I've read in a few places that fructose is not good for PWO because it replenishes liver glycogen first. Does that mean that fruit is not ideal for somebody who is training hard and trying to lose fat while putting on a little muscle too? Or does the no fructose rule only apply in the one hour PWO window. If this is the case, what are the best times to get your carbs from fructose?

Also I was wondering if there are any other carbs that replenish liver glycogen before muscle glycogen, so that I can avoid them PWO.

good question. i was just about to ask about this.

The GI of fructose is too low so it is not digested quickly and does not raise insulin levels enough. Plus, it can't be used by the body to restore muscle glycogen. As you mentioned, it is used to restore liver glycogen. So while fruit is OK in moedration it should not be your first choice as a pwo carb source.

in suppliment to what hort said...

Fruit is ok in moderation on a fatloss diet.
Fructose can be used for 2 things: refilling your liver glycogen, and refilling your fat cells. (in that order)

But - on a bulking diet, you're going to be keeping your glycogen levels very high/full all the time with all the carbs you're eating, which means there's no where else for fructose to go except fat. (in theory)

BUT* - are we talking about fructose? or fruit?
yes, there is definatly fructose sugar in fruit, but alot of fruit is water.
the study that determined that fructose will overfill the liver glycogen and spill over into fat was done on mice with high fructose corn syrup, which is of MUCH higher concentration than eating fruit.
but of course, this is the study that linked fruit as being bad.

in short - if you're bulking and you're addicted to fruit, eat some for breakfast when your glycogen levels will be low from a good night's sleep, and try to stick to complex carbs the rest of the day. (except after lifting, then go with dextrose)


as for other carbs that fill up the liver glycogen first, and THEN fill up the muscle glycogen... this i'm not too sure about.
for example, when you eat oatmeal, it's broken down into glucose and stored as glycogen. but does it store it in BOTH the liver AND the muscle? or just the muscle?
this i don't know.

in suppliment to what hort said...

Fruit is ok in moderation on a fatloss diet.
Fructose can be used for 2 things: refilling your liver glycogen, and refilling your fat cells. (in that order)

But - on a bulking diet, you're going to be keeping your glycogen levels very high/full all the time with all the carbs you're eating, which means there's no where else for fructose to go except fat. (in theory)

BUT* - are we talking about fructose? or fruit?
yes, there is definatly fructose sugar in fruit, but alot of fruit is water.
the study that determined that fructose will overfill the liver glycogen and spill over into fat was done on mice with high fructose corn syrup, which is of MUCH higher concentration than eating fruit.
but of course, this is the study that linked fruit as being bad.

in short - if you're bulking and you're addicted to fruit, eat some for breakfast when your glycogen levels will be low from a good night's sleep, and try to stick to complex carbs the rest of the day. (except after lifting, then go with dextrose)


as for other carbs that fill up the liver glycogen first, and THEN fill up the muscle glycogen... this i'm not too sure about.
for example, when you eat oatmeal, it's broken down into glucose and stored as glycogen. but does it store it in BOTH the liver AND the muscle? or just the muscle?
this i don't know.

I am definitely referring to fructose from fruit, and not high fructose corn syrup. From what you've said, it sounds like a moderate amount of fruit is great on a fatloss diet, assuming you haven't already filled your liver glycogen with other carbs.

This also confirms something interesting I read in an article about carb cycling. In the article, the author suggests that you eat a medium sized serving of fruit at the beginning of any meal containing carbs. He said this was to ensure your liver glycogen was at least partially full BEFORE you started taking in carbs from other sources. I'm guessing the reason for this was so the other carbs go immediately toward feeding your muscles.

I guess the last unanswered question is this: Are there some carbs that first replenish muscle, then liver, then fat glycogen? How about liver, than muscle, than fat glycogen? Lastly, how about muscle then directly to fat? Please forgive me if the science of my premise is off base here.

just buy some dextrose and maltodextrin like i did after i asked this question and swole responded

dun dun dun!

the science? i dont know.

im very curious also... because i want to know what times are best to have fruit to where it will not contribute to fat storage.

swole said something about not eating a bananna because it will go to fat storage. im not sure what context that was in.. you know whether if this is the case after just liftng... or any other time of the day.

this leads to my next inquiry which is...

if one is getting well under thier maintenance level caloric numbers (TDEE) and eats fruit at the wrong time.... this fruit issue supeceds the calorie rule or what?


i know loosing fat and or just wieght is not as black and white as getting low calories... but i think my question/inquiry still deserves a proper response so i can understand why certain things supercede other things when the rational is not obvious. the obvious rational is that getting lower cals each day will lead to fat loss over anything else.

Before this discussion gets too complex, I want to bring it down to earth.

So, someone please speak up, it they truly believe that fresh or whole fruit has made them or somebody they know fat.

If you say yes, please list what your typical daily diet.

Just curious?

Before this discussion gets too complex, I want to bring it down to earth.

So, someone please speak up, it they truly beleive that fresh or whole fruit has made them or somebody they know fat.

If you say yes, please list what your typical daily diet.

Just curious?

Frankly my question is more complex than that. But to answer your question, low gi fruits are good on a cutting diet when used in moderation. Me and kross are more concerned about how different kinds of carbs effect the body at different times, and in different combinations. As several people have already stated, this is not merely a question of GI rating, insulin spikes etc.

Does that mean that fruit is not ideal for somebody who is training hard and trying to lose fat while putting on a little muscle too?

Also I was wondering if there are any other carbs that replenish liver glycogen before muscle glycogen, so that I can avoid them PWO.

1. This was one of your original questions and I am suggesting that if you make a concerted effort to remove fruit from your diet because you think that it is going to make you fat or prevent fat loss you will be less than impressed.

2. Studies indicate both glucose and fructose promote rapid glycogen repletion in the liver at similar rates. So the carb that is going to replenish liver glycogen PWO is in fact your glucose based PWO drinks.

1. This was one of your original questions and I am suggesting that if you make a concerted effort to remove fruit from your diet because you think that it is going to make you fat or prevent fat loss you will be less than impressed.

2. Studies indicate both glucose and fructose promote rapid glycogen repletion in the liver at similar rates. So the carb that is going to replenish liver glycogen PWO is in fact your glucose based PWO drinks.


if im not mistaken from a swole post. too much fructose based carbs will turn to fat, because the liver can not process it as fast or something along those lines

Plus, it can't be used by the body to restore muscle glycogen

This is untrue. Fructose is converted by hepatocytes into glucose. This glucose can be released into the circulatory system or converted into glycogen stored in the liver. Muscle glycogen is formed from glucose that enters the muscle via the circulatory system.

Also what is so evil about liver glycogen? If a muscle needs energy, liver glycogen will be converted into glucose and enter the circulatory system.

Fructose can be used for 2 things: refilling your liver glycogen, and refilling your fat cells. (in that order)

This is also untrue. As I stated above Fructose is converted into glucose. Glucose can be used for immediate ATP production for energy, combined with other glucose molecules to form glycogen, or converted into triglycerides.

I guess the last unanswered question is this: Are there some carbs that first replenish muscle, then liver, then fat glycogen? How about liver, than muscle, than fat glycogen? Lastly, how about muscle then directly to fat? Please forgive me if the science of my premise is off base here.

First off there is no such thing as fat glycogen. All the carbohydrates you eat are either simple carbohydrates (monosaccharides-glucose, fructose, or galactose) or complex carbohydrates (disaccarides or polysaccaharides). During digestion, complex carbohydrates are converted into either glucose, fructose, or galactose. These monosacharides are then absorbed into capillaries of the villi of the small intestine and then carried through the hepatic portal vein to the liver. Liver cells convert most of the remaining fructose and nearly all the galactose to glucose.

This is untrue. Fructose is converted by hepatocytes into glucose. This glucose can be released into the circulatory system or converted into glycogen stored in the liver. Muscle glycogen is formed from glucose that enters the muscle via the circulatory system.


It's true enough. What I should have said was QUICKLY or READILY enough. Unlike glucose, fructose moves very slowly through the intestines and mostly gets snared by the the liver and is processed BEFORE the muscles can get a hold of it. So, as straight fructose it's pretty useless for immediate muscle replenishment until it's processed and changed by the liver. As we both said- glucose goes straight through the digestive wall and into the bloodstream.

Simply put:

Ask ANY pro bb'er, fitness woman, endurance athlete, or a coach of ANY one of these people, "Is fruit a good carb source pwo to include in a post-workout meal?"

The answer will be "NO!!!!!"

Take it for what it's worth. :cool:

~SC~

Simply put:

Ask ANY pro bb'er, fitness woman, endurance athlete, or a coach of ANY one of these people, "Is fruit a good carb source pwo to include in a post-workout meal?"

The answer will be "NO!!!!!"

Take it for what it's worth. :cool:

~SC~

The way I originally read the question is ultimately, "what other times should you avoid fruits?" Any thoughts?

is it okay to have a bananna with oatmeal pwo and pre wo?

is it okay to have a bananna with oatmeal pwo and pre wo?
dude, skip the banana, eat more oatmeal to compensate.

dude, skip the banana, eat more oatmeal to compensate.



just checking because the bananna gives my shake that flavor i enjoy.
ive tried using like a half cup of unsweetened low carb soy and it works for adding flavor... as well as some splenda. just oatmeal plus whey scoop and water sux in terms of flavor. im just looking for a good way to add flavor to my post workout shake without screwing things up. im going to expierement with heavy whip cream this time... see how that goes.

Simply put:

Ask ANY pro bb'er, fitness woman, endurance athlete, or a coach of ANY one of these people, "Is fruit a good carb source pwo to include in a post-workout meal?"

The answer will be "NO!!!!!"

Take it for what it's worth. :cool:

~SC~

...and this calls for the obvious question:

why?????

...and this calls for the obvious question:

why?????
fruit has no impact on leptin levels, and does nothing to refuel/refeed muscles.

EDIT
----------
with that said... most fruits consist of alot of water, fructose, and fiber.
ripe bananas are different though, and i like to avoid them anytime after meal #1.
(meal 1 is ok because cortisol levels are higher upon waking.)

But - razsberries, blackberries, blueberries, and of course shnozberries for example, contain less sugar and have ALOT of fiber.
these, IMO, are fine anytime.

...IMO... i'm not a scientist, and i usually stay away from fruit, and stick mainly to veggies.

i think this article can help you.. as it helps me very much....

Chris (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/zaino14.htm)

i think this article can help you.. as it helps me very much....

Chris (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/zaino14.htm)


really, wasnt thera big argument about this that got closed like a week ago??

Doesnt anyone use the Search feature:(

really, wasnt thera big argument about this that got closed like a week ago??

Doesnt anyone use the Search feature:(


about carbs or fructose? does this thread present the same info as the other thread/argument you mentioned and do they share the same subject in thier thread names? trying to see if your frustration about this search deal is valid.

1 serving of fruit is 3-9g fructose depending on the fruit so 3 servings is 9-27g fructose....hardly enough to fill liver glycogen.... why all the concern?

Plus if you are banging the irons hard, doing cardio and/or your carbs are low and therefore your total glucose level is low (meaning the brain is starving) the body will convert fructose to glucose prior to filling liver glycogen so that the brain can maintain normal function....otherwise we'd walk around in a daze or become hypoglycemic.

That and I don't think most people here are competing so why deprive yourself of fiber, antioxidents and important micronutrients by avoiding fruit?

HFCS....sure there's a concern because it's a nutritionally devoid sweetener....it's in lots of processed and store bought products (soft drinks included). It's akin to transfat in terms of things that can hurt your goals that secretly reside in the store bought things we eat.

Read the label, if you see Glucose-Fructose or glucose/fructose....that's HFCS (some will label HFCS). I'd try to minimize that where you can.