocky
lean meats
milk - does the body good

at night, pure casein is still my pick (in the form of cottage cheese)

The question is whether the whey fraction of milk (or a milk + whey concentrate) is slowed by the fat and/or casein in the milk. Personaly, from what I have read, it is not.
Ditto,
Based on what I've read, the casein fraction in milk will not slow down whey because the casein simply clumps in the stomach but the whey continues on for immediate uptake.

I hadn't read that you couldn't bind whey with a fat, so that came as a surprise to me.

My own blend:

1/4C Egg Whites
1/2C Danone Silhouette Yogurt
1/2C Skim Milk
1 Scoop Vanilla Whey
1 Container Pineapple Cottage Cheese (the mix stuff - 150g container)
=
340 Cals
4g Fat (2g SF)
32g Carbs (29g sugars)
46g Protein
3g Good Flavour and Texture
5g Bad Flavour and Texture

Overall, not that good and I won't make it again.

I'd really like to know the source of this info.

I guess I didn't keep the study, but I certainly read one that showed that the whey and casein fractions IN MILK are absorbed seperately. The casein or even fat hardly slows the absorption of the whey fraction. I think the 'classic' insulin index study shows this (i.e. that dairy has high insulin index, despite having low GI), but I can't specifically remember.

The whey before bed thing is basically a waste of calories if you are cutting. Your body can't really use the protein and it doesn't provide any steady source of energy. You'd be better with a fat or low GI carb - or better still any other form or protein.

A simple glass of milk would not be bad - 80% casein. Any whole food protein will be decent.

On whey and casein seperation:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3487817&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=4023394&query_hl=23&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Unfortunately in a cow, but still, I guess calves do tend to drink cows milk.

Adding fat does not slow whey absorption:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12080406&query_hl=23&itool=pubmed_docsum

Well....those studies were on cows .... not sure if I'd equate the digestive system of a cow with that of a human. Anyway, I read that quite some time ago, and I don't remember the source. A quick search though brings up a few interesting sources (albeit, not primary ... I just don't have the time or energy to be traversing through the pubmed archives).

Personally, I don't take casein/whey blends immediately PWO because of the potential for the slowing down of whey absorption. I usually take straight whey and water immediately, and follow up with some casein (or a blend like Nitrean) about an hour later. Apparently, John Berardi seems to agree with this notion as he also contends that casein slows down the absorption of whey: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/proroundtable.htm

Quote from the article:
Remember that in the study, blood amino acid levels with whey were still greater than casein after two hours. So by taking a big dose of whey immediately after the workout, you're going to flood the body with aminos and this rise will stay up for about two hours, reaching levels higher than casein can. Then at the two hour mark, if you eat some other protein meal, you're set up for the day. I really think, though, that you need that infusion of aminos that whey can give right after the workout.

The next question is, why not whey and casein together? Well, combining whey and casein might lead to a slowing of whey absorption. In this case you'd be missing out on some of the protein synthesis that you could get otherwise. Personally, I mix up a 50 gram whey shake and bring it to the gym with me. Immediately after my training I drink it down. Then, about 60 to 90 minutes later, I take in about 50 grams of casein (cottage cheese) with a bunch of carbs.

Indeed, casein does clump in the stomach, and it slows down gastric emptying (and thereby slowing down the rate of whey absorption).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8599318&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum

This was also discussed at the roundtable at wannabebig website:
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=109. It is well referenced, so if you wanna dig through them, I am sure you will find more info there ....

Some notable quotes:
The other issue that this question brings up is that of protein types. If you are having ONLY a pre-workout shake OR a post-workout shake, I would say adding milk is, in general, a bad idea. It will slow the absorption of amino acids in the gut during a period when you want a rapid increase in blood amino-acid levels. Milk protein is composed of two fractions, which are casein (accounting for approximately 80% of the protein in milk) and whey (which accounts for the remaining 20%) These have, respectively, been characterized as 'slow' and 'fast' proteins according to the rate at which they are digested and the speed at which amino-acids enter the bloodstream. (1) Whey results in a rapid, high spike in blood amino acid level which is highly anabolic, whereas casein results in a slow, steady increase in plasma amino-acid levels that is anti-catabolic in nature. (2) Mahe et al, who looked at the differences in digestion between casein and beta-lactoglobulin (which is the major subfraction in whey) found that casein clots in the acidic environment of the stomach, which delays gastric emptying, and results in a prolonged, steady released of amino-acids. Whey, in contrast, remains soluble in the stomach, and quickly makes its way further down the digestive track resulting in the characteristic rapid peak in blood amino levels

Mixing your post-workout protein shake with milk is not a bad idea per se, but it’s sub-par.

casein is the predominant protein that milk consists of (about 80% or so, with about 20% being whey). Casein actually forms clots in the stomach during digestion, forming a sort of paste that slows digestion further. Again, this is not something you’re striving for, so milk consumption during this time is not the obvious choice.

While some have inferred from the research that by consuming both casein and whey together you'll get both the anti-catabolic effects of casein along with the anabolism of whey, this is unlikely. As Lyle McDonald, and a number of others have pointed out, it is more likely that since casein clots in the gut, and slows gastric emptying, you'll be slowing down the whey, causing it to act much like casein.

There are also a number of links on that same site to primary sources discussing the role of fats, and how the slow down the absorption of proteins .... if you are interested.

A few other so-so links:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm

I know what you are thinking, "Why not just mix them together and get the best of both worlds?" Well, I am one step ahead of you. Casein has a unique property, in that ii coagulates in the stomach.12 This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.

Have you ever tried to run through a vat of tar? It isn't easy by any means. You would be moving very slowly. Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.

This simple little fact would nullify the biggest and most important attribute of whey. That is its ability to flood your system quickly with amino acid and stimulate protein synthesis.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catprot.htm
The best way to counter this effect a bit is to mix it in milk and not water. As I explained in my last article the casein in milk protein slows down the digestion of the whey protein, which may give it more time to absorb. It's a bit of a time-release mechanism.

http://www.21cecpharm.com/nutri/whey.htm
But caution is the key, because of its short-lived half-life, it is recommended to take 2-4 times a day. The best way to counter this is to mix it in milk, the casein in milk protein slows down the digestion of the whey protein, which may give it more time to absorb.

This is turning into a milk/no milk debate....but just a few to the contrary...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/1/96

Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11915776

In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.

Also the 'famed' insulin rush helping anabolism, may be a little overblown anyway ....unless you're injecting it....and othen than the pros, people don't do that.....this would be a bad idea anyway:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/3/1168

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/1/E92?ijkey=47e44c327d05a3f8a61875e251a273d87e2cc3db&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Haha, this is cracking me up.

So the answer COULD be that if I take whey at night with milk, I'll be alright, and the answer COULD be that having whey with milk will do nothing re the absorption of the whey, but the answer DEFINITELY is that I should just eat cottage cheese at night.

Indeed, casein does clump in the stomach, and it slows down gastric emptying (and thereby slowing down the rate of whey absorption).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=8599318&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_docsum

I see no mention of whey nor an inference that casein would indeed slow down the whey fraction in milk or a casein whey meal. Your making that inference but that study doesn't seem to suggest that....it just says that casein is a slow release of aminos.

have a look at this one:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15168035&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum
CONCLUSIONS: The rate of gastric emptying and the plasma GLP-1 and PYY responses to feeding with cow milk protein solutions in humans are independent of the degree of protein fractionation and are not altered by small differences in the amino acid composition or protein solubility.

I don't believe "one hold up the other", the whey passes on to the small intestines for immediate uptake, the casein clumps and take many hours to digest, in essence giving you a nice sl-owwww release on aminos for hours

I don't believe "one hold up the other", the whey passes on to the small intestines for immediate uptake, the casein clumps and take many hours to digest, in essence giving you a nice sl-owwww release on aminos for hours

Actually, the conclusion from that study is that it delays gastric emptying and slows digestion in general....hence delaying absorption of whey.

have a look at this one:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246

Well...this suggests that peak amino acid concentration occurs within about 35 mins, but even if whey is slowed, and not much is digested immediately, this would also be true given the relatively slow release of casein and low baseline. This study really doesn't indicate whether casein slows the release of whey .... It could very well slow the release (although it would still be faster than casein), and you'd still get the same results cited in this study.

Now, we could probably debate this ad infinitum, but the point is that this is a obviously a controversial subject -- and while you may be convinced that it is perfectly fine to mix milk with your whey PWO, a number of people disagree with you on this, including John Berardi. Am I 100% convinced that casein slows the absorption of whey? Nope. Not by a long shot -- but, from what I've read, it certainly could, and many think it does. That is enough for me to make a small sacrifice and avoid milk immediately PWO. After all, there is no downside to avoiding milk, and there is a possible strong upside. I will have some dairy (usually cottage cheese), or a whole protein meal about an hour later -- but in the meantime, and until more firm evidence exists on the subject, I drink my whey with water.

Haha, this is cracking me up.

So the answer COULD be that if I take whey at night with milk, I'll be alright, and the answer COULD be that having whey with milk will do nothing re the absorption of the whey, but the answer DEFINITELY is that I should just eat cottage cheese at night.

Oy! I got so caught up in the milk/whey thing that I forgot the original context in which I made the comment (which is why I started talking about PWO drinks instead of bed-time drinks). Yeah, it basically comes down to this, milk may (or may not) slow down the absorption of whey. Either way though, it IS STILL better to mix whey with milk before bed-time because you will get the benefits of slow release casein. It is a win-win situation either way.

Situation #1: I am right. You get slow-release protein all night.

Situation #2: Gordo is right. You still get slow-release protein all night, but you may get a little bit of anabolism in addition to anti-catabolism.

Of course, I think cottage cheese is the best alternative, so if you can manage to choke down some of that stuff, then you are all set. I happen to like cottage cheese, so I am lucky in that respect.

Haha, this is cracking me up.

So the answer COULD be that if I take whey at night with milk, I'll be alright, and the answer COULD be that having whey with milk will do nothing re the absorption of the whey, but the answer DEFINITELY is that I should just eat cottage cheese at night.

Yeah it does get funny...dpending on which side of the fence you sit... It becomes a tennis match really.

Don't put too much thought into it....

Meet your calculated protein requirements (and there's a whole bunch of thought on how much that is just as crazy as the "which protein and when" debates)
Workout hard.

Whey is good in a pinch and is great post workout but yes you are "likely" better off getting your protein from other sources throughout the day. How much makes the difference....no one really knows. In the grand scheme of things does it really matter....probably not. No one's gonna look like a pro anyways because it's all gear, superhuman workouts and eating big. I can do one of them (eat big) but 1 don't interest me,and the second is hard without the first.

So long as you measure a progress in your workouts and don't take any steps backwards....you are doing the right thing. ;)

Thanks guys. I appreciate it. And I definitely learned a lot from this thread...unintentionally, but I learned!

Good thing I don't want to look like a pro. That doesn't interest me in the least. I just don't want to look like a pig. That'd be a start for me.