I won't link to today's New York Times article that got me thinking about this, as the NYT requires registration, and I don't want anybody to feel excluded,

But what do y'all think about "big is beautiful" culture? You know, "obesity isn't a disease, it's part of who I am" and such.

I'd imagine people here would have some pretty interesting opinions on it, provided we can all figure out a way to talk about it. 'Cause, you know, it's a pretty hard thing to talk about honestly sometimes.

I'll withold my own opinions for a bit; I don't want to influence anybody.

Once you are fat enough for it to be a health risk, I don't see how it can be argued that it is not a problem.

That said, I think some people are too focused on looking stick-thin, even if that means losing lean muscle mass and/or having eating disorders. When I was younger I was hospitalized and lost most of my lean mass and fat. I was very, very sick, literally almost dead, and a lot of women complimented me on how great I looked :confused: There are also a lot of people that don't look that fat and may even have low bodyfat that treat their bodies like utter crap. For me it is all about health. Aesthetically, I don't find a man with 5-10 lbs of extra fat on him to be unattractive. Much more than that and I would worry about his health and assume he was not leading a very healthy lifestyle.

I think that if you are happy with the way you look, either fat, fit or skinny, thats good for you. But I think obese people should realise (maybe many of them do, I don't know) that they are a burden to society, and that they should do something about it.

Even if they think they are big and beautiful I think most of them would prefer to be fit and beautiful... :confused:

edit: typo, removed quote

Yeah, this concept has been around for quite some time.

The expression says it all,

"If you can't beat them, join them."

It's tough to quick smoking, to stop drinking, to stop taking drugs, or to exercise and live healthy. It requires focus, work, and dedication. There are quite a few who would much rather give into their addictions than face them, and for those people, we have clubs.

Drinkers have their bars and pubs.
Smokers have plenty of places to congregate.
Drug addicts create their own "fight the power" subculture and would prefer if you referred to their drug-induced trips as "enlightenment."

Now we have victims of the second leading cause of death in the United States, poor diet and lack of exercise, banding together to say, "It's okay that I'm abusing my body."

Granted, it is very difficult for some people to lose weight. But it's also tough for smokers to kick the habit and alcoholics to get "dry."

I believe that you do not have to be ultra low body fat and shredded to be healthy. In fact, I even believe that if someone is carry around some extra fat, but are regularly exercising and consuming healthy, clean foods, that this is quite alright as well. The statistics linking overweight and obesity to dengerative disease aren't very specific ... until they do a study comparing risks from people on the SAD (standard American diet) to those who are overweight but consuming healthy foods, I'd say it's up in the air if someone overweight but fit is really at more risk than someone who isn't.

However, obesity is another ballgame. The definition of obesity leaves room for improvement - I've been obese at 16% body fat because of the outdated BMI computation - but when someone is carrying excess fat, if we define obesity based on body fat percentage (and this isn't the place to state a number, because that could be a subject of debate as well) then there really does have to be a concern not just from a disease and health perspective, but from the abuse to the joints, limbs, and cardiovascular system due to having to carry the extra weight.

Furthermore, the conditions are also to be considered. I find it ironic sometimes at local church meetings to hear the people gathered in the fellowship hall condemning youth for not having morales or values as they engage in the gluttony of sucking down donuts. Gluttony is no different than sloth, greed, or any of the other habits that most people COULD succumb to but most civilized adults CHOOSE not to.

I guess if people want their own club to celebrate how unhealthy they are, the more the merrier.

Jeremy

I won't link to today's New York Times article that got me thinking about this, as the NYT requires registration, and I don't want anybody to feel excluded,

But what do y'all think about "big is beautiful" culture? You know, "obesity isn't a disease, it's part of who I am" and such.

I'd imagine people here would have some pretty interesting opinions on it, provided we can all figure out a way to talk about it. 'Cause, you know, it's a pretty hard thing to talk about honestly sometimes.

I'll withold my own opinions for a bit; I don't want to influence anybody.

Yeah, this concept has been around for quite some time.

The expression says it all,

"If you can't beat them, join them."

It's tough to quick smoking, to stop drinking, to stop taking drugs, or to exercise and live healthy. It requires focus, work, and dedication. There are quite a few who would much rather give into their addictions than face them, and for those people, we have clubs.

Drinkers have their bars and pubs.
Smokers have plenty of places to congregate.
Drug addicts create their own "fight the power" subculture and would prefer if you referred to their drug-induced trips as "enlightenment."

Now we have victims of the second leading cause of death in the United States, poor diet and lack of exercise, banding together to say, "It's okay that I'm abusing my body."

Granted, it is very difficult for some people to lose weight. But it's also tough for smokers to kick the habit and alcoholics to get "dry."

I believe that you do not have to be ultra low body fat and shredded to be healthy. In fact, I even believe that if someone is carry around some extra fat, but are regularly exercising and consuming healthy, clean foods, that this is quite alright as well. The statistics linking overweight and obesity to dengerative disease aren't very specific ... until they do a study comparing risks from people on the SAD (standard American diet) to those who are overweight but consuming healthy foods, I'd say it's up in the air if someone overweight but fit is really at more risk than someone who isn't.

However, obesity is another ballgame. The definition of obesity leaves room for improvement - I've been obese at 16% body fat because of the outdated BMI computation - but when someone is carrying excess fat, if we define obesity based on body fat percentage (and this isn't the place to state a number, because that could be a subject of debate as well) then there really does have to be a concern not just from a disease and health perspective, but from the abuse to the joints, limbs, and cardiovascular system due to having to carry the extra weight.

Furthermore, the conditions are also to be considered. I find it ironic sometimes at local church meetings to hear the people gathered in the fellowship hall condemning youth for not having morales or values as they engage in the gluttony of sucking down donuts. Gluttony is no different than sloth, greed, or any of the other habits that most people COULD succumb to but most civilized adults CHOOSE not to.

I guess if people want their own club to celebrate how unhealthy they are, the more the merrier.

Jeremy

Instead of "If you cant beat em...join em", its more like "If you can't beat em....eat em."

I don't begrudge people for being happy if they are obese and unhealthy, however a lot of people use that as an excuse, they fail to realise that they can be a lot happer if adapting to a healthy exercise & eating program. We make it so easy to lose weight and have programs where its all set up for you, and yet people still choose the obese unhealthy lifestyle.

I actually find exercising and eating right improves brain power, I get heaps of ideas and tend to analyze things a whole lot more now that I'm working out and eating right. Whereas before I wasen't really doing much of everything.

At the end of the day its your call. No one is going to hold it against you if you opt for that lifestyle. Just like no fat people should complain against the health concious person for being a "health addict and a gym junkie." You live your life and I'll live mine.

Here's my thoughts, your initial reaction may be that I'm a jerk, but hopefully I'll redeem myself in the end.

The thinking of 'big is beautiful' is just a cop out that fat, lazy, low self esteem people use. These are people who are unwilling to take responsibility for their actions, who are blind to the fact that their actions have severe repercusions not only to themselves, but to others. It is as if people were to say from now on 'stealing is suave' or 'killing is cute'. 'Big is beautiful', why yes, I'll have another piece of cake, because it'll make me pretty. Why not throw on a couple scoops of ice cream, my butt could use more beauty curve. (I'm clearly blowing this out of proportion, but to make a point.)

This phrase, this thinking is an enabler. It allows people to continue living unhealthy lives. It gives them an excuse, allowing them to avoid taking action. It is much easier to eat pie all day that it is to run 40 minutes. It allows people to be big, fat, lazy, and worst of all selfish. Obesity is costing us dearly. Millions are spent in hospitals on a problem that is completely preventable. Insurance rates are and will continue to rise because not you, but someone else desides to wine and dine.

Not only is this hurting us economically, but worse still it is hurting our future. Think of all the money that is constantly being thrown at new health care products. The money that is going into all the Slimfasts, all the tummy staples, all the medicines to help control hunger and lose weight. Weight loss has become a huge money maker for many companies. Farmicutial companies are busy working on new weight loss drugs knowing that the are cash crops. Millions are to be made. Think of all the time and effort that goes into this research. Think what could be done if this effort was going into cancer research. Into AIDS research. Into Parkinson’s, Alzheimers, …….. (insert your disease of choice). Our future is suffering because of unhealthy lifestyle choices.

Fat is not ugly. Beauty comes in all shapes, all sizes, and it truly is in the eye of the beholder. A woman who has confidence, self esteem doesn’t need to look herself in the mirror and remind herself that ‘big is beautiful’. She’ll look at herself and see a beautiful person. Beautiful people don’t need to come up with ‘catch phrases’ to tell the world that they’re beautiful.

What I’m trying to say is that if we as a society accept this mentality, then we’re headed in the wrong direction. We’re hurting ourselves, our children, their children. People who adopt this mentality are only cheating themselves. I think of it as a smoker who knows that their habit is deadly, but continue. Perhaps the phrase should be changed to ‘Big is beautiful, but unhealthy and I want to take care of myself and others’. Or perhaps thin people should adopt a phrase: ‘Thin is beautiful, and I’d be just as beautiful bigger but I know that I’d be damaging and risking my health.’

I have a hard time expressing my thoughts, but hopefully I was able to make my feelings understood.

Here's my thoughts, your initial reaction may be that I'm a jerk, but hopefully I'll redeem myself in the end.

The thinking of 'big is beautiful' is just a cop out that fat, lazy, low self esteem people use.....

Word! I totally agree with everything you say.

I have another slightly related question; The health car system in the States is different from the one in most european countries. In the US you "must" have a healt insurance, right? :confused: Obese people is a burdon on the health care system, in europe, since the healt care system is funded by the tax payers, I am paying for obese peoples health problems. How is it in the States? does anyone have a short explenation of how it works "over there" :o

Word! I totally agree with everything you say.

I have another slightly related question; The health car system in the States is different from the one in most european countries. In the US you "must" have a healt insurance, right? :confused: Obese people is a burdon on the health care system, in europe, since the healt care system is funded by the tax payers, I am paying for obese peoples health problems. How is it in the States? does anyone have a short explenation of how it works "over there" :o

In the US - no one is "required" to have health care. There are literally people who wander around with none in hopes they never get sick or hurt. Often - when they do (and usually its inevitable) - it becomes a serious financial situation for them as healthcare costs here are steadily increasing.

We do however offer basic medical care for people who fall below the poverty line and the elderly (who are usually far below the poverty line in the US) (single/unwed parents with children who are close to the poverty line also - this can vary from state to state) and theres a TON of controversy over spending taxpayers dollars for medical conditions that could be prevented simply by losing some weight.

Companies also complain that the cost of insurance is high for the same reason. I am fortunate that I work for a company that is self insured and they offer the BEST, most complete health benefits in the world. They take the cost of obesity so seriously that part of our health plan is an 8 month weight loss "plan" where if you are considered obese (or overweight with 2 or more health risks such as High Blood Pressure or Heart Disease, etc) they send you to whats essentially a weight loss clinic where you sit down with registered dieticians and doctors and figure out what's not working for you. It incorporates weight training/cardio, diet and monitoring by a physician.

If more companies would do this kind of approach - rather than jumping on the stomach-stapling bandwagon (I think its ridiculous those procedures are 100% covered by insurance - and even encouraged by physicians)

We're still kicking around the idea of socialized medicine in the US- but as always - we're too busy building new basketball stadiums (a local pet peeve in Charlotte) and bombing countries in the middle east to get it together and solve our health care issues.

(Doh - that comment probably bordered on political discussion - sorry John - I'll behave)

If someone wants (or just hasn't tryed enough to lose) to be overweight, I'm fine with it. If they are fine with me being the way I am, then I am fine the way they are.

I believe overweight is not good, but I'm not gonna 100% pre-judge someone.

I hate when some obese person requests a wheelchair at the mall or a store because they are 1. disabled, or 2. to lazzy to walk. It pisses me off even more when they take their time to move. This aint a diss on obese wheelchair riddin homies only. I was in the all great walmart yesterday and I was in the catfood section. There was an old man in a wheelchair, looking around. Well, the item I needed to get to was right where he was parked. I waited a few seconds after he noticed me standing there. Well about a minute passed and HE GOT UP... walked over to the other side of the isle and started reading some box. ..... ........ ...................?! The son of a !@#$$ thought he was better than me. I did the right thing, I walked over got what I wanted and left. I should have beat the living !@#$ out of him. Pure lazzy peice of garbage.

Being overweight is not fun. I can't 100% relate to you guys since obesity is not yet a national epidemic here. But I do see some people who are extremely obese (IMO), and I can say from their facial expression it's as if they're saying, "I'm not happy with the way I look, and I wish there's a magic pill that can help me!"
What I'm trying to say is, overweight people are upset with the way they look, even though some of them are trying to hide it away. And I'm sure most of them are conscious enough with the way they look. Especially teenagers.

Now, male and female are very different here. For a female, being too thin is acceptable. I know it sounds weird but believe me, I have a friend who is very thin (because she was sick) and told me a couple of times that she wish that she can gain some weight. But aside from that, when other female saw here (be it fit or fat), they always say, "Gee, I wish I could be that thin..."
For the male, it's another concept. Male are less concious because it's natural for male to look bigger. So being too thin is out of one male's dream.

But again IMO, the society you live in dictates what's normal and what's not. Here, most people aren't that big. Most of them are thin. So if a person from a large people society (US, Europe...) see him/her, they would say that this average person is anorexic :lol: On the other hand, people here who are big (muscular) will gain more respect rather than the lean, swimmer's body look. :(

There is no "big is beautiful culture" -- not by a long shot. We do define beauty in this culture, and it is usually about 5 feet 11 inches tall and 115 pounds as it boldly walks down the runway wearing the latest fashion accessories. I know the intent of the question is to prompt the usual hackneyed assaults on our "fat culture", but the "big is beautiful" mantra did not come about as a celebration of being fat/unhealthy, but rather as a point of defiance against the unrealistic and unhealthy standards of beauty that are often promoted in the media.

I admit, I do find the sanctimonious posturing on this board to be a bit nauseating at times...referring to fat people as lazy, selfish, and even as catalysts for destroying society! Sheesh. I guess that makes those of us who've taken steps to get thin, look good, and be healthy feel all the more better about ourselves because this is indeed prima facie evidence of our hard-working, selfless and pro-social ways :rolleyes:

Come on people, this is nothing more than a classic example of egocentrism -- You attribute your values to other people, and then when their behavior fails to meet YOUR values, it supposedly shows that they are lazy bums. That is, you conveniently ignore all of your weaknesses, selectively pick out an area in which you excel, and judge everybody else on how closely they measure up to your strong areas -- and from that, make global assessments of the other person's character. I had a professor once who suggested that people who didn't understand the basics of quantum mechanics were lazy. He was fat by the way. So, the professor's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, and the fit person's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, are radically different, but equally judgmental without merit. Likely, each would call the other lazy.

I've got plenty of colleagues who are overweight who regularly put in 60-70 hours per week at their jobs, and still do everything they can to plan time with their families. Are these people lazy? Certainly not! They simply do not place the same level of value on being fit that those of us at JSF do. That doesn't make them lazy or selfish, it just means that, in their minds, being fit isn't valuable enough to outweigh the cost of getting there. We all have our own set of things that we value, and it doesn't make much sense for us to pick out the things that matter the most to us, and use that as a standard to judge everybody else. Certainly we can lament the health problems that being overweight has for our society, but there is simply no need to attack the personal integrity of people who are overweight.

It would be nice if people would stay focused on improving their own health and fitness....rather than using that it as a means to look down on everyone else who isn't fit.

I hate when some obese person requests a wheelchair at the mall or a store because they are 1. disabled, or 2. to lazzy to walk. It pisses me off even more when they take their time to move. This aint a diss on obese wheelchair riddin homies only. I was in the all great walmart yesterday and I was in the catfood section. There was an old man in a wheelchair, looking around. Well, the item I needed to get to was right where he was parked. I waited a few seconds after he noticed me standing there. Well about a minute passed and HE GOT UP... walked over to the other side of the isle and started reading some box. ..... ........ ...................?! The son of a !@#$$ thought he was better than me. I did the right thing, I walked over got what I wanted and left. I should have beat the living !@#$ out of him. Pure lazzy peice of garbage.

Maybe the guy has a disease that limits his mobility. I had a highschool teacher that used a wheelchair. He could get up and walk around briefly, but if he moved more than about 30 feet, he started to experience extreme pain. He had MS. I'd likely consider that possibility before referring to the guy as a "lazy peice of garbage". He may have enough problems to deal with without having judgmental young people (who are fortunate enough to have their health intact) giving him grief.

Come on people, this is nothing more than a classic example of egocentrism -- You attribute your values to other people, and then when their behavior fails to meet YOUR values, it supposedly shows that they are lazy bums. That is, you conveniently ignore all of your weaknesses, selectively pick out an area in which you excel, and judge everybody else on how closely they measure up to your strong areas -- and from that, make global assessments of the other person's character. I had a professor once who suggested that people who didn't understand the basics of quantum mechanics were lazy. He was fat by the way. So, the professor's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, and the fit person's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, are radically different, but equally judgmental without merit. Likely, each would call the other lazy....


That was such a great read! You've really doubled my respect for you! :)

That was such a great read! You've really doubled my respect for you! :)

Thank you Gila! That made my day :)

I guess if people want their own club to celebrate how unhealthy they are, the more the merrier.


That says it all. Strength in numbers doesn't make the fact that they're consciously damaging themselves right. It's their right until they become a burden to me - and they are just that, now, in the U.S., with the skyrocketing cost of healthcare.

I like the idea of a pro-rated health care system - your health care costs could be based in part on your state of health. I.e., if you're a tub of lard continuously shoveling unhealthy food down your gullet, it'll cost you more to maintain health care - as it should. Why should I - some one who's in great health now, after a long and focused effort, pay the same cost for health care that a 300-lb. woman does? I work with one such woman, who's at the doctor 2~3 times a week and has a ton of prescriptions - yet she and I pay the same amount for our health care. How can that be equitable?

Bah. There is no good solution, so I'll do what everyone else does - just let them be unhealthy. I don't have to live in their bodies. Insane that anybody would want to exist that way.

-R

ive got a few friends to realise the importance of living healthy, so thats my best, all we can do if tell people to eat healthy and exercise , we cant make them, all though some of you might want to lol.
and the more fat peope i see the better i feel :p .
and what whoareume said, i tottaly argree, thats guy could be a philoospher.

fosse

We all have our own set of things that we value, and it doesn't make much sense for us to pick out the things that matter the most to us, and use that as a standard to judge everybody else. Certainly we can lament the health problems that being overweight has for our society, but there is simply no need to attack the personal integrity of people who are overweight.
:bow:
Well said. Sure it frustrates and saddens me when I see an obese person who doesn't place a priority on being physically fit. But it's no more right for me to condemn that person as it is for that person to criticise my incredible ignorance of geography, or my messy house.

Ok yes. I think I did go a bit far and not think about the people who ARE disabled and cant help it. But why shouldnt they have to have resepct for the rest of us?

And what the heck is this:

tell me you wouldnt want to dive in a swimming pool of soft choc chip cookie-dough?

mmmmmmmm yum :drool:
Although I just imagined trying to swim through it, and my arms and legs are tired already. That would be hard work. And I'd probably never want cookie dough again. :d_frown:

That image really just caught my eye. I return you to your regularly scheduled debate...

That is, you conveniently ignore all of your weaknesses, selectively pick out an area in which you excel, and judge everybody else on how closely they measure up to your strong areas -- and from that, make global assessments of the other person's character.

Joe, just because someone chooses to achieve the highest possible level of physical health doesn't mean they necessarily ignored every other aspect of their lives. Look at how we respond to the meatheads who spend all their time in a gym pumping iron? We don't exactly idolize them.

You can and should aspire to achieve in all aspects of your being. We should take a cue from ancient Greeks. Many of the greatest philosopers in Greek history were also disciplined physically and were extradordinary physical specimens.

What I just can’t understand is how people let themselves get to that point… I know that I didn’t see exactly how much bigger I had been getting (in the mirror) until I saw a picture of myself that was taken at Roger’s cousins wedding… but I had only gained maybe 20 lbs… when I saw the picture and thought about what clothes I couldn’t fit into anymore I realized that I had gotten lazy and was letting myself go… I was disgusted with myself and started watching what I ate and started hitting the gym harder again… I could NEVER let myself go that far (remembering the picture of the woman sitting on the bench) *shudder* how do you not notice that you’ve put on 100 or more lbs??? how can you just not care and keep eating and gaining??? I just don’t understand the mentality… I’ve heard extremely obese people say that they wish they could lose weight, and then stuff a bagel with a thick layer of full fat cream cheese in their mouth… when they quit chewing they start waxing on about how it’s just too hard to do so they just don’t try *shaking my head*

On the other hand there are people, like a good friend of mine, and like many on this board, that DO see the problem and DO realize that they can do something about it. My friend has lost more than 100lbs in the past year, and she’s working on the next hundred as we speak… she’s making GREAT progress… to the unknowing eye she looks like an obese, lazy, unhealthy person (as others have said here), but *I* know how hard she’s working at losing that weight and how much she has already lost… she is making phenomenal progress and I’m so very happy for her. She got married a few months ago and you could see in her smile and attitude how much happier she was, she knows she has a long way to go still, but she’s getting their and she knows it.

It’s the people that just don’t feel they could do it that I just don’t understand… they stuff their face with crap and then wonder how they got so fat. What really blows my mind is that I’ve heard people like this say things like “well, I’m not like you, you don’t have to do anything and your thin” to me, ME, the person who’s been busting my ass twice a day, everyday (with a few exceptions) at the gym… me, the one who’s watching every bite I take to make sure I don’t go over my macros and stay with my calorie needs for the day *sigh*… but when I try to explain all that, the standard response is something like “I could never do all that, it sounds too hard”, even after I’ve explained that they wouldn’t have to be nearly as strict as I am to see results… its frustrating to see someone, who is obviously unhappy about how they look, just give up and keep piling on the pounds… especially when there is so much help for them out there.

Joe, just because someone chooses to achieve the highest possible level of physical health doesn't mean they necessarily ignored every other aspect of their lives.
...
You can and should aspire to achieve in all aspects of your being.

He's not saying that any of us are ignoring other aspects of our lives for our fitness. He's saying that we sometimes have a tendency to judge other people - and that judgment is often based on our own prowess within the context of a certain subject or ability on which we can be considered experts to some degree. In this case, we can sometimes be very judgmental (and I'm guilty, too) of other people because they have less reverence for their bodies than we do.

I'm actually becoming well versed in the ancient Greek, Roman, and Renaissance philosophers. I just finished reading a book about the life of Cicero. I've read similar biographies of Euclid and Aristotle and several about Renaissance architects/engineers. Most of them were independently wealthy and had the time to devote themselves to the pursuit of self-improvement.

I think you misinterpreted that point. I don't ignore any aspect of my life, however, there are certain things I care to provide more attention than others, as do we all. And the ancient philosophers? As I said, they have a few extra bucks in their pockets and didn't work 50~60 hour weeks like I do.

-R

And what the heck is this:

Funny you should put that picture - it created a huge debate when was posted recently on a humor forum I like to read.
Some people thought the picture was funny and made appropriate remarks, the others (and I'm among them) thought that it was cruel to judge the woman. Not only did someone take her picture, obviousely violating her right of privacy, but just look at her!! Does she look happy? Or normal? That woman looks ill and sad, and no one knows what mental and/or phisical (hormonal) problems she may be suffering from.

What I just can’t understand is how people let themselves get to that point…

It’s the people that just don’t feel they could do it that I just don’t understand… they stuff their face with crap and then wonder how they got so fat. What really blows my mind is that I’ve heard people like this say things like “well, I’m not like you, you don’t have to do anything and your thin” to me, ME, the person who’s been busting my ass twice a day, everyday (with a few exceptions) at the gym… me, the one who’s watching every bite I take to make sure I don’t go over my macros and stay with my calorie needs for the day *sigh*… but when I try to explain all that, the standard response is something like “I could never do all that, it sounds too hard”, even after I’ve explained that they wouldn’t have to be nearly as strict as I am to see results… its frustrating to see someone, who is obviously unhappy about how they look, just give up and keep piling on the pounds… especially when there is so much help for them out there.

I agree with what you've said - I really feel sorry for these kinds of people. Its also extremely frustrating to try to get them to understand simply eliminating the flood of simple sugars (cokes/vending machine garbage, fast food) could single handedly help them drop 10-20 lbs in a month!

A story I shared with a colleague the other day

On my way to work I stopped to pick up a bottle of water as I like to keep a 1 litre bottle at my desk all day and am constantly refilling it. So I go into this gas station and grab my water and get up to the counter. There's a woman and her son - and the woman is very large (similar to the picture posted above by guerrillaradio) and her son who is probably 12 or 13 is about half her size and has large droopy man-breasts. I stood there in line patiently with my normal expressionless grimace on waiting for her son to pick out what 4 different kinds of candy he was going to buy thinking to myself - that poor kid will never have a chance - one can only hope he will go to college and find out what his parents have taught him about eating and exercise is all wrong.

So anyway - the mom notices me behind her and starts hurrying the kid up and acting as though they're really inconviencing me (I haven't moved or said a word mind you) - and pays for their stuff and waddles out the door as fast as she can manage. I notice she's left her wallet on the counter so I say loud enough she can hear me "M'am - don't forget your wallet!"

And here's where I had the urge to punch her - she looks at me with this nasty frown on her face and snatches her wallet off the counter! :mad:

The lady behind the counter says to me "Now - isn't that rewarding being so honest like that?" obviously not noticing how nasty the woman acted towards me. I wanted to say "Yeah - I should have picked it up and threw it at her."

Granted - it could have been she was just having a bad day or whatever - but man it tweaked my nerves!!!!

Ok yes. I think I did go a bit far and not think about the people who ARE disabled and cant help it. But why shouldnt they have to have resepct for the rest of us?

And what the heck is this:


now that describes the term morbidly obese, how could you let your self get that big though, yeah i know you dont really notice when u put a few pounds on, but surely all her exess weight would stop her doing every days things,eg tieing ur shoes. :confused:

I second Mr. Schmo's comments. Coming from a long line of obesity myself, I know that all obese people are not "lazy peices of garbage." Just thinking that people see my parents and think that is appalling. I think JoeSchmo's section about his professor should make us realize that many of us do the same thing.
I saw a girl on a seguey(sp?) at school a while back, and I thought "rich bitch," then I heard that she had a muscular problem that she can stand but not walk for any length of time. I felt pretty bad, and I almost wanted to apologize to her for my thought. I hope maybe those of us here with thoughts like that about, not just obese people, but all that differ from us, can reconsider their views and become more accepting toward all people.
Then a rainbow can sprout from my buttocks and fuzzy bears will go by skipping and holding hands.
I won't hold my breath...

-Jeff

Then a rainbow can sprout from my buttocks and fuzzy bears will go by skipping and holding hands.

-Jeff

LMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:

I mostly agree with JoeSchmoe... but then I think thse things also: I don't look down on someone who's obese- I've been about 30 lbs overweight for 12 years, but I have been active the whole time, worked inside and outside the home for most of that time, so not lazy.

However, I do think that our culture is beginning to promote an idea that obese people should just accept their weight along with the rest of their personality. "Self-acceptance" is great, but if part of what I should accept is unhealthy obesity, then why can't I also smoke? It was a huger part of my personality than my weight ever was, yet it's socially unacceptable for me to smoke, was expensive, and it limited my fitness, so i quit. Aren't those negative things on a parallel with obesity?

Point being, we place social sanctions on anyone who fails to conform to our cultural ideals. That includes the obese, the homeless, smokers, and drinkers, and anyone who appears to consiously *choose* an alternative lifestyle. Is it nice? no. Is it part of human nature and a key element in forming societies and cultures? Yep! hate ot say it, but these types of sanctions are part of our glue.

The only time i have a problem with obese people is when their obesity affects me beyond my patience, and I do have plenty of patience and compassion, even for those who *choose* an unhealthy lifestyle... it's like, be as unhealthy as you want, that's your prerogative. But if everytime i see you ,you are putting down on yourself about your weight while eating a greasy burger, I'm eventually going to run out of patience. Or if I'm at the movies and some ginormous person squeezes past me, putting their asscrack right in my face and knocking the drink from my hand (true story!) and not even bothering to say 'excuse me". Or like an obese friend of mine who always asks me before she orders something, 'You're into fitness and stuff. Is this fattening?' and when I say yes, she not only orders it but gets dessert, too, saying "Well i gues i can walk it off later", knowing she has no intention to do so.

ps: Let me add that odor of the aforementioned asscrack would have knocked a buzzard off a gut-wagon. :d_eek: If someone can't properly wipe their arse because they can't reach it, safe to say they are outside the "normal" range of being overweight.

What I just can’t understand is how people let themselves get to that point…

Well I for one got to this point because of several reasons. First I have never really cared about how I looked so any concern of looking fat would be lost on me. Even now that I am getting in shape my looks, to me, are only a secondary benefit to my health.

Second, I didn't grow up eating anything all that healthy or with parents that exercised or even participated in any sort of sports. So even at times in the past when I would say "I should get some better food." I would go to the store and be at a loss as to what to buy. I really didn't eat any veggies growing up so which ones do I buy? This whole scenario would play out when it came to exercise also. Even though I did know a little bit more about exercise than I did diet.

It's hard to find out information on how to eat healthy with it out it being some weird diet. If you watch the news at all it makes it even more confusing. (ie Carbs are bad, etc)

People who are over weight are that way for any number of hundreds of reasons. I can only speak from my experience. I used to eat when I was sad, when I was bored, etc. I knew I did it. People that don't understand how someone could let themselves get overweight don't understand because they have the opposite mentality than that of an overweight person.

I musta have heard my dad say a hundred times that we were overweight because of genetics. So there were times when I was younger that I thought I was heavy because of my genetics. Not much hope when you think you are doomed to be large. I will never be the lanky runner type, as I am built like a line backer, but I do understand now I can be fit.

I have a friend that is a social worker. She used to tell me stories about how she'd have to tell parents to buy food for their kids before buying cigarettes, beer and lotto tickets. It's something that's common sense to most of us, but I am sure to the folks she had to tell that to it was probably what they saw their parents do/act.

It's also much easier here in the U.S. to eat a poor diet then it is to eat a healthy one and we love easy!

Anyway my point is that remember your perspective on things isn't everyones perspective.

-- Jeremy

This has been a very interesting topic. I do notice that I sometimes look at fat people and think I'm better than them, even though I'm really not, but well, anything to improve my self esteem.

This topic kind of relates to that topic I made about a month or two ago about whether obesity is an indicidual's fault or society's fault. I mean, you can criticize someone who's eating a bagel and complaining about being fat, but a year ago I wasn't aware that eating a bagel with cream cheese for breakfast made you fat. When I was in school I was about 180 pounds. I wasn't really obese, I was pretty muscular, but I had a beer gut. I went to the gym 3 times a week and in addition to doing strength training I did cardio. I figured if I just kept on doing cardio I would lose the gut, but it didn't work. I just couldn't understand why my beer gut wasn't going away. I really never considered dieting because I really didn't understand what healthy eating was. When one of my friends told me sugar makes you fat I couldn't believe it. It sounded so odd, I mean, I always thought eating fried foods and stuff like that made you fat, I couldn't understand how drinking soda could make you fat. I mean, yeah, there was that low carb craze, but I always thought that was nonsense.

And of course, part of the reason I didn't diet was because I think I kind of used food as a reward. I mean, I was depressed, I still am actually, but back then food was like my only reward. I didn't have a girlfriend or a job or a car or anything that really made me happy, well except getting As on all my tests and papers and stuff, but most college people don't consider that nearly as much of an accomplishment as getting laid or buying a nice car. But, food was always there to make me happy. The thought of giving up the one thing that made me happy wasn't really something that I wanted to do. However, after I graduated I found a website that said "6 pack abs are made in the kitchen, not in the gym." So, I figured, all right, either I try to clean up my diet or I die trying. And it was really hard, I was still depressed, even suicidal, but I devoted my life to losing weight. Actually, I would even go as far as to say I was obsessed with losing weight. I would sometimes scream at my mom when she bought food that was unhealthy, I would plan my schedule around working out, I went months without cheating and then when I did cheat I would be completely frustrated with guilt and that would only make me more depressed and upset.

Man, I feel like I just wrote way too much personal information, but the point is, if someone is overweight, chances are they don't like it, but maybe they don't understand how to lose it or they're just not at a point in their life where they could do what needed to be done to lose weight. Actually, I think I wouldn't have ever bothered dieting if I didn't reach the rock bottom point of total depression. I mean, I say if you're overweight and happy good for you. I wish I could be happy about myself, but my stomach still isn't flat even after losing over 20 pounds. I don't know if my post added anything to the conversation, but, hope someone found it interesting.

There is no "big is beautiful culture" -- not by a long shot. We do define beauty in this culture, and it is usually about 5 feet 11 inches tall and 115 pounds as it boldly walks down the runway wearing the latest fashion accessories. I know the intent of the question is to prompt the usual hackneyed assaults on our "fat culture", but the "big is beautiful" mantra did not come about as a celebration of being fat/unhealthy, but rather as a point of defiance against the unrealistic and unhealthy standards of beauty that are often promoted in the media.

I admit, I do find the sanctimonious posturing on this board to be a bit nauseating at times...referring to fat people as lazy, selfish, and even as catalysts for destroying society! Sheesh. I guess that makes those of us who've taken steps to get thin, look good, and be healthy feel all the more better about ourselves because this is indeed prima facie evidence of our hard-working, selfless and pro-social ways :rolleyes:

Come on people, this is nothing more than a classic example of egocentrism -- You attribute your values to other people, and then when their behavior fails to meet YOUR values, it supposedly shows that they are lazy bums. That is, you conveniently ignore all of your weaknesses, selectively pick out an area in which you excel, and judge everybody else on how closely they measure up to your strong areas -- and from that, make global assessments of the other person's character. I had a professor once who suggested that people who didn't understand the basics of quantum mechanics were lazy. He was fat by the way. So, the professor's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, and the fit person's standard of what constitutes a lazy person, are radically different, but equally judgmental without merit. Likely, each would call the other lazy.

I've got plenty of colleagues who are overweight who regularly put in 60-70 hours per week at their jobs, and still do everything they can to plan time with their families. Are these people lazy? Certainly not! They simply do not place the same level of value on being fit that those of us at JSF do. That doesn't make them lazy or selfish, it just means that, in their minds, being fit isn't valuable enough to outweigh the cost of getting there. We all have our own set of things that we value, and it doesn't make much sense for us to pick out the things that matter the most to us, and use that as a standard to judge everybody else. Certainly we can lament the health problems that being overweight has for our society, but there is simply no need to attack the personal integrity of people who are overweight.

It would be nice if people would stay focused on improving their own health and fitness....rather than using that it as a means to look down on everyone else who isn't fit.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! :claphigh: This thread was seriously getting under my skin until your post. I'm glad that some people who live a healthy lifestyle don't look down and make fun of others who don't choose the exact path. I love your work/family example.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! :claphigh: This thread was seriously getting under my skin until your post. I'm glad that some people who live a healthy lifestyle don't look down and make fun of others who don't choose the exact path. I love your work/family example.

I find it interesting how many people jumped on the bandwagon that Pete's question somehow implied everyone was supposed to get down on the obese population.

I kept reading the posts in here asking myself who said what and why was everyone getting so bent out of shape. (I realize a couple of people did post to that end - but that wasn't the original question)

My take on what Pete asked was how society all of a sudden - after the big "We realized fast food and saturated fat really is bad for you craze" which was post "Carbs kill you" craze which was post "All fat kills you" craze of the 80s - to now it's like we're starting to say things like "We're all not as fat as we thought we were" and "It's better that you carry around some extra weight".

My thoughts were that the diet/supplement industry must have hired some crappy lobbyists - or else the rest of the food industry hired some better ones for a change.

"Milk is great for you" - "Carbs don't kill, only refined ones do - so have some more high fructose corn syrup" - "Beef - it's whats for dinner"

As for individuals - I was one of those tubby people - and I hated myself when I was tubby - not because I was tubby but because I didn't know how to change. Trust me - there's no need to hate the obese - they do enough of that on their own to themselves.

Reading all these new posts I understand that my previous comment may have irritated some people. I didn't want to say that 'fat' people are lazy, sitting around all day pie eating people. I just feel that they make poor choices, and refuse to take responsibility for their actions. To speak from experience allow me to use my mom, who sadly has been obese for as long as I remember. She's always taken good care of us at home, no one is more willing to help than her. (I'm sure many of us can say that about our parents) She'd wake up every morning at 5 to take my sisters to sports practice, come home, work, pick us up from school, then take us to after school activities. She'd cook, clean, ect. She worked, and was far from lazy. However sometimes at night she'd kick back with ice cream, cake, whatever we had for desert. This really bugged me. I mean, I'd wonder if she'd seen herself. As years went on she continued to get bigger, and I'm not going to lie, I'd almost feel disgusted when I'd see her lay on the couch with a big bowl of ice cream and cookies. Kind of like how when you go to an all you can eat buffet and find a huge couple, pants bursting, finishing off plate after plate of fried chicken. I just don't understand how some people can let that happen, knowing that they're killing themselfs. I mean, I can see how a person can get themselves into that condition, food is a powerful drug. Socially a person feels fat, stops caring about themselves, lets go, says I'm fat already, and keeps eating. Each person's body image is a very powerful thing, and can ruin days. I let myself go for a while, that's why I gained weight. But I realized that if I continued down that road I was going to end up with serious health problems. So I found this forum, and since have been eating healthy (mostly, had a slip up).
I want to set my record straight: 'fat' people are not lazy. I believe, possibly, that they don't think things through. Possibly like smokers, who know they'll die but don't quit. I don't like the thinking big is beautiful because it allows, enables, people to continue living unhealthy lifestyles. No, it isn't fair to judge people on first sight. But sometimes you can't help it, and when you see a man who's gut is busting at the seems stuffing himself with junk, it's really hard. Kind of like seeing a patient hooked up to an oxygen tank smoking.

I find it interesting how many people jumped on the bandwagon that Pete's question somehow implied everyone was supposed to get down on the obese population.

I kept reading the posts in here asking myself who said what and why was everyone getting so bent out of shape. (I realize a couple of people did post to that end - but that wasn't the original question)

My take on what Pete asked was how society all of a sudden - after the big "We realized fast food and saturated fat really is bad for you craze" which was post "Carbs kill you" craze which was post "All fat kills you" craze of the 80s - to now it's like we're starting to say things like "We're all not as fat as we thought we were" and "It's better that you carry around some extra weight".

My thoughts were that the diet/supplement industry must have hired some crappy lobbyists - or else the rest of the food industry hired some better ones for a change.

"Milk is great for you" - "Carbs don't kill, only refined ones do - so have some more high fructose corn syrup" - "Beef - it's whats for dinner"

As for individuals - I was one of those tubby people - and I hated myself when I was tubby - not because I was tubby but because I didn't know how to change. Trust me - there's no need to hate the obese - they do enough of that on their own to themselves.

I don't think people are "jumping on the bandwagon", but rather, they were merely objecting to some of the posts which implied that being overweight suggested personal integrity flaws from which the rest of us fit people are largely immune -- i.e. that being overweight was indicative of laziness, selfishness, and even being anti-social. Of course, it doesn't suggest any of those things, and to conclude that it does is to view the world largely through our own ego-centric prism and frame of reference.

You suggest that the discussion drifted from Pete's question, but from my reading of his post, he really didn't ask any specific question -- but merely posed an open-ended "what do you think?"....which prompted many of the posts that some of us are taking issue with. But, if you are wondering why societal views of obesity etc. seem rather fickle, it is mainly because the science is imprecise, its intepretation imprecise and subject to agendas in both directions, and it is also subject to current public sentiment and media spin. I think until we get more precise and definative experimental answers, it will continue to be so.

I've gotta say, I think when I'm 50 or 60 I'm probably going to start shoving my face with ice cream and junk all the time too, I mean, I really think people's priorities just change as they age. I mean, my grandmother would say "Who cares about eating healthy? I'm 90, I've won!" When you reach a certain age many people just reach a point where their body is no longer important. They think about other things.

I've gotta say, I think when I'm 50 or 60 I'm probably going to start shoving my face with ice cream and junk all the time too, I mean, I really think people's priorities just change as they age. I mean, my grandmother would say "Who cares about eating healthy? I'm 90, I've won!" When you reach a certain age many people just reach a point where their body is no longer important. They think about other things.

True. But what about the younger people? :tu:

I'm 'Obese' I have been all my life, I long to be thinner, more muscular and fitter.........I'm working towards it as hard as I can. I'm sure I'm fitter than some thin people. People might think I'm lazy but not the people who I care about, friends, family, girlfriend.....they know the truth, they know I work hard, they know I try to eat the best I can, and they know I'm in the gym most nights working out or playing sport.....So who is anyone else to judge?

Visteon, I was curious about the Sloganizer in your signature, so I had to try it out. This is what it gave me:
"Be young, have fun, taste guava"
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Visteon, I was curious about the Sloganizer in your signature, so I had to try it out. This is what it gave me:
"Be young, have fun, taste guava"
:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's funny, I received "Be young, have fun, taste naked ladies"

If only I had saved it? I didn't know that it changes everytime you refresh or w/e...

Oh and "I quit smoking with naked ladies" :cool:

"naked ladies for a better future"

I find it interesting how many people jumped on the bandwagon that Pete's question somehow implied everyone was supposed to get down on the obese population.

I kept reading the posts in here asking myself who said what and why was everyone getting so bent out of shape. (I realize a couple of people did post to that end - but that wasn't the original question)

My take on what Pete asked was how society all of a sudden - after the big "We realized fast food and saturated fat really is bad for you craze" which was post "Carbs kill you" craze which was post "All fat kills you" craze of the 80s - to now it's like we're starting to say things like "We're all not as fat as we thought we were" and "It's better that you carry around some extra weight".



Actually, I wasn't "bent out of shape" at Pete's question because it could have been taken lots of ways. What I was "bent out of shape" about were some of the replies to his question.

My comments where only directed at the people that posted that they don't understand how some one could "let themselves go" or however it was phrased. I can understand someone who has been fit their whole lives having this point of view.

I think obesity is like heroin or some other drug. Obesity feeds obesity. Once you fall into it getting out is tough. It makes you tired, unmotivated, and depressed. So you eat which gives you a little high, but once the high is gone you are just fatter and more depressed. So on and so on.

The fast food industry definitely has better lobbyists. Look at the way Americans eat.

Just my $.02.

-- Jeremy