Well, my wife wants to start getting into shape. She is 29 years old, 5'3", 104LBS. She has "played" at the gym before but nothing serious. I have been looking over this board for some workouts for her and got a lot of help (thanks).

She is not fat as you can see from her specs, but she does carry a lot of her weight on her legs, butt, & upper arms. If anything she needs to tone (replace that inactive fat with active muscle, I think, not very wise in women's fitness).

The problem is that she is convinced that by lifting she will look like a female body builder as seen on TV. How can I convince her otherwise.

She plans on joining a gym that offers free PM jazz dance classes for cardio & lifting in the AM.

Disclaimer: In my eyes she looks great. This is all her idea. She has seen my results and has become motivated.

Tell her if she starts to become bulky she can quit ;) Or ask her to show you a single woman at the gym who is bulky. Assuming there are no steroid-ridden bodybuilders there she'll figure it out. I'd say I put on muscle more than the average woman, but I only start to look bulky if I have too much fat over them, so I am quite certain your wife will be delighted once she tries working out for a month and sees the results :tu:

Oh Maggie... did I not say I'd puke this up at some point?

A friend and personal trainer stated something recently that should be obvious to us but in truth, really isn't all that intuitive. He said... that there is absolutely no difference between muscle fibers in men and muscle fibers in women. The minor exception to that statement would be that women have more slow-twitch fibers than males, meaning their bodies lend themselves more to endurance than strength/size. Weight training for women is much more likely to develop tone and definition than physical size as a male would due to higher estrogen content in females. Hormones are what separate the sexes from a training standpoint, and the chemical composition of the female sex does not lend itself to creating physical muscular size.

Unless she injects herself with bovine growth hormone. Just convince her to try it for a month - not some half-assed effort, really try weight training and proper nutrition for a month and see what happens. Betcha cash money she likes the results.

-R

The only thing to do is get her to try. Then she will see for herself. She aint going to do one gym session and then wake up lookining like the Dorian Yates. It doesnt happen to men, it certainly wont happen to a woman.

Find pics on the internet of fitness models and their workout plans and show her them (if you dont think she would bust your balls for doing so). Bodybuilding.com has tons of fitness models pics and workouts, they all do weights and non of them look bulky.

here is a GREAT example of a woman who works out a LOT and is not bulky and huge.. .Minna Lessig is haaawwwwt

Minna Lessig's home page (http://www.minnalessig.com/Photos.asp)

As already mentioned, ask her to see how many women in your gym are like that. Very few. it takes years of hard core working out to get to that point. Surely she knows from your weight lifting that muscle never flies on overnight, so why would she think that one set of bis and suddenly she's got 16" arms?

This is another one of those myths that are simply infuriating to me! I know a lot of women have this worry, though.

As already mentioned, ask her to see how many women in your gym are like that. Very few. it takes years of hard core working out to get to that point. Surely she knows from your weight lifting that muscle never flies on overnight, so why would she think that one set of bis and suddenly she's got 16" arms?

This is another one of those myths that are simply infuriating to me! I know a lot of women have this worry, though.

yea.. this is unfortunately a well circulated myth... only about 1% (at most) of all the women in the entire world have the genetics (and probably a bit of extra testosterone) to build big bulky muscles... the other 99% of women will just look toned and nice if they lift heavy and drop the fat... it sounds like she has almost no fat already if she's only 105lbs... if she started lifting heavy she would develope a really nice shape. ;)

the women who start to look like men and compete in professional body building competitions take hormones/steroids to get that big

here is a GREAT example of a woman who works out a LOT and is not bulky and huge.. .Minna Lessig is haaawwwwt

Minna Lessig's home page (http://www.minnalessig.com/Photos.asp)

omg!!! hell yea she is!!! is should book mark that page.

tell your wife I only wish women could get bigger then we'd be burning so many calories during rest we wouldn't have to work out as hard as most men!!

here is a GREAT example of a woman who works out a LOT and is not bulky and huge.. .Minna Lessig is haaawwwwt

Minna Lessig's home page (http://www.minnalessig.com/Photos.asp)

OMG!!! She looks amazing!!!
http://www.minnalessig.com/img0050.asp
I think I will make a wallpaper out of this for inspiration!!!

This is the best article I have ever read regarding women and strength training, I'm sure its probally been posted around JSF before but...


Women and Iron
by Elzi Volk


Too often and much to my dismay, I hear women protest against using any appreciable weight in their weight training program. Moreover, many young women completely refrain from resistance training; instead spending countless hours on the cardio deck in a fruitless effort to attain an ideal physique. What is the ideal physique and why are women so afraid of lifting a dumbbell that isn’t pink or red? The answer to the first question lies in a complex paradox of social and cultural influences. In answer to the second question, many women believe lifting weights will make them explode with bulging muscles. Another reason is women believe they cannot lift anything heavier than their makeup case. These are unfortunate idiosyncratic fallacies amongst women. Generally speaking, women fear muscles. A sociological and cultural discourse on women and self-perception would entail much more time and space than allowed here. However, several recent books and articles address those issues and will thoroughly engage those interested in pursuing them. Nonetheless, I will address physical issues of why women should embrace developing muscle.
Women who fear resembling the Hulk should immediately put that anxiety to rest. It just won’t happen. For a simple reason: hormones. Women are from the planet Estrogen; men are from Testosterone. Although both genders produce both hormones, the relative ratios are significantly different. Men normally produce higher levels (approximately 10 times that of women) of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen. Women produce the opposite. The professional female bodybuilders that, until recently graced the pages of muscle magazines gained their extreme muscle mass with the aid of supplemental anabolic/androgenic steroids. Federally classified as Schedule II drugs their usage carries legal ramifications as well as potential physiological side effects.
Although both testosterone and estrogen are anabolic (promoting the process where smaller units build bigger units in the body), testosterone is primarily responsible for increases in muscle tissue hypertrophy. Granted, some women have higher levels of androgens than normal and therefore have a propensity to increase muscle mass beyond the average woman. This attribute is genetically determined, and many of these women are competitive athletes. But a woman does not have to be an athlete to increase muscle mass. Any woman can increase strength and gain muscle.
________________________________________
Let’s talk about why women should partake in resistance training.
Life and weight loss: In our society, women are obsessed with weight control. Unfortunately, that obsession normally centers on the bathroom scale and does not consider changes in body composition (ratio of body fat to lean body mass). Most fad diets result in a loss of muscle tissue as well as body fat. A person can lose half of their body fat and remain alive; but if you lose half of your muscle mass, you will most likely die. Because muscle is denser than body fat, a person who is weight training may show slower changes on the scale but faster changes in body composition.
Muscles burn fuel: Muscle burns more calories than body fat. Muscle cells have organelles called mitochondria, often referred to by physiologists as a cell’s ‘power plant’. They provide the energy for nearly all of the metabolic processes that take place within the cell. Muscle cells are very busy and the mitochondria constantly transform chemical energy into mechanical energy. Reactions within the mitochondria break the bonds of fuel molecules and release energy for cells to use. During endurance exercise most of the energy for muscle activity is provided by mitochondria. This is used as the primary argument for the performance of copious amounts of endurance exercise. While it is true that calories are burned during endurance exercise, only resistance training can increase muscle mass. More muscle = more mitochondria = more fuel burned.
Weight training can increase basal metabolic rate: Basal metabolic rate refers to the number of calories used by the body at rest, and makes up 60-75% of the body’s total energy expenditure. While aerobic exercise burns calories during activity (and a small amount afterwards), it has minimal effect on basal metabolic rate. Additionally, extensive periods of aerobic activity can decrease basal metabolic rate by causing muscle loss. In contrast, a proper resistance-training program can increase muscle mass, and hence the metabolic rate. For general overall health and weight control, weight training is a necessary component of a woman’s exercise program.
Muscle inactivity leads to muscle weakness and wasting: Muscle fibers must be physically active if they are to remain in good health. Otherwise, they will degenerate and lose mass. We have all seen (or known) older individuals who lacked the strength to walk without aid, or get out of a chair under their own power. This represents an extreme of muscle and strength loss. Less muscle mass also means the body burns less fuel. Most importantly, less muscle mass means a decline in strength. Consequently, sedentary people have an increased need to incorporate exercise into their weekly activities to maintain muscle mass, strength and aid in weight control.
Connective tissue and joints: Resistance training also stresses and strengthens connective tissue. This is the tissue that binds bones together and attaches muscles to the skeleton. Sensible training with weights will increase the cell activity of connective tissue in the muscle and those which attach the muscles to the bones. Mechanical compression of the joints stimulates healthy metabolism of cartilage within the joints. Inactive joints have decreased macromolecule turnover in the tissue and may be more susceptible to osteoarthritis and injury.
Helps prevent osteoporosis: Muscle wasting in the elderly contributes greatly to osteoporosis, a major debilitating disease in women after they reach menopause. Women have less muscle mass than men and also have less bone density. Both men and women undergo hormonal and metabolic changes as they age. Muscles start to deteriorate, fat accumulates more readily, and bones begin to lose their density. This process can be slowed, especially with forethought. Load bearing activities enhance bone mass. Studies have shown that women who are active throughout their lives have greater bone density and retard bone loss in later years. Recent research has demonstrated that weight training can reduce, and possibly reverse, bone loss in pre- and postmenopausal women. However, women should start and maintain some type of weight training activity as early as their twenty’s for optimum prevention of osteoporosis. Regardless, it is never too late to start, no matter what age.
Muscles and mass give women power over their own lives: When was the last time you refused with a smile the bag boy’s offer to take out your groceries? When was the last time you changed the tire on your car by yourself? How soon did you huff and puff the last time you climbed those three flights of stairs? How young will you be when you are forced to enter a nursing home because your wasted muscle mass can no longer support your frail bones? Muscles are required in order for women to take charge of their own physical life. They are necessary to provide for a woman’s welfare and ability to fend for herself. As well, muscle mass contributes to weight control, especially in later life. Moreover, it makes women feel good about themselves.
________________________________________
By now you may have noticed that I use the two terms ‘weight training’ and ‘resistance training’ interchangeably. In the context of this article, ‘resistance training’ is more applicable: to build muscle mass by increasing the resistance the muscle must move. Exercise physiologists call this ‘progressive overload.’ Muscles are amazing pieces of metabolic machinery. They adapt quickly. If you can curl a 10-pound dumbbell with 12 controlled repetitions (reps), it is time to increase the weight: not ‘tone’.
Toning is not resistance training. Nor will it build muscle mass. Use the word ‘toning’ in a gym and watch the hardcore weightlifters cringe and sneer. The term ‘toning’ is erroneously applied to doing countless reps with small amounts of weight that don’t incrementally challenge the muscle. That muscle adapts quickly to moving a weight for a given number of reps and is no longer stimulated. The weight must be progressively increased in small increments for muscles to grow.
For generations women have been perceived as being the weaker sex. Not true. Strength and speed are not a monopoly of the male gender. Women and men have the same capability to develop strength and speed. Relative to fat free body mass, women have nearly the same strength as men. If one were to take the same muscle unit from a woman and a man and put it in an identical artificial environment with the same growth media and the same stimulation, the muscles would grow at the same rate. However, in the body’s environment, the hormonal and metabolic environment varies between men and women. Women have smaller muscle fibers and ordinarily have less muscle mass. Nevertheless, women are gaining in rate of competitive performance on a par with men in both speed and strength. Women are realizing they can perform daily activities that require strength that they previously thought they could not do. Physical strength will increase a woman’s independence in everyday life.
A sensible program of combining resistance and aerobic exercise will increase strength and stamina. Resistance training will stimulate the muscles to remain strong and robust. A moderate amount of aerobic activity will contribute to greater endurance and overall increases in efficient body metabolism.
Sadly, women generally don’t realize how strong they are or how strong they can be. Many women don’t know their own power and feel safe within their imposed boundaries. They are afraid to exert themselves. It is time to break that mold. Use as much weight as you can and move that weight with intensity. Challenge yourself. Set goals and work hard to achieve them. Be strong and feel strong. When you can curl that 10-pound dumbbell for 12 reps, grab the next heavier dumbbell and do it again. Go for that extra rep. Embrace the feeling of contracting muscle. Push yourself and rejoice in your accomplishments.
________________________________________
"Women need muscle, as much as they can muster. They need muscle to shield their light bones, and they need muscle to weather illness… And being strong in a blunt way, a muscleheaded way, is easier than being skilled at a sport. It is a democratic option, open to the klutzes and the latecomers, and women should seize the chance to become cheaply, fowzily strong, because the chance exists, and let’s be honest, we don’t have many. Being strong won’t make you happy or fulfilled, but it’s better to be sullen and strong than sullen and weak."
Excerpt from Woman. An Intimate Geography. By Natalie Angier, (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1999)

Maybe showing her this thread itself would help. It's been said numerous times, but I'll say it once more. Women can gain appreciable amounts of muscle. But it's harder for them than men, and (beyond minimal newbie gains) they will NOT do it without a concerted, well-planned bulking diet. Even among those that do choose to eat to put on muscle, the vast, VAST majority will not be able to attain a level of muscularity where they look manly without anabolic aid (steroids).

She has seen my results and has become motivated.

Now if you can show her any previous measurements of say waist, chest etc.. If your cutting and losing fat, then pretty much most of the measurements will be smaller than before you were working out. That should be more than enough to convince her she won't gain size for areas like the waist. She's seen the results on you.

Well, she has read over all the messages here. She has looked over all the pics, and I even took her to my gym to talk to a 40 year old mother of 2 (who is HOTT) about fitness.

She has been convinced. Starting a program August!

Thanks!

Well, she has read over all the messages here. She has looked over all the pics, and I even took her to my gym to talk to a 40 year old mother of 2 (who is HOTT) about fitness.

She has been convinced. Starting a program August!

Thanks!

Great. Good luck to her!

Man, I do agree there's something with girls trying to avoid weight training. Despite all my attempts to convince my sister to do it, she just won't. She'll diet and get skinny like hell but she wont eat well and do weights..I guess its really hard to convince some women.

Its great to know that you were able to convince your wife and she has taken *the* step towards a fitter life.

Just tell her how it is and give her some scientific back-up/proof for it - that higher amounts on testoserone is one of the major factors that leads to large muscles, such as those of bodybuilders.

Also, show her a picture of Jessica Simpson from the Dukes of Hazzards film, a shot that is taken from her left or her right in which she's wearing shorts. :tu:

I can understand equating weights with large muscles, afterall most of the guys at my gym are stacked and I'm sure those dude are everywhere around the world..so women walk in, see these giant dudes doin' bench presses and are like "I don't want to look like him!" I totally understand that aspect...what I don't get here is the speed factor...

Why do women (or anyone for that matter) believe that one day they'll be non-muscular and after a few workouts with heavy weights they'll be butch??

I mean, if a woman is so concerned why not just lift until she gets in to the "tone" range and then tone it down (no pun intended...ok, I lied that pun was intended...but still!)!! It'll never happen, but why equate reaching for something heavy with immediate results...afterall, those hours upon hours on the bike don't result in immediate weight loss.

Also, I find that women also believe that working the upper body isn't as important as the lower body. I think men are more inclined to do dumbell curls and women are more inclined to work their quads or abs. So its almost a double-whammy...they don't want to lift heavy AND they avoid 5 or 6 major muscle groups!

This drives me nuts because I see all these beautiful women that I feel could look so much more attractive and feel/be so much more healthy!

Why do women (or anyone for that matter) believe that one day they'll be non-muscular and after a few workouts with heavy weights they'll be butch??!

They simply don't know any better - for any number of reasons.

Also, I find that women also believe that working the upper body isn't as important as the lower body. I think men are more inclined to do dumbell curls and women are more inclined to work their quads or abs.!

Think about this - go to the magazine aisle and objectively look at the pics in both men's and women's mags. The women's pictures primarily focus on the lower body or the if the chest happens to be the focal point it isn't pectoralis major that is being shown off! For women's mags this is true for all but the most serious mags (I think Oxygen being the only one out there)

Men's pics focus on arms or chest sometimes back and there is a sometimes a "skinny fat" gal hanging off one of those oh-so-impressive "guns".

These are just some of the enviromental cues that set our expectations to which we pattern behavior. Societal expectations and behavior is also shaped by the attitudes of our parents, our educators, leaders, role models, what we watch on TV and what we read. When was the last time you saw Eva Longaria hefting a dumbell in an epsiode of DH? Has the heroine of the latest soft porn novel EVER been described in those pages as having defined shoulders? Would Hillary Clinton or Barbara Walters be caught dead sweating a DROP??

This drives me nuts because I see all these beautiful women that I feel could look so much more attractive and feel/be so much more healthy!

While I agree 100% that a vast majority of the women out there could stand to carve a measly 60 minutes out of their day for themselves and their health - only a percentage will ever realize they make themselves more effective partners/parents/PEOPLE by engaging in a vigorous, comprehensive fitness routine. They instead chose to remain contained in the bounds of societal "norms" doing what is "expected" rather than deciding what THEY want and need and then getting it.

BJ

A sociological and cultural discourse on women and self-perception would entail much more time and space than allowed here. However, several recent books and articles address those issues and will thoroughly engage those interested in pursuing them.

Any idea what books/articles he (or she?) was referrign to? I would be interested to read those.

Thanks !

BJ

Ok, my question earlier was simply about why women believe that the change will happen miraculously. Like one day they're going to be scrawny and weak, and then lift something heavy, go to sleep and wake up with serious bulk.

It always seemed clear to me, even before I didn't workout whatsoever and was very overweight, that it would take SOOOO long to get muscles like I wanted. Thats partially why I never started to begin with, I always thought it would take so long that it'd be futile to even start. I never thought "Oh man, I just gotta do bench press for a couple days and I'll be stacked!" I know that women think the same way, so why would they think any different when it comes to resistance training or weight training?

I understand fully the cultural issues and the urban legends about bulking up, but it just seems to me that simple common sense would suggest the truth in this case...muscles don't get huge overnight...so how come I, as a man, was inclined to think building muscle would take a long time, and women seem to think it takes such a short amount of time? Many very smart women I have known have believed this myth, and I guess maybe I'll just never get it...

(like before these are rhetorical questions and observations for further discussion)

Just like to also point out that no one is more frustrated with misconceptions that women bat around than the women themselves. I can't tell you how many times I have had to defend myself and "looking like a man" - I'd rather look like this now - than be the skinny-fat anorexic body type that a lot of these women would literally die for.

When you have to defend yourself against your own peers, you are in a precarious position. The media, your friends, your family - all tell you that to be muscular is to lose your femininity. To be strong, is somehow being weak. You couple that with some well perpetuated myths, and voila - you get instant fear that they would go to grave with before admit they are wrong.

I admit, I wanted to be as thin as possible when I embarked on my serious fitness journey 4 yrs ago. But that has changed. I have found my own power, and I can find confidence in that - even if my weight isn't anywhere near where I want it to be yet. But this was a long process. So if you are trying to change someone's opinion on what they think THEY should look like, and fight their deep seeded fears (planted by everyone and everything around them) that perpetuates that desire - you have to back off and wait. If they are exposed to the truth long enough in subtle ways, it might be enough to find it in themselves. But they have to be able to see the beauty in it - and some never will.

Ok, my question earlier was simply about why women believe that the change will happen miraculously. Like one day they're going to be scrawny and weak, and then lift something heavy, go to sleep and wake up with serious bulk.

It always seemed clear to me, even before I didn't workout whatsoever and was very overweight, that it would take SOOOO long to get muscles like I wanted. Thats partially why I never started to begin with, I always thought it would take so long that it'd be futile to even start. I never thought "Oh man, I just gotta do bench press for a couple days and I'll be stacked!" I know that women think the same way, so why would they think any different when it comes to resistance training or weight training?

I understand fully the cultural issues and the urban legends about bulking up, but it just seems to me that simple common sense would suggest the truth in this case...muscles don't get huge overnight...so how come I, as a man, was inclined to think building muscle would take a long time, and women seem to think it takes such a short amount of time? Many very smart women I have known have believed this myth, and I guess maybe I'll just never get it...

(like before these are rhetorical questions and observations for further discussion)


Well, men use that as an excuse, too! Several guys have told me they don't want to get bulky or "musclebound" (I assume that part relates to the misconception that they will lose flexibility). In fact, I read a recent interview with Seann William Scott, who claimed he refuses to lift because he packs on muscle so fast he'll get bulky :lol: Of course, few of these men who are worried about getting bulky COULD ever get there, even with hard work and years of training...

Another thing to realize is that, while most men are praised for being larger, women are often given the opposite message (yes, even muscular women). A muscular man is not going to get a lot of complaints, whereas his female counterpart will. I can't tell you how many times people offered me helpful advice when I was at my most muscular (and not fat at all) on how to "lean up". These same women with jiggly thighs and no muscle would let me know their "secrets".

Another factor is that we DO see pictures of steroid-filled androgenized women on the cover of many magazines. For most of us it is quite shocking, so I could see a woman at least wondering if something like that could happen to her.

Finally, go to almost ANY fitness website, personal trainer, or women's fitness magazine and you will see most of the advice is still: "tone up by lifting light weights for many reps and do a lot of cardio". If that is still the prevailing view of fitness "experts" it's no wonder many women are skeptical when they hear they can benefit from larger weight loads.

Ok, my question earlier was simply about why women believe that the change will happen miraculously. )

I apologize if you read my rambling soap boxy post as a negative against you - totally NOT intended that way.

Savyart expressed it much better than I did - as women - we are for a variety of reasons more subject to societal/peer pressure to stay with in a defined range of "normal femininity" - for women it is easier to conform and not be happy rather than "buck the trend" and listen to the standard myth/urban legend regurgitation we get from other females who are basically trying to make us STOP being different b/c we are making THEM uncomfortable with our individuality/power.

I too would rather be what I am than skinny fat with no cardiovascular endurance and barely enough muscle to do the daily chores.

As for the common sense notion about it being impossible to not bulk up overnight - think about all the stuff you know now that you didn't know when you started - also in the beginning, when you thought you knew not much at all -- you probably knew way more than you thought. Yeah we gals do have fitness mags but most of them read like a cross between In Style and Cosmo with a bigger exercise section.

The only thing that I can remember about my early experiences was the workouts "for women" were NOT designed like the workouts for guys - so I thought that was what I was supposed to do - for me it was not about fearing being too big - I just thought women didn't workout that way. I don't believe all that garbage now about low weight/high reps etc etc and I try to educate where I can - but most women just won't listen until they are ready - if ever as Savyart said.

BJ

Savyart, I just wanted to comment on your picture...

Thats impressive. I can tell you've put a lot of work in, keep it up! Thats hawt ;)!

Savyart, I just wanted to comment on your picture...

Thats impressive. I can tell you've put a lot of work in, keep it up! Thats hawt ;)!


Thank ya! :D

:o

You look fabulous, Savyart!!!! :) :)


Just like to also point out that no one is more frustrated with misconceptions that women bat around than the women themselves. I can't tell you how many times I have had to defend myself and "looking like a man" - I'd rather look like this now - than be the skinny-fat anorexic body type that a lot of these women would literally die for.

When you have to defend yourself against your own peers, you are in a precarious position. The media, your friends, your family - all tell you that to be muscular is to lose your femininity. To be strong, is somehow being weak. You couple that with some well perpetuated myths, and voila - you get instant fear that they would go to grave with before admit they are wrong.

I admit, I wanted to be as thin as possible when I embarked on my serious fitness journey 4 yrs ago. But that has changed. I have found my own power, and I can find confidence in that - even if my weight isn't anywhere near where I want it to be yet. But this was a long process. So if you are trying to change someone's opinion on what they think THEY should look like, and fight their deep seeded fears (planted by everyone and everything around them) that perpetuates that desire - you have to back off and wait. If they are exposed to the truth long enough in subtle ways, it might be enough to find it in themselves. But they have to be able to see the beauty in it - and some never will.

Savyart, you look great! And your daughter is a real cutey. Is that new puppy a black lab?

Savyart, you look great! And your daughter is a real cutey. Is that new puppy a black lab?


Nope, the puppy is a Llasa Apso (I think I spelled that right...) He won't get much bigger than he is now. He'll look like cousin-It when he's full grown if I let the hair grow out. Right now he resembles a minature ewok. :rolleyes: Hubby wanted to name him Wickett or Chewbacca, but I told him "over my dead body" :D

Nope, the puppy is a Llasa Apso (I think I spelled that right...) He won't get much bigger than he is now. He'll look like cousin-It when he's full grown if I let the hair grow out. Right now he resembles a minature ewok. :rolleyes: Hubby wanted to name him Wickett or Chewbacca, but I told him "over my dead body" :D

I have a shi-tzu named Wicket!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!! He looks just like an Ewok!

Where are the pix tho,I didn't see them?

I have a shi-tzu named Wicket!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!! He looks just like an Ewok!

Where are the pix tho,I didn't see them?


They're in my muscletank profile, if you click on the image at the bottom of my posts. :cool: There is a photo of my cat, labrador and llasa apso looking like they're plotting my demise... I broke up their meeting unexpectedly.