hey guys, im wondering what you guys think about high intensity solid state cardio. i did 60 minutes at 80-85% max HR today. i thought it was great, didnt kill me,though its quite different from 65-70% for 60 minutes.

afterwards i had my protein shake, then an hour later i devoured some carbs.

so what do you think? this week ill be doing 30 minutes at 65% after my lifting sessions and probly 2 more HISS on my plain cardio days. id really like to start boosting my calorie deficits.

opinions appreciated
thanks :tu:

hey guys, im wondering what you guys think about high intensity solid state cardio. i did 60 minutes at 80-85% max HR today. i thought it was great, didnt kill me,though its quite different from 65-70% for 60 minutes.

afterwards i had my protein shake, then an hour later i devoured some carbs.

so what do you think? this week ill be doing 30 minutes at 65% after my lifting sessions and probly 2 more HISS on my plain cardio days. id really like to start boosting my calorie deficits.

opinions appreciated
thanks :tu:

were you in a fasted state during the 60 minute session today?

were you in a fasted state during the 60 minute session today?

naw i dont like the idea of fasted cardio. i have a protein shake before my cardio sessions.

I think you mean "steady state" yes?

I think you mean "steady state" yes?

do'h! yeah..thats the ticket :tucool:

wait... you go this hard for 60 minutes? wow.

wait... you go this hard for 60 minutes? wow.

yeah it was a blast! well, its on the elliptical machine, i guess some call that cheating, but i had fun

you must be in great cardiovascular shape.

I do 80-90% MHR for 40-50 mins usually twice per week. Either treadmill or elliptical, I mix it up. I pair that with 1-2 post-lifting 15-20 min cardio sessions of medium intensity. It's been working well for me.

amazing.

must be the cocaine.

amazing.

must be the cocaine.

:confused:

:lol:

I don't know how you guys get your HR up that high on an elliptical machine...I swear I put it on the highest setting and have my hands goin' on the dealies and whathaveyou and I can hardly every break anything over 150 esp. for any length of time...I stick to the bike, stairmaster, and uphill walking because keeping my HR up is 10X easier.

I don't know how you guys get your HR up that high on an elliptical machine...I swear I put it on the highest setting and have my hands goin' on the dealies and whathaveyou and I can hardly every break anything over 150 esp. for any length of time...I stick to the bike, stairmaster, and uphill walking because keeping my HR up is 10X easier.

Can't get my HR up on an elliptical.. my legs start hurting too quickly, haha.

I don't even advise 60 mins of LISS, as dietary manipulation comes first before I'd ever up a 45 minute session to 60. Actually, I've never had a need to do that with myself or clients.

60 mins of "balls to the wall" you'd never see me do or recommend, nope.

That's just my opinion. :d_smile:

~SC~

Just wondering, is there anything wrong with 45 minutes of such HISS, or do you simply prefer HIIT?

Also, I wonder how should one eat before/after such workout?

Steady State for 60 mins....yikes 8O

I get all the benefit I need at about 85%+ SS for 25 mins or so. I think I'd be absolutely wiped after 40min and requiring O2 and a defibrulator at 60min.

Probably slightly counter-productive for bodybuilding concerns....is your focus more cardio based or muscle building based? Just curious.

=========================================
Also, I wonder how should one eat before/after such workout?

HIT ....most will say A.M. fasted ...post-HIT... protein + fat (some say wait an hour to continue the burn as they believe carbs will turn off lipolysis).

Others....pre-HIT a little carbs and some protein to break your all-night fast...post HIT a regular meal of carbs +protein and a little fat (if it's really grueling you may want to consider a PWO shake and then a meal later).

trial and error, measure your waist and watch the mirror is your best feedback.

If nothing else.... eat afterwards....to not eat would not be wise.

Just wondering, is there anything wrong with 45 minutes of such HISS, or do you simply prefer HIIT?


Not sure if you were asking me directly or not, but I don't like either of the options you have listed personally.

~SC~

I question how hard you are really going and how you're determining heartrate. 85-90% heartrate for an hour is really intense. It's not something high level athletes do more than 1-2 times a week. Purely as a body composition issue, I see it as unecessary and counterproductive. But of course there are other reasons for intense workouts.

hey guys, im wondering what you guys think about high intensity solid state cardio. i did 60 minutes at 80-85% max HR today. i thought it was great, didnt kill me,though its quite different from 65-70% for 60 minutes.

afterwards i had my protein shake, then an hour later i devoured some carbs.

so what do you think? this week ill be doing 30 minutes at 65% after my lifting sessions and probly 2 more HISS on my plain cardio days. id really like to start boosting my calorie deficits.

opinions appreciated
thanks :tu:

OPINION: I don't like it.

Ok, If you are just looking at your calorie deficits, then make sure you don't do too much of a defecit. I beleive if you are going the calorie deficit model, you also don't want to lose more than 2lbs a week....that would equal around 7,000 calories (3500per lb of fat).

But, if you are able to train at that intensity, you have to be in good shape. If you lose 2lbs a week it won't be all fat. You will lose serious muscle.

And in my experience, there were periods of time when i would play basketball almost everyday for at least 40mins. That was the slowest fat loss i have experienced. I certainly did not gain muscle during those periods.

Not sure if you were asking me directly or not, but I don't like either of the options you have listed personally.

~SC~


what DO you suggest? if i dont do 60 minutes i feel like im not doing enough. the only thing i get worried about is cortisol messing with my muscles.

OPINION: I don't like it.

Ok, If you are just looking at your calorie deficits, then make sure you don't do too much of a defecit. I beleive if you are going the calorie deficit model, you also don't want to lose more than 2lbs a week....that would equal around 7,000 calories (3500per lb of fat).

But, if you are able to train at that intensity, you have to be in good shape. If you lose 2lbs a week it won't be all fat. You will lose serious muscle.

And in my experience, there were periods of time when i would play basketball almost everyday for at least 40mins. That was the slowest fat loss i have experienced. I certainly did not gain muscle during those periods.


would you say an hour at 65% MHR would be better?

would you say an hour at 65% MHR would be better?

Most people here don't agree with my take on it, but I think you'd be well off at a good 40-45 mins around 80% MHR. That includes a few mins to warm-up and a few to cool down. This is of course assuming it's not fasted, if it's fasted I'd probably try to keep it closer to 70-75% MHR.

I've always modeled my cardio after an article I read by Tom Venuto a while back and I still do.

Most people here don't agree with my take on it, but I think you'd be well off at a good 40-45 mins around 80% MHR. That includes a few mins to warm-up and a few to cool down. This is of course assuming it's not fasted, if it's fasted I'd probably try to keep it closer to 70-75% MHR.

I've always modeled my cardio after an article I read by Tom Venuto a while back and I still do.

yeah i was never a fan of the idea of fasted cardio. i have a protein shake w/ some ephedrine/cafeine

I question how hard you are really going and how you're determining heartrate. 85-90% heartrate for an hour is really intense. It's not something high level athletes do more than 1-2 times a week. Purely as a body composition issue, I see it as unecessary and counterproductive. But of course there are other reasons for intense workouts.

Just to put in my two cents...I also do about 60 mins at 85-90%, 4 times a week. I'm in okay cardiovascular shape, but I'm no superstar...could it be that the heartrate is so high because we're NOT in the best shape? I've heard that your heart rate will slow down if it's in really good shape.

found some interesting info at www.bodybuilding4u.com


"It's been a long-held belief that low-intensity cardio is the best way to burn fat. While this may be appropriate for beginners and is certainly more attractive for many casual exercisers, serious fitness trainers and athletes will reap greater benefits from training at a higher intensity. In fact, it is a myth that training in the so called 'fat-burning zone' (around 60-70% MHR) is optimal for fat burning.

The theory about the fat-burning zone came from a study that showed that low­intensity exercise burns a greater percentage of calories from fat than from carbohydrate. When high-intensity exercise is practiced, the percentage of fuel from carbohydrate is increased. However, the amount of fat burned is greater than or equal to that burned during low-intensity exercise. When it comes to fat loss it is not the proportion of each fuel metabolized but the total calorie expenditure that is most important. For the same workout time, you will burn more calories and more fat with high-intensity cardio. For example, walking (low-intensity cardio) for 60 minutes will burn about 270 kcal, of which approximately 60% (160 kcal) come from fat, while jogging (high-intensity cardio) for 60 minutes will burn about 680 kcal, of which approximately 40% (270 kcal) come from fat. Thus, the higher intensity exercise results in a greater fat loss over the same workout time. "

HOWEVER:

"More isn't always better, as excessive cardio can result in muscle breakdown and a loss of muscle size and strength. During cardio training, small amounts of protein can be used for energy, although the misconception that it significantly depletes muscle mass relates more directly to poor dietary habits.

The biggest problem is the combination of dieting - or an inadequate calorie intake - and excessive cardio. Dieters who go overboard with cardio training don't realize that a large proportion of their weight loss may be due to muscle loss. When the body doesn't get enough calories it draws upon its reserves, mainly in the form of fat but also from protein, which is found in muscle. Too much cardio takes calories away from muscle growth and you can end up literally canabalising your own muscle tissue to help your body meet its energy needs. That's the last thing a strength trainer wants."


so heres what i can conclude from that: as long as youre getting enough protein, pre/post/and thruout the day, doing 60 minutes of 80-85% MHR will not be all that damaging.

maybe a double-scoop protein shake pre and post workout will be needed.

that post always gets trotted out... bottom line is- listen to your body and do what works. I'm no beginer and 45 minutes fasted LISS works great for me. With higher heart rate and longer stretches I give up too much muscle, proper pwo nutrition or no.

Just to put in my two cents...I also do about 60 mins at 85-90%, 4 times a week. I'm in okay cardiovascular shape, but I'm no superstar...could it be that the heartrate is so high because we're NOT in the best shape? I've heard that your heart rate will slow down if it's in really good shape.

I think this is probably the case, though it depends obviously on the individual. For me, when I started doing fasted morning LISS regularly about 3 months ago in the 65-75% zone I basically could walk briskly on flat land and stay in the the zone. On even a slow incline I had to force myself to dial it down to almost a crawl just to stay around 70%. Now I have to walk at a brisk pace up an incline (the steeper the hill the better) and alternate jogging with walking every 30 seconds or so on the decline to stay around 70%. If I jog for more than a minute my heartrate shoots up to 80-85%. This is not a sign of being in great shape. I do LISS to burn fat -- that's what it's good for. Once I get my bodyfat sub 10% (13% and counting) I will start incorporating higher intensity cardio to improve my overall fitness.

bottom line is- listen to your body and do what works. I'm no beginner and 45 minutes fasted LISS works great for me..

Yup, I've lost 23 lbs. in the last 5 weeks doing this daily with an impeccable dietary approach (my SGX program) and my strength and muscle mass remains intact. :tucool:

~SC~

I think this is probably the case, though it depends obviously on the individual. For me, when I started doing fasted morning LISS regularly about 3 months ago in the 65-75% zone I basically could walk briskly on flat land and stay in the the zone. On even a slow incline I had to force myself to dial it down to almost a crawl just to stay around 70%. Now I have to walk at a brisk pace up an incline (the steeper the hill the better) and alternate jogging with walking every 30 seconds or so on the decline to stay around 70%. If I jog for more than a minute my heartrate shoots up to 80-85%. This is not a sign of being in great shape. I do LISS to burn fat -- that's what it's good for. Once I get my bodyfat sub 10% (13% and counting) I will start incorporating higher intensity cardio to improve my overall fitness.

Amen!!! Me too!

60 minutes at 85-90 percent of MHR is a good workout for a pure endurance athlete, but I'm convinced that there is no way to hold on to hard earned muscle if you do that workout. Just like a distance runner wouldn't train like a bodybuilder, someone trying to lose fat without losing muscle shouldn't train like a cyclist or distance runner.

If you don't mind burning muscle than that's great that you can handle that workout. But I would question your accuracy on your true MHR. Have you ever actually maxed out your Heart Rate? It may be higher than you think, which means you may be at 70-80 and not 80-85.

The 220-Age formula is completely arbitrary BTW. I'm 30 but I can get my HR up to 210 on an exercise bike if I go straight balls out and try to kill myself. So when I do 30 minutes at 170 BPM that's really just 80% of my Max and not 90% as the formula would indicate.

Yup, I've lost 23 lbs. in the last 5 weeks



BASTARD!!!! :claplow:

The 220-Age formula is completely arbitrary BTW.

ya know i never thought of that,ill try maxing out tomroow and see what i come up with

i did 60 minutes at 80-85% max HR today.

It's not that crazy. I do something that is sort of like that. If you go by the age formula, my MHR is 173. I can easily do an hour at 165, I frequently do - which would _seem_ to be over 90% of the MHR.

But the truth is, my MHR is higher than that formula suggests. So 165 isn't really 90% MHR. My MHR is probably a little over 190 (although I have seen the maximum heart rate on my monitor go as high as 217 I think that is just a transient few pulses and not any sort of sustained rate). I get to 185 for a few minutes every now and again if I am doing hard cardio, but I don't bother trying to sustain anything over 175. Sustaining 170 is nasty, and that is probably closer to my 90%.

I think your MHR is probably higher than you think. MHR is activity dependent. Did you measure your MHR on a cycle? It's different on the treadmill, and it's different for swimming.

If you want to know what to sustain for improving your cardio capability - which is the main point of high intensity cardio - then work out above your ventilation threshold. That means if you can easily talk, you aren't working hard enough. You better be huffing and puffing all the way. Note that this will be harder and harder intensity as you train because training over the ventilation threshold really does increase your capacity. But as your ventilation threshold goes up, just keep dialing up the exercise hard enough to keep it from easy breathing. Anything more isn't very important.

The only downside of working out at the ventilation threshold for more than an hour is that after about 90 minutes you might need to eat some carbs to protect the muscles in case you bonk.

You can also increase the VO2max by HIIT but you have to be sure to really absolutely murder yourself on the hard bits for that to work well. Banging away a a smidge over the ventilation threshold (which I guess we can call HISS) is easier to be sure that it's working. Plus you rack up more calories with HISS than HIIT, at least according to my experience.

Just to put in my two cents...I also do about 60 mins at 85-90%, 4 times a week. I'm in okay cardiovascular shape, but I'm no superstar...could it be that the heartrate is so high because we're NOT in the best shape? I've heard that your heart rate will slow down if it's in really good shape.

Resting heart-rate will go down. And output (typically measured as speed) for the same heartrate will improve. But the better shape you're in the longer you should be able maintain high intensity exercise. I suppose it's possible that you could go for an hour with that intensity if you're not in great shape. But I'm wondering how you are determining your heartrate.

The 220-Age formula is completely arbitrary BTW.

This is true. As a very basic formula, 220 - half your age is recommended for fit individuals.

This is true. As a very basic formula, 220 - half your age is recommended for fit individuals.
Sounds about right