Didnt know where to post this since there isnt a "muscle loss" section.


ok, so based on what i've read...
------------------------------------
*cortisol is let out by the pancreas in times of high body/mental stress.
*cortisol levels are highest in the morning upon waking
*insulin lowers excess cortisol levels
*higher amounts of cortisol are let out when you excersize, expecially if you excersize in a fasted state upon waking.


i dont know what im getting at here... but -
1. shouldnt we AVOID fasted LISS because of this?
2. maybe sip some gatoraid during cardio?
3. would eating protein/fat lower cortisol levels? or can only carbs kill off excess cortisol?
4. does cortisol only start going crazy after 45 minutes of excersize?


i'm mainly pointing this at swolecat kinda, because he advocates fasted LISS with a pro/fat meal right away afterward, and no carbs for 30-45 minutes afterward (info based on his older posts)
but if anyone else has info on cortisol, please set me straight on this.

:d_confuse

Who,

No one can set you straight on this since cortisol release varies from one individual to the next. My suggestion would be not to stress over it, or else you'll release more cortisol. You may think I'm being a wise a$$ but to give an example, I remember training and dieting for a show where my calories were below maint., and I was doing a bit more volume than I usually do in the gym when my calories are low. But I was still right on point. Not losing, and maintaining quite successfully. The morning of the show I looked fantastic. I drove 4 hours in a driving rain storm, in the dark, while getting lost several times during my trip to the venue. When I got there, just in the nick of time, I went backstage, looked in the mirror and saw a completely different person. The stress of the drive tore into my muscle and conditioning. The next morning, with the stress of the show over, I looked just as good as before my joyride through the hurricane.

Agreed-

I think you are worrying too much about it/overthinking it (unless your doctor has told you you have a cortisol problem). It's a current advertising fad too )Relacore, etc).

As several of us have said before... fasted LISS can work. That's not based on anybody's thesis, it's based on experience. I've dropped around 4% bodyfat in the last month and gained 2lbs lean mass. I'm satisfied. Maybe it doesn't work for you but it's been great for me.

I've researched cortisol extensively being that I have a high-stress job and I've always had sleep problems.

Cortisol is not the enemy. It's essential to operating throughout your day and is most useful in stressful situations (even life/death situations, because cortisol regulates the "fight or flight" response). It is also not the enemy of a resistance training program - in fact, if you know how to manipulate your training around cortisol levels throughout the day, it'll work for you - not against you.

Here's something this forum universally frowns upon, yet the science says we should give it a fair chance...

One of the positive arguments for performing aerobic cardiovascular activity immediately after resistance training is that when we perform resistance training, we force the body to release cortisol. As such, that cortisol increase helps excite the body's potential energy stores - your body fat - i.e., the fatty acids in your fat stores are ready to be mobilized. When we perform aerobic exercise (not HIIT) after a resistance training session, the theory is that the body's fat stores can be more readily oxidized for energy - so theoretically, you can burn more fat immediately after you lift weights if you do some cardio (how much, I don't really know). By performing aerobic cardio immediately post resistance training, you're making the most of your increased cortisol levels.

I have never personally done this for any appreciable length of time nor have I tracked its effects on my physique... so I can't say if it works or not. But... I do believe that the higher cortisol levels present during my morning, fasted state lifting workouts have benefitted me a great deal with respect to fat loss; my morning workouts are fast paced and almost cardiovascular in and of itself because I use short rest periods. In doing so, I'm killing two birds with one stone - I'm lifting - so I'm maintaining if not building muscle, and I'm operating in an aerobically cardiovascular state which helps burn fat.

Don't overthink it. Cortisol is something you should already really know about your body - you know when you feel most energized (which corresponds to high cortisol levels) and when you're most tired, which corresponds to lower cortisol levels (usually, this is mid afternoon for most of us who work your typical "banker's hours"). Understanding how cortisol affects training and when it's most present in your system can help your training, not hinder it - but if you ignore cortisol altogether, I think you won't hurt yourself at all. Being consistent is more important than worrying about things like cortisol or leptin levels.

It's my theory - maybe SC can clarify this without betraying his program's confidence... that through avoiding carbohydrates post-cardio, you're again using higher cortisol levels to your advantage. You do your cardio in a fasted state, the cortisol in your system agitates your fat stores, then immediately post cardio, you have a meal that's protein (for your muscles) and fat (to encourage the body to utilize fat as its primary energy source in the absence of carbs). This is why I advocate avoiding carbs for a couple of hours after early morning LISS. If you put carbs into the system, it throws this whole theory out the window because your body will ignore the agitated fat stores and go straight to the more ready energy source you just threw down your gullet - carbs! So avoid them post LISS...

That's my time...

-R

Perhaps because LISS cardio is relatively stress free on the body, (compared to say HIIT or weightlifting) the cortisol released is neglegable compared to the induced fat moblization/oxidation from the LISS?

What kinds of carbs though....

complex carbs can take several hours for the body to break down to glucose before it can be utilized as energy....depending on the length of the chains.

If you threw a snickers bar down the hatch, your body would have a field day and jump on that immediately. If you had a bowl of old fashioned oats or something with maltodex in it or even a banana, that's going to take a lot longer before the body can even think about using that energy source.

can someone give me an analogy to illustrate this cortisol thing. im trying to figure this out here.... not working. i probably just need to read closer... im listening to the mars volta/music while i read this thread so that might be a distraction to concentrate. :D



i really want to understand cortisol and how to use it to my advantage.

i really want to understand cortisol and how to use it to my advantage.

Turn off the muzak.

If'n you ask me, cortisol is a non-issue for people who are careful not to overtrain. Cortisol is responsible for breaking down the protein in muscle tissue for use in the glycogen recharge process.

The reason cortisol becomes your enemy is that it is pretty much the one and only hormone in your body that's responsible for maintaining the most important processes in the human body during times of prolonged stress. If you work out for too long, you can bet your cortisol levels will soar, at which time the body can look to the protein in the muscles as a source of stored energy/glycogen. Cortisol is not directly responsible for the initiation of metabolic or circulatory processes, but it is necessary for those bodily functions to respond fully during stressful times.

Any time you are under physical or mental stress, you produce some cortisol. The amount your body releases tends to be related to the amount of stress you're under. I.e., the longer you train, the higher your cortisol levels will go.

Here's a very important reason not to take your calories too low. We get soooooo many nOObs in here who post ridiculously low-calorie diets... which will cause cortisol levels to soar. Make sure you are supplying your body with all the essential nutrients you need to prevent deficiencies and provide for optimal function. This is why nutrition is so damned important! Nutrition should include plenty of high-quality protein, complex carbohydrates, essential fatty acids, and of course, vitamins and minerals. Do not to restrict calories continuously; this is why cheats are important. I've read many things about cortisol that suggests that restricting normal caloric intake too drastically or over prolonged periods of time will absolutely lead to a significant increase in cortisol levels - and your body will go after your musculature for protein if it needs to.

Other things to be wary of with cortisol... obviously, don't overtrain. Try to release stress - don't get it pent up. Get your sleep - sleep helps lower cortisol levels throughout the day. Use a classic PWO shake! The insulin spike you create PWO with a dex/protein shake is more important for cortisol suppression than it is to deliver protein to muscles you just worked; those muscles will be enhanced over the next 48~72 hours, not in the immediate hours following a workout. Lastly, glutamine is believed to help reduce cortisol levels, but I don't use L-glutamine, so I can't tell you whether it's worth a damn.

If that doesn't explain cortisol to everyone... I don't know what will. Maybe Jeremy or SC can supplement this with their expertise as this is just an idiot's interpretation of what he's read about cortisol.

-R

From what I've read cortisol is a catabolic hormone. It’s released by the adrenal glands when blood glucose is low and during stressful moments. Both mental stress and physical stress can cause a release of this hormone. This is because the body cannot differentiate from stress caused by weightlifting or mental stress.

What its major job is to do during these events is to provide energy for the body. Our body uses certain steps for energy. It starts by using carbs, fat then protein for energy, but when cortisol enters the picture this system changes. It first selects protein, carbs and finally fat for fuel. Its first choice is protein since there are low levels of carbs and protein can be broken down into amino acids, which are sent to the liver to be changed over to sugar. This sugar is now ready to fuel the workout.

One reason we drink a PWO shake with some kind of fast digesting sugar like dextrose or maltose is to create the hormone insulin to be released. This hormone will shunt away the catabolic hormone cortisol.

hope this clears up things.
john

so if you want to loose as much fat as possible and maitain or gain as much muslce as possible (cutting)... the idea is to keep cortisol levels very low?

can someone give me an analogy to illustrate this cortisol thing. im trying to figure this out here.... not working. i probably just need to read closer... im listening to the mars volta/music while i read this thread so that might be a distraction to concentrate. :D

i really want to understand cortisol and how to use it to my advantage.

Here's a cortisol analogy.

Cortisol is the "hunting" hormone.

Whenever you go hunting, your body doesn't know whether or not you will be successful.

The faster you go, the more stress you suffer, and the less sleep you get, the more your body assumes that your hunts are not successful. If you train really hard for a really long time and don't rest, your body assumes you're spending most of your time on unsuccessful hunts in a place where game is scarce. So it releases cortisol, which tells your body that it should start catabolizing, because it's going to be a rough month.

But having a big meal of tasty, quick energy right after a bunch of stress stops your body from producing cortisol. The hunt has been successful - there is no need to live off of catabolism anymore - it's assumed that not only do you have food right now, but you have enough food to last you for a little while, too.

The human organism really isn't supposed to live by an industrial-age clock. We're higher-order mammals, and are thus best suited for relatively short bursts of activity and stress intermittently dispersed with lots of eating, drinking, mating, and rest. If we're constantly working hard at something and getting no reward for it, obviously, something is wrong, and our body just assumes we're going to starve.

so if you want to loose as much fat as possible and maitain or gain as much muslce as possible (cutting)... the idea is to keep cortisol levels very low?

*Ding ding ding*

We have a winna!

There really aren't many strategies for managing cortisol beyond what I mentioned:

(1) Sleep
(2) Manage stress outside the gym well
(3) Don't overtrain
(4) Supplement w/L-glutamine (which I doubt its validity)

Follow those guidelines and cortisol won't really even be something you need to consider.

-R

so if you want to loose as much fat as possible and maitain or gain as much muslce as possible (cutting)... the idea is to keep cortisol levels very low?

Yes, the idea is to prevent cortisol from doing more damage then it has to after a workout. We do this with a liquid shake containing protein, a simple sugar, and amino acids(glutamine, BCAA, and creatine(recovery of ATP/CP). But we don't want to totally eliminate this hormone because it does have it's jobs in the body.

okay thnx! cool.

so what positives does it have in a cutting diet?


also.... if one wants to avoid stress as much as possible in a cutting diet... wouldnt some beer help then... since it cuts the edge off?


i know... that alchol lowers metabolism... and your body shuts everything down to get rid of it... but if one could tweak or manage alchol to work for you instead of against you... using cortisol as another element... then would this work? or is it still counter productive... beinng that the alcohol issue supercedes the cortisol issue?

also.... if one wants to avoid stress as much as possible in a cutting diet... wouldnt some beer help then... since it cuts the edge off?

This is the principle behind that crappy TV-drug RELACORE. It's a mild depressant that's supposed to reduce stress and thus cortisol. But depressants don't really do that much to help with cortisol.

Think of the three ways Bluestreak suggested to manage cortisol.

1) Sleep

Taking depressants, especially alcohol, hurts the quality of your sleep.

2) Manage stress outside the gym well

This is not just for a few hours, but every day, day to day. One beer might take the edge off for an hour, but what about the other 23? And once you're up to five or six beers, you're definitely running into problems with both stress management and weight gain.

3) Don't overtrain

Alcohol hurts your recovery from workouts. Again, not much, but probabbly more than it helps suppress cortisol.

The simple carbs in the beer would do more to fight cortisol than the depressants would, anyway, but if eating lots and lots of sugar all day were the secret to weight loss, we'd all be in six-pack central here in the USA.

i hear ya. but sugar is entirley different element then simple carbs from beer.... im assuming beer has no sugar here. i see your point though.
i hope.

why is that when i do drink... and then i get some sleep and wake up i feel a lot more rested? my workouts kick ass after a beer drinking night.

when you say "prolonged stress", what counts as prolonged? will a 60 minute run on one of the machines boost cortisol to an unacceptable level?

i tend to do my steady state cardio for 60 minutes but ive heard some say you should keep it down to 45 minutes to make sure cortisol doesnt get to you.

when you say "prolonged stress", what counts as prolonged? will a 60 minute run on one of the machines boost cortisol to an unacceptable level?

i tend to do my steady state cardio for 60 minutes but ive heard some say you should keep it down to 45 minutes to make sure cortisol doesnt get to you.

A steady cardio leans towards the use of fatty acids rather than muscle glycogen(glucose stores in muscle) as fuel. Cortisol is usually released at stressful moments like HIIT where glucose is quickly depleted. about doing cardio for 45mins vs 60 mins, this all depends on what kind of progress you are making. Are you losing body fat with only doing 45 mins cardio? If so stick to it. If not try 60 mins.

A steady cardio leans towards the use of fatty acids rather than muscle glycogen(glucose stores in muscle) as fuel. Cortisol is usually released at stressful moments like HIIT where glucose is quickly depleted. about doing cardio for 45mins vs 60 mins, this all depends on what kind of progress you are making. Are you losing body fat with only doing 45 mins cardio? If so stick to it. If not try 60 mins.

would getting a protien/carb shake 30min before and right after HIIT keep cortisol levels very low... and thus only recieving the positive part from HIIT which is an increased skyrocket metabolism right after?

Like many here, muscle-loss is a serious worry for me. For health reasons, for the last few months my priorities were lbs of fat loss and improvements in things like blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. Body composition was of secondary concern (though obviously of great interest). Now that I've achieved my initial targets, I'm focusing more on preventing further muscle loss, and eventually regaining the muscle that was lost.

A couple of things that seem to jump out at me (and my tentative interpretations of them) when I've been reading up on cortisol:

1. Chronically elevated cortisol levels are the problem. This means - high cortisol levels in between workouts, which interfere with recovery and the things that should be happening during your periods of rest, such as re-building the muscle. That extra ten minutes of sprint at the end of your cardio is not the time when muscle-building is key; so the slight increase in muscle breakdown in those minutes is maybe less important in the longrun than the body's ability to rebuild muscle in the day(s) afterwards.

2. Cortisol causes muscle protein to be mobilised for gluconeogenisis, true, but at the same time it also mobilises free fatty acids from your fat stores. Your body therefore ends up using both of these fuels (i.e. burning muscle and fat). But don't forget that with repeated exercise come various training effects - including things that ultimately aid in improving your body composition, such as increased fat-burning ability, improved capacity to perform exercise (including weights), increased endurance, etc.

So, yes, the stress of exercise causes cortisol to be released. This cortisol makes it easier for the body to get energy for the exercise from muscle and fat stores, in order to accomplish the exercise. The exercise itself is a means to an end - improved metabolism and better gym performance, which are things that could far outweigh the temporary effects of the fuel burning during exercise.

Major props to Bluestreak and PeteBDawg for their sharp replies.

Excellent.

:tu:

thanks for all the great replys. discussion yields useful threads.

Lately, hormones have been at the peek of my interest - especially cortisol and testosterone - to the point where i'm actually sipping my PWO shake DURING my workout (after each excersize) rather than after my workout, to make sure cortisol doesn't get secreted.
Am I crazy for doing this? maybe, but the dextrose/whey/glutamine definatly keeps my workouts as intense as possible.
{of course, 30 minutes after i'm done with the workout and the duringworkout shake, i'll have some oatmeal and a small chicken breast.}

anyway - point is - i suggest giving this a try if cortisol release is a concern of yours.