I'm in the non-spiking camp. I go for an insulin release but not an insulin surge.

This is not a spike versus no spike debate....save it for a different thread.

What are the non-spikers using? Just curious?

Me....

Whey
Oats (usually ground into oat flour)
Half a banana (for taste mostly and I seem to get a bit of a boost)
Strawberries or blueberries (for antioxidents and energy)
Skim Milk....

Here's an interesting study done on milk:
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Milk%20Final.pdf

Milk apparantly has an interesting duality....in that it's low GI but a rather high Insulinaemic Index ( II ). Something to do with it's unique complex of amino acids (mostly BCAA's) and carbs and glucose working synergystically together.

Look at the chart that compares the predicted results versus the expected. ~ a 5 fold increase in predicted versus actual tested. Milk is very good PWO and especially on a bulk.

The other interesting note was that all milk products except cheese were insulin raising. So you may want to note that in timing when you drink or eat your dairy. Highly anabolic stuff.


So in other words....SOME low GI foods are not as linear as we once thought in terms of their insulin response in the body. That's a pretty far reaching thought....

Interesting stuff man. I've been suspecting lately that milk products are pretty misunderstood as far as how they are processed by the body, and I'm starting to rethink my assumption that early on, before I switched to water PWO, the insane progress I was seeing was merely a result of "newbie gains"...maybe not.

Interesting stuff man. I've been suspecting lately that milk products are pretty misunderstood as far as how they are processed by the body, and I'm starting to rethink my assumption that early on, before I switched to water PWO, the insane progress I was seeing was merely a result of "newbie gains"...maybe not.

Yeah, it's funny....everyone always spouts off the same old song and dance....

"I heard..."
" Don't have milk because it's low GI so it's bad post-workout"
" Don't have milk PWO because the casein slows down digestion"
Problem is they heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who....

Thing is milk is a unique combination of whey, casein, BCAA's, and lactose (the lactose is broken down first into half galactose and half glucose....the fact that the body has to further break down the galactose in the liver to glucose first is what makes it low GI). Everyone sees low GI and made a lot of assumptions about milk....missing the fact that it is rather high on the insulin index (II).

The body splits up the different fractions so that the whey continues on giving you immediate protein recovery. The casein doesn't "hold things up" like everyone thinks and gives you a slower release of protein for recovery over the long haul. Perfect PWO I say :tu:

Milk proteins, independent of carbs, will cause a marked increase in insulin levels. I mentioned this in another thread.

Oats (usually ground into oat flour)


What do you use to ground your oats and what amount do you use?

What do you use to ground your oats and what amount do you use?

I like to use one of those mini coffee bean grinders. Becomes a fine powder in a matter of seconds.

How about trying something new PWO... NO PWO shake! That's right. Just down some bcaa's, Glutamine, maybe some citrulline malate, creatine (I like Beverly's Creatine Select) some anti-oxidants, then wait an hour until they do their job, and follow it up with a whole food meal consisting of lean meat, a complex carb source and some fats. This method is extremely effective if you train in the morning, while on a lean mass gain cycle.

Depends on what your goals are at the time as to whether or not you want dairy products in your nutritional approach. For those on a cutting cycle, dairy is a plain-old no-no. It is no secret that milk products cause subcutaneous water and fat retention, preventing skin from thinning out and tightening against your lean mass. For some, this is more of a problem than it is for others. Me, personally? Milk products cause my skin to thicken quickly and very noticeably. I enjoy maintaining a tight, vascular, lean look because it really shows of what I've done thus far. To do this, I have to avoid dairy for the most part.

On training days, the most dairy I ever have is a cup of lowfat, low sugar yogurt in the morning and 1/2 a tablespoon of butter in the small portion of noodles I have with dinner. That's the absolute most I can have - as soon as I throw even a single glass of milk into the mix, things go awry. You can use dairy if you like, but if you're cutting, I highly suggest you avoid it and see how you look without it - you can't measure dairy's effects on your body with a scale or calipers or a personal trainer. You can only measure it in the mirror.

-R

For those on a cutting cycle, dairy is a plain-old no-no. It is no secret that milk products cause subcutaneous water and fat retention, preventing skin from thinning out and tightening against your lean mass. -R
I'll play ignorant on this one...but carbs in general cause the body to hold water. Milk = Carbs Any chance that this could be what's causing the water retention, and not the dairy products?

I'll play ignorant on this one...but carbs in general cause the body to hold water. Milk = Carbs Any chance that this could be what's causing the water retention, and not the dairy products?

I won't argue with that... I am carb sensitive. I'm sure it's related to that somehow. I'm very careful to strategically place my carbohydrate intake at specific times of the day so as to utilize those carbs immediately for energy and glycogen replenishment. It's my belief that this minimizes my reaction to carbohydrate sensitivity.

I've had four highly successful personal trainers (Swolecat among them, whom you all know I trust a great deal) either tell me these things about dairy and/or agree with my assessment of dairy products.

Pursuant to this, I have specifically experimented with milk to find out - mainly because there are few things in life I enjoy more than a practically frozen, very cold glass of milk (throw some Oreos in the mix and the only thing better is sex). My personal threshold for milk is extremely low - it appears to be between 8~16 ozs. in 24 hours - and even that little bit appears to obscure vascularity significantly in my body. I don't know why - I don't care why - I just know that if I want my skin to maintain that "paper thin" look, I have to stay off the milk/dairy. When I let dairy slip back into the diet, I see it in the mirror.

I have a portion of al dente noodles just about every day with my dinner... it gets my pasta fix in and one would think that's a no-no, but as long as I keep the meal ratios to that which Swolecat sets for me, I have no problems with just about every other form of carbohydrates - dairy seems to be an extreme sensitivity for me. For others, it may not be that way... I find it best left out of my diet.

-R

Interesting... :confused:

I like to use one of those mini coffee bean grinders. Becomes a fine powder in a matter of seconds.

How about trying something new PWO... NO PWO shake! That's right. Just down some bcaa's, Glutamine, maybe some citrulline malate, creatine (I like Beverly's Creatine Select) some anti-oxidants, then wait an hour until they do their job, and follow it up with a whole food meal consisting of lean meat, a complex carb source and some fats. This method is extremely effective if you train in the morning, while on a lean mass gain cycle.


AAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:

AAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...This would be nearly the exact route that contributed to my $150 per month supplement grocery bill. But unless you're using a HUGE straw and snorting all of those ingredients, it's still a PWO shake...with the BCAA's filling the protein role, and the glutamine for your carbs.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...This would be nearly the exact route that contributed to my $150 per month supplement grocery bill. But unless you're using a HUGE straw and snorting all of those ingredients, it's still a PWO shake...with the BCAA's filling the protein role, and the glutamine for your carbs.



Again, AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:
For the record, my monthly supplement bill is right up there. :whistle:

Again, AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!! :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek: :d_eek:
For the record, my monthly supplement bill is right up there. :whistle:

My monthly supplement bill is $0.00. :D

My monthly supplement bill is $0.00. :D


How the hell do you swing that?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...This would be nearly the exact route that contributed to my $150 per month supplement grocery bill. But unless you're using a HUGE straw and snorting all of those ingredients, it's still a PWO shake...with the BCAA's filling the protein role, and the glutamine for your carbs.

Exactly. But, people throw all or most of the supps I listed INTO their PWO protein powder, malto, dex, and whatever. A waste of money, unless you include this shake as one of your daily meals. In that instance, it would be better to do on a cutting, or pre-contest phase. Sans the dex of course ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...This would be nearly the exact route that contributed to my $150 per month supplement grocery bill. But unless you're using a HUGE straw and snorting all of those ingredients, it's still a PWO shake...with the BCAA's filling the protein role, and the glutamine for your carbs.

First time responding to my own post. :lol: I still have about a 2 month supply of ingredients for the that recipe...more than that of some. I will admit that it's the most potent PWO that I've ever used. Cept, I add 10g of arginine to the mix. :D

How the hell do you swing that?

Quite simply. I don't use any supplements. My PWO meal is usually F/F turkey hot dogs on light white bread with F/F cheese and ketchup/mustard. I don't use Glutamine, Creatine, etc. And I have like 8 lbs. of dextrose left that I bought last year, but I don't use that either.

I actually did just get fish oil capsules for like $8 last week, so I guess you could say I spend $3-4/mo. However, I bought those due to a suggestion from my doctor, not really for fitness reasons, although I know it may offer some.

And as for this thread... I don't think milk is so bad PWO myself, or in general at all. I stopped worrying about what's ideal PWO a long time ago. I've tried it all and have seen little to no difference no matter what I consume PWO. And, I used to be anti-milk after reading what some professionals thought, but I spoke too soon (for myself at least) as taking it out of my diet did nothing for me. I don't drink a lot of it, but I have no problem whatsoever when I do.

EDIT: When I was at my biggest, ever, about 15-20 pounds more than I am now, my PWO meal was a whey protein shake blended with ice and milk with a bowl of oatmeal and often a banana.

It is no secret that milk products cause subcutaneous water and fat retention, preventing skin from thinning out and tightening against your lean mass.

That was a secret to me. How is this so. Can you offer up any documents to back this up? I'm not calling you out, I'd just like to learn more.

I know excess sodium for a fact will draw water into the cell and cause retention (but when used correctly can maintain vascularity) but dairy?

Other than milk brings more calories than water (okay a lot more) how does it smooth a person out????

It really hasn't been detrimental to my bulk....which is on the slow but steady rate, still got my abs :tu: %bf has gone up very little and my waistline is holding at 30.5". I'm up from 138 to 141 over a good several weeks....baby steps but I'm in no rush and have no contest in my near future ;)

I think your mileage might vary.... Maybe (if you are as carbo- sensitive as you say) spiking with dex and over-releasing insulin is causing more harm than good (fat retention)....just a thought (and that's assuming you're using dex....I don't really know). Sounds like with the help of your trainers that you know yourself best and obviously your advice wouldn't necessarily apply to everyone. Same goes for my suggestion to use milk. It's just a suggestion but it's backed by a pretty decent paper....it's only one study but a darn good one.

Also, those who are lactose intolerant can totally disregard the dairy :p
(bloating, suxs)

================================================

I like to use one of those mini coffee bean grinders. Becomes a fine powder in a matter of seconds.

How about trying something new PWO... NO PWO shake! That's right. Just down some bcaa's, Glutamine, maybe some citrulline malate, creatine (I like Beverly's Creatine Select) some anti-oxidants, then wait an hour until they do their job, and follow it up with a whole food meal consisting of lean meat, a complex carb source and some fats. This method is extremely effective if you train in the morning, while on a lean mass gain cycle.
__________________

I use a food processor and do up a big batch of oat flour. I grind it, sift it, grind it, sift it and then grind it again. It doesn't take too long. That way, I can use it for other stuff: like homemade protein bars, breading fish, oat pancakes, waffles etc...


As for how much to include in your shake, well that's entirely dependant on your LBM and requirements....that's totally an individual thing.

PWO:

~0.5 * LBM carbs
~.25 - .33 * LBM protein

That's what I go by.

No PWO shake, interesting idea Mastover. You've been at it a while I gather and you actually compete so I think I'll have to give this some serious thought.

My PWO shake protocol has been pretty good....but I'm always willing to try new stuff out....it'd be boring if I always kept it the same....I'd probably stall as well.

Also my PWO shake always goes towards my daily counts, so in essence, it's a meal.

What's citrulline malate and what's it's purpose?


AAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Relax Doordude :lol: If you got something going that works for you, why change it now? It's only when things stall that you need to change it up a bit. Just keep these ideas in your back pocket for when you need them. ;)

Quite simply. I don't use any supplements. My PWO meal is usually F/F turkey hot dogs on light white bread with F/F cheese and ketchup/mustard. I don't use Glutamine, Creatine, etc. And I have like 8 lbs. of dextrose left that I bought last year, but I don't use that either.

I actually did just get fish oil capsules for like $8 last week, so I guess you could say I spend $3-4/mo. However, I bought those due to a suggestion from my doctor, not really for fitness reasons, although I know it may offer some.

And as for this thread... I don't think milk is so bad PWO myself, or in general at all. I stopped worrying about what's ideal PWO a long time ago. I've tried it all and have seen little to no difference no matter what I consume PWO. And, I used to be anti-milk after reading what some professionals thought, but I spoke too soon (for myself at least) as taking it out of my diet did nothing for me. I don't drink a lot of it, but I have no problem whatsoever when I do.


Sounds good. As i've said, prior to me joining this forum I had no idea what a PWO drink was. After reading all the mumbo-jumbo about it I figured it was the only way to go. Whether or not i'm benefiting from it is unknown. I do however KNOW i've made some nice gains in the past 7 months. I've always used a protein supplement while training but even that has changed. The old school mainstay was egg protein. None of this whey, casein shit. I suppose i'm an easy mark for the advertisers. Either way, I don't plan on changing anything soon. My gains keep coming so it seems worth a few dollars to me at this point. :tu:

That was a secret to me. How is this so. Can you offer up any documents to back this up? I'm not calling you out, I'd just like to learn more.

Nope. I can't offer a single concrete shred of evidence other than my own empirical observations and the fact that I've had several trainers, one of whom specializes in competition preparation, concur with my assessment. Perhaps Swolecat will come by this post and enlighten me as to why exactly this is the case...

-R

I love milk. Especially FF raw milk. It has all kinds of beneficial bacteria and promotes a healthy GI tract. As for the stuff at the grocery store it is processed and denatured beyond recognition compared to the real thing. We had a source for the real thing then we moved... So now I drink the crap at the grocery store just cause it tastes good with my protein powder. There's a whole world of knowledge available on this matter...
http://www.realmilk.com/

http://www.1fast400.com/i70_Citrulline_Malate.html

Gordo, the above link should answer your queries regarding citrulline.

As for milk, I don't consume dairy products, and haven't done so in 10 years or maybe longer. Most of us are either lactose intolerant, or have allergies to dairy products.... or both. When I used to drink milk, I did carry higher levels of bodyfat, and always retained that "filmy layer" under the skin when I dieted down for competition. I no longer suffer from this problem, plus I've never felt healthier since giving up the dairy. Competitors who do consume dairy products, will eliminate it's usage during a pre-contest phase. Lactose is a suger, and sugars are usually a no-no the last 4-6 weeks out.

Well that does make sense somewhat there Mastover. Can't say I totally disagree but would say that most people should use some discretion when using dairy. Like everything, you can 'OD on it. Other than skim milk PWO and CC at night that's about the sum total of my dairy. Totally understand the logic behind limiting or eliminating lactose on a cut or pre-contest. Mind you, my parameters are a little looser since I'm just a recreational bb and have zero aspirations to compete. That said, even bulking I can't bring myself to have a decadent cheat. The worst I've done is 2 TB of Low fat frozen yogurt...I'm a wuss :D

Come to think of it, when I was cutting...I was off milk completely. Still had SF/FF yogurt here and there but that was about it (didn't think of that till now :whistle: ).

What kind of protein do you use if not whey? Or by dairy you mean traditional milk, cottage cheese (I guess all cheese), yogurts, icecream (that'd probably be a no-no any time ;) ) and whatever the heck else they make from milk.

Lab isolated whey and casein is okay?


Thanks for the link on the citrulline Malate....I'm checking it out now :tu:

Well that does make sense somewhat there Mastover. Can't say I totally disagree but would say that most people should use some discretion when using dairy. Like everything, you can 'OD on it. Other than skim milk PWO and CC at night that's about the sum total of my dairy. Totally understand the logic behind limiting or eliminating lactose on a cut or pre-contest. Mind you, my parameters are a little looser since I'm just a recreational bb and have zero aspirations to compete. That said, even bulking I can't bring myself to have a decadent cheat. The worst I've done is 2 TB of Low fat frozen yogurt...I'm a wuss :D

Come to think of it, when I was cutting...I was off milk completely. Still had SF/FF yogurt here and there but that was about it (didn't think of that till now :whistle: ).

What kind of protein do you use if not whey? Or by dairy you mean traditional milk, cottage cheese (I guess all cheese), yogurts, icecream (that'd probably be a no-no any time ;) ) and whatever the heck else they make from milk.

Lab isolated whey and casein is okay?


Thanks for the link on the citrulline Malate....I'm checking it out now :tu:

I cannot tolerate any milk, cottage cheese, certain cheeses, ice cream, and protein powders which have high levels of whey concentrates. There are also some whey isolates which I cannot tolerate. The only proteins I am able to utilize and thrive on are Muscle Milk and their Evo Pro along with Dorian Yate's Approved line in the off season. Pre-contest I switch over totally to Beverly's proteins.

I try to maintain most of my protein requirements through whole foods, such as lean meats (red meat also) and eggs.

Mastover,

I love you're natural approach! I wish you could try raw milk. It's a whole different animal from the pasturized stuff at the grocery store! I'd like to see how it affected you since you can't tolerate the adulterated commercial version. (most people have adverse effects from pasturized, chemically treated milk IMO, whether they recognize it or not)

I know excess sodium for a fact will draw water into the cell and cause retention (but when used correctly can maintain vascularity) but dairy?


Gordo--

I, too, am under the impression that excess sodium will "draw water and cause retention", but what do you mean by "when used correctly can maintain vascularity?" Thanks!

my take on the milk issue is this, and this first part came from my trainer in 2003 when I was leaning out for competition... he said that milk will cause a layer of film to form between your muscles and your skin, hense the loss of vascularity and definition... this second part is personal experience... while I'm not lactose intolerant I do have a reaction to too much dairy.. I break out... I have gone completely off dairy and noticed that, while I don't ever get completely clear of acne I did clear up a LOT... while at my mother-in-laws a few months back I thought I'd test the theory and had a full glass of milk (14 oz glass) and the next week I did notice more acne :( a LOT more acne :mad: so I stay clear of most dairy... I'll throw a little bit of shredded low fat, mozzarella on my eggs now and then, but no more than a tablespoon full and only now and then, not every day.

oh and I don't have any concrete evidence that either of these idea's hold true other than personal experience *shrug*

my take on the milk issue is this, and this first part came from my trainer in 2003 when I was leaning out for competition... he said that milk will cause a layer of film to form between your muscles and your skin, hense the loss of vascularity and definition... this second part is personal experience... while I'm not lactose intolerant I do have a reaction to too much dairy.. I break out... I have gone completely off dairy and noticed that, while I don't ever get completely clear of acne I did clear up a LOT... while at my mother-in-laws a few months back I thought I'd test the theory and had a full glass of milk (14 oz glass) and the next week I did notice more acne :( a LOT more acne :mad: so I stay clear of most dairy... I'll throw a little bit of shredded low fat, mozzarella on my eggs now and then, but no more than a tablespoon full and only now and then, not every day.

oh and I don't have any concrete evidence that either of these idea's hold true other than personal experience *shrug*


I know it's anecdotal....but I would agree with you. I've noticed the same issue....there's an unscientific correlation between acne flair ups and increased dairy consumption.

So I balance the 2.

Bulking...increase dairy....accept acne
cutting....reduce dairy....acne seems to go down ('course my overall fat intake is lower too so I can't postively say it's one thing or the other).

It could be the type of dairy.... Travis is going to jump on this ;) )

Supermarket dairy is loaded with hormones and antibiotics and who-knows-what, this "likely" stimulates acne flairs as opposed to truely organic dairy.

Well I was talking more about from bodybuilding contest prep type stuff (aldosterone manipulation):

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drjoe3.htm

We want plasma to be attracted to the inside of the cell but it won't happen by just increasing potassium, it will be because we have the right balance of sodium and potassium. The goal should be to simply maintain the "normal," stable environment that would have 55-65% of the fluid there anyway. Just as big a factor, however, is sodium's role in blood volume. Deficiencies in sodium will lead to a drop in blood pressure which means plasma (water) has been pushed out of the vascular system.

If it's not in your blood vessels, it's around them interstitially which means subcutaneously. That, of course, means SMOOTH! This will then start a chain reaction that will take days to remedy. When sodium is dropped from the diet, your kidneys will be influenced immediately by the hormone Aldosterone to conserve sodium from being excreted and remember; water follows solutes. If sodium is being resorbed, then water will be as well. You retain water and with the lower blood pressure, it's all under your skin instead of in your vascular system.

Gordo--

I, too, am under the impression that excess sodium will "draw water and cause retention", but what do you mean by "when used correctly can maintain vascularity?" Thanks!

Qoute from the Book "The New Glucose Revolution"

Milk(GI value of 31)
Lactose, the sugar occurring natural in milk, is a disaccharide that must be digested into it's component sugars before absorption. The two sugars that result, glucose and galactose, complete with each other for absorption. This slows down absorption and lowers the GI value. The presence of protein and fat in milk also lowers the GI value.

Acutual...using the the normal serving size of 8oz. of course if you use more then that...you change the GI load..which is actual more important then the GI value.. So to get the GI value and load of anything you need to use the serving amount on the container..if you don't you up these values..
That is why pasta can be used on a GI diet.. but you have to use the 1/2-1 cup serving size..

How about trying 1/2 milk and 1/2 water ? this would lower the GI ratings.. and still give you some of the thickness of milk..

Also Fat lowers the GI of food.. so Skim isn't always the best idea unless your worried about fat intake..

Drinking Lemon water with your food meal lowers the GI of the food...

Letting those baked or mashed potato's cool before eating..lowers the GI ..


AND YES I"M ON THE GI DIET :)

Well I was talking more about from bodybuilding contest prep type stuff (aldosterone manipulation):

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drjoe3.htm

Gordo--

Wow - really interesting article; thanks for responding to my question. It seems to be a very complex matter, huh?

Well I was talking more about from bodybuilding contest prep type stuff (aldosterone manipulation):

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drjoe3.htm
You can pretty much take Klemczewski's word as gospel. :nod:

It could be the type of dairy.... Travis is going to jump on this ;) )

Supermarket dairy is loaded with homones and atibiotics and who knows what and "likely" stimulates acne fairs as opposed to truely organic dairy.


:lol: :lol: :lol: I guess this is where I should go off on factory farming and the state of commercial dairies, but I'll spare this thread...:lol: :lol: :lol:

All I can say is try some good raw milk from healthy cows and see what benefits you can accrue. It is incredible stuff, from CLA content, to live good bacteria to populate your GI tract, and real vitamins and good fats. You can hook up with an actual farmer by following the real milk link in my sig. Or PM me for some contacts.

I quit drinking the supermarket stuff and feel pretty darn good. I do use a little ultra pastruized :( heavy cream (for whipped cream :drool: and a little in water for PWO shakes) though because I love that stuff and have no access to the real thing here on the island.

I have to use lots of things I don't think are that good because of where I live, but that's the real world. You do the best you can...