I know this has been touched on in a number of previous threads, but I thought I'd start one that explicitly deals with a comparison b/w solid and liquid PWO nutrition.

From what I understand, liquid PWO shakes containing some form of simple sugars (dextrose, maltodextrin, gatorade...etc.) and whey protein are optimal because they get nutrients to your muscles the most quickly; in the post-workout state muscle recovery is urgent. Solid PWO meals and/or complex carbs are suboptimal because they take too long to digest, leaving your burning muscles in a catabolic state and limiting gains.

I'm of the opinion that too much emphasis is being placed on this sense of urgency post-workout, and that the simple-sugar/whey drink is a little too ubiqitous and becoming a bit dogmatic. Are your muscles really in such grave danger of atrophying if you don't guzzle a bunch of sugar? Granted, the almighty PWO shake is probably a godsend for anyone who's goal is to bulk up like a madman, fat be damned. But for anybody else, I don't see why something like a bowl of oatmeal and some whey or something similarly restrained would be so unacceptable.

Thoughts, anyone?

Just my opinion, but when I finish working out I'm pretty tired, and sitting down for a 'composed' meal isn't something I want to do so a PWO shake works better for me.

While I could write for quite some time on this subject, and quote a number of scientific studies that have successfully shown that a liquid post-workout containing protein and carbs speeds recovery, blunts catabolism, aids in anabolism, I'm going to bed. Instead, I'll give you two viewpoints to read.

First, any old John Berardi article, the pro side to liquid PWO. Nevermind his plugging of new supplements (Biotest's Surge, which is just whey hydrosylate, dex/malto, and BCAAs). He's written more recently on this, but here's a start:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/recupdate.htm

And here's the other side (which presents the other side, yet still suggests drinking a liquid PWO shake, and also nevermind his plugging of Biotest):

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=7C6A77A17CD25C97788C6C4BF1 DF0F90.hydra?id=659666

There's also pretty pictures of muscle girls working out.


The consensus: liquid post workout. The debate is in the details.

While I could write for quite some time on this subject, and quote a number of scientific studies that have successfully shown that a liquid post-workout containing protein and carbs speeds recovery, blunts catabolism, aids in anabolism, I'm going to bed. Instead, I'll give you two viewpoints to read.

First, any old John Berardi article, the pro side to liquid PWO. Nevermind his plugging of new supplements (Biotest's Surge, which is just whey hydrosylate, dex/malto, and BCAAs). He's written more recently on this, but here's a start:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/recupdate.htm

And here's the other side (which presents the other side, yet still suggests drinking a liquid PWO shake, and also nevermind his plugging of Biotest):

http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=7C6A77A17CD25C97788C6C4BF1 DF0F90.hydra?id=659666

There's also pretty pictures of muscle girls working out.


The consensus: liquid post workout. The debate is in the details.

I agree with tennisball. As a personal matter, I noticed improved recovery when I switched from solid to liquid PWO of protein and fast-acting carbs. This was some time ago. I was young and dumb and didn't understand the rationale, and I didn't know that better recovery was supposed to be one of the benefits. I had just heard that it was supposed to be better. Not to say that a solid meal precludes progress by any means. It doesn't. I just don't think it's optimal.

I know this has been touched on in a number of previous threads, but I thought I'd start one that explicitly deals with a comparison b/w solid and liquid PWO nutrition.

From what I understand, liquid PWO shakes containing some form of simple sugars (dextrose, maltodextrin, gatorade...etc.) and whey protein are optimal because they get nutrients to your muscles the most quickly; in the post-workout state muscle recovery is urgent. Solid PWO meals and/or complex carbs are suboptimal because they take too long to digest, leaving your burning muscles in a catabolic state and limiting gains.

I'm of the opinion that too much emphasis is being placed on this sense of urgency post-workout, and that the simple-sugar/whey drink is a little too ubiqitous and becoming a bit dogmatic. Are your muscles really in such grave danger of atrophying if you don't guzzle a bunch of sugar? Granted, the almighty PWO shake is probably a godsend for anyone who's goal is to bulk up like a madman, fat be damned. But for anybody else, I don't see why something like a bowl of oatmeal and some whey or something similarly restrained would be so unacceptable.

Thoughts, anyone?



The science behind it is nothing new. Dr. Lowery did a study on it about 5 years ago, and his was not the first, but one that everyone copies. Basically, the idea is that your muscles need replenishment (specifically, glycogen replacement) after a hard workout. The idea of adding quick absorbing whey to the glycogen is that it tags along for the ride: your muscles are more receptive to glycogen and protein uptake at that point.

The short answer is that it works, but is NOT essential and it is not for everyone. I have been using dex for two years, but I built my body without it, as have thousands of other bodybuilders. If they outlawed dextrose and malto tomorrow, I would go right on getting bigger and stronger without it. So could everyone else here if they knew how to carbohydrate load and how the body stores glycogen.

The most glycogen the human body can store is about 350 grams and we do not expend anywhere near that in a 45 minute to 1 hour workout. Catabolism does not occur until your glycogen reserves are gone. So if someone eats a carb rich meal one hour prior to workout, works out hard for an hour, then eats a meal of carbs and protein after their workout, will catabolism occur? No possible way, unless their life is completely devoid of carbs and they are working out on an empty tank. I have read that the ‘window of opportunity” is anywhere between one to three hours and beyond, depending on who you believe. Lowery says it is three, which means you have three hours from your last carb rich meal to reload with carbs. Until then, no breakdown can occur, IF you have some reserves in your tank.

People who eat a lot of simple carbs, people who do not workout intensely and people who are overweight do NOT need to use a PWO drink with dex. In fact, Lowery found the opposite in his study. He found that overweight people should refrain from carbs prior to workout and eat a protein/fat meal. PWO they should have protein/carbs.

So it works, yes. The science behind it is older than Gatorade. But I think you are right in that has become so over-hyped that many bodybuilders blindly follow its dogma like Moses had preached it, when some don’t need it. I always tell people to let their waist line be their guide line: if they have an impeccable diet an find themselves getting fatter, then cut back on the dex, or cut it out completely.

Swole, I agree with everything you said except for dex contributing to fat gains. Physiologically, there's no reason why fast-acting carbs post-workout should lead to fat gain anymore easily than complex carbs. For those who are experiencing problems, it's beause their overall calories are out-of-whack. I've never known anyone to benefit in terms of body composition by switching away from fast-acting carbs and keeping calories the same.

Swole, I agree with everything you said except for dex contributing to fat gains. Physiologically, there's no reason why fast-acting carbs post-workout should lead to fat gain anymore easily than complex carbs. For those who are experiencing problems, it's beause their overall calories are out-of-whack. I've never known anyone to benefit in terms of body composition by switching away from fast-acting carbs and keeping calories the same.




Excess glycogen is stored as fat. If your body does not utilize the dex ingested PWO immediately by either (1) replenishing your glycogen stores, or (2) as energy, it is stored as fat by raising your triglycerides. Excess sugar (simple sugar) is directly related to increased triglycerides, the absolute worse, most unhealthy kind of fat. As you probably know, high triglycerides is a leading cause of coronary heart disease.

Let’s say someone can store the maximum in their body, or 350 grams of glycogen. They then do a workout and expend 50 grams of glycogen. Then, PWO, they drink a dex/protein drink that includes 100 grams of dex. The excess 50 grams (350-50+100=400. 400-350 = 50 grams excess) can’t be stored; because your muscles are full. What I am saying is that if that excess 50 grams is not expended, it will to turn to fat. Simple sugar = insulin spike. Insulin spike not used as glycogen = increased triglycerides.

Now that situation would probably not happen to you, but I can see it happening to someone who does not work out intensely. Think of the person who has that drink, then sits down with a meal that has even more simple carbs. So instead of getting an excess 50 grams, they might add another 100 in simple carbs on top of that. Hopefully, this would not happen to most people on this board, but I can see it happening to someone who is overweight, or someone who has poor dietary habits, or someone who does not work out intensely.

I have to disagree with a few points you made here. Our knowledge of the physiology behind muscle catabolism and anabolism is older than Dr. Lowery and John Berardi. Catabolism of course can and does occur before glycogen stores are depleted. My understanding, while I'm not an endocrinologist, is that when your body is subjected to certain traumas (say, for instance, weight lifting) your adrenal glands secret our enemy cortisol. Cortisol breaks down muscle tissue into amino acids for conversion in the liver to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis. We want to stop cortisol secretion and muscle catabolism by raising insulin levels. That's what the simple sugars (in our example, dextrose) are ingested for. We want insulin levels raised to create an anti-catabolic state, and we want to create an anabolic state with the ingestion of protein. The science behind the "window of opportunity" is now pretty suspect, since new data have shown that, if a quick recovery isn't needed, the "window" could be as long as 24 hours.



The science behind it is nothing new. Dr. Lowery did a study on it about 5 years ago, and his was not the first, but one that everyone copies. Basically, the idea is that your muscles need replenishment (specifically, glycogen replacement) after a hard workout. The idea of adding quick absorbing whey to the glycogen is that it tags along for the ride: your muscles are more receptive to glycogen and protein uptake at that point.

The short answer is that it works, but is NOT essential and it is not for everyone. I have been using dex for two years, but I built my body without it, as have thousands of other bodybuilders. If they outlawed dextrose and malto tomorrow, I would go right on getting bigger and stronger without it. So could everyone else here if they knew how to carbohydrate load and how the body stores glycogen.

The most glycogen the human body can store is about 350 grams and we do not expend anywhere near that in a 45 minute to 1 hour workout. Catabolism does not occur until your glycogen reserves are gone. So if someone eats a carb rich meal one hour prior to workout, works out hard for an hour, then eats a meal of carbs and protein after their workout, will catabolism occur? No possible way, unless their life is completely devoid of carbs and they are working out on an empty tank. I have read that the ‘window of opportunity” is anywhere between one to three hours and beyond, depending on who you believe. Lowery says it is three, which means you have three hours from your last carb rich meal to reload with carbs. Until then, no breakdown can occur, IF you have some reserves in your tank.

People who eat a lot of simple carbs, people who do not workout intensely and people who are overweight do NOT need to use a PWO drink with dex. In fact, Lowery found the opposite in his study. He found that overweight people should refrain from carbs prior to workout and eat a protein/fat meal. PWO they should have protein/carbs.

So it works, yes. The science behind it is older than Gatorade. But I think you are right in that has become so over-hyped that many bodybuilders blindly follow its dogma like Moses had preached it, when some don’t need it. I always tell people to let their waist line be their guide line: if they have an impeccable diet an find themselves getting fatter, then cut back on the dex, or cut it out completely.

I have to disagree with a few points you made here. Our knowledge of the physiology behind muscle catabolism and anabolism is older than Dr. Lowery and John Berardi. Catabolism of course can and does occur before glycogen stores are depleted. My understanding, while I'm not an endocrinologist, is that when your body is subjected to certain traumas (say, for instance, weight lifting) your adrenal glands secret our enemy cortisol. Cortisol breaks down muscle tissue into amino acids for conversion in the liver to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis. We want to stop cortisol secretion and muscle catabolism by raising insulin levels. That's what the simple sugars (in our example, dextrose) are ingested for. We want insulin levels raised to create an anti-catabolic state, and we want to create an anabolic state with the ingestion of protein. The science behind the "window of opportunity" is now pretty suspect, since new data have shown that, if a quick recovery isn't needed, the "window" could be as long as 24 hours.

Exactly the point I was trying to raise; the "window of opportunity" and its friend the hastily and unquestioningly consumed high GI supplement shake. I've seen Berardi write over and over again in articles that if you aren't consuming a whey/high GI PWO shake (and if you're really serious, nothing less than Surge will do the job), then you've basically wasted the hour you've spent in the gym. I find that hard to believe. The cynic in me sees a lot of elbow-rubbing between the ubiquitous PWO shake, the science advocating it, and the supplement industry.

All the studies I've read have focused on the relationship among catabolism, cortisol, and insulin, and the relative speed of various post-workout nutrient choices, which is all well and good, but are there any studies that show that people who consume PWO shakes vs. eating solid food gain more/lose less muscle than those who don't? And, to ask the reverse of jsbrook's point, do you guys know anyone who benefited from switching to fast-acting carbs from a solid post-workout meal and making no other nutrition and/or exercise changes?

I have to disagree with a few points you made here. Our knowledge of the physiology behind muscle catabolism and anabolism is older than Dr. Lowery and John Berardi. Catabolism of course can and does occur before glycogen stores are depleted. My understanding, while I'm not an endocrinologist, is that when your body is subjected to certain traumas (say, for instance, weight lifting) your adrenal glands secret our enemy cortisol. Cortisol breaks down muscle tissue into amino acids for conversion in the liver to glucose in a process called gluconeogenesis. We want to stop cortisol secretion and muscle catabolism by raising insulin levels. That's what the simple sugars (in our example, dextrose) are ingested for. We want insulin levels raised to create an anti-catabolic state, and we want to create an anabolic state with the ingestion of protein. The science behind the "window of opportunity" is now pretty suspect, since new data have shown that, if a quick recovery isn't needed, the "window" could be as long as 24 hours.





Maintaining one’s carb and protein intake in relation to exercise is critical, and I believe it can be achieved by more than one means, something Berardi did not mention. The point I made to Dodus is that dextrose is not essential, because the same results can be achieved by carb manipulation. I achieved my results (as have thousands of others) before the dex drink became all the rage. I also made the point that dextrose?protein PWO does work, but is not for everyone and mentioned some dangers, which Berardi failed to do.

Yes, weightlifting can begin catabolism before glycogen stores are depleted, but that does not mean it will continue to the point of any significance and that is what I was talking about. Catabolism can be blunted, or stopped immediately, by using carbs (and not necessarily just dextrose and malto!) and protein. If catabolism could not be stopped or blunted, you or I would not be able to do a second workout, or we would be very weak. The fact that we are stronger (at least I am) for our next workout means that my catabolism has been stopped and reversed. It really does not matter whether the “window of opportunity” is one hour or twenty-four. What really matters is that our muscles get the necessary carbs and protein before significant catabolism occurs, whenever that may be. Personally, I eat every three hours, plus immediately PWO, so the mystical window is a non-issue to me, because I am preventing catabolism and promoting anabolism with my dietary habits. I could go right on doing so without dex and malto, too.

Muscle catabolism occurs when the body does not have adequate fuel to support energy and nutrient needs, and muscle fiber is sacrificed for its amino acids. You can eat to prevent that. The point I was making to Dodus is that to prevent your body from going catabolic, you can do it with dietary carbs. Keeping glycogen levels high from dietary carbs can prevent muscle tissue breakdown. It is all about proper loading and timing, not dex or malto.

O.K. Now that you've successfully confused the shit out of me please put it in laymans terms. PWO nutrition - good or useless?

O.K. Now that you've successfully confused the shit out of me please put it in laymans terms. PWO nutrition - good or useless?




Good.

Here, read this. There is a lot more, but this is a good start:



The Importance of Timed Eating
Lonnie M. Lowery, Ph.D. and Elzi Volk, M.S.


Does it matter when you eat? Can you take advantage of particularly anabolic times throughout the day or avoid those periods when you're more likely to lay down body fat? You may be surprised to hear that the answer is YES!

What you eat and when you consume it matters a lot. By focusing upon different macronutrients (proteins, carbs, fats) as the day progresses, you just might be able to have fuller-looking muscles and a smaller gut (or butt). Think we're full of it? We’ll review 10 facts in this article and its successor, starting with these five...

FACT 1:
A person has about one-three hours to take advantage of the "post workout nutrient window"

FACT 2:
Eating protein as well as carbohydrate shortly after exercise increases (muscle) protein synthesis and slows its degradation.

FACT 3:
Glucose tolerance worsens as the day progresses

FACT 4:
The body becomes catabolic during sleep, in part due to the extended fasting.

FACT 5:
Proteins with faster digestion are more anabolic.

Let's see how we can take advantage of these important findings, shall we?

Fact 1: Post-workout nutrient window.

First, let's address the post-workout nutrient window. It used to be called the "post-workout carbohydrate window", but recent research has altered that view a bit. Basically, for a period of 1-3 hours after exercise, muscles are "greedy" for carbohydrates for reasons involving intracellular enzymes and glucose transporters. Consuming 0.7 to 1.6 g/ kg of total body weight (0.3-0.73 g/ lb TBW), or roughly 50-100 grams,6, 8,15 of rapidly digested and absorbed (high glycemic index) carbs during this window of opportunity is critical if you want to keep your muscles optimized for recovery and full looking. Keeping glycogen levels (formed from dietary carbs) high also appears to prevent (muscle) tissue breakdown, or “catabolism”.

Training intensely, especially if you use negatives (eccentric contractions), makes it even more important to take advantage of the post-workout nutrient window. Why? Because the resulting muscle damage may hurt your muscles' ability to "soak up" the carbs after several hours pass and soreness sets in. (More on this in Part 2.) You want to refill muscle glycogen before this occurs which means taking in carbs as soon as possible after training.

It’s generally a good idea to get plenty of carbs in right after training - even if you're avoiding them the rest of the day! In fact, additional small feedings of carbs after training may enhance repletion of glycogen in muscle tissue.

Fact 2: Protein is important, too.

Although carbs were always thought to be 'top dog' for recovery, recent research shows that protein is just as important. New data from the renown Mark Tarnopolsky’s group at McMaster University, Ontario, Canada, reveals that increasing amino acid availability along with the circulating glucose can improve protein accretion (“non-oxidative leucine disposal”) following training. This was supported by data from Lonnie's "other lab" at Kent, the Applied Physiology Laboratory. It was here that colleague Phil Appicelli (see CreaRibose Research update) found similar results. And still more data agrees. All these data confirm the benefits of combining protein with one’s carbs.

In fact, protein alone is important for recovery. The ingestion of either 40 g mixed amino acids (17 different ones) or essential amino acids (10 different ones) about zero to three hours post-exercise have been shown to change the net protein degradation experienced by weight trainers to net protein synthesis.

Based on available data, you should eat perhaps 25-50 g of protein with your post-workout carbs. Since protein synthesis continues and peaks at about 24-36 hours after training,it's important to keep a steady supply of amino acids coming into your system by having small amounts of protein with each meal. Also, some of the recent research indicates that ingesting some protein before training may enhance protein synthesis afterward. Overall, it’s becoming pretty clear that eating protein with your carbs before, during, and after exercise is the ticket to increased muscle mass.

Fact 3: Glucose tolerance is better earlier in the day.

Your body's ability to handle dietary carbohydrate, in terms of keeping blood glucose within (low-to-mid) normal levels, fluctuates throughout the day. Of course, whatever the type of carbohydrate you eat, increased blood glucose is the result. Humans don’t have blood starch, fructose, or sucrose per se. These carbohydrates are digested (hydrolyzed) and absorbed as glucose. The balance of glucose supply and glucose utilization tightly controls normal levels of blood glucose, and insulin plays a key role in this process. Insulin inhibits glucose production/ release by the liver (where it is stored and manufactured) and stimulates glucose uptake by insulin sensitive tissues, such as muscle and adipose (body fat) tissues. However, just as in many of our hormone patterns, 24-hour variations occur in the overall glucose control system.

Many studies have shown that the blood glucose response to oral glucose and mixed meals (proteins, various carbs and fats) varies according to the time of day. Glucose levels are higher in the late afternoon and into the first half of the night. Some studies have suggested that these effects may be greater as we age, and are more prevalent in women than men. Researchers have gone so far as to described evening glucose tolerance in normal individuals as equivalent to mild diabetes! Wow!

Several mechanisms may explain the diurnal (time of day) variation in glucose tolerance. Insulin sensitivity is generally higher (better) in the morning and lower in the evening. Tissues like muscle appear to decrease their ability to take-up glucose later in the day. These morning-to-evening differences in glucose tolerance may possibly be due to changes in hormones and variations in the nervous system.

As a consequence, tolerance to carbohydrate-rich meals declines as the day progresses. Eating low fat carb foods earlier in the day and reducing the carb content in meals as the day progresses may help to keep blood glucose better modulated. Over time, reduced body fat and fewer health problems (e.g. Syndrome X) may be the outcome. More research is necessary and of course kcal intake throughout the day is a consideration, but the literature is suggestive that evening carb reduction may be beneficial.

Fact 4: Nighttime shake can prevent muscle breakdown.

Each of us typically sleeps for a period of 6 to 9 hours, during which time our bodies enter the fasted state (because of the lack of food). Our bodies must therefore intervene to maintain stable glucose levels during this time. That glucose can come from various sources, depending on glycogen stores in several tissues: primarily glycogen stored in the liver. Hepatic (liver) cells have an enzyme called glucose-6-phosphatase that allows them to donate their glycogen/ glucose to keep blood glucose normal – and you alive – as you snooze for eight hours. As hepatic glycogen becomes depleted throughout the night, the body can start breaking down protein to make more glucose. Cortisol, which breaks down muscle tissue, and insulin, which isn’t around (much) to preserve it at this time, play important roles here.

By the way, if you train first thing in the morning without eating, reduced levels of liver glycogen may cause increased protein breakdown, so that your body can maintain blood glucose. Cortisol levels are high upon waking as it is. If you train first thing and your goal is maintained/ increased muscle mass, it's best to eat something (a small amount of carbs and protein) to avoid this. Eating before early morning exercise, conversely, could dampen fat loss. Thus, it depends on your goals.

If training before bedtime, a nighttime shake of mixed protein sources and some carbs should help prevent catabolism of muscle and enhance recovery while sleeping. The effects of exercise are likely to supersede the evening difficulties with glucose tolerance mentioned earlier. Admittedly, this is largely speculative at this point. Preventing sleep/ fasting-induced catabolism via dietary means is, in any case, an often-overlooked concept. Some athletes even go so far as to set an alarm and consume a late-night protein shake.


Fact 5: Easily digestible proteins are more anabolic.

Dietary protein digestion/ absorption rate can also affect protein deposition in the body, and thus muscle growth. Proteins that are rapidly digestible, such as whey, replenish the amino acid pool in the body quickly, supplying all the building blocks required for protein synthesis. This makes whey ideal for recovery and growth in your post-workout shake, to get amino acids to the just-worked muscles as soon as possible.

At this point, we’ve reviewed a number of issues emphasizing the critical timing of nutrient intake. As Dr. Peter Lemon notes in the recent text, Sports Supplements: “Areas that need to be clarified involve not only which nutrients/ compounds affect the anabolic response induced by strength exercise, but also the best timing of intake relative to strength exercise…” Check back next month to learn more details on the five nutrient timing concepts discussed here as well as five more that round out our discussion.

The clock is still ticking. Last time we cited some fascinating and applicable research on how to take advantage of particularly anabolic times throughout the day. We also pointed out periods and dietary situations in which you are at greater risk of muscle loss and fat gain. Ready for more? Let's review the final five facts on our nutrient timing “top ten”...

FACT 6:
Proteins with slower digestion are anti-catabolic.

FACT 7:
Carbohydrates that raise blood glucose rapidly (high glycemic index) are best immediately post-exercise.

FACT 8:
Sore, damaged muscles resist glucose uptake.

FACT 9:
Carbohydrates may blunt the GH response to exercise, as fat does.

FACT 10:
Carbohydrates eaten before/ during training can reduce muscle catabolism but also blunt lipolysis (fat breakdown).

Let's see how we can take advantage of these important findings, shall we?


Fact 6: “Slower” proteins inhibit protein breakdown.

Proteins that digest/ absorb more slowly, such as casein and most other dietary proteins, provide the body with amino acids gradually, over a longer period of time. One study showed that whole body protein breakdown was inhibited more (for several hours) after ingesting casein, but whole body protein synthesis was stimulated to a lesser degree than with ingestion of whey protein.(Dangin) This may make casein (and other dietary proteins) a better choice for other times during the day, to provide the body with a steady supply of amino acids.

Fact 7: High-glycemic carbs are best for post-exercise.

Considering the post-workout window of opportunity summarized in Fact 1, the best carbs to ingest right after training are those that are quickly digestible. High glycemic index (GI) carbs, such as glucose, glucose polymers or sucrose, are much more effective at stimulating glycogen resynthesis in the muscle tissue than fructose and other low-glycemic sources of carbs.(Ivy) The slower digestion and absorption of low-GI carbs delay the availability of glucose to the just worked muscle tissue.(Burke)

Fact 8: Muscle damage can blunt glucose uptake.

While the eccentric (lowering) portion of weight training exercises appears to be associated with muscle growth, too much could actually hinder growth. High intensity weight lifting that results in significant amounts of damage can reduce glucose uptake into the muscle and blunt glycogen accumulation. Data from the Human Performance Lab at Ball State University showed that glycogen levels were the same at 6 hours in the control and the exercised muscles of eccentrically trained men. (Widrick) However, at 24 and 72 hours, the eccentrically trained muscles contained significantly less glycogen than the control muscles. This fact is supported by data from the Human Nutrition Lab at Kent State. These data suggest that the athletes who get more sore and damaged from eccentric training (as assessed by higher creatine kinase spillage into the blood) are the ones who secrete more insulin to deal with an oral glucose tolerance test.(Sexton and Lowery) This is presumably a result of (relatively) glucose intolerant damaged muscles. Newer data from this lab also suggests that fasting insulin concentrations tend to be slightly higher in sore athletes - again revealing some difficulty handling dietary carbohydrate.

As mentioned, an emphasis on eccentric exercise often results in delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS), as well as causing damage to the muscle cell membrane. This damage alters glucose uptake into the muscle, which affects glycogen resynthesis. The time course of reduced muscle glycogen recompensation parallels that of the development of DOMS. In addition to cell membrane damage, the inflammatory response that accompanies soreness may also impair insulin binding. Furthermore, Doyle et al. of the Exercise Physiology Lab at Ohio State University showed a decrease in the enzyme, glycogen synthase, in eccentrically trained muscles compared to the concentrically trained.(Doyle) This enzyme is involved in synthesis of glycogen from glucose, and thus likely contributes to the reduction in glycogen replenishment.

Therefore, all of these effects of eccentric induced muscle damage may lead to impaired glucose uptake and glycogen resynthesis, which can harm both recovery and growth following training. If you train to the point of intense soreness in an effort to induce serious growth, allow a 5-7 day recovery period and perhaps reduce carb intake during periods of whole-body DOMS.

Fact 9: Carbs may blunt the GH response; fat does.

Although the scientific literature is equivocal and often misinterpreted, there may be some suppression of GH release when carbohydrate is consumed (Davies, Giustina, Jenkins) even prior to/ during exercise. (Bonen) Yet this isn't always found. (Cappon) Timing is critical, as a carb (and protein) meal could conceivably lead to hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) 60-90 minutes after ingestion and end up raising GH levels. This has, in fact, been demonstrated post-exercise. This scenario, where blood sugar is purposely driven downwards during an “insulin overshoot” would not be advisable immediately prior to training. It could cause fatigue. And lastly, a high fat pre-exercise meal has been shown to drop GH release by over 50% (Cappon), so those looking for GH release may want to avoid this.

Thus, if one is desirous of maximal somaotropin (GH) stimulation via exercise, especially to garner its lipolytic (fat burning) effects, it may be best to avoid carbohydrate for about two hours beforehand. Again, the literature is not 100% on this issue so some trainers may opt for the sense of fullness and energy that a light meal can bring, before heading to the gym.

Fact 10: Carbs will spare muscle but also spare fat.

Just as consuming nutrients, such as carbs or protein, can alter hormone concentrations at any time, they also influence the hormonal response to exercise. Exercise uses a mixture of fuel, such as stored glycogen, some blood glucose, and fat. When glycogen and blood glucose are lowered, the body relies more on fat for fuel and vice versa. It seems intuitive that the body would readily dip into it’s fat reserves when there is little else to “burn” metabolically. It also makes sense that the body would shy away from carbohydrate as a metabolic fuel when there is little to spare. Many exercisers put this knowledge to work, exercising fasted, upon rising in an attempt to enhance the total grams of fat lost.

But what if you’re already lean? What if your goal is to gain sheer weight with little regard for fat loss? This is a valid desire of many ectomorphic (thin) “hard gainers”. In this case, one’s strategy is nearly opposite to the one described above. Hard gainers care little that carb intake blunts lipolysis. The truth is, dietary carb (and protein) consumption prior to, during, and after exercise is generally good for muscle gain. Purposely timing carb intake around one’s training bout elevates blood glucose and insulin concentrations while reducing cortisol and interleukin-6, all of which help prevent muscle breakdown. (Deuster, Mitchel, Murray, Nieman)

Manipulating the ingestion of carbs in relation to exercise, therefore, is critical to reach one’s goals whether they are to lean out or bulk up. Perhaps the best approach is to vary the strategy throughout the year. Many athletes undertake a “mass building phase” in the Fall but switch to a “cutting phase” in Spring/ Summer.

So there you have it, a short but well-referenced treatise on nutrient timing. Now it’s time to put this new understanding to work and break out of that plateau in your physique development.

Good luck.

Thanx tons. Actually i've read that article before. It's just one more opinion. NO?

Thanx tons. Actually i've read that article before. It's just one more opinion. NO?




Yup.


Like the saying goes, opinions are like an a--hole. Everyone has one.

Information and opinions can be useful, however.

[QUOTE=swole]Yup.


Like the saying goes, opinions are like an a--hole. Everyone has one.



Yeah - and most of them stink!!!!! Get it?

[QUOTE=swole]Yup.


Like the saying goes, opinions are like an a--hole. Everyone has one.



Yeah - and most of them stink!!!!! Get it?





LOL!

Well, I have not explored most of the opinions out there, nor have I explored most of the............... nevermind, I won't go there.

That was a lot of reading..phew! Can someone explain what kind of carbs ie food items are good PWO ?

I generally have about 50g Whey protein in a glass of skim milk and a banana. Is this enough protein/carbs for recovery?

That was a lot of reading..phew! Can someone explain what kind of carbs ie food items are good PWO ?

I generally have about 50g Whey protein in a glass of skim milk and a banana. Is this enough protein/carbs for recovery?



Go with the fast acting carbs with your protein for PWO. Dextrose or a combination of Malto/Dextrose with protein and water.

One to three hours after your PWO drink, have a regular meal: a protein, complex carbs (veggies, all you want) and maybe one or two servings of a moderate carb: small yam or brown rice.

The banana is best used at a different time. I sometimes do them pre-workout with oats and protein, or alone, depending on how hungry I am. Sorry all you fructose and lactose Natzis, but pre workout today I threw all this in a blender and drank it down: milk, whey, banana and whole raw oats.

Swole, I see what your saying. I think a dex/malto/whey shake is optimal for anyone who's done an intense workout. Merely being overweight should not invaldiate this. But having a half-assed workout would. As said before though, solid food as opposed to liquid PWO does not preclude progress by any means.

Go with the fast acting carbs with your protein for PWO. Dextrose or a combination of Malto/Dextrose with protein and water.

One to three hours after your PWO drink, have a regular meal: a protein, complex carbs (veggies, all you want) and maybe one or two servings of a moderate carb: small yam or brown rice.

The banana is best used at a different time. I sometimes do them pre-workout with oats and protein, or alone, depending on how hungry I am. Sorry all you fructose and lactose Natzis, but pre workout today I threw all this in a blender and drank it down: milk, whey, banana and whole raw oats.

Thank you. I think I am currently missing the carbs in my PWO drink.

I will order some dextrose/maltodextrin soon. I plan to buy at my local GNC. Any better suggestions on where to buy it from? Also do you recommend maltodextrin over dextrose? I am currently cutting.

Thank you. I think I am currently missing the carbs in my PWO drink.

I will order some dextrose/maltodextrin soon. I plan to buy at my local GNC. Any better suggestions on where to buy it from? Also do you recommend maltodextrin over dextrose? I am currently cutting.




Well, if you are going to buy it, then SOS - support our sponsors. Kent Nutrition has it. I am not sure if any others carry it, you may want to check.

FWIW, my own discussion has led me to discontinue its use for a while. I am going back to my old ways of carb loading pre and post workout to see if I notice any changes.

I am a continuing experiment in the study of nutrition. Fortunately, I just do it on my body. :)

Any recommendations on whether to go dextrose or maltodextrin? And I hope this is safe to use when cutting.

Thank you. I think I am currently missing the carbs in my PWO drink.

I will order some dextrose/maltodextrin soon. I plan to buy at my local GNC. Any better suggestions on where to buy it from? Also do you recommend maltodextrin over dextrose? I am currently cutting.


Bad news my friend. GNC doesn't carry it. As a matter of fact when I inquired about it at the local GNC here they didn't know what I was talking about!!!

Any recommendations on whether to go dextrose or maltodextrin? And I hope this is safe to use when cutting.




No recommendations from me there.

I used just dextrose, but many others use both. My thinking was that the GI of blood glycogen equals 100. The GI of dextrose also equals 100. That was good enough for what I wanted it to accomplish. Whether it did or not optimally is for another discussion.

Maybe some others will chime in.

Any recommendations on whether to go dextrose or maltodextrin? And I hope this is safe to use when cutting.

I recommend both. 1 part dextrose to 1 part malto to 1 part whey. Get dextrose from kent nutrition. Malto from bodybuilding.com. And whey from All the Whey. I get hyrolyzed and don't really mind the taste. It's not quite as good, but you could get whey isolate if you wish.