Hi all, I haven't been around these forums for a few months - neither have I been on my diet or excersize program. I got a promotion at work and am working 85+ hours a week - which will last 2-3 more months - and I can't mentally handle the commitment to a full fledged diet/excersise program right now. I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown / anxiety attack already as it is.

Good news is, I had gone from 212 to 201lbs before I quit my program, and ever since I quit it I have been eating as healthy as possible from the restaraunts / fast food that is available during my day (i.e: sandwitches, subway, salads, etc), and I have actually lost 2 more pounds somehow (with no workouts) and am at 199. I think i'll be in a good spot to resume the routine when things cool off at work.

Anyways, on to the topic of my post, I was watching the HBO show Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, if any of you don't know about it, it's a VERY good sports show, and has a lot of credibility. They did a story on steroids and their longterm use. One of the hosts of the show has been a long time voice against the use of steroids, but was completely blown away when he researched the steroid story and could find *no* long term studies or proof that suggested any negative long term effects from steroid use. In fact, he found the opposite.

He cited that the FDA and a couple other authorities (can't remember names) were against the steroid ban which came into effect in i think 1990.

He interviewed a few doctors with masters degress from harvard, yale, and princeton - and all of them agreed that there is no proof that long term steroid use has any negative side effects besides psycological (mood swings, etc) ones (*for adult males*). They said that there is absolutely no proof, or any sort of documentation on liver problems, infertility, high or low cholesterol, or any of the other commonly thought side effects from steroid use if used in proper doses.

Also, doctors and some other organization (possibly the FDA) could point to no - none - zero deaths that could conclusively be a result of steroid use. They kept asking, "If steroid use has all these effects, then where are the bodies?"

This totally blows my mind because I have heared nothing but the opposite of steroid use. I have no desire to take steroids but I wanted to get your opinions on this.

I have a bad feeling about steroids. There has to be some risk, and to me, the risk isn't worth it. I'd rather gain muscle through hard work and strict diet, and steroids seems like cheating to me.

There has to be some long-term risk. Think about it:

Lyle Alzado (Oakland Raiders) roided like crazy. He's dead.
Ken Caminiti (Houston Astros) roided like crazy. He's dead.

Steroids were very common in the NFL during the 1970s. A lot of those ex-players are now dying in their 50s. The damage on their bodies was done years ago.

Steroids are allegedly common in baseball. How many huge muscular players do you see get injured every year? A lot. It seems like all the superstars--Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds spend time on the injured list every year. Baseball is a demanding sport, but guys in that shape shouldn't be getting so hurt. It has to be steroids. Their muscles get so big and strong that their frames can't support them anymore--thus the injuries. I think the non-roiders get injured less because when they add strength and muscle, their frames are in synch with it--their muscles aren't artificially bolstered passed their body's natural limits.
You are asking--well, professional bodybuilders use roids, but they aren't injured all the time. Who says they aren't? You only see them a few times a year. Plus, they aren't running around a field chasing a ball, either. They stand and flex. Plus, these guys' bodies have undergone a lot of damage. Have you ever seen Ronnie Coleman's gut? He has to suck it in because it buldges out. All of his internal orgrans grew from the steroids and they don't fit inside anymore.

Bottom line, there's too much to lose from roiding it. The risks aren't worth the rewards, especially if you can get good results from hard work and diet alone.

Of course there is risk to steroids. Oral steroids and winstrol both have 17 alpha-alkaild (SP?) attached to the molecule to prevent the liver from destroying the steroid. 17aa is VERY liver toxic and can cause liver failure. Kidney failure is also a problem while on steroids. Steroids cause testicular atrophy, which can be reversed through the use of HCG, but with some cases of people being on steroids for years at a time at high dosages (ex, 2gm test weekly) it may be permanent. Testicals will naturally recover over time if steroids are used in reasonable and safe amounts but HCG speeds up the process. Steroids can also cause hair loss and impotence. This isn't to say that steroids are a VERY dangerous drug though. If used properly by a health male and in moderate amounts steroids can be safe.

There are also risks when injecting steroids. The injection site, needle, syringe, vial, etc must all be sterile to avoid infection. Steroids must be injected into a muscle (except for a few such as HGH). If they are injected into a vein depending on the amount injected death is possible. Most users report feeling dizzy and very sick.

As for steroids being "cheating" I really don't think so. They are hormones naturally produced by your body and by using them you are increasing your natural levels throwing your body out of homeostatsis. People take creatine, NO supplements, and all sorts of stuff that could also be considered "cheating" considered they are adding substances in quantitys greater than what is naturally found in the body. Steroids are NOT a replacement for hardwork and dedication in the gym, in the kitchen, and with rest... they are merely a supplement.

Is creatine "cheating?" It's a grey area. I use it, and sometimes I think it might be cheating. I justify it because it's naturally found in red meat. However, testosterone isn't found in red meat. Plus, pro sports banned steroids because they are "cheaters," but didn't ban creatine.

I realize I might be a walking contradiction, but I feel strongly that steroids are cheating because they aren't found naturally in the foods we eat. But creatine is. So is whey. So is glutamine. Etc., etc... That's why those are called supplements--we supplement our natural intake. We don't intake testosterone, so how can we supplement that? We don't; rather, we introduce it.

Note that I am not personally saying steroid use is safe, I am just relaying what a very credible source has found via research and asking opinions of people more knowledgable than me.

Jaybird: I think what Retro is trying to say is that steroids are testerone which is naturally produced by the body. Similar to Melatonin, a sleep "suppliment"

Note that I am not personally saying steroid use is safe, I am just relaying what a very credible source has found via research and asking opinions of people more knowledgable than me.

I never thought that you did. I thought you were just introducing a debate appropriate for this forum. As with any science, it's open to verification, validation, challenge, critique, and debate.

Is creatine "cheating?" It's a grey area. I use it, and sometimes I think it might be cheating. I justify it because it's naturally found in red meat. However, testosterone isn't found in red meat. Plus, pro sports banned steroids because they are "cheaters," but didn't ban creatine.

I realize I might be a walking contradiction, but I feel strongly that steroids are cheating because they aren't found naturally in the foods we eat. But creatine is. So is whey. So is glutamine. Etc., etc... That's why those are called supplements--we supplement our natural intake. We don't intake testosterone, so how can we supplement that? We don't; rather, we introduce it.

By taking steroids you ARE supplementing testosterone. Your testicles make it naturally. Growth Hormone which burns fat, increases muscle mass, and adds more muscle cells is also naturally produced by the thyroid. IFG-1 LR3 is naturally produced when HGH is broken down by the liver. Insulin is naturally produced by the body.

Myostatin blockers are the only supplement that arn't really natural. It is genetic manipulation that mutates the myostatin gene removing natural muscle limits. Currently myostatin blockers are nearly impossible to get. They are regulated by the FDA.

I believe you have a great deal more research to do on Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids.

I believe you have a great deal more research to do on Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids.

I beg your pardon. I'm a PhD candidate in biology, so I think I know how hormones work. We're debating the definition of "supplement" here, not the function and mechanisms of hormones. I view supplements as dietary supplements, where we boost our intake of vitamins, chemicals, and minerals that we normally consume. You view supplements with a broader definition. Our debate is semantic; so please don't pontificate.

I definitely don't condone the use of steriods, but I think there is a lot of misinformation about them. It's the same as many of the (physically) non-addictive psychadelic and hallucinogenic drugs (including marijuana), which have been subject to massive misinformation campaigns. All these substances are villified while less biased research shows that they simply do not have the life-threatening effects said of them.

I don't know what the actual dangers of steriod use are, but I'm certain they aren't as bad as they are made out to be. What should be realized is that steroids will not give a person an easy way out -- they must train just as hard as they would without them and (if I'm correct) with more volume. And, there are major risks to the body's hormone balance and health if the user does not go on or come off of steriod use properly.

A general thought: drugs should not be used to escape one's problems.

I beg your pardon. I'm a PhD candidate in biology, so I think I know how hormones work. We're debating the definition of "supplement" here, not the function and mechanisms of hormones. I view supplements as dietary supplements, where we boost our intake of vitamins, chemicals, and minerals that we normally consume. You view supplements with a broader definition. Our debate is semantic; so please don't pontificate.

With that background I would assume you'd consider taking high levels of hormones supplementing. That is exactly what steroids do, supplement natural testosterone production. Sorry to insult your intelligence, no offence intended.

I definitely don't condone the use of steriods, but I think there is a lot of misinformation about them. It's the same as many of the (physically) non-addictive psychadelic and hallucinogenic drugs (including marijuana), which have been subject to massive misinformation campaigns. All these substances are villified while less biased research shows that they simply do not have the life-threatening effects said of them.

I don't know what the actual dangers of steriod use are, but I'm certain they aren't as bad as they are made out to be. What should be realized is that steroids will not give a person an easy way out -- they must train just as hard as they would without them and (if I'm correct) with more volume. And, there are major risks to the body's hormone balance and health if the user does not go on or come off of steriod use properly.

A general thought: drugs should not be used to escape one's problems.

Steroids are ussually used to gain muscle in individuals who are already at their natural limit and cannot gain more mass naturally. You are incorrect you do not need to train with more volume. It is still possble for muscles to become catabolic with the use of steroids as a result of overtraining. However work outs should be more intense to utilize the full potential of the hormones.

Just like almost all supplements, steroids must be taken properly with attention paid to dosages, time on and time off, and PCT.

Sorry to insult your intelligence, no offence intended.

None taken--we're cool. We're debating the definition of supplement. I can see your point as valid, too.

None taken--we're cool. We're debating the definition of supplement. I can see your point as valid, too.

I ussually get edgy at night. :cool: Must be bedtime.

I ussually get edgy at night. :cool: Must be bedtime.
I can spout my mouth off thinking I know more than I do at times. One of my flaws.

There has to be some long-term risk. Think about it:

Lyle Alzado (Oakland Raiders) roided like crazy. He's dead.
Ken Caminiti (Houston Astros) roided like crazy. He's dead.


I saw the episode of Real Sports and they said several times they weren't talking about steroid abuse (aka rioding like crazy).

I honestly don't know what my view on steroids is. Too much of what I know about them comes from the media. I thought Real Sports did a good job showing the other side. People who use steroids, not abuse them, that have no health problems.

If you saw the 2nd to last Episode of "30 Days" (not sure anyone watches it as Morgan Spurlock is generally jeered on these boards) a guy started exercising taking HGH, periodic Testosterone injections and 44 daily supplements. In the end it was the supplements that messed up his liver function. Of course either the HGH or the testosterone made him sterile.

If you drink a glass of wine everyday it's suppose to be good for you. If you drink a bottle a day.. now you have a health issue.

I think the problem with steroids and sports is the attitude well he takes X amount I will double it.

Any way just my $.02

-- Jeremy

I believe there is some validity to saying that if one was smart about it, that he might be safe from a couple of cycles of SOME AAS. Doing all your research, having exhausted every other means of training styles and diet and supplements (in other words: training experience), waiting until you are in your late 20s at least, providing your body with proper liver support, blood pressure help, and post-cycle therapy, etc. But does the majority of these guys do that? I doubt it. Take 5 minutes to read on bodybuilding.com's forums and see how many guys with 2 months of training under their belt ask for cycle help.

Or look at the supplement section over there and see how many kids are asking for PH help. IMHO many of these oral PH compounds seem to provide half the good stuff and twice as many side effects. That's another topic though...

It seems to me that a lot of guys don't get satisfied. They run a cycle and get big, stop, fail to use proper recovery supplementation and (also illegal) nolva or whatever. Then they look like crap again, and decide they have to juice again. Sad indeed.

I don't know how I feel about steroids. I don't have a problem with the friends I know who use them, I just stay out of it. They know I don't condone it but I try not to get into it with them about it. I do know that I myself would at least exhaust every other aspect I could before even considering running a cycle, and even if consideration of it was in my future it would not be for a LONG time (I honestly don't think I'd ever even consider it; I don't want to be a pro bodybuilder). Currently I'm doing fine with massive amounts of red meat, creatine, dextrose, and high intensity training (NOT HIT, just high intensity!). For me, right now anyway, I'm just kinda like "I don't need it." I wish some of the guys who jump into this stuff would just at least try everything else first. Getting big really isn't that hard. Just eat your butt off, work out hard, and get plenty of rest.

Besides, wtf, they're illegal anyway. I get paranoid when a friend mentions the word "pot" to me. I don't need that kind of stress!

Maybe they're safe in small dosages, for those who do it "properly." I don't know. I really don't care either, at least not at this point in my life.

I think it's also the other compounds like GH that attribute to problems. I do give kudos to the IFBB for their recent crackdown on the "GH GUT" -- we'll see if it actually gets enforced this year though...

I have a bad feeling about steroids. There has to be some risk, and to me, the risk isn't worth it. I'd rather gain muscle through hard work and strict diet, and steroids seems like cheating to me.

There has to be some long-term risk. Think about it:

Lyle Alzado (Oakland Raiders) roided like crazy. He's dead.
Ken Caminiti (Houston Astros) roided like crazy. He's dead.

Steroids were very common in the NFL during the 1970s. A lot of those ex-players are now dying in their 50s. The damage on their bodies was done years ago.

Steroids are allegedly common in baseball. How many huge muscular players do you see get injured every year? A lot. It seems like all the superstars--Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Ken Caminiti, Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds spend time on the injured list every year. Baseball is a demanding sport, but guys in that shape shouldn't be getting so hurt. It has to be steroids. Their muscles get so big and strong that their frames can't support them anymore--thus the injuries. I think the non-roiders get injured less because when they add strength and muscle, their frames are in synch with it--their muscles aren't artificially bolstered passed their body's natural limits.
You are asking--well, professional bodybuilders use roids, but they aren't injured all the time. Who says they aren't? You only see them a few times a year. Plus, they aren't running around a field chasing a ball, either. They stand and flex. Plus, these guys' bodies have undergone a lot of damage. Have you ever seen Ronnie Coleman's gut? He has to suck it in because it buldges out. All of his internal orgrans grew from the steroids and they don't fit inside anymore.

Bottom line, there's too much to lose from roiding it. The risks aren't worth the rewards, especially if you can get good results from hard work and diet alone.

The bottom line is Lyle Alzado died of brain cancer.So do thousands of other people who have never done steroids. Just because he was a public figure and an admitted steroid user people automatically attribute his death to steroids. Bullshit!
I don't condone the use of steroids but you can't blame them for unfortunate incidents like Alzados.As for injuries, hell people get hurt! Deal with it.

Ok:

1) Steroids can raise blood pressure in some individuals. That has obvious long-term negative cardiovascular effects.

2) Steroids suppress the immune system temporarily which could cause other problems that may not manifest themselves until much time has passed.

3) There is not direct scientific evidence of this to my knowledge but steroids (in my educated opinion) promote cancer.

4) Steroids effect cholesterol levels in most users and while they decrease overall cholesterol levels they increase the proportion of bad to good cholesterol having an overall negative effect on the cardiovascular system.

5) Steroids enhance the possibility of muscle tears.

The above effects are when supernatural levels of anabolics exist through exogenous use.

Nice post 1FastGTX. :tu:

As to the definition of "supplements". Dietary supplements are legal because they are considered a supplementation to your diet. They are adding to your daily intake of something that is already present as a dietary ingredient. This is why they are regulated by the FDA in basically the same way foods are regulated. Hormones, on the other hand, are regulated by the FDA as drugs. They are not dietary ingredients, and would not ever be considered a supplement.

Nice post 1FastGTX. :tu:

As to the definition of "supplements". Dietary supplements are legal because they are considered a supplementation to your diet. They are adding to your daily intake of something that is already present as a dietary ingredient. This is why they are regulated by the FDA in basically the same way foods are regulated. Hormones, on the other hand, are regulated by the FDA as drugs. They are not dietary ingredients, and would not ever be considered a supplement.

Although they may not be regulated as supplements they are infact supplementing natural testosterone correct?

Looks like i opened a can of worms with this post! Like I say, seeing that bit on Real Sports blew my mind. Your opinions have been interesting to me so far. Thanks for all the replies!

Too many people in this world think that their life must be shaped from what comes out of a needle or a bottle. It is a sad shape this world has come to, when we accept the unacceptable in every walk of life.

My brother took steroids as a teenager, and now being 35, he cannot have children, his sperm is dead when it leaves his body. Now he has to spend $15,000 dollars for someone to go inside him and take the sperm just so he can have a child. Don't risk it.

wow!

My brother took steroids as a teenager, and now being 35, he cannot have children, his sperm is dead when it leaves his body. Now he has to spend $15,000 dollars for someone to go inside him and take the sperm just so he can have a child. Don't risk it.

Larry NC,
I'm truly sorry to hear about your brothers condition however this is just another unfortunate coincidence much the same as Lyle Alzados. Just because your brother used steroids in no way means they are responsible for his infertility.
Back in the 80's I trained with a bunch of guys who used steroids.( hell,alot of guys used steroids if you catch my drift) Today,5 out of the 6 of them are dads. I mean c'mon, Arnold's a dad a few times over!!
I am not condoning steroid use but I think they get a bad rap.

Too many people in this world think that their life must be shaped from what comes out of a needle or a bottle. It is a sad shape this world has come to, when we accept the unacceptable in every walk of life.

At some point it is no longer possible to gain muscle naturally and if someone wishes to continue growing then steroids are the only answer. I do not believe it is anyones right to judge what someone else does to their body as long as it is not harming other people.

future goal: to get close to having a figure similar to mike tyson at his prime. im aiming high!

Speaking of steroids, Mike Tyson took steroids. I hope you have good genetics.

Edit: I guess it depends what you call his prime though.

At some point it is no longer possible to gain muscle naturally and if someone wishes to continue growing then steroids are the only answer. I do not believe it is anyones right to judge what someone else does to their body as long as it is not harming other people.
There are problems there though. For some people steroids might be the only answer, true, but I do not think that rule applies to everyone; some use that as a cop out for their laziness.

1) How many people actually wait until they have hit their genetic limit before taking steroids? I'd venture to say very, very little. Do people really understand what a genetic limit is? I have only seen a few pro bodybuilders that I think have come close to this point, MAYBE Sergio Oliva was close. Dorian comes to mind too. Coleman and Cutler and Gunter get bigger every year, but then all of these guys are on the sauce so I guess these are kinda bad points/examples.

(Skip LaCour might be pretty damn close, and I am not 100% but I believe he's probably not juicing.)

2) How many people who think they have hit this limit try to go even further with every other means necessary before taking steroids? Again, I'd venture to say very, very little. There are SO many ways to change things up. Diet (more red meat, carb intake changes, carb and calorie cycling, different types of meat, differnent types of fish, periodic cheat meals, eat a bunch of oats, drink a gallon of milk a day). Supplementation (creatine, PWO changes, mega-dose of bulk BCAA cycles). Training (overloading principles, stopping short of failure, periodic supersetting, other shock principles, MAXOT, HST, HIT, BFL, HEAVY DUTY, volume, powerlifting styles, 20-rep squats). Other means (take some time off, change split, change workout time, get more rest, hire a trainer).

There is SO MUCH you could try before resorting to steroids in my opinion. I went into doing a run of 3 steaks per day and it made a dramatic difference. :) Again it's none of my business if someone wants to do roids, I don't have anything against them (so I agree with your statements here), I just wish people would educate themselves better and at least exhaust every other option before trying them.

There are problems there though. For some people steroids might be the only answer, true, but I do not think that rule applies to everyone; some use that as a cop out for their laziness.

1) How many people actually wait until they have hit their genetic limit before taking steroids? I'd venture to say very, very little. Do people really understand what a genetic limit is? I have only seen a few pro bodybuilders that I think have come close to this point, MAYBE Sergio Oliva was close. Dorian comes to mind too. Coleman and Cutler and Gunter get bigger every year, but then all of these guys are on the sauce so I guess these are kinda bad points/examples.

(Skip LaCour might be pretty damn close, and I am not 100% but I believe he's probably not juicing.)

2) How many people who think they have hit this limit try to go even further with every other means necessary before taking steroids? Again, I'd venture to say very, very little. There are SO many ways to change things up. Diet (more red meat, carb intake changes, carb and calorie cycling, different types of meat, differnent types of fish, periodic cheat meals, eat a bunch of oats, drink a gallon of milk a day). Supplementation (creatine, PWO changes, mega-dose of bulk BCAA cycles). Training (overloading principles, stopping short of failure, periodic supersetting, other shock principles, MAXOT, HST, HIT, BFL, HEAVY DUTY, volume, powerlifting styles, 20-rep squats). Other means (take some time off, change split, change workout time, get more rest, hire a trainer).

There is SO MUCH you could try before resorting to steroids in my opinion. I went into doing a run of 3 steaks per day and it made a dramatic difference. :) Again it's none of my business if someone wants to do roids, I don't have anything against them (so I agree with your statements here), I just wish people would educate themselves better and at least exhaust every other option before trying them.

FastGTX is 100% correct if he's talking about the average guy but there ain't no way a pro bodybuilder can get on the same stage with the guys who are juicing if hes not. Just not gonna happen.

FastGTX is 100% correct if he's talking about the average guy but there ain't no way a pro bodybuilder can get on the same stage with the guys who are juicing if hes not. Just not gonna happen.
No kidding.

That wasn't my point though. My point was simply that people jump into a cycle before exhausting every other means necessary. They could have put on more muscle mass naturally if they just tried something new, worked harder, worked smarter, changed diet, etc. but instead they take steroids. I wasn't talking about natural guys trying to compete with professionals; I think it's obvious that everyone on the Olympia stage is taking more than creatine and protein.

No kidding.

That wasn't my point though. My point was simply that people jump into a cycle before exhausting every other means necessary. They could have put on more muscle mass naturally if they just tried something new, worked harder, worked smarter, changed diet, etc. but instead they take steroids. I wasn't talking about natural guys trying to compete with professionals; I think it's obvious that everyone on the Olympia stage is taking more than creatine and protein.

And this is why I consider steroids as cheating. If a doctor prescribes steroids for health reasons or because someone is actually at their genetic limits, this becomes less of a cheating mechanism and more of a valid means.

Agree 100%. I'd say less than 15% of people on steroids have researched them enough to be qualified to use them and even less have acctually reached their potential. They are just doing it the American way, taking the easy way out. :D

There are problems there though. For some people steroids might be the only answer, true, but I do not think that rule applies to everyone; some use that as a cop out for their laziness.

1) How many people actually wait until they have hit their genetic limit before taking steroids? I'd venture to say very, very little. Do people really understand what a genetic limit is? I have only seen a few pro bodybuilders that I think have come close to this point, MAYBE Sergio Oliva was close. Dorian comes to mind too. Coleman and Cutler and Gunter get bigger every year, but then all of these guys are on the sauce so I guess these are kinda bad points/examples.

(Skip LaCour might be pretty damn close, and I am not 100% but I believe he's probably not juicing.)

2) How many people who think they have hit this limit try to go even further with every other means necessary before taking steroids? Again, I'd venture to say very, very little. There are SO many ways to change things up. Diet (more red meat, carb intake changes, carb and calorie cycling, different types of meat, differnent types of fish, periodic cheat meals, eat a bunch of oats, drink a gallon of milk a day). Supplementation (creatine, PWO changes, mega-dose of bulk BCAA cycles). Training (overloading principles, stopping short of failure, periodic supersetting, other shock principles, MAXOT, HST, HIT, BFL, HEAVY DUTY, volume, powerlifting styles, 20-rep squats). Other means (take some time off, change split, change workout time, get more rest, hire a trainer).

There is SO MUCH you could try before resorting to steroids in my opinion. I went into doing a run of 3 steaks per day and it made a dramatic difference. :) Again it's none of my business if someone wants to do roids, I don't have anything against them (so I agree with your statements here), I just wish people would educate themselves better and at least exhaust every other option before trying them.

And this is why I consider steroids as cheating. If a doctor prescribes steroids for health reasons or because someone is actually at their genetic limits, this becomes less of a cheating mechanism and more of a valid means.
Eh, maybe. I don't know. You gotta figure everyone on stage at Olympia is jucing, so are they all cheating? Maybe, I don't know.

They are just doing it the American way, taking the easy way out. :D
Dorian was from England.

Oh well the British are far more lazy than Americans.

Oh well the British are far more lazy than Americans.

What? Are you sure?
:d_confuse

What? Are you sure?
:d_confuse

I work with a Brit. Yes he is very lazy.

Oh well the British are far more lazy than Americans.


Hey Fosse - Did you hear that ? What about you Gaz ?

No kidding.

That wasn't my point though. My point was simply that people jump into a cycle before exhausting every other means necessary. They could have put on more muscle mass naturally if they just tried something new, worked harder, worked smarter, changed diet, etc. but instead they take steroids. I wasn't talking about natural guys trying to compete with professionals; I think it's obvious that everyone on the Olympia stage is taking more than creatine and protein.

Jeez - ya think?

Jeez - ya think?
Do I think what?

Do I think what?

Do you REALLY think they're using more than creatine and protein? That would be cheating!

Do you REALLY think they're using more than creatine and protein? That would be cheating!

I hear Ronnie just injects strait into his nuts.

I hear Ronnie just injects strait into his nuts.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!

Is creatine "cheating?" It's a grey area. I use it, and sometimes I think it might be cheating. I justify it because it's naturally found in red meat. However, testosterone isn't found in red meat. Plus, pro sports banned steroids because they are "cheaters," but didn't ban creatine.

I realize I might be a walking contradiction, but I feel strongly that steroids are cheating because they aren't found naturally in the foods we eat. But creatine is. So is whey. So is glutamine. Etc., etc... That's why those are called supplements--we supplement our natural intake. We don't intake testosterone, so how can we supplement that? We don't; rather, we introduce it.

Cheating what? Are you a competitive athlete? What sport do you play? Since creatine is not illegal and everyone has access to it, it wouldn't be cheating anyhow. Using supplements just to get bigger and stronger is not cheating. There is no contest to cheat. I don't view using steroids for non sports-specific purposes as cheating either. There's nothing to cheat on. The fact that they we do not naturally ingest these substances in food is a different issue. I don't take steroids because I'm not willing to confront the potential risks. These are very real. They include potential cholesterol/liver problems, blood pressure problems, fertility issues, gyno, and much more. These can largely be dealt with if approached properly during a cycle and after with proper PCT. And a lot of the side effects of steroids in males are temporary. But not always, and people do experience problems. For me it's not worth the risk (however large or small) for some more muscle or to lean out spectacularly.

Agree 100%. I'd say less than 15% of people on steroids have researched them enough to be qualified to use them and even less have acctually reached their potential. They are just doing it the American way, taking the easy way out. :D

Agreed. I personally would not use steroids. But there are ways to approach using so as to minimize risks. Most that use probably haven't yet achieved the muscular development to warrant it. Nor have they done their homework and designed a well-planned cycle with the necessary PCT.

Cheating what? Are you a competitive athlete? What sport do you play? Since creatine is not illegal and everyone has access to it, it wouldn't be cheating anyhow. Using supplements just to get bigger and stronger is not cheating. There is no contest to cheat. I don't view using steroids for non sports-specific purposes as cheating either. There's nothing to cheat on. The fact that they we do not naturally ingest these substances in food is a different issue. I don't take steroids because I'm not willing to confront the potential risks. These are very real. They include potential cholesterol/liver problems, blood pressure problems, fertility issues, gyno, and much more. These can largely be dealt with if approached properly during a cycle and after with proper PCT. And a lot of the side effects of steroids in males are temporary. But not always, and people do experience problems. For me it's not worth the risk (however large or small) for some more muscle or to lean out spectacularly.

I think it's a grey area. It supplements my body beyond what I would normally be able to consume if I just ate red meat alone. So in that sense, it's slightly unnatural. But I don't really care, I use it and I embrace it.

Although it's legal and widely available, some pro sports, especially the NFL, are trying to ban it.

I read an article a while back about loads of the WWF Superstars from the early 90s who are dead now, and they were attempting to link that to steroid use.

I can't remember which ones now, know the British Bulldog was one of them.

I read an article a while back about loads of the WWF Superstars from the early 90s who are dead now, and they were attempting to link that to steroid use.

I can't remember which ones now, know the British Bulldog was one of them.
I am not saying these deaths are steriod related, as these guys live a unique kind of life, but:

Pistol Pez Whatley - 54 yrs - heart attack
Big Boss Man - 41 yrs - heart attack
Hercules Hernandez - 47 yrs - heart attack
Jerry Tuite (Malice) - 36 yrs - heart attack
Crash Holly - 33 yrs - suicide
Road Warrior Hawk - 44yrs - heart attack
Curt Henning - 43 yrs - drug od
Rocco Rock - 48 yrs - heart attack
Davey Boy Smith - 38 yrs - heart attack
Freebird Terry Gordy - 40yrs - heart attack
Ravishing Rick Rude - 40 yrs - hear attack
Brian Pillman - 32 yrs - heart attack
Eddie Gilbert - 32yrs - heart attack
David Von Eric - 25 yrs - drug od
Mike Von Eric - 23 yrs - suicide
Chris Von Eric - 21yrs - suicide

There......more than you ever wanted to know about pro wrestlers who died young, the vast majority due to heart attack.

Interesting

I am not saying these deaths are steriod related, as these guys live a unique kind of life, but:

Pistol Pez Whatley - 54 yrs - heart attack
Big Boss Man - 41 yrs - heart attack
Hercules Hernandez - 47 yrs - heart attack
Jerry Tuite (Malice) - 36 yrs - heart attack
Crash Holly - 33 yrs - suicide
Road Warrior Hawk - 44yrs - heart attack
Curt Henning - 43 yrs - drug od
Rocco Rock - 48 yrs - heart attack
Davey Boy Smith - 38 yrs - heart attack
Freebird Terry Gordy - 40yrs - heart attack
Ravishing Rick Rude - 40 yrs - hear attack
Brian Pillman - 32 yrs - heart attack
Eddie Gilbert - 32yrs - heart attack
David Von Eric - 25 yrs - drug od
Mike Von Eric - 23 yrs - suicide
Chris Von Eric - 21yrs - suicide

There......more than you ever wanted to know about pro wrestlers who died young, the vast majority due to heart attack.

most died because of combination of steroid, alcohol and pain killers taken at the same time.

Isn't this just like everything - in excess it's going to be bad for you?

Wheras with sensible amounts it's not going to provide a signifacntly higher risk of early death.


As for lazy brits, nah i've met lazy sods from both sides of the ocean. We can all be just as lazy as each other.

I would say the american diet is much worse though. Food courts stocked with junk food for instance are as prevalent in the uk and healthier options are MUCH easier to find.

Isn't this just like everything - in excess it's going to be bad for you?

Wheras with sensible amounts it's not going to provide a signifacntly higher risk of early death.

Exactly, you could kill yourself if you abused vitamins.

I talked to my doctor about weightlifting during my physical yesterday. He had a roommate that did AAS. I asked him what were the risks associated with use and he said liver damage from orals and getting your natural test production back (we didn't discuss PCT). That was it. Pretty much no risk from injection (beside rage sides).

I'm not advocating usage for everyone, and certainly people should do their homework before even thinking about doing a cycle, but with proper use it would be beneficial to someone that has reached their genetic limit.

I'm not there yet, so I'll keep it up with diet and lots of "heavy ass weights".

I talked to my doctor about weightlifting during my physical yesterday. He had a roommate that did AAS. I asked him what were the risks associated with use and he said liver damage from orals and getting your natural test production back (we didn't discuss PCT). That was it. Pretty much no risk from injection (beside rage sides).

I'm not advocating usage for everyone, and certainly people should do their homework before even thinking about doing a cycle, but with proper use it would be beneficial to someone that has reached their genetic limit.

I'm not there yet, so I'll keep it up with diet and lots of "heavy ass weights".

Roid rage is a myth. It comes from people who are predisposed to having anger management problems. It might make you more irritable but certainly not "rage". Anavar is an oral and is known for making people a little more edgy. Winstrol can also be injected and because it is 17aa is liver toxic.

Roid rage is a myth. It comes from people who are predisposed to having anger management problems. It might make you more irritable but certainly not "rage". Anavar is an oral and is known for making people a little more edgy. Winstrol can also be injected and because it is 17aa is liver toxic.

I respectfully and totally disagree!!!!!! Believe me, the "rage" is real!!!!

Larry NC,
I'm truly sorry to hear about your brothers condition however this is just another unfortunate coincidence much the same as Lyle Alzados. Just because your brother used steroids in no way means they are responsible for his infertility.
Back in the 80's I trained with a bunch of guys who used steroids.( hell,alot of guys used steroids if you catch my drift) Today,5 out of the 6 of them are dads. I mean c'mon, Arnold's a dad a few times over!!
I am not condoning steroid use but I think they get a bad rap.

You forgot one, so you mean 5 out of 7. He abused steroids thats why he isn't a father right now. I hate to say this because I don't believe too many things doctors say but thats what they said, too.

You forgot one, so you mean 5 out of 7. He abused steroids thats why he isn't a father right now. I hate to say this because I don't believe too many things doctors say but thats what they said, too.

Again, i'm very sorry to hear about your brothers misfortunes however I don't see how it's possible for a doctor to specify the exact cause of your brothers infertility unless it was caused by some kind of trauma.
It's much easier for the M.D. to lay the blame on some "possibility" rather than not having an answer.

Again, i'm very sorry to hear about your brothers misfortunes however I don't see how it's possible for a doctor to specify the exact cause of your brothers infertility unless it was caused by some kind of trauma.
It's much easier for the M.D. to lay the blame on some "possibility" rather than not having an answer.

Agreed. And I'm by no means advocating steroid use or saying they are worth the potential risk, but the key word in your post is that he ABUSED steroids.

I respectfully and totally disagree!!!!!! Believe me, the "rage" is real!!!!

What information are you basing this off of?

What information are you basing this off of?

Personal experience.If you read between the lines in my first response to LarryNC regarding his brother I stated "hell,alot of guys were doing steroids if you catch my drift". That was a subtle confession. That was 25 years ago.

My personal experience has shown no signs of "rage". There may be a person running dianabol, 500mg test, and winny (of course not dbol and winny at same time) and "he" has had no "rage", just more irritable.

Anything said by Retro2499 is purely for roleplaying purposes only. I do not condone the use of illegal steroids.

Edit, I used to also know where a study was that was done on about 100 healthy males ranging in age. All of which were given varying doses of testosterone and some lifted, some did not and NONE of them had ANY signs of a so called roid rage.

Edit.... again, and by rage I mean like. Blowing up at someone, throwing stuff, assaulting someone. Behaivor that is VERY unussual for a normal person.

My personal experience has shown no signs of "rage". There may be a person running dianabol, 500mg test, and winny (of course not dbol and winny at same time) and "he" has had no "rage", just more irritable.

Anything said by Retro2499 is purely for roleplaying purposes only. I do not condone the use of illegal steroids.

Edit, I used to also know where a study was that was done on about 100 healthy males ranging in age. All of which were given varying doses of testosterone and some lifted, some did not and NONE of them had ANY signs of a so called roid rage.

Edit.... again, and by rage I mean like. Blowing up at someone, throwing stuff, assaulting someone. Behaivor that is VERY unussual for a normal person.
Retro,
I can only speak from personal experience.During my useage, there was a somewhat dramatic change in my behavior.I became very short tempered and sometimes reacted to certain situations in a totally irrational manner. Certain drugs effected me differently. While some had little to no effect on my behavior, others made me crazy. I'm normally a fairly laid back guy. This was not the case during certain cycles. I wasn't "violent or abusive physically" but there were many explosive episodes. Honestly, my whole demeanor changed.
As I stated, this is just my experience. I'm sure there are guys out there who have had no adverse reactions. I unfortunately did.
Just to clarify, I in no way, shape, or form, condone the use of anabolic steroids. I was young and naive.

One more thing. Back in the 80's if you knew the right people you could find an M.D willing to administer A.S. I was fortunate enough to know the right people. My drugs were obtained legally.

Roid rage is a myth. It comes from people who are predisposed to having anger management problems. It might make you more irritable but certainly not "rage". Anavar is an oral and is known for making people a little more edgy. Winstrol can also be injected and because it is 17aa is liver toxic.

By the way, funny you should mention anavar. That's the biggest culprit.

By the way, funny you should mention anavar. That's the biggest culprit.

Ha ya, var and tren :mad:

Ha ya, var and tren :mad:

You know it!

http://rapidshare.de/files/2572196/HBO_Steroids.wmv.html

Check this out guys.

http://rapidshare.de/files/2572196/HBO_Steroids.wmv.html

Check this out guys.

Call me an idiot but ya gotta help me out here. I don't get it ??????????

go to bottom of the initial page, and click "free".
then u will see a counter for like 20 sec on the bottom again, wait and click on the file Download: HBO_Steroids.wmv

go to bottom of the initial page, and click "free".
then u will see a counter for like 20 sec on the bottom again, wait and click on the file Download: HBO_Steroids.wmv

Shit! It's not letting me download.

Scroll to the bottom and click the button that says "Free." Next page you need to scroll down again and there will be a timer that says "Download-Ticket - waiting X seconds" and it does a countdown. When it reaches 0 you can click and download the WMV file.

Interesting video by the way. It's not the first time I've heard of guys legally walking into a clinic and buying steroids ("HRT").