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View Full Version : Micellar Casein vs Calcium Caseinates for night time shake?


dafish721
Sat, September 17th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I was going to put in my order for more whey protein, creatine, etc at ATWhey and was going to either get some Calcium Caseinates powder or some Micellar Casein powder for my night shake. Is one better or more appropriate than the other. I tried cottage cheese but I can't stand the taste no matter what I put in with it. I sometimes will eat 3ozs of beef jerkey at night instead of a whey shake (which I was told I shouldn't use whey at night). Any recommendations? TIA

Specialbear
Sat, September 17th, 2005, 04:12 PM
to be honest, in the end it wont matter too much. if u dont mind paying more, go for the miscellar

chris mason
Sat, September 17th, 2005, 10:06 PM
Either form will work well. I don't buy into the hype about micellar casein.

Laura
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 12:50 AM
I was going to put in my order for more whey protein, creatine, etc at ATWhey and was going to either get some Calcium Caseinates powder or some Micellar Casein powder for my night shake. Is one better or more appropriate than the other. I tried cottage cheese but I can't stand the taste no matter what I put in with it. I sometimes will eat 3ozs of beef jerkey at night instead of a whey shake (which I was told I shouldn't use whey at night). Any recommendations? TIA



Drop me a line at wheystation@aol.com with your name and addy and I will send you the nutritional data and some samples of each.



Laura

Kino
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 07:15 AM
On one of the other boards that I frequent the topic of Off Season proteins came up. A large percentage of the members over there are Natural Bodybuilding Pros...These are the people that have to be concerned with every little detail of their nutrition and physiques because coming in at anything less than 110% makes the difference between 1st place, and not showing at all. (Stay with me here, because I'm getting to something to think about...) So with some of the seasons shows out of the way the protein topic was thrown on the table. What types of proteins did the other members use during the off season? This was mainly going in the direction of whey isolates vs (please don't have a heart attack over this) whey concentrates. The majority...said they switch over to concentrates in the off season for the cost savings. As long as there were no digestive problems with using a good concentrate, they chose to go that route rather than paying premium prices for an isolate. Yeah...I know, the isolates are only a few dollars more in some cases...But what I'm getting at here is that we've got people brand new to training...even those who have been training for some period of time all buying into "I have to use this, because if I don't, I won't get the results I'm after" and "All of the bodybuilders I see in the magazines use XYZ brand, so I have to use that too" :rolleyes: REALITY CHECK...If the people who are taking the Overall in their shows are using different types of what would most likely be considered by the majority of weight training members in here as less than optimal proteins...why are we so concerned about it? :confused:
Just something to consider...

chris mason
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 12:41 PM
On one of the other boards that I frequent the topic of Off Season proteins came up. A large percentage of the members over there are Natural Bodybuilding Pros...These are the people that have to be concerned with every little detail of their nutrition and physiques because coming in at anything less than 110% makes the difference between 1st place, and not showing at all. (Stay with me here, because I'm getting to something to think about...) So with some of the seasons shows out of the way the protein topic was thrown on the table. What types of proteins did the other members use during the off season? This was mainly going in the direction of whey isolates vs (please don't have a heart attack over this) whey concentrates. The majority...said they switch over to concentrates in the off season for the cost savings. As long as there were no digestive problems with using a good concentrate, they chose to go that route rather than paying premium prices for an isolate. Yeah...I know, the isolates are only a few dollars more in some cases...But what I'm getting at here is that we've got people brand new to training...even those who have been training for some period of time all buying into "I have to use this, because if I don't, I won't get the results I'm after" and "All of the bodybuilders I see in the magazines use XYZ brand, so I have to use that too" :rolleyes: REALITY CHECK...If the people who are taking the Overall in their shows are using different types of what would most likely be considered by the majority of weight training members in here as less than optimal proteins...why are we so concerned about it? :confused:
Just something to consider...

a) Many "natural" competitive bodybuilders simply aren't.

b) I'm not advocating one get overly nitpicky but I DO advocate one use a protein blend for the benefits that the various fractions offer.

Kino
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 01:54 PM
a) Many "natural" competitive bodybuilders simply aren't.

I'm talking about the ones that do, and have been doing only tested (urine and polygragh) shows for years. There are quite a few out there.

Specialbear
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 01:59 PM
as long as price isnt a factor, go for the best, the upper 1%.

when price is a factor, be realistic. go with somethng a bit cheaper, and bust ur butt harder in the gym.

dafish721
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 02:39 PM
I tried doing natural casin protein (cottage cheese) at night but I can't palate it. I was hoping to use casin powder with a couple of tbls of cottage cheese mixed it but am not sure if one type (micelar vs ca casinate) is better than the other.

As far as isolete vs blend I get my whey from ATW and the 5lb isolete price is $35 and blend is $23. The maco break downs are almost identical so I don't see what the extra dough gets you. Am I missing something or why are most using isolete?

jsbrook
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 05:06 PM
I'm talking about the ones that do, and have been doing only tested (urine and polygragh) shows for years. There are quite a few out there.

What does this mean, though? Wouldn't much depend on the half-life of the steroids? And besides relatively recent use, I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the natural competitors used steroids in the past to help them attain their size initially. Not knocking; it's just hard to know what's really going on in these situations.

Specialbear
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 05:34 PM
1) How did steroids get in this post?!?!

2) Your nitpicking wayyyy too much. Seriously, eat some chicken and some peanuts instead of CC. SHakes arent everythinh

Kino
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 06:39 PM
What does this mean, though? Wouldn't much depend on the half-life of the steroids? And besides relatively recent use, I wouldn't be at all surprised if many of the natural competitors used steroids in the past to help them attain their size initially. Not knocking; it's just hard to know what's really going on in these situations.
Steroid half-life has absolutely no bearing on whether you can pass a polygragh when asked straight out "have you used steroids or steroid precursors?" We're hanging out in different ends of the internet universe. I'm not even going to continue with this.... :lol:

chris mason
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 07:09 PM
I'm talking about the ones that do, and have been doing only tested (urine and polygragh) shows for years. There are quite a few out there.


Are you familiar with John Hansen? He is a former Natural Mr. Olympia.

He recently stated that at the last Natural Olympia all 120 or so competitors were subjected to a polygraph. All of them passed. Due to cost issues only a few of the top placers were then actually drug tested. Of those who were 3 out of the top 4 finishers FAILED.

REAL drug testing costs too much for promoters.

The top guys at most "natural" contests are not, period.

There are some truly natural competitors and I take my hat off to them.

One more thing, drug tests are not terribly hard to beat and some are much easier to beat than others. I very clearly remember a friend of mine who was a top level college player (winner of the Outland award, Playboy top 10 and so on) at a major school telling me how he beat the drug test. He would be informed ahead of time when the test would occur and he would go to a doctor who would give him a shot of epitestosterone. This shot would bring his epitest to test level back into the norm and he would pass.

He went on to play pro ball.

Sports are riddled with drug users who pass tests. It just is what it is. No sense in romantically trying to deny it.

If you want to see what a drug free bodybuilder looks like you had better go WAY back and look at someone like Clancy Ross, Grimek, or Johnny McWilliams.

Kino
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 07:38 PM
If you want to see what a drug free bodybuilder looks like you had better go WAY back and look at someone like Clancy Ross, Grimek, or Johnny McWilliams.

I'm actually pretty amused that you would think that I don't know what a real natural bodybuilder looks like. What you say is true, and I know this. But I have no reason to defend friends, and the other people that I know. Just because you know others that have used steroids, maybe even used them yourself at some point...doesn't mean that everybody takes that route. There is a sense of pride that is acheived only by knowing that you just beat the guy that you know was juicing...and you did it naturally.
You believe what you want...but there are some people that have no reason to lie about how they've acheived their results. It's the ones who cheated, that just automatically think that because they juiced to get where they are, everybody else had to have too.

chris mason
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 08:08 PM
I'm actually pretty amused that you would think that I don't know what a real natural bodybuilder looks like. What you say is true, and I know this. But I have no reason to defend friends, and the other people that I know. Just because you know others that have used steroids, maybe even used them yourself at some point...doesn't mean that everybody takes that route. There is a sense of pride that is acheived only by knowing that you just beat the guy that you know was juicing...and you did it naturally.
You believe what you want...but there are some people that have no reason to lie about how they've acheived their results. It's the ones who cheated, that just automatically think that because they juiced to get where they are, everybody else had to have too.

Now, why do you need to go and indirectly accuse me of cheating?

Lol, that is poor form.

There are limits to what can be done naturally and I have a pretty good feel for them. There is a natural bodybuilding magazine, the name escapes me right now, which is full of guys I truly believe are clean. Guess what? They look nothing like Skip L. and some of the other guys who claim to be clean and are carrying as much lean tissue as Olympia competitors from the 70s and early 80s.

Kino
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Now, why do you need to go and indirectly accuse me of cheating?

Lol, that is poor form.

There are limits to what can be done naturally and I have a pretty good feel for them. There is a natural bodybuilding magazine, the name escapes me right now, which is full of guys I truly believe are clean. Guess what? They look nothing like Skip L. and some of the other guys who claim to be clean and are carrying as much lean tissue as Olympia competitors from the 70s and early 80s.
Didn't mean for that to come across as accusing you of cheating. :lol: But then I don't really appreciate being thought so naive, that I wouldn't know a natural bodybuilder from one that's not. Perhaps you're thinking of Fitness & Physique? Which I just happen to have the latest edition of in front of me, and happen to subscribe to. We could have saved maybe 5 - 6 of the above posts. :D

jsbrook
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Steroid half-life has absolutely no bearing on whether you can pass a polygragh when asked straight out "have you used steroids or steroid precursors?" We're hanging out in different ends of the internet universe. I'm not even going to continue with this.... :lol:

I don't trust polygraphs-they are notoriously easy to fake whether regarding questions about steroid use or anyting else. There's a reason why they're not admissable in court. I'm genuinely curious about this issue. I don't know very much about it, but it would seem to me that if polygraphs are the only safeguard, they're a very poor one. Not sure what you mean about hanging out in different ends of the internet universe. Like Chris, I respect those truly natural bodybuilders tremendously. It's just unfortunate that too many are bogus. Further, it's of course possible to attain a tremendous physique without steroids. But as we stand, we have very poor means of really determining who is and isn't using. It doesn't bother me on a personal level. If someone falsely passes themself off as natural, that's their problem and cross to bear.

doordude42
Sun, September 18th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Hey Fish - I don't know about all this scientific shit but I can tell you one thing. Micellar casein works well for me. Reason being, texture. It's very thick. Blended with some natty PB it's very filling. Hits the spot before bed! :nod:

Glaive
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 12:08 AM
So now that we're past the potentially thread-hijacking steroid discussion, can anyone post with actual real information about the two types of casein, possibly with their own personal experiences with one or the other? I'm looking into purchasing some casein in the next couple of weeks, and would be very interested to see what has worked for you guys.

jsbrook
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 09:26 AM
I use both Grow! from Biotest/T-Nation and Nitrean from At-Large Nutrion. Both are great blends with lots of casein. I'm a big pre-bed Grow! fan. I'll often wake up hungry before morning with other foods. This doesn't happen with Grow, and it's got a lot of micellar casein. Regular casein is fine too. Typical I'll have a protein powder on lifting days before bed. Often, I'll eat cottage cheese before bed on non-lifting days.

doordude42
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 10:05 AM
I use both Grow! from Biotest/T-Nation and Nitrean from At-Large Nutrion. Both are great blends with lots of casein. I'm a big pre-bed Grow! fan. I'll often wake up hungry before morning with other foods. This doesn't happen with Grow, and it's got a lot of micellar casein. Regular casein is fine too. Typical I'll have a protein powder on lifting days before bed. Often, I'll eat cottage cheese before bed on non-lifting days.

As I said, the consistency of 100% casein is thick. I normally blend ON 100% casein (blend of micellar casein & calcium caseinate),
2 tblsp. natty PB., & 1oz. heavy cream together. Some people may argue this contains too many calories (410) but it doesn't seem to be effecting me negatively. This pre - bed combo satisfies my hunger throughout the night. Most other protein supplements however leave me feeling hungry.

Specialbear
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 01:31 PM
just to chime in here about polygraphs

i have to take a Psychology class as part of my curriculum,,, like freaking chem engineers dont have enuf shit on thier plates/

Anyways, we learned about polygraphs a week ago, and they are VERY inaccurate. Since the measure body changes, with practice, one can lie with ease and the machine will not pick it up. In fact, the innocent have a greater chance of being proved gulity than the guilty being proved innocent.

Only trust natural shows that clearly show a drug TEST.

doordude42
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 01:56 PM
just to chime in here about polygraphs

i have to take a Psychology class as part of my curriculum,,, like freaking chem engineers dont have enuf shit on thier plates/

Anyways, we learned about polygraphs a week ago, and they are VERY inaccurate. Since the measure body changes, with practice, one can lie with ease and the machine will not pick it up. In fact, the innocent have a greater chance of being proved gulity than the guilty being proved innocent.

Only trust natural shows that clearly show a drug TEST.

In the infamous words of George Costanza, "If you believe it, it's not a lie". Point being, polygraph tests can be beaten. Fact!

jsbrook
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 03:11 PM
As I said, the consistency of 100% casein is thick. I normally blend ON 100% casein (blend of micellar casein & calcium caseinate),
2 tblsp. natty PB., & 1oz. heavy cream together. Some people may argue this contains too many calories (410) but it doesn't seem to be effecting me negatively. This pre - bed combo satisfies my hunger throughout the night. Most other protein supplements however leave me feeling hungry.

Grow + At Large are both blends as is. My favorite pre-bed snack is the banana grow flavor mixed with cottage cheese, Hood Carb-control milk and olive oil. Water added to desired consistency. Tastes like dessert. Yum!

doordude42
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Grow + At Large are both blends as is. My favorite pre-bed snack is the banana grow flavor mixed with cottage cheese, Hood Carb-control milk and olive oil. Water added to desired consistency. Tastes like dessert. Yum!

Sounds good. I've yet to mix cottage cheese in mine. I might have to give it a try. :tu:

dafish721
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Thanks Doordude and jsbrooks for advice and getting us back on track. I think I will get the Micellar Casein and try it with nat PB and cottage cheese. I stopped using the nat pb in my PWO shake after everyones advice and I miss that chocolate/PB taste combo.

One more thing. I sometimes eat 3oz of beef jerkey (240 calories and almost all protein) before bed as my last meal. Good or bad?

doordude42
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Thanks Doordude and jsbrooks for advice and getting us back on track. I think I will get the Micellar Casein and try it with nat PB and cottage cheese. I stopped using the nat pb in my PWO shake after everyones advice and I miss that chocolate/PB taste combo.

One more thing. I sometimes eat 3oz of beef jerkey (240 calories and almost all protein) before bed as my last meal. Good or bad?
Are you on a cut or bulk. If you're cutting you might wanna watch your calories. If not, enjoy!!! :eat: :tu:

dafish721
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 04:59 PM
I am cutting and trying to maintain lean mass. I only use 1/2 - 1 tbl of nat PB and the fat free cottage cheese 1-2tbl (my way of getting the natural casein protein down the hatch). My total daily caloric intake is only 1500-1600cals a day with a 50p/30c/20f split. Is the micellar casein high calories (more than whey protein per serving)? ATW site gives maco breakdown (equal breakdown to whey blend) but not total calories.

jsbrook
Mon, September 19th, 2005, 06:09 PM
I am cutting and trying to maintain lean mass. I only use 1/2 - 1 tbl of nat PB and the fat free cottage cheese 1-2tbl (my way of getting the natural casein protein down the hatch). My total daily caloric intake is only 1500-1600cals a day with a 50p/30c/20f split. Is the micellar casein high calories (more than whey protein per serving)? ATW site gives maco breakdown (equal breakdown to whey blend) but not total calories.

Nope, casein protein's no higher per serving than whey. Most servings of pure protein are about 100-110 calories regardless of manufacturer. 1500-1600 calories a day is most liekly too low.

chris mason
Tue, September 20th, 2005, 12:03 AM
Didn't mean for that to come across as accusing you of cheating. :lol: But then I don't really appreciate being thought so naive, that I wouldn't know a natural bodybuilder from one that's not. Perhaps you're thinking of Fitness & Physique? Which I just happen to have the latest edition of in front of me, and happen to subscribe to. We could have saved maybe 5 - 6 of the above posts. :D


My apologies.

No, not that magazine.

I would be interested to see some links or pics of bodybuilders you consider to be natural.

Chris

Kino
Tue, September 20th, 2005, 07:38 AM
I would be interested to see some links or pics of bodybuilders you consider to be natural.

Top left across, Aram, Sean, and Mike each have 20+ years of training under their belts. Craig, at the extreme right became a WNBF Pro the year before last with the help of Joe Klemezewski. (I would expect that you know who Dr. Joe is) Frank in the lower left just took the overall (and received his pro card) two weeks ago, but I don't remember the federation right off the top of my head. Then you've got Doug Miller, and Wil Usher left to right across the bottom.
The only person I can't say for sure about being pro would be Wil Usher. All the others are pro, with some holding cards in several federations.


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