I almost eat completely vegan, not counting the occasional trace egg or milk ingredients in veggie burgers and the like. In SwoleCat's thread he mentions that he thinks his program would not fly for a veggie.

I'm not discounting this, but I do think it's possible to get -bigger- on a non-meat & dairy diet. Very good case in point: Mike Mahler (http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/mahler_big_strong.htm).
A less good case in point: myself. Why less? Because I'm not too satisfied with the way I've been eating, too much soy, not enough whole foods, etc. However, I HAVE gained a lot of muscle and strength, so much that people around me who also train have noticed, and even asked me for my routines. My plan is to improve my diet to include more whole foods, and less soy, and prove at least that it is possible to get big as a veggie. I'm not going to prove I can get as big as Swole, because it's too big for my personal liking (although I do like it aesthetically speaking, like a nice painting or sculpture).

Maybe if this works out very well, we can offer Swole a nutrition guide for veggies, so he can help them get big as well. :D

Look at Jabba's photos - he is very muscular and BIG with low body fat and has been a long-term veg. I have been for most of my life and never had a problem gaining muscle. In fact, my tendency to pack it on used to upset me when I was much younger -- now I know better ;) While some Perhaps it is not 'ideal' but most of us are not training to be Mr. or Ms. Olympia ;)

Perhaps Mahler has posted his diet somewhere. That would definitely be interesting. For those that do eat dairy and eggs I see no reason they'd have ANY trouble packing on muscle.

Part of the misconception about veg diets comes from the HUGE number of people on them that eat absolute crap. For example, making nachos a daily routine and eating few vegetables :eek: I had a vegan friend that chain smoked and survived on tequila and potato chips for the most part. I mean a good 800+ cals a day from Tequila!

Also, many people have a visceral reaction to vegetarianism, assuming we all do it because we are moral purists or political activists. While that may be a motivation for many people, others may have noticed that they just feel and perform a lot better not eating meats. Personally, I hated it when I was young and always had an upset stomach. I feel great with my current diet which is very similar to the diets advocated here and elsewhere for 'claen eating'.

Part of the misconception about veg diets comes from the HUGE number of people on them that eat absolute crap. For example, making nachos a daily routine and eating few vegetables :eek: I had a vegan friend that chain smoked and survived on tequila and potato chips for the most part. I mean a good 800+ cals a day from Tequila!

Yup, I know the type of people. Actually, like I stated elsewhere, most famous vegans look like crap! :lol:

Also, many people have a visceral reaction to vegetarianism, assuming we all do it because we are moral purists or political activists.

Although I do it for moral reasons, I'm realistic enough to know that only a small percentage of people will change their mind because of me, and they'll refrain from doing so when I tell them they should. I think most 'fresh' vegetarians can be a bit pushy, but when I explain to them they'll only evoke a negative response, they usually settle down. ;)

I'm gonna drop by the grocery store tomorrow to see what kind of quinoa en amarynth stuff they've got.

Hey Wouter, sorry I missed your post and just caught it before going to bed. Here are a few articles to read up on. I don't think you can't gain muscle on a vegan or soy diet; it has certainly been done. I do think that animal product has been proven to be scientifically a more optimal approach. Pubmed has a few studies that have researched the whey vs. soy thing. The concern usually comes down to phytoestrogens and the crazy marketing and lobbying the soy industry has done to corrupt the USDA, FDA, and the public.


http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=AACA7A79A3CF5CBFAC7CB3C7CF 396743.hydra?id=461709

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=AACA7A79A3CF5CBFAC7CB3C7CF 396743.hydra?id=461006

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=AACA7A79A3CF5CBFAC7CB3C7CF 396743.hydra?id=459516



Yup, I know the type of people. Actually, like I stated elsewhere, most famous vegans look like crap! :lol:



Although I do it for moral reasons, I'm realistic enough to know that only a small percentage of people will change their mind because of me, and they'll refrain from doing so when I tell them they should. I think most 'fresh' vegetarians can be a bit pushy, but when I explain to them they'll only evoke a negative response, they usually settle down. ;)

I'm gonna drop by the grocery store tomorrow to see what kind of quinoa en amarynth stuff they've got.

Hey Wouter, sorry I missed your post and just caught it before going to bed. Here are a few articles to read up on. I don't think you can't gain muscle on a vegan or soy diet; it has certainly been done. I do think that animal product has been proven to be scientifically a more optimal approach. Pubmed has a few studies that have researched the whey vs. soy thing. The concern usually comes down to phytoestrogens and the crazy marketing and lobbying the soy industry has done to corrupt the USDA, FDA, and the public.

Although I'm not eating 300 grams of soy, these articles do persuade me to look into (more) different sources of protein. I've always thought that most high quality proteins are animal, so that's no news to me. However, you must know that even if I'd read that eating no animal products would cause me to die five years early, that would be a moral choice I'd be willing to make. So, in this case, gaining muscle less quickly than I would on animal proteins, is no argument for me to start eating animal products. Maybe it's easy for me, because I've seen such good gains, I dunno. ;)

Concerning the marketing and lobbying of the soy industry, that sucks. Once money becomes more important than correctly informing people, you're right there with Philip Morris, the dairy and meat industry and other bastards.

I'm right there with you. I was vegetarian for a number of years, and lived with a few people who were actually eating raw for a while. I know all the issues surrounding vegetarianisn/veganism, as well as organic, gmo, etc. I was a major soy eater for quite a while, and when someone alerted me to some of the issues, I realized fake meat was out. I guess I just missed it too much and went back to the real thing.

But what the market is led to believe it wants, it will get. It's unfortunate, but that's how capitalism works.



Although I'm not eating 300 grams of soy, these articles do persuade me to look into (more) different sources of protein. I've always thought that most high quality proteins are animal, so that's no news to me. However, you must know that even if I'd read that eating no animal products would cause me to die five years early, that would be a moral choice I'd be willing to make. So, in this case, gaining muscle less quickly than I would on animal proteins, is no argument for me to start eating animal products. Maybe it's easy for me, because I've seen such good gains, I dunno. ;)

Concerning the marketing and lobbying of the soy industry, that sucks. Once money becomes more important than correctly informing people, you're right there with Philip Morris, the dairy and meat industry and other bastards.

I'm right there with you. I was vegetarian for a number of years, and lived with a few people who were actually eating raw for a while.

*cough*beentheredonethat*cough* ;) Eleven months to be precise. I weigh about 50 pounds more right now, than I did back then. Maybe that's why I can get away with eating small amounts, my body absorbs EVERYTHING it gets. :lol:

I know all the issues surrounding vegetarianisn/veganism, as well as organic, gmo, etc. I was a major soy eater for quite a while, and when someone alerted me to some of the issues, I realized fake meat was out. I guess I just missed it too much and went back to the real thing.

I went back to wearing leather shoes because my friends were getting tired of the canvas look. Damn, I'm shallow. :lol:

But what the market is led to believe it wants, it will get. It's unfortunate, but that's how capitalism works.

Fortunately, we'll be backing people like John, Jeremy and Swole to get the right message across for stuff like weight loss and muscle gain. Hopefully we'll be able to get SOME market myths to disappear, like stupid dieting schemes, spot reduction and non-working workout machines.