Am toying with the idea of going to a 3day split. (Mon-Wed-Fri). After some research it just gets more confusing. Some sites say do push/pull on same day, others say Push one day, pull the next. To add to the dilemma some say work your smallest muscles first, others say biggest first. No-where have I seen a classification of smallest to biggest muscles..and this wouldn't apply to compounds anyway right? So could you classify muscles into small, medium, large please. Also what is your idea of the most efficient 3day split? And ,if you don't mind, please clear up this push/pull thing. I've never done a split-tine in my life. Thank You. :d_smile:

I assume you are referring to a "push/pull, legs, arms" 3 day split. This split makes no sense IMO. It's universally agreed that the big compound exercises should be the foundation of a lifting routine. Yet this split shoves all of the good upper body compounds (bench, rows, chins etc) into one day! And then devotes an ENTIRE day to isolation arm exercises! This is ludicrous.

If you want to try a somewhat unorthodox split, you could do "chest/bis, legs/shoulders/abs, back/tris"

Perhaps the most common split (and the one you should probably start with) is "chest/tris, legs/shoulders/abs, back/bis."

It's only confusing if you are looking for the perfect system, instead of the right plan for you.

There is no right way ... push one day or the next. Both have advantages and disadvtanges. You should try both options ... maybe push-pull on same day for a month or so, then push and pull on separate days, etc.

Try working smaller muscles first. Then try working bigger muscles first.

Big muscles are the ones targeted by compound movements ... chest, back, shoulders, core, quads, glutes/hamstrings ... smaller muscles are wrists, biceps, triceps, calves, etc.

There is no most efficient three-day split ... that's looking too narrowly. You want to look for the most efficient ROUTINE over time ... and that's going to be the routine that covers ALL of the splits through periodization. So pick one and go with it, then pick the next, etc.

If you want to really learn how to put routines together, look into Get Buffed! by Ian King. It's a great guide to designing routines without having to become a personal trainer to understand it all.

Jeremy




Am toying with the idea of going to a 3day split. (Mon-Wed-Fri). After some research it just gets more confusing. Some sites say do push/pull on same day, others say Push one day, pull the next. To add to the dilemma some say work your smallest muscles first, others say biggest first. No-where have I seen a classification of smallest to biggest muscles..and this wouldn't apply to compounds anyway right? So could you classify muscles into small, medium, large please. Also what is your idea of the most efficient 3day split? And ,if you don't mind, please clear up this push/pull thing. I've never done a split-tine in my life. Thank You. :d_smile:

Newskin...I wasn't referring to ANY particular routine. Just going by what I've seen on some sites. Jeremy, thank you.

I wasn't saying any paticular split was best, just that any 3 day split which puts the majority of critical compound upper body lifts into one day is poorly designed.

I agree with NewSkin.

I would either make it into a full body routine or I would seperate the big lifts, keeping in mind movements and, thus, recovery.

Try working smaller muscles first.





Jeremy


I totally disagree with this method. By exhausting smaller muscles first, you simply wouldn't have the strength to work the larger ones efficiently.

I totally disagree with this method. By exhausting smaller muscles first, you simply wouldn't have the strength to work the larger ones efficiently.

I was kinda thinkin' the same thing. I agree with experimentation to see what works, but working triceps prior to say, bench press will totally ruin your chest workout. Same thing with doing biceps before back.

I was kinda thinkin' the same thing. I agree with experimentation to see what works, but working triceps prior to say, bench press will totally ruin your chest workout. Same thing with doing biceps before back.


That's what I gotta think! :tu:

Interesting theories, but there are plenty of very good precedents for using pre-exhaustion. Ian King is one of the top strength coaches in the world and he uses these in his routines.

Other examples:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/zaino11.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/plateau.htm#pre
http://www.naturalstrength.com/features/detail2.asp?AuthorID=169&ArticleID=107

There are, of course, mixed ideas about what this is. The most common will be that you pre-exhaust your major muscle and then do the compound movement so it "fails" in coincidence with the smaller, weaker muscles.

The other idea that I've used quite successfully is to warm up the smaller muscles before going into the workout. For example, I don't toast and annihilate my triceps, but instead I do a few sets to warm them up, then work on my shoulder joint, then I move into the bench press movement.

A similar concept works here as does antagonist/agonist pairs. You may be familiar with the research that when you work an opposing muscle group you can experience a brief increase in strength as opposed to working the muscle by itself ... in other words, if you do rows and bench presses on the same day, you may receive a slight strength benefit as opposed to doing rows one day and bench presses the next.

A similar function happens with the isolation first. The assumption and narrow thinking is that this is only physiological and therefore don't exhaust these "weak links." However, the entire movement is also neurological and relates to your CNS and coordination. Doing the isolation movements creates a response from the CNS and can actually help break through plateaus for strength and size when integrated into a workout. The stimulus of changing the workout to pre-load the triceps and shoulders for a bench press, for example, can (a) improve the shoulder joint stability during the exercise, allowing for more isolation of load on the chest and (b) improve the neurological coordination of the triceps with the entire movement, again taking out inefficiencies where load is lost to stabilization and instead focus more load on the target muscle, in this case, the pectoralis.

So, I agree with both of you - it appears it isn't working for you, so definitely toss it. However, it works for a lot of athletes and bodybuilders so someone new reading this thread should at least give it a try and diarize the results to see if it is effective in their own arsenal as it has been for others.

Jeremy
That's what I gotta think! :tu:

Interesting theories, but there are plenty of very good precedents for using pre-exhaustion. Ian King is one of the top strength coaches in the world and he uses these in his routines.

Other examples:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/zaino11.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/plateau.htm#pre
http://www.naturalstrength.com/features/detail2.asp?AuthorID=169&ArticleID=107

There are, of course, mixed ideas about what this is. The most common will be that you pre-exhaust your major muscle and then do the compound movement so it "fails" in coincidence with the smaller, weaker muscles.

The other idea that I've used quite successfully is to warm up the smaller muscles before going into the workout. For example, I don't toast and annihilate my triceps, but instead I do a few sets to warm them up, then work on my shoulder joint, then I move into the bench press movement.

A similar concept works here as does antagonist/agonist pairs. You may be familiar with the research that when you work an opposing muscle group you can experience a brief increase in strength as opposed to working the muscle by itself ... in other words, if you do rows and bench presses on the same day, you may receive a slight strength benefit as opposed to doing rows one day and bench presses the next.

A similar function happens with the isolation first. The assumption and narrow thinking is that this is only physiological and therefore don't exhaust these "weak links." However, the entire movement is also neurological and relates to your CNS and coordination. Doing the isolation movements creates a response from the CNS and can actually help break through plateaus for strength and size when integrated into a workout. The stimulus of changing the workout to pre-load the triceps and shoulders for a bench press, for example, can (a) improve the shoulder joint stability during the exercise, allowing for more isolation of load on the chest and (b) improve the neurological coordination of the triceps with the entire movement, again taking out inefficiencies where load is lost to stabilization and instead focus more load on the target muscle, in this case, the pectoralis.

So, I agree with both of you - it appears it isn't working for you, so definitely toss it. However, it works for a lot of athletes and bodybuilders so someone new reading this thread should at least give it a try and diarize the results to see if it is effective in their own arsenal as it has been for others.

Jeremy


Jeremy - I understand and agree somewhat with the "warm up" technique but my understanding was (and excuse me if I was wrong) you were suggesting working the smaller group to failure then continuing on to the larger group. I believe that would significantly effect the ability to work that particular area.

Interesting theories, but there are plenty of very good precedents for using pre-exhaustion. Ian King is one of the top strength coaches in the world and he uses these in his routines.

Other examples:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/zaino11.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/plateau.htm#pre
http://www.naturalstrength.com/features/detail2.asp?AuthorID=169&ArticleID=107

There are, of course, mixed ideas about what this is. The most common will be that you pre-exhaust your major muscle and then do the compound movement so it "fails" in coincidence with the smaller, weaker muscles.

The other idea that I've used quite successfully is to warm up the smaller muscles before going into the workout. For example, I don't toast and annihilate my triceps, but instead I do a few sets to warm them up, then work on my shoulder joint, then I move into the bench press movement.

A similar concept works here as does antagonist/agonist pairs. You may be familiar with the research that when you work an opposing muscle group you can experience a brief increase in strength as opposed to working the muscle by itself ... in other words, if you do rows and bench presses on the same day, you may receive a slight strength benefit as opposed to doing rows one day and bench presses the next.

A similar function happens with the isolation first. The assumption and narrow thinking is that this is only physiological and therefore don't exhaust these "weak links." However, the entire movement is also neurological and relates to your CNS and coordination. Doing the isolation movements creates a response from the CNS and can actually help break through plateaus for strength and size when integrated into a workout. The stimulus of changing the workout to pre-load the triceps and shoulders for a bench press, for example, can (a) improve the shoulder joint stability during the exercise, allowing for more isolation of load on the chest and (b) improve the neurological coordination of the triceps with the entire movement, again taking out inefficiencies where load is lost to stabilization and instead focus more load on the target muscle, in this case, the pectoralis.

So, I agree with both of you - it appears it isn't working for you, so definitely toss it. However, it works for a lot of athletes and bodybuilders so someone new reading this thread should at least give it a try and diarize the results to see if it is effective in their own arsenal as it has been for others.

Jeremy

Very interesting stuff as usual Jeremy! I know what you mean. Sometimes I get some impressive lifts in after preloading the blood into the muscles I'm gonna use. For some reason I can always dip like a champ after back for example (even though those aren't the exact muscles they get some work on a big back day.)

I was kinda thinkin' the same thing. I agree with experimentation to see what works, but working triceps prior to say, bench press will totally ruin your chest workout. Same thing with doing biceps before back.

I don't know. I've got my bench 1 RM after exhausting my anterior deltoids on one of those Hammer Strength machines. I didn't choose or plan to do it that way, it's something my trainer did - we finished the deltoid set and he says "hey it's been a month let's max out your bench". So I don't know if he was up to anything there, or just curious what would happen to my bench if he shot out my delts first.

We do a lot of small muscle exhaustion early in upper workouts, although I never thought of it that way. My trainer likes to say "let's see what you can do without these today" as we do a high rep set, usually with more weight than previously.

in other words, if you do rows and bench presses on the same day, you may receive a slight strength benefit as opposed to doing rows one day and bench presses the next.

So if you wanted to find the antagonist of squats it's something like hamstring curls and crunches? I have a squat challenge coming on Wednesday and I have one more squat workout (tonight) to mess around with.

The hip-dominant deadlift is often paired with the quad-dominant squat as an antagonist. So, perhaps, a stiff-legged deadlift might work.

The hip-dominant deadlift is often paired with the quad-dominant squat as an antagonist. So, perhaps, a stiff-legged deadlift might work.

Now you tell me - I just finished squatting and I did leg curls and decline situps, which, I must say did not have much beneficial effect on the squats.

I tend to do single leg dumbell (and weight vest) versions of the stiff and straight leg deadlifts, and usually on some destabilized surface. (Although I have done the two leg barbell versions as well recently). Do you think the one leg unstable flavors would work as well?

I made this post because I was just wondering what happens to the timestamps on the posts after the time change, and it occurs on the same page as a post I made just before it.