I've been reading about this combination lately and was wondering if anyone has ever used it and what kind of results they have got from them.

Here is a link to NOW's A/O version.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/argo.html

Been using arginine supplements for a couple of years now. It's actually best utilized with your post w/o shake to help get the nutrients to the damaged muscle tissue. It'd be much more cost effective to go with a bulk powder form (http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=1620) and measure your required amounts, instead of the capsules. DiArginine Malate doesn't have the God awful taste that straight arginine does.
It's also a nice way to bring out your vascularity come summer time if you're into that.

Hey Walt. Thanks. The bulk powder definitely seems like a better investment. I'll look into that.

By the way, did you ever get the e-mail I sent you? As we had talked about I was having trouble figuring out the best workout to go with my timing and new equipment. Just to let you know I have become much more efficient on the powertec power rack and ironmaster dumbells and my full body workouts are going great!

Back to the arginine real quick, so you wouldn't recommend it before the workout? I read a lot of reviews where people took it before their workouts to get a really nice pump.

Hey Walt. Thanks. The bulk powder definitely seems like a better investment. I'll look into that.

By the way, did you ever get the e-mail I sent you? As we had talked about I was having trouble figuring out the best workout to go with my timing and new equipment. Just to let you know I have become much more efficient on the powertec power rack and ironmaster dumbells and my full body workouts are going great!

Back to the arginine real quick, so you wouldn't recommend it before the workout? I read a lot of reviews where people took it before their workouts to get a really nice pump.
NO...I never got any email. It might have gotten caught in the the garbage mail filter though. I'll clean it up and you can resend if you'd like.
Good to hear that the rack and dumbbells are working out well. Are you doing the same full body routine each day, or are you splitting them into a few different workouts? (IE: A) Squats, Bench, Pull-ups, Tri's...etc. B) Deadlifts, Military Press, Incline DB Press, Bi's...etc)
As far as the arginine...this is one of those supplements that you'll hear from both sides of the fence on. The supplement companys that are pushing pre workout, are mostly also marketing that it gives you a great pump. It is going to give you a fantastic pump during your workout, but I have to admit that I've yet to read anything about the benefits of your arms blowing up twice their size. That doesn't mean that it doesn't benefit...I personally just haven't read anything to support it, other than manufacturers labels. I've pasted an article from Layne Norton below. Maybe it'll help...

Walt

Be in the know about NO
by Layne Norton
Wednesday, 29 June 2005

In recent years the popularity of NO boosters has skyrocketed. But are these supplements worthy of your money? Or are they all hype? Be in the kNOw about NO

Those of you who are supplement-savvy have undoubtedly heard of the products that claim to increase nitric oxide production, as they have been quite the rage of the supplement industry over the past year. Products that increase nitric oxide claim to have positive influences on body composition and recovery by increasing blood flow to skeletal muscle. When I first heard these claims I was very skeptical. It is all well and good to increase blood flow to skeletal muscle, but I had my doubts as to whether or not that would actually increase muscle cell uptake of the nutrients being delivered in the blood. In fact, for the past year I actually advised many people against spending money on NO products. Well new research from researchers at the University of Texas has made me eat my words. These researchers collected data on amino acid uptake kinetics and concluded that the rate limiting step of amino acid uptake into muscle tissue is NOT transport across the cellular membrane, but rather the transport of the amino acids through the blood and interstitial fluid(1). That means it is likely an increase in blood flow to skeletal muscle, coupled with an increase in blood amino acid concentrations may lead to an increase in amino acid uptake by the muscle cells. So the next series of questions I’m sure many of you are asking is; how exactly do these supplements increase nitric oxide output, how does nitric oxide increase blood flow to skeletal muscles, and how do I maximize the effectiveness of these supplements? Well don’t worry… I got ya covered.

Nitric oxide(NO) is synthesized from the amino acid l-arginine in the endothelium of blood vessels by an enzyme called Nitric Oxide Synthase (eNOS) which catalyzes the conversion of l-arginine to NO and Citrulline. Citrulline can be recycled to arginine by combining with aspartate and thus become an available substrate for eNOS again. Once produced, NO is a potent vasodilator, meaning that it acts to relax the smooth muscle cells of the blood vessels, which increases the diameter of the blood vessel and allows more blood to flow through that area. Imagine gripping a water hose tightly and turning water on. The flow of water would decrease through that area. If you relax your hands, the water flows through the hose faster. Think of the hose as your blood vessels, your hands as the smooth muscle, and the water as your blood (carrying nutrients in it). By relaxing the smooth muscle cells of the blood vessels, more nutrients (including amino acids) will be allowed to pass through that area and be made available for uptake by the skeletal muscle. In addition to being a potent vasodilator itself, NO also stimulates production of cyclic GMP (cGMP), another potent vasodilator.

It has been known for some time that exercise increases nitric oxide output and blood flow to the area exercised, but the significance of this increase in NO output has just begun to be unraveled(2,3). Some researchers believe that increased blood flow to skeletal muscles may be one of the means by which protein synthesis is increased post workout4. They cite that the increased blood flow only occurs in the area that is exercised, and that area is also the only place that protein synthesis increases after a workout. For example, if you workout quads, you feel a pump in your quads, not your hamstrings. Likewise the increase in protein synthesis occurs in your quads and not your hamstrings. If indeed vasodilatation of the blood vessels via NO output is an important mechanism by which protein synthesis increases post workout, then perhaps increasing nitric oxide output will have favorable results on recovery and body composition.

It is well established that arginine ingestion will increase NO output as will exercise(4). However the body is quite efficient at producing NO during exercise, it falls short of optimal NO levels by shooting itself in the foot so to speak. Allow me to elaborate on this statement; in addition to increasing NO output, exercise also increases the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) also known as free radicals(5,6,7). Free radicals reduce NO levels by “quenching” NO production. This means that ROS, such as superoxide, react with NO to form peroxynitrite species (PNS)(8). In addition to not promoting vasodilation, and reducing the effectiveness of nitric oxide, ROS and PNS can inhibit protein synthesis, and are potentially damaging to cells and also impair the effectiveness of insulin by disrupting insulin signaling(9,10,11). To combat ROS, one can ingest compounds that scavenge these species called anti-oxidants. Anti-oxidants that have been shown to reduce NO degredation include lipoic acid, vitamin E, vitamin C, grape seed polyphenols, selenium, and quercetin(12-20). In addition to Lipoic Acid being a free radical scavenger, it also increases the activity of eNOS15! Similarly, Vitamin C not only acts to increase NO output by scavenging ROS and stabilizing nitric oxide, it is also important in stabilizing and maintaining intracellular levels of tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4), a cofactor of eNOS(12,13). Folic acid will further increase the stabilization of BH4(21). Stabilizing BH4 assures that eNOS can convert arginine to NO at an optimal rate.

Reactive oxygen species also reduce NO bioavailability by stimulating the synthesis of asymmetric dimethylarginine (ADMA), a competitive inhibitor of eNOS(21). If ADMA levels are high, it can occupy the active site of the eNOS enzyme and prevent arginine from occupying that site, thus preventing NO synthesis. Therefore, it is important to make sure the ratio of arginine to ADMA is high, this can be achieved by supplementing with the aforementioned anti-oxidants along with arginine(22). Other compounds that may increase NO production or reduce NO degradation include vitamin B2, B3, omega-3’s (fish oil), coenzyme Q10, acetylcholine, and insulin(21-25).

OK, enough with the science… how should I use this stuff!?

Since there hasn’t been a direct study examining what combination of these nutrients is optimal, I can only provide my educated guess. So here is what I recommend to maximize your NO levels.

I would consume a post workout shake consisting of the following

-20-30g whey protein -30-50g dextrose -6-12g arginine

I would also consume a post workout anti-oxidant/vitamin cocktail consisting of the following

-lipoic acid, quercetin, vitamin C, and vitamin E.

-a B vitamin complex

-folic acid

-3g fish oil

You may also add in any of the aforementioned anti-oxidants if you wish. I wouldn’t supplement with more than 300mg of any one anti-oxidant and I wouldn’t consume more than 1200mg of total anti-oxidants as this will just be overkill.

Note that the shake contains whey and dextrose as this will illicit an insulin spike, and insulin will increase NO effectiveness.

Begin by dosing your arginine at 6g and increase it slowly until you can feel a better than normal pump consistently from this cocktail.

I've read that article before -- very good stuff.

Try as I might, I can't seem to find anything explaining why you shouldn't use arginine (or NO supplements in general) while cutting, although tons of people at bb.com seem to be of this mentality and I remember reading a couple of very good articles explaining why arginine on a caloric deficit wasn't particularly helpful.

That being said, I've personally found it useful while bulking. It definitely does provide a nice pump, and as Kino has already posted there are hidden benefits as well. I was taking bulk Arginine Alpha Keto Glutarate and Ornithine Alpha Keto Glutarate (3g and 1.5g respectively) pre-workout and 3g of arginine post-workout.

I've read a lot of things indicating that too much arginine isn't particularly good for you, and that 6g per day is a good "safe" dosage considering how prevalent it is in people's diets.

I definitely plan on returning to using it when I start bulking again.

That was a very good article Walt. Very informative and it really seems that arginine can be an very important facilitator in protein synthesis.

So I am wondering, is there really a need to take things like NO-explode when you could just hypothetically stack creatine and arginine? It seems like NO products are just everywhere nowadays. I wonder if when you really get down to it like Layne did, could your self created stack suffice?

That was a very good article Walt. Very informative and it really seems that arginine can be an very important facilitator in protein synthesis.

So I am wondering, is there really a need to take things like NO-explode when you could just hypothetically stack creatine and arginine? It seems like NO products are just everywhere nowadays. I wonder if when you really get down to it like Layne did, could your self created stack suffice?
Yes, you can easily mix up your own if you pick up the bulk powders (http://www.bulknutrition.com/?manufacturers_id=18).

My favorite PWO

25g BCAA
40g Whey Isolate
50g Dextrose
5g Creatine
10g Arginine
5g Citrulline

I'm pasting up my original question to Layne about this from about a year ago. I just wanted to put this up so that I could show that the only way to find out about this stuff is to ask. I'm definitly not the brightest bulb in the pack...:lol:

Well I thought I was done on this one, but might as well get everything in line once and for all.
OK...my post workout would contain 10g arginine/5g citrulline plus other ingredients of course.
I want to take another 5g of citrulline some other time during the day, for a total of 10g per day to keep carnosine levels elevated. I can drop the arginine on non training days...but on training days, should I be doing two doses of the arginine, or just the one? And if I'm going to be doing two doses, do I want them both to be 10g arginine/5g citrulline or can the arginine be a lower amount later (or earlier) in the day? Say 5g arginine/5g citrulline?
I know I must seem like a retard about this point, but when I was just using the arginine alone, I was simply doing 2 x 3.5-4g following the numbers on Beverly's Muscle Synergy. Now that I'm throwing the 10g of citrulline into the mix, I just want to know that I'm using the right ratios (yes, I know we discussed this already), and that I'm not coming up high or low on either. I guess I'm just wondering if 20g of arginine might be high, if I stick to the 2:1 (arginine/citrulline) ratio we discussed previously.
Please feel free to respond with the :bang: emoticon as the opener...lol.

Thanks again,

Walt

it's ok walt... as with anything... it's easy to overthink it. I would do one 10g arginine dose with your 5g citrulline... if you want to add another 5g citrulline during the day that is fine as well.

-Layne

Hmm, very interesting.:confused:

I have a couple bottles of those Arg/Orn caps from NOW and tried them out without much success, but then again, I was taking 3g arg pre and 3g post workout. Sounds like I need to up the dosage. I only tried them for a couple days since I'm cuttting. I'll give it another shot when I start to bulk in a couple weeks.