ive been messing around latelly with peanut butter/banana/dex.....and was curious what you guys feel is the best options for PWO shake ing.

Immediate PWO: 16 oz water, +2 scoops X-tend, +2 small scoops Gatorade.

PPWO quickly: 16 oz water, 2 scoops Nitrean, 1 oz cream

PPPWO 1 hour: Dinner

ive been messing around latelly with peanut butter/banana/dex.....and was curious what you guys feel is the best options for PWO shake ing.

Drop the PB.

I have a custom mix from true protein.

Starting this week:

2 servings - during and after

Water
20g Protein
25g Dex
25g Malto

well got PB today because gym was out of bananas but normal shake is banana/water ice/3 scoops whey, startin dex soon.

does dex mix well in a shaker with whey and water?

well got PB today because gym was out of bananas but normal shake is banana/water ice/3 scoops whey, startin dex soon.

does dex mix well in a shaker with whey and water?

I thought you meant you were putting actual peanut butter in your shake :lol: Nothing wrong with it i do it all the time but its makes very little sense PWO.

Dex mixes very well.

I think i still have it wrong, you DID? put PB in your PWO shake?

I thought you meant you were putting actual peanut butter in your shake :lol: Nothing wrong with it i do it all the time but its makes very little sense PWO.

Dex mixes very well.

I think i still have it wrong, you DID? put PB in your PWO shake?

yes, today my shake had PB in it with whey and water/ice :) i dont really figure on doing it again like i sayd it was either that or just whey with water/ice.

i just got my dex from kent, going to start those as soon as saturday. Dex/Water/Ice/Whey :tucool:

yes, today my shake had PB in it with whey and water/ice :) i dont really figure on doing it again like i sayd it was either that or just whey with water/ice.

i just got my dex from kent, going to start those as soon as saturday. Dex/Water/Ice/Whey :tucool:

I would of just went with whey and water.

Anyhow, what's your overall goal? For reference 1TSBP of dex is about 10grams of dex, i would try to get 50grams around your workouts if your looking to gain muscle and not too concerned with cutting fat.

I would of just went with whey and water.

Anyhow, what's your overall goal? For reference 1TSBP of dex is about 10grams of dex, i would try to get 50grams around your workouts if your looking to gain muscle and not too concerned with cutting fat.

my main goal is fat loss, i think i have about 20lb of fat that if i can loose those 20 pounds of fat and no muscle ill be great.

so with that in mind.....suggestion?

I don't really dramatically alter my PWO shake regardless as to whether I'm cutting or bulking.

Peanut Butter isn't a great idea just because it's high in fat, and fat slows down protein absorption. That's definitely not something you want post-workout, but other times of the day would be fine.

Also, 3 scoops of whey is a little much. Your body can only handle so much protein at one time. 2 scoops would be about 40-50g of protein which is already more than most people here use.

Basically you just want at least 20g of protein and at the very least an equal amount of carbohydrates, although many people seem to advocate a 2:1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein. I just use one scoop of hydrolyzed whey and one scoop of a protein blend (whey isolate, egg white protien, micellar casein), which gives me about 50g of protein. I combine that with 25g of Dextrose and 45g Maltodextrin.

Just before I drink this I take 5g of CEE, 10g of BCAA's, 3g of Citrulline Malate, and 5g of Leucine.

L-Glutamine, 4 Scoops Protein Powder (Chocolate, 64 gm protein), 1 Tblsp peanut butter, water.

I just use the lowest fat chocolate milk I can get on sale each week. Works well for me.

33g protein (Nitrean)
45g maltodextrin
15g dextrose
creatine 5g
BCAA's

All amounts are approximate.:tucool:

It changes all the time, in accordance to what periodized training and/or nutritional phase I am in.

Most times, unless prepping for a show, I don't have one.

20g protien shake mix (chocolate) in 12-16oz of skim milk. I have another one at night between dinner and bed. Adds a little over 60+g of protein into my diet.

I change it from time to time....but

today:

whey
ground oats
honey
banana
water

my main goal is fat loss, i think i have about 20lb of fat that if i can loose those 20 pounds of fat and no muscle ill be great.

so with that in mind.....suggestion?

Glaive, had some good advice.

Since i have a good overall meal plan now i don't change my PWO shakes anymore, there basically the same, if i'm trying to lose fat or gain muscle.

General guidelines i follow:

- 2:1 ratio - carbs/protein

- Carbs(g) = %80 of your lean body mass in kg IE if you have 100kg of lean body mass you would use 80grams of carbs in your shake.

- Protein(g) = %40 of your lean body mass in kg.

Hope this makes sense i just wokeup :D

btw this is John Berardi's recommendations - i was reading recently polquin was using a 3:1 ratiio with good results but i don't know anything about it.

also like to add Berardi uses Malto and Dex.

hey... I have 1 scoop whey, dex and water. I eat it with a banana. I actually like the taste of my whey so I don't do too much with it.
Oh, I have creatine in mine usually, but am cycling and am off it right now.
cheers,
MIKE

I wanna try dex for my PWO but my health consicious part of me says pure grape juice.Its very high glycemic and supposedly loaded with flavanoids and anti-oxidants.

So grape juice and whey.

ive been messing around latelly with peanut butter/banana/dex.....and was curious what you guys feel is the best options for PWO shake ing.




If I do anything, it is similar to Gordo’s or Mastover’s comments. It really depends on what I eat prior to my workout on what I may or may not need for a recovery shake. PWO, it may be a protein shake with oats, or honey, or I may skip the shake and go right to a meal with carbs and protein.

What is essential, whether anyone has a PWO shake or not, is a real meal consisting of a protein, complex carbs from veggies, and a starch such as sweet potato or brown rice. This is not directed to you, levalution, but the many who seem to ignore their PPWO meals in the 100’s of posts about dextrose that I see over and over again. The answers to muscle recovery and growth are in real food, not in corn sugar and it happens over the next 72 hours, not PWO. If anyone feels they need something PWO for extra recovery, then fine, take it, but don’t do so at the expense of your real meals. If you drink so much sugar PWO that you cannot eat a meal an hour or two after that, you are making a huge mistake in your recovery and growth, IMO. I find it hard to believe that those of you who go in and work one or two body parts and burn 300-500 calories need a lot of sugar in their PWO shake.

Its very high glycemic


Is that a fact??? - or your opinion, or something you just assumed, or something you believe because XXXX posted somewhere that it was, so it must be true.


I guess if you hand around long enough the same old BB internet myths just keep going around.

It changes all the time, in accordance to what periodized training and/or nutritional phase I am in.

Most times, unless prepping for a show, I don't have one.

Nice!

Mine also changes completely depending on all sorts of factors.

The comment remined me of someone I trained with taking whey+dex PWO. Not unusual, but I pointed out to them that they just had a large, low GI meal 30 mins before the workout and couldn't possibly have digested it all.

'Yes, I still feel full - but you gotta spike insulin PWO'

Err - OK. Not sure how much of a spike he was expecting, but whatever...

Is that a fact??? - or your opinion, or something you just assumed, or something you believe because XXXX posted somewhere that it was, so it must be true.
Grape juice is relatively higher GI than other fruit juices because grapes contain a lot of glucose. Glucose is called "grape sugar" around here for that reason :). Though on absolute scale grape juice is merely medium-high, about the same as regular bread products, because it contains a plenty of low GI fructose as well.

I use about 24g of whey and 48g dex when on a bulk. I use 24/24 on a cut (at the moment). I don't feel that I need more than that at all, and by tweaking around I discovered what made me feel the best after I drink it. However I am going to be messing around with drinking it during my workout next bulk, with a smaller finisher PWO shake after. I make my shakes proportional to the work that I have done. I make my meals proportional to my goals. :)

Is that a fact??? - or your opinion, or something you just assumed, or something you believe because XXXX posted somewhere that it was, so it must be true.


I guess if you hand around long enough the same old BB internet myths just keep going around.


I wish I could say fact.I have read that in many bodybuilding mags as it was to be used to load creatine since they said it was very high glycemic.I believe that it has a ratio of glucose to fructose thats 2.1.Orange juice as an example has a 1.1 glucose/fructose ratio as does white grape juice.Pear juice is higher in fructose than glucose as is apple juice hence the lower glycemic value.

I do know that I drink my PWO drink everyday at 6am and by 7am I have low blood sugar.If I eat my PPWO meal of oats and whey past 1.5 hrs after my PWO shake I get super low blood sugar.I need to consume right on the one hr mark and miraculously I am stable for 4 hrs!!!

This doesnt happen to me if I use apple juice or even orange juice.

Take that as you want!:spaz:

I see people commenting on that taking XXXX amount of carbs PWO is silly and not needed.

It just so happens that it all depends on your diet and goals.If you are taking in carbs 6 times a day then you can use less dex PWO.But remember that your insulin sensitivity is at its highest right after a workout(also in mornings!!!).Why not use that window of opportunity to cram carbs into the worked muscles when you have it???

By doing this you can then eat less carbs thruout the day and be better able to burn fat as fuel.

Grape juice is relatively higher GI than other fruit juices because grapes contain a lot of glucose. Glucose is called "grape sugar" around here for that reason :). Though on absolute scale grape juice is merely medium-high, about the same as regular bread products, because it contains a plenty of low GI fructose as well.


Thanks sigakoer for the tips.I like that it has fructose in it since it supposedly replenishes liver glycogen.I need my liver full since I have bad hypoglycemia and with an empty tank your body will start breaking down muscle or using free amino acids for glucogenesis:eek:

Anyone know this.....if your liver is empty of glycogen,will your body breakdown muscle glycogen to make blood glucose or does it go directly into glucogenesis??

I see people commenting on that taking XXXX amount of carbs PWO is silly and not needed.

It just so happens that it all depends on your diet and goals.If you are taking in carbs 6 times a day then you can use less dex PWO.But remember that your insulin sensitivity is at its highest right after a workout(also in mornings!!!).Why not use that window of opportunity to cram carbs into the worked muscles when you have it???

By doing this you can then eat less carbs thruout the day and be better able to burn fat as fuel.


Yes, but if you eat 200g and you only replenish 100g, then the other 100 is typically stored as fat.

20g whey protein
35g dextrose
4.5g l-glutamine

Peanut Butter isn't a great idea just because it's high in fat, and fat slows down protein absorption. That's definitely not something you want post-workout, but other times of the day would be fine.

And I agree, not only that but it could blunt GH (growth hormone), or so Ian King says but I believe anything that man says.

Yes, but if you eat 200g and you only replenish 100g, then the other 100 is typically stored as fat.


Most use 50gms andsome 100.200gms is a huge amount but if you weight 220 ripped and consume all your carbs around your workouts,it could work.

Mr. King is correct. Insulin blunts the release of growth hormone, so it is a double edge sword. Insulin can be anabolic in that it helps to drive amino acids (protein) into muscle cells, thus improving the rate of muscle recovery and growth from exercise. But insulin can be lipogenic in that chronically high levels increase body fat. In fact, spiking your insulin with dex will shut down liposis (fat burning) and shut down GH release.

Carbs PWO are important, but dex is not, and far from essential. It is what I consider a "shit carb," a simple carb with no nutritional value. In fact, it can be unhealthy in some by increasing their triglycerides, the thick plaque formed from excess sugar in the blood that loves to hang out on your arterial walls. Those that use it should do so wisely and in small amounts and should get their triglycerides checked as part of their annual checkup.

Another reason that I don't care for it is because it is corn sugar, bleached white with chlorine and still contains chlorine residue. No thanks. I can get my carbs from much better sources. Those articles that push dex the most have a financial interest in its sale, so I would not rely solely on those articles as an authority.


I'm assuming you don't think much of maltodextrin either.

And I agree, not only that but it could blunt GH (growth hormone), or so Ian King says but I believe anything that man says.




Mr. King is correct. Insulin blunts the release of growth hormone, so it is a double edge sword. Insulin can be anabolic in that it helps to drive amino acids (protein) into muscle cells, thus improving the rate of muscle recovery and growth from exercise. But insulin can be lipogenic in that chronically high levels increase body fat. In fact, spiking your insulin with dex will shut down liposis (fat burning) and shut down GH release.

Carbs PWO are important, but dex is not, and far from essential. It is what I consider a "shit carb," a simple carb with no nutritional value. In fact, it can be unhealthy in some by increasing their triglycerides, the thick plaque formed from excess sugar in the blood that loves to hang out on your arterial walls. Those that use it should do so wisely and in small amounts and should get their triglycerides checked as part of their annual checkup.

Another reason that I don't care for it is because it is corn sugar, bleached white with chlorine and still contains chlorine residue. No thanks. I can get my carbs from much better sources. Those articles that push dex: either the authors and/or the magazines have a financial interest in its sale, so I would not rely solely on those articles as an authority.

Mr. King is correct. Insulin blunts the release of growth hormone, so it is a double edge sword. Insulin can be anabolic in that it helps to drive amino acids (protein) into muscle cells, thus improving the rate of muscle recovery and growth from exercise. But insulin can be lipogenic in that chronically high levels increase body fat. In fact, spiking your insulin with dex will shut down liposis (fat burning) and shut down GH release.

Carbs PWO are important, but dex is not, and far from essential. It is what I consider a "shit carb," a simple carb with no nutritional value. In fact, it can be unhealthy in some by increasing their triglycerides, the thick plaque formed from excess sugar in the blood that loves to hang out on your arterial walls. Those that use it should do so wisely and in small amounts and should get their triglycerides checked as part of their annual checkup.

Another reason that I don't care for it is because it is corn sugar, bleached white with chlorine and still contains chlorine residue. No thanks. I can get my carbs from much better sources. Those articles that push dex: either the authors and/or the magazines have a financial interest in its sale, so I would not rely solely on those articles as an authority.


How the heck did that happen? Swole, what about malto?

How the heck did that happen? Swole, what about malto?



Ha-ha. Time warp.

I know a lot of people swear by it and if it is working for you go with it. I know you don't take large amounts and you eat well, which is key for growth and recovery.

How the heck did that happen? Swole, what about malto?



And...you don't have to be concerned with whether fat burning is shut down or not, as you are one lean and mean dude. If anything, I am the one who needs to take it easy on my carb intake.

Swole - Quick question. Have you found that there is any significant difference between taking a PWO shake and replacing it with a PWO meal instead? I'm famailiar with the anabolic window and eating meals of certain ratios after a workout for the next few hours. I would just like to hear if you've found that there isn't a need for PWO shake, or one with slower acting, healthier carbs (oats, honey, as per your previous post). You're a big guy. You wouldn't get there by accident.

I just got a couple of DVDs from the Udo oil man :-). One of them is a lecture on nutrition and it actually says that pre-workout AND post-workout should be a shake consisting of fats (suggests the Udo Oil Blend surprise surprise!) and protein, with water and sweetener like splenda. 45 minutes after your PWO shake, have a balanced carb/protein/fat meal. Now, I can't imagine myself pushing weights on relatively no carbs! PWO I've never been a "insulin spike" junkie but I got in about 40g carbs through milk and sugar. Is the PWO just a myth? So many have succeeded on it, but was it actually the defining factor? Who knows....I've been gaining on my high carb PWO so I really can't say!

I am going to cut down on my post workout carbs i.e. the sugar, relying on only the ones that are provided in the milk (although they are quick release too....doh!). But pre-workout with no carbs is pretty much like doing weights fasted. For me, IMPOSSIBLE!!!

My PWO consisted of 400ml-500ml semi-skimmed milk, whey protein, 10g sugar. That may be about to change.....but then again, if it ain't broke, why fix it?

REally unless you're injecting insulin (like the pros....and it's a really dumb idea....think death by heart attack by 45), you're likely not going to experience the maximal anabolic benefits from trying to spike your insulin with corn sugar any way....if you really want have a look here:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/93/3/1168

There's only so much that insulin can do for you (us regular un-enhanced humans anyway)

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/1/E92?ijkey=47e44c327d05a3f8a61875e251a273d87e2cc3db&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

And let's flip to the bottom line of this study:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890

In summary, our results indicated that the consumption of a 1 g/kg CHO or CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h after completion of a resistance training bout significantly increased the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the completion of the exercise compared with a placebo. This suggests that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.

REally unless you're injecting insulin (like the pros....and it's a really dumb idea....think death by heart attack by 45), you're likely not going to experience the maximal anabolic benefits from trying to spike your insulin with corn sugar any way....if you really want have a look here:

There's only so much that insulin can do for you (us regular un-enhanced humans anyway)



Your not taking into account that we all have varying insulimenia.Is that the right word...I dont know what I mean is we all secrete different amounts of insulin for the same set amount of carbs.

This is why fat people who usually have insulin problems can bulk so easily.The insulin is highly anabolic but we also get the fat storage part that goes with it.

For hard gainers,it may be wiser to shoot for 100 gms dex/50 gms whey to TRY to ellicit an anabolic response from insulin.

For us fatties we could probably use less than the normal 50gms.:neener:

Mr. King is correct. Insulin blunts the release of growth hormone, so it is a double edge sword. Insulin can be anabolic in that it helps to drive amino acids (protein) into muscle cells, thus improving the rate of muscle recovery and growth from exercise. But insulin can be lipogenic in that chronically high levels increase body fat. In fact, spiking your insulin with dex will shut down liposis (fat burning) and shut down GH release.

Carbs PWO are important, but dex is not, and far from essential. It is what I consider a "shit carb," a simple carb with no nutritional value. In fact, it can be unhealthy in some by increasing their triglycerides, the thick plaque formed from excess sugar in the blood that loves to hang out on your arterial walls. Those that use it should do so wisely and in small amounts and should get their triglycerides checked as part of their annual checkup.

Another reason that I don't care for it is because it is corn sugar, bleached white with chlorine and still contains chlorine residue. No thanks. I can get my carbs from much better sources. Those articles that push dex: either the authors and/or the magazines have a financial interest in its sale, so I would not rely solely on those articles as an authority.

I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong post or not but I was talking about fat PWO rather than insulin, in his book, King actually suggests you stimulate insulin through carbs/protein.There wasn't any mention of what type of carbs just in general. But in SwoleCat's program (I'm not 100% positive, just slightly) he also suggests his clients take in large amounts of dextrose PWO (John is one of them) and they've had excellent results.

I'm in no way defending dex PWO but just referencing, when I get near my desired BF% I'll start to worry more about simple sugars and such.

I'm not sure if you quoted the wrong post or not but I was talking about fat PWO rather than insulin, in his book, King actually suggests you stimulate insulin through carbs/protein.There wasn't any mention of what type of carbs just in general. But in SwoleCat's program (I'm not 100% positive, just slightly) he also suggests his clients take in large amounts of dextrose PWO (John is one of them) and they've had excellent results.

I'm in no way defending dex PWO but just referencing, when I get near my desired BF% I'll start to worry more about simple sugars and such.



I too think that carbs around workout time can be beneficial and those that are getting “excellent results” with dex, good for them. I too get excellent results from glycogen, except there is one major difference with me: my glycogen is from healthy carbs. My healthy carbs break down into glycogen plenty fast enough, with the added benefit of not having to put shit in my body and IMO, Dex = shit.

Been there, done that with dex, it is old news for me. I used it for almost two years, saw my triglycerides elevate and noticed it was hindering my cutting, even though my diet was meticulous and I was only using moderate amounts of dex. I stopped using it this past summer and my triglycerides are back to normal levels, my BF has dropped and I have great recovery with using healthy sources of glycogen. So I guess I can say I get "great results” without dex.

And let's flip to the bottom line of this study:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/84/3/890


"In summary, our results indicated that the consumption of a 1 g/kg CHO or CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h after completion of a resistance training bout significantly increased the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the completion of the exercise compared with a placebo. This suggests that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen."


Interesting finding. I did not read the entire study, but I did not see them mention if any of the subjects were suffering from DOMS. I read in another study that muscles suffering from DOMS are highly resistant to glycogen uptake and synthesis. According to the study, the addition of fat PWO helps glycogen uptake and synthesis for muscles with DOMS.

Perhaps it is the total energy content that is most important for recovery depending on ones condition. That is why I always stress that the PPWO meal is most important and sugar alone is not the answer.