Today I tried some ephedra stacked with caffeine for the first time. In order to ease my body into it, I went for 12.5 mg of ephedrine hcl with 200 mg of caffeine. Tomorrow I intend to up it to the full 25 mg. I am just wondering, if I took this stack at 8 am, then 12 pm, would that be too much in too short of a time?

Would it be wise to incorporate something else into my stack to increase the fatloss?


Does Ephedrine keep you awake at night like caffeine does? Or would I be able to take one at say 4 pm and sleep soundly?

Thank you for your time!

ECA stacking is becoming a hot topic around these forums. Wonder where all the sudden interest is coming from?

I've been on the stack for a few weeks now and I take 25E/200C/81A at 7:30, 12:30, and 5:30 and I don't really feel any effects when it's time for bed.

8am then 12pm then 5pm, try to keep them apart 5 to 6 hours

Today I tried some ephedra stacked with caffeine for the first time. In order to ease my body into it, I went for 12.5 mg of ephedrine hcl with 200 mg of caffeine. Tomorrow I intend to up it to the full 25 mg. I am just wondering, if I took this stack at 8 am, then 12 pm, would that be too much in too short of a time?


4 or 5pm is good time to take


Does Ephedrine keep you awake at night like caffeine does? Or would I be able to take one at say 4 pm and sleep soundly?

It will effect everyone different. I take it at 8am and Noon and I don't have trouble getting to sleep. I tried another dosage at 4-5pm for a few weeks but I couldnt sleep so your better off giving it a try to see what works best for you.

I can overdose on caffeine and, though I won't be tired, I can still go to sleep. My wife can't have any caffeine if she wants to sleep.

Anyway, I'd do the stack twice/day, not three times. Take it first thing in the morning and then maybe before supper.

what about a third component to the stack?? any thoughts on what will increase fat-loss?

Even a better question; does this stuff (hydroxycut, xenadrine) actually work? Or is it just a waste of money?

Even a better question; does this stuff (hydroxycut, xenadrine) actually work? Or is it just a waste of money?

The current versions of hydroxycut & xenadrine (without ephedrine) are a waste of money. The old stuff that had ephedrine did work. The ephedrine/caffeine combination is the only "diet aid" that has peer-reviewed studies showing it is effective.

Since herbal ephedra is illegal now, you have to make your own "diet pill"... 25 mg. tablet of Bronchaid or Primatine (ephedrine hcl or ephedrine sulphate) with a 200mg. Vivarin (caffeine) tablet. Some people add aspirin to the stack, since some of the studies included it.

Sorry, but I'm gonna hijack here. Can anyone tell me the difference between using just 25mg of ephedrine vs. 25mg of ephedrine plus 200 mg of caffeine? I drink 2 cups of coffee about an hour after my workout, so I do get caffeine, just not pre-workout.

Also, I didn't realize you could take several doses throughout the day. I take it primarily to get through my workout and it seems to help, but know I may take a second dose to increase the fat burning. Do most of you take several doses, or a single dose prior to your workout? THX!

I take 24mg Ephedrine HCL (comes in 8mg pills for me), 200mg Caffeine, and 325mg Asprin (generic ASA).

Some say the Asprin isn't necessary, but I haven't seen any negative side effects from it.

"Aspirin is the popular name for acetysalicylic acid. It raises the body's internal "thermostat," so that the increased production of heat, which is typical of ECA products, does not set off alarms in the body. This allows the ephedrine and caffeine to work in your body for a longer period of time, giving you the maximum fat-burning potential."

--Source: http://pharma-help.com/eca-stack

I take it twice a day, once before morning cardio (makes it SOOOO much easier), and another stack about 4 hours later.

I've noticed a huge difference in the amount of energy I can put out. I can easily do a 45-min + fasted LISS run when I'm on the stack. I can barely do 25 minutes when I'm not on it.

no shit man! i finnally gave asprin a try with my EC stack right before fasted cardio.. and dammmit!!!!.... i didnt have to walk hard to get up to 135HR. when i sprinted the hardest I could i got about to 218... ive never seen that! highest ive seen on the EC stack was 208 and that was only one time... the rest of the time im having a hard time entering 190 zone. im impressed. 218. fuck me man. of course i didnt stay there for long... to dangerous... i made sure i walk very slow after that and got down to 130HR before i moderatly jogged it again.

Oh yeah. Without the stack, I struggle to get to 145, and have to push like hell to keep it there for 45 minutes.

With the stack, I'm leisurely jogging along, usually pretty slowly and have no problem staying at 155-160.

I think the best thing about the stack is that I know cardio is easier with it. If I wasn't on the stack, I don't think I'd be doing 45 minute runs.

no shit man! i finnally gave asprin a try with my EC stack right before fasted cardio.. and dammmit!!!!.... i didnt have to walk hard to get up to 135HR. when i sprinted the hardest I could i got about to 218... ive never seen that! highest ive seen on the EC stack was 208 and that was only one time... the rest of the time im having a hard time entering 190 zone. im impressed. 218. fuck me man. of course i didnt stay there for long... to dangerous... i made sure i walk very slow after that and got down to 130HR before i moderatly jogged it again.

You guys need to take it easy on that crap. :confused:

is bronchaid a prescription drug? if not where can i find it?

No its not perscription you can get it at any local pharmacy

definitely agree this is not something to play around with, take it easy on this stuff.

If your gonna do the asprin I think the general consensus is to use an 81 mg baby asprin instead of a full strenth adult one.

hmm, for some reason this doesn't sound the least bit healthful; isn't the goal of cardio to increase stamina and be able to run harder and longer on less bpm?

btw, how chemically different is this from meth, and what about the effects? i think you use ephedra in the cooking process for meth and i'd be hesitant to say the least about taking anything meth-like. am i just being naive?

Some say the Asprin isn't necessary, but I haven't seen any negative side effects from it.


I think some people drop the aspirin from the stack because aspirin inhibits protein synthesis....thus making it more difficult for you to put on muscle and recover from your workouts.

hmm, for some reason this doesn't sound the least bit healthful; isn't the goal of cardio to increase stamina and be able to run harder and longer on less bpm?

btw, how chemically different is this from meth, and what about the effects? i think you use ephedra in the cooking process for meth and i'd be hesitant to say the least about taking anything meth-like. am i just being naive?


Sudafed and Benadryl are also used, I take it for allergies with no problems.

I thought I made a post earlier...but apparently not...

Anyway, I don't think relying on the stuff is good, but I don't take it often. I've cycled it for the past three months. Usually a one week on, one week off until I use up a bottle. I went a couple weeks without touching it for a bit.

Regardless, some people have the goal of doing cardio to increase stamina. I, on the other hand, am using cardio as a tool for fat-loss at the moment. I hate cardio, so whatever gets me out there and keeps me going is a good thing. (Yes, I know you can get a good cardio workout with weights--and I believe me, I do).

Plus, I'm not being stupid with the stack. I'm well within the recommended maximum dosages. The problems you hear with Ephedrine are a result of people thinking they can drop a lot of weight, too fast. I've done my research, and I've concluded it's pretty safe and effective.

And yes, you can use ephedrine to make meth, but I'm not. ;)

hmm, for some reason this doesn't sound the least bit healthful; isn't the goal of cardio to increase stamina and be able to run harder and longer on less bpm?

btw, how chemically different is this from meth, and what about the effects? i think you use ephedra in the cooking process for meth and i'd be hesitant to say the least about taking anything meth-like. am i just being naive?

I think some people drop the aspirin from the stack because aspirin inhibits protein synthesis....thus making it more difficult for you to put on muscle and recover from your workouts.

this true for cardio? how true is this anyways? are the effects too minimal if true?


arguable issue?

The concensus now is aspirin has no noticeable effect in the stack. Most don't take it now. The only reason I take one sometimes is for because of messed up cholesterol. Don't want any plaque buildup in my arteries. Eventually though, Aspirin causes my stomach to bleed, so I stop it when I start noticing this.

Just take EC.

On the first day of the stack, I started out my 8 am dosage with a 12.5 mg approximately of ephedrine and 200 mg of caffeine. This was going fine. However, I took a full 25 mg and 200 mg at 3 pm, and was buzzing all night long and did not sleep well at all. I am just wondering how long the ephedra buzz normally lasts. I know caffeine blocks receptors or something for like 12 hours. Today I intend to take my second dosage by 11:30

The concensus now is aspirin has no noticeable effect in the stack. Most don't take it now. The only reason I take one sometimes is for because of messed up cholesterol. Don't want any plaque buildup in my arteries. Eventually though, Aspirin causes my stomach to bleed, so I stop it when I start noticing this.

Just take EC.WTF, you've actually noticed your stomach bleeding? If you really meant to say that I'd see a doctor immediately and, obviously, never take that stack again :) I think that's not a common side effect of this stuff, however!The problems you hear with Ephedrine are a result of people thinking they can drop a lot of weight, too fast. I've done my research, and I've concluded it's pretty safe and effective.Those are the problems you hear about: people dying on the spot and things of that nature, but this stuff is still not "safe". I mean, you don't often hear about alcohol killing a person on the spot unless they overdose, but long term use of alcohol is nonetheless very bad for you (hey, we all do it, I'm just saying). I think common sense says that something that's jacking up one's metabolism notably and also increasing their heartrate by a large amount is not to be taken lightly, regardless of whether they die right after taking it or not.

LOL... no, I know it's just the aspirin. I've taken aspirin alone and it just irritates my gi tract. I have been treated by a doctor for it... just causes some blood in the stool (not to get too graphic). Aspirin is definitely known to cause this and it goes away quickly when I stop taking it. The blood is actually from the lg intestines.

(snip)Those are the problems you hear about: people dying on the spot and things of that nature, but this stuff is still not "safe". I mean, you don't often hear about alcohol killing a person on the spot unless they overdose, but long term use of alcohol is nonetheless very bad for you (hey, we all do it, I'm just saying). I think common sense says that something that's jacking up one's metabolism notably and also increasing their heartrate by a large amount is not to be taken lightly, regardless of whether they die right after taking it or not.

Agreed. It's not something I plan on taking forever. Another week and a half and I'm starting a bulk, meaning it's out the window.

And what I meant by safe is that the dangerous effects are minimized by using it properly. I mean, lifting a heavy weight is inherently dangerous if you do it wrong. When I'm on the stack, I do low-intensity cardio. My heart rate never gets above 165bpm.

I wonder if you would get more health/weight loss benefits by not being on the stack and letting your heart rate get above 165, versus staying on the stack and limiting your cardio.

-Allen

I wonder if you would get more health/weight loss benefits by not being on the stack and letting your heart rate get above 165, versus staying on the stack and limiting your cardio.

-Allen


Thats an interesting thought but with your heart rate at 165 not on a stack your body temp still won't get as high for the thermogenic affects as it would with the stack...I think? hehehe :confused:

So, does ECA stack make anyone feel kind of funny? I am on it right now, and just feel strange. It is my 2nd day. I am kind of crabby too. Maybe I am just tired though and cannot tell.

Guys the stuff works, and it can work great. But I can assure you that it isn't worth the risk. I have seen twin labs, metabolite, metabolife, and countless others pay out large sums of money to keep it quiet, but the studies are in and this stuff can lead to serious injury. If you want to lose that last couple pounds at the risk of suffering a stroke, heart attack or lung replacement, I wish you the best of luck, because I don't want to see anyone else go through what a lot of the people I've met in the past year have gone through.

Just my humble advice

Guys the stuff works, and it can work great. But I can assure you that it isn't worth the risk. I have seen twin labs, metabolite, metabolife, and countless others pay out large sums of money to keep it quiet, but the studies are in and this stuff can lead to serious injury. If you want to lose that last couple pounds at the risk of suffering a stroke, heart attack or lung replacement, I wish you the best of luck, because I don't want to see anyone else go through what a lot of the people I've met in the past year have gone through.

Just my humble advice


I am curious as to how you met all these people and know that those companies are paying to keep it quiet? To my knowledge I thought the FDA or whatever was over turning the ban or considering it.

I am curious as to how you met all these people and know that those companies are paying to keep it quiet? To my knowledge I thought the FDA or whatever was over turning the ban or considering it.


I'm a lawstudent working over the summer at a firm that does a lot of plaintiff work. One of the projects we are finishing up right now is with ephedra litigation.

Whether they are overturning the ban, I am unaware of, but what I do konw is that the reason these companies are being sued is not because the risk was minimal, but because they hid the fact that they knew that their product could cause these injuries.

Keep in mind that its never a good idea to mix products that alternatively constrict your blood vessels while increasing your blood flow.

I was a believer that ephedra was given a bum rap before I worked here, but after reading the expert reports and the information about what the drugs do, I've changed my tune. Some of these clients were in perfect health, others weren't. Bodybuilders, young athletes, average joe's, and obese people. Some had family histories, some didn't. Bottom line is I would never take the stuff after what I know.

Really, how much of a chance is worth the risk of an ischemic stroke, infarction, or primary pulmonary hypertension? 5%, 1%, .5%?

Nobody bothered to mention the fact that most if not all negative effects are caused by ABUSE not use.If I took a hand full of vitamins I seriously doubt it would go without some ill effects.

I wonder if you would get more health/weight loss benefits by not being on the stack and letting your heart rate get above 165, versus staying on the stack and limiting your cardio.

-Allen

Well, I'm doing fasted cardio in the morning, at a low intensity.

The ECA helps me get my heart rate up at that lower intensity. I actually checked this morning with a heart rate monitor, and my resting heart rate was 46bpm. So I'm in pretty good cardiovascular shape as it is. But it's not my goal to increase my endurance, it's to lose fat. I know there's a big debate with LISS versus HIIT, but I've seen the best results from LISS, and so that's what I go back to when fat loss is an issue.

To get up to 165 without the stack, I have to freakin' push, and it really doesn't feel like low intensity. Plus, I hate doing 45-minutes of cardio when all I can think about is stopping.

And Uke, I would like to know what you now know about ephedrine. Don't know if it's possible, being legal matters and all, but I'm always trying to learn more...

Anyway, I'm not going to try and defend it's use. If you want to take it, take it. If you don't want to, don't. I personally have seen no undesirable side-effects, so I'm going to do what works for me.

Guys the stuff works, and it can work great. But I can assure you that it isn't worth the risk. I have seen twin labs, metabolite, metabolife, and countless others pay out large sums of money to keep it quiet, but the studies are in and this stuff can lead to serious injury. If you want to lose that last couple pounds at the risk of suffering a stroke, heart attack or lung replacement, I wish you the best of luck, because I don't want to see anyone else go through what a lot of the people I've met in the past year have gone through.

Just my humble advice

Good advice man. Warning taken. I appreciate this.

Answer me this though.... are most of those cases from abuse and misuse? Or are there some or many that take below or at the recommended level and died or suffered a stroke or both... whatever?

Nobody bothered to mention the fact that most if not all negative effects are caused by ABUSE not use.If I took a hand full of vitamins I seriously doubt it would go without some ill effects.
Certainly abuse is the reason for the profound negatives, but I assert wholeheartedly that these things are NOT healthy for you, even when taken in the right dose. More times than no medication and foreign chemicals are not good for people. Even with something heavily developed and studied, like a medicine, it will have side effects. Anything that jacks your metabolism and heart rate has to be looked at warily.

Good advice man. Warning taken. I appreciate this.

Answer me this though.... are most of those cases from abuse and misuse? Or are there some or many that take below or at the recommended level and died or suffered a stroke or both... whatever?


Certainly some of the cases I see are for abuse. I've seen people who were taking 3 different products at once and had a history of amphetamine use. We kindly decline these cases. :)

But it's a misconception that abuse is what leads to most of the cases. I've seen many people who only took the product for 1 or 2 days, not even at the full recommended dosage, and had serious incidents from it. Basically, you have a 6 hour window after any ingestion of ephedra when something caused by ephedra could occur. Be it 1 pill or 20. Obviously 20 pills is going to do something almost every time, but I don't buy the abuse theory when there are 65 year old grandmas and 18 year old kids both having the same reaction to 2 pills a day 2 or 3 times daily and having only taken the product for a couple days.

Like I originally stated, the stuff works. But at what cost and at what risk? Straight up meth works too, but I doubt many people would recommend it so easily.

Mua hoang (sp?), aka ephedra, is nothing more than herbal speed. I always get a kick reading about the Metabolife founders, former meth producers, turned their illicit skills into a multi million dollar empire.

Certainly some of the cases I see are for abuse. I've seen people who were taking 3 different products at once and had a history of amphetamine use. We kindly decline these cases. :)

But it's a misconception that abuse is what leads to most of the cases. I've seen many people who only took the product for 1 or 2 days, not even at the full recommended dosage, and had serious incidents from it. Basically, you have a 6 hour window after any ingestion of ephedra when something caused by ephedra could occur. Be it 1 pill or 20. Obviously 20 pills is going to do something almost every time, but I don't buy the abuse theory when there are 65 year old grandmas and 18 year old kids both having the same reaction to 2 pills a day 2 or 3 times daily and having only taken the product for a couple days.

Like I originally stated, the stuff works. But at what cost and at what risk? Straight up meth works too, but I doubt many people would recommend it so easily.

Mua hoang (sp?), aka ephedra, is nothing more than herbal speed. I always get a kick reading about the Metabolife founders, former meth producers, turned their illicit skills into a multi million dollar empire.


I don't doubt that you are getting these cases, nor am I a supporter of ephedra, but I am curious what these "studies" are you are referring to and who produced them. What scientific methods did they employ and why are they not publically available?

Certainly some of the cases I see are for abuse. I've seen people who were taking 3 different products at once and had a history of amphetamine use. We kindly decline these cases. :)

But it's a misconception that abuse is what leads to most of the cases. I've seen many people who only took the product for 1 or 2 days, not even at the full recommended dosage, and had serious incidents from it. Basically, you have a 6 hour window after any ingestion of ephedra when something caused by ephedra could occur. Be it 1 pill or 20. Obviously 20 pills is going to do something almost every time, but I don't buy the abuse theory when there are 65 year old grandmas and 18 year old kids both having the same reaction to 2 pills a day 2 or 3 times daily and having only taken the product for a couple days.

Like I originally stated, the stuff works. But at what cost and at what risk? Straight up meth works too, but I doubt many people would recommend it so easily.

Mua hoang (sp?), aka ephedra, is nothing more than herbal speed. I always get a kick reading about the Metabolife founders, former meth producers, turned their illicit skills into a multi million dollar empire.


im not versed on the history of ephedra... so bare with me... but didnt the chinese use it? if so... how did they handle the product? any deaths?

and yes... please cite or give some sort of backup for the studies on epehdra you are talking about. who did the study etc.

And are we talking Ephedra, where the active ingredient content varies significantly, or Ephederine HCL?

im not versed on the history of ephedra... so bare with me... but didnt the chinese use it? if so... how did they handle the product? any deaths?

and yes... please cite or give some sort of backup for the studies on epehdra you are talking about. who did the study etc.

Haller CA, Jacob P 3rd, Benowitz NL. Pharmacology of ephedra alkaloids and caffeine after single-dose dietary supplement use. Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Jun;71(6):421-32.

KK Chen, Ephedrine. A Clinical Study. Arch Int Med. 1927 (39): 385-403, Page 387

An Herbal Supplement Containing MaHuang-Guarana for weight loss: a randomaized, double-blind trial, Boozer CN et al, International Journal of Obesity, (2001) 25; 316 - 324(“Boozer I” - 8 week study)

Dr. Norman M. Kaplan’s review ofBoozer CN, et al., Herbal ephedra/caffeine for weight loss: a 6-month randomized safety and efficacy trial. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2002 May;26(5):593-604.(“Boozer II”)

Jacobs I, Pasternak H, Bell DG. Effects of ephedrine, caffeine, and their combination on muscular endurance. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):987-94.


To name a few.

Guys, I'm not trying to prove a point here. I'm just giving advice based on what I've read. And just an FYI, in out litigation, we just passed our daubert hearing, meaning that there was enough evidence, that was reliable and generally accepted by teh scientific community, for it to be presented to a jury.

I wish you the best.

Haller CA, Jacob P 3rd, Benowitz NL. Pharmacology of ephedra alkaloids and caffeine after single-dose dietary supplement use. Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Jun;71(6):421-32.

KK Chen, Ephedrine. A Clinical Study. Arch Int Med. 1927 (39): 385-403, Page 387

An Herbal Supplement Containing MaHuang-Guarana for weight loss: a randomaized, double-blind trial, Boozer CN et al, International Journal of Obesity, (2001) 25; 316 - 324(“Boozer I” - 8 week study)

Dr. Norman M. Kaplan’s review ofBoozer CN, et al., Herbal ephedra/caffeine for weight loss: a 6-month randomized safety and efficacy trial. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2002 May;26(5):593-604.(“Boozer II”)

Jacobs I, Pasternak H, Bell DG. Effects of ephedrine, caffeine, and their combination on muscular endurance. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):987-94.


To name a few.

Guys, I'm not trying to prove a point here. I'm just giving advice based on what I've read. And just an FYI, in out litigation, we just passed our daubert hearing, meaning that there was enough evidence, that was reliable and generally accepted by teh scientific community, for it to be presented to a jury.

I wish you the best.

This review you suggested is good, and covers a lot of the literature. text (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:Nd2BYi0jnB8J:www.herbalgram.org/files/pdfs/EphedraMono.pdf+erbal+ephedra/caffeine+for+weight+loss:+a+6-month+randomized+safety&hl=en&client=firefox-a)

Although, as a scientist, I do not feel it supports the view that tons of otherwise healthy people taking small doses of it are having these adverse effects, it's good for people that do want to take it to read more about it first and decide for themselves based on an accretion of studies.

Haller CA, Jacob P 3rd, Benowitz NL. Pharmacology of ephedra alkaloids and caffeine after single-dose dietary supplement use. Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2002 Jun;71(6):421-32.

KK Chen, Ephedrine. A Clinical Study. Arch Int Med. 1927 (39): 385-403, Page 387

An Herbal Supplement Containing MaHuang-Guarana for weight loss: a randomaized, double-blind trial, Boozer CN et al, International Journal of Obesity, (2001) 25; 316 - 324(“Boozer I” - 8 week study)

Dr. Norman M. Kaplan’s review ofBoozer CN, et al., Herbal ephedra/caffeine for weight loss: a 6-month randomized safety and efficacy trial. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2002 May;26(5):593-604.(“Boozer II”)

Jacobs I, Pasternak H, Bell DG. Effects of ephedrine, caffeine, and their combination on muscular endurance. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):987-94.


To name a few.

Guys, I'm not trying to prove a point here. I'm just giving advice based on what I've read. And just an FYI, in out litigation, we just passed our daubert hearing, meaning that there was enough evidence, that was reliable and generally accepted by teh scientific community, for it to be presented to a jury.

I wish you the best.

Unfortunately more people have died from alcohol & cigarettes, throw in common aspirin for that matter, than from an ECA stack.
Ephedra just happen to be an easy, unregulated target after it went mainstream when that kid died on the ball field.

What are the health benefits of alcohol and cigarettes again ?

Unfortunately more people have died from alcohol & cigarettes, throw in common aspirin for that matter, than from an ECA stack.
Ephedra just happen to be an easy, unregulated target after it went mainstream when that kid died on the ball field.

What are the health benefits of alcohol and cigarettes again ?

Well, more people die every year from alcohol and tobacco than they do from cyanide, so does that mean that ingesting cyanide is safe? In order for the statistic to be meaningful, one would need to compare the number of adverse incidents in relation to the number of people consuming the product -- not just the absolute numbers of adverse incidents.

I think there is some level of denial among those who use ephedrine. They are always insisting that it is nothing more than media hype, and that it is all part of some conspiracy by evil politicians and puritanical government agencies to demonize a perfectly safe product. I see the same thing on steroid boards also, with some people suggest that it is even BENEFICIAL to take steroids. The fact is, there is a moderate degree of risk associated with taking ephedrine, as there is with any modestly potent stimulant. More adverste reactions and incidents have been reported with ephedrine than all other herbal supplements combined....that should tell you something.

Now, does that mean I am suggesting that ephedrine is going to kill you? No, but it does mean that you should be aware of your health status before you decide to take ephedrine. Most people just assume they are healthy without bothering to even look into their health status. Do you know your blood pressure? Do you have hyperthyroidism? Are you at risk for heart disease? What is your cholesterol level? If you don't know the answers to these questions, then you shouldn't be taking ephedrine...period.

If however, you are healthy, and meet the guidelines listed above, then you are probably not going to experience problems if you take safe dosages, and stay hydrated. Like any drug, it has its dangers, but these dangers can be vastly reduced if you are smart and stay within the recommended safety guidelines.

Answer to Krosspyder re: Aspirin: The NSAIDS (and acetaminaphin) that were tested used the maximum recommended doses per day, and protein synthesis was totally killed. However, they did not specify what would happen with lower doses. Also, there was no indication of whether the effect was a discrete "all-or'none", or whether it was a dose-dependent continuum. I suspect the latter to be true, which would mean that you would probably get mild inhibition of protein synthesis with much smaller doses.

In terms of its effect on cardio....I don't think it would have much effect, but it could have an effect on muscle building capacity following resistance training.

Well, more people die every year from alcohol and tobacco than they do from cyanide, so does that mean that ingesting cyanide is safe? In order for the statistic to be meaningful, one would need to compare the number of adverse incidents in relation to the number of people consuming the product -- not just the absolute numbers of adverse incidents.

I think there is some level of denial among those who use ephedrine. They are always insisting that it is nothing more than media hype, and that it is all part of some conspiracy by evil politicians and puritanical government agencies to demonize a perfectly safe product. I see the same thing on steroid boards also, with some people suggest that it is even BENEFICIAL to take steroids. The fact is, there is a moderate degree of risk associated with taking ephedrine, as there is with any modestly potent stimulant. More adverste reactions and incidents have been reported with ephedrine than all other herbal supplements combined....that should tell you something.

Now, does that mean I am suggesting that ephedrine is going to kill you? No, but it does mean that you should be aware of your health status before you decide to take ephedrine. Most people just assume they are healthy without bothering to even look into their health status. Do you know your blood pressure? Do you have hyperthyroidism? Are you at risk for heart disease? What is your cholesterol level? If you don't know the answers to these questions, then you shouldn't be taking ephedrine...period.

If however, you are healthy, and meet the guidelines listed above, then you are probably not going to experience problems if you take safe dosages, and stay hydrated. Like any drug, it has its dangers, but these dangers can be vastly reduced if you are smart and stay within the recommended safety guidelines.

Answer to Krosspyder re: Aspirin: The NSAIDS (and acetaminaphin) that were tested used the maximum recommended doses per day, and protein synthesis was totally killed. However, they did not specify what would happen with lower doses. Also, there was no indication of whether the effect was a discrete "all-or'none", or whether it was a dose-dependent continuum. I suspect the latter to be true, which would mean that you would probably get mild inhibition of protein synthesis with much smaller doses.

In terms of its effect on cardio....I don't think it would have much effect, but it could have an effect on muscle building capacity following resistance training.

Excellent post. Let's take a middle view on this. Know your own situation, read the medical reviews, and decide if you feel the benefits outweigh the potential risks :)

Well, more people die every year from alcohol and tobacco than they do from cyanide, so does that mean that ingesting cyanide is safe? In order for the statistic to be meaningful, one would need to compare the number of adverse incidents in relation to the number of people consuming the product -- not just the absolute numbers of adverse incidents.

I think there is some level of denial among those who use ephedrine. They are always insisting that it is nothing more than media hype, and that it is all part of some conspiracy by evil politicians and puritanical government agencies to demonize a perfectly safe product. I see the same thing on steroid boards also, with some people suggest that it is even BENEFICIAL to take steroids. The fact is, there is a moderate degree of risk associated with taking ephedrine, as there is with any modestly potent stimulant. More adverste reactions and incidents have been reported with ephedrine than all other herbal supplements combined....that should tell you something.

Now, does that mean I am suggesting that ephedrine is going to kill you? No, but it does mean that you should be aware of your health status before you decide to take ephedrine. Most people just assume they are healthy without bothering to even look into their health status. Do you know your blood pressure? Do you have hyperthyroidism? Are you at risk for heart disease? What is your cholesterol level? If you don't know the answers to these questions, then you shouldn't be taking ephedrine...period.

If however, you are healthy, and meet the guidelines listed above, then you are probably not going to experience problems if you take safe dosages, and stay hydrated. Like any drug, it has its dangers, but these dangers can be vastly reduced if you are smart and stay within the recommended safety guidelines.

Answer to Krosspyder re: Aspirin: The NSAIDS (and acetaminaphin) that were tested used the maximum recommended doses per day, and protein synthesis was totally killed. However, they did not specify what would happen with lower doses. Also, there was no indication of whether the effect was a discrete "all-or'none", or whether it was a dose-dependent continuum. I suspect the latter to be true, which would mean that you would probably get mild inhibition of protein synthesis with much smaller doses.

In terms of its effect on cardio....I don't think it would have much effect, but it could have an effect on muscle building capacity following resistance training.
wow very good post. I have no interest in the topic but the discussion got me interested

thanks guys.

I don't understand how elevating your bpm with ECA, while putting in little effort, will result in fat loss. This is not a sarcastic question. Does a high heartrate induced by ECA result in as much fat loss as exercising hard but not using ECA?

The reason cardio burns fat is because you are working your muscles, thus they consume more energy. The heart then works harder to supply the increased oxygen demands, hence the higher HR. If raising your HR is all you need to burn fat, why not just take a higher dose of ECA and skip the cardio altogether??

I know ECA works for people but I fail to understand how taking a relaxing stroll on the treadmill while ECA jacks up your HR will burn fat.

its not about that. its about not doing as much work... or not working yourself as much and that having the same energy outpout/caloric expenditure then your normal pace without the stack.

without the stack im jogging to get to the same HR im getting walking with the stack.

get it? im not saying its not dangerous or its smart to do... so dont get me wrong.


same fat loss? perhaps. less work.... definitly.

Krogers had a great deal on this stuff, buy 1 get 1 free (asprin & caffeine).

Anyway, this is my first day with 25E/200C/81A and I am a jittery mofo !!


I took hydroxy in the past with ephedra and remember it being like this.

The current versions of hydroxycut & xenadrine (without ephedrine) are a waste of money. The old stuff that had ephedrine did work. The ephedrine/caffeine combination is the only "diet aid" that has peer-reviewed studies showing it is effective.

Since herbal ephedra is illegal now, you have to make your own "diet pill"... 25 mg. tablet of Bronchaid or Primatine (ephedrine hcl or ephedrine sulphate) with a 200mg. Vivarin (caffeine) tablet. Some people add aspirin to the stack, since some of the studies included it.


I have been wanting to try the ECA stack but wasn't sure if it was safe to get the ephedra from one of the products above. I'm not sure what the other ingredients in these products are..so..my question is..is this safe as long as I take them within the time frame and dosage on the package? Also, I take ephedra free hydroxycut..sure haven't seen a big difference since taking it but..wonder if it would be okay to continue to take the ephedra free hydroxcut and the ephedra together..rather than buying the caffeine ?

The only reason I take one sometimes is for because of messed up cholesterol. Don't want any plaque buildup in my arteries.

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I think aspirin is unable to prevent or limit plaque buildup. What it can do - if I remember correctly - is to reduce the likelihood of clots forming from existing plaques.

I.e., people at risk of atherosclerosis take aspirin not to prevent or cure atherosclerosis, but to help reduce the lethal consequences of having atherosclerosis.

I have been wanting to try the ECA stack but wasn't sure if it was safe to get the ephedra from one of the products above. I'm not sure what the other ingredients in these products are..so..my question is..is this safe as long as I take them within the time frame and dosage on the package? Also, I take ephedra free hydroxycut..sure haven't seen a big difference since taking it but..wonder if it would be okay to continue to take the ephedra free hydroxcut and the ephedra together..rather than buying the caffeine ?


Based on what the package said I felt pretty confident that my dosage is ok.

Ephedra/Primatene:
They are 12.5 mg pills, I take 2 at a time, 2 - 3 times a day.

DOSAGE INFO FROM PRIMATENE SITE: (http://www.primatene.com/products/primatene_tablets.asp)
Adults and children 12 years of age and older: take 2 tablets initially, then 2 tablets every 4 hours, as needed, not to exceed 12 tablets in 24 hours.
Do not exceed recommended dosage unless directed by a doctor.
Children under 12 years of age: ask a doctor.

As far as the main ingrediant in primatene (guaifenesin), I am all for it.
Seems to have cleared up my Allergys and im not stuffed up after swimming all day like usual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


definatly do the research and choose whats right for you.

few links :


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECA_stack
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=20035&page=7
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t49343.html
http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=17099&highlight=thermogenic

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682494.html

I used the ECA stack about 5 years ago and it worked great for me. However ephedrine does something crazy with my system and I cant take more than 12mg or I go completely bonkers.

Just started using it again in bronkaid tabs..I took 25mg at about 5pm yesterday and even though I was tired around 11, every time I tried to fall asleep I seemed to wake right back up, almost like my system wasnt letting me sleep. Finally got to sleep around 1-ish. The day before I took 12mg and was fine. Anyway.. if you're like me and ephedrine doenst like you, stay with at max 12mg and dont take it after noon.

I used the ECA stack about 5 years ago and it worked great for me. However ephedrine does something crazy with my system and I cant take more than 12mg or I go completely bonkers.

Just started using it again in bronkaid tabs..I took 25mg at about 5pm yesterday and even though I was tired around 11, every time I tried to fall asleep I seemed to wake right back up, almost like my system wasnt letting me sleep. Finally got to sleep around 1-ish. The day before I took 12mg and was fine. Anyway.. if you're like me and ephedrine doenst like you, stay with at max 12mg and dont take it after noon.


You should prolly ease into it as well, my first day i had 25mg at 8am and 4pm, i was up til 2am.

Not sure how much of that was due to the caffiene but I dont think I will be taking it much past 3pm for a while.