My size of muscles are considerbly smaller than most people I work out at the gym with, but yet I am stronger than them (actually, there is no comparison with size). This is making me pretty angry and I am about to try Fizogen ON/OFF cycle. I also have a huge supplement regimen of ZMA, NO2, creatine, glutimine, multi vitamins, shakes, and other products that don't seem to add size, but only strength. I have a proper diet and routine but it still does not seem to add mass, but yet I continue to have gains. If the newly purchased Fizogen ON/OFF cycle does not work for me I was seriously considering HGH or perhaps Dianabol. I was wondering if anyone had any luck with these two or recommendations (positive and negative).

I am not worried about most of the negative side effects that come with these products, as most of them naturally occur in the family genes. As it is, I already have a reduced hair line. I have already read the side effects of them, so don't bother listing them in order for me to not continue. I want advice only and some from people who have done this would be most appreciated. Keep in mind that I am also only 18 years old.

Thanks.

My size of muscles are considerbly smaller than most people I work out at the gym with, but yet I am stronger than them (actually, there is no comparison with size). This is making me pretty angry and I am about to try Fizogen ON/OFF cycle. I also have a huge supplement regimen of ZMA, NO2, creatine, glutimine, multi vitamins, shakes, and other products that don't seem to add size, but only strength. I have a proper diet and routine but it still does not seem to add mass, but yet I continue to have gains. If the newly purchased Fizogen ON/OFF cycle does not work for me I was seriously considering HGH or perhaps Dianabol. I was wondering if anyone had any luck with these two or recommendations (positive and negative).

I am not worried about most of the negative side effects that come with these products, as most of them naturally occur in the family genes. As it is, I already have a reduced hair line. I have already read the side effects of them, so don't bother listing them in order for me to not continue. I want advice only and some from people who have done this would be most appreciated. Keep in mind that I am also only 18 years old.

Thanks.

How many calories are you consuming? Are you eating enough? What does your routine look like? You might check out the bulking sticky on this page...

Why not try another web site that goes for that sort of thing? I am sure you can find one. :tucool:

Why not try another web site that goes for that sort of thing? I am sure you can find one. :tucool:

Not to be rude or disrespectful, I'm sure with about 10,000 memebers at least one of them has tried products like this and has something to say. However, I have been asking around personally and looking for other places to discuss this.

And to answer the questions above: my job feeds me well and it's hard to count calories on the menu. I do however consume enough protine, that is for sure. As for my routine, I have made up my own so that it fits my busy scheduel. It consists of 3 days a week upper / lower / upper. I have not always followed this though. I've done other routines throughout the year also. I read and tried to follow the bulking sticky on this page but because I work so much, I can't follow it to the very detail, but it is just a guideline.

Not to be rude or disrespectful, I'm sure with about 10,000 memebers at least one of them has tried products like this and has something to say. However, I have been asking around personally and looking for other places to discuss this.

And to answer the questions above: my job feeds me well and it's hard to count calories on the menu. I do however consume enough protine, that is for sure. As for my routine, I have made up my own so that it fits my busy scheduel. It consists of 3 days a week upper / lower / upper. I have not always followed this though. I've done other routines throughout the year also. I read and tried to follow the bulking sticky on this page but because I work so much, I can't follow it to the very detail, but it is just a guideline.

At your age, you've got so much natural test that you don't really need gear. Honestly, it sounds like you don't have your diet in order. If you want to put on mass, you have to be organized about your diet. Even if you are taking roids, you need to be on a bulking diet, and you need to be primarily using heavy compound lifts if you expect to bulk up. Forget the gear man -- Up your calories, organize your workouts around compound lifts and you WILL put on mass...and if you do it natural, you'll KEEP the mass (unlike with roids).

I don't understand how my diet isn't in order, but I have strength gains without mass increase.

I don't understand how my diet isn't in order, but I have strength gains without mass increase.


You can have strength gains without having accompanying increases in muscle mass. This is usually the result of gains in neurological strength, and lessening of inhibitory processes designed to protect the tendons/ligaments/musculature. Your neurological system activates more motor units and becomes more efficient at recruiting them in order to carry out a well-practiced sequence of muscular movements.

The reason why you need to up your calories significantly when trying to put on mass is that your body needs the extra energy to put on the muscle. You need extra food (energy) to create fat, but you also need an energy surplus if you are going to put on muscle. Without that energy, your body doesn't have the resources it needs to "bulk up". Without a bulking diet, you therefore put on some strength, but don't put on any muscle to speak of. The basic info is on the sticky, but for some examples of real world results, you might take a look at John's diet archives when he was bulking.

Just to give you an idea of what a decent bulking diet can do for you, take a look at John's bulking progress in this photo gallery (http://www.johnstonefitness.com/all/front/m.php) . Compare the date 6/6/04 with his pic just 6 months later on 1/1/05. He put on some serious mass between those dates.

my 2 cents,
If you are cut and thin then I would say almost double your intake of clean food. At 18 you should be able to bulk without seeing too much fat around the mid section. Don't be afraid to gain weight, just keep lifting. Also make sure you are going up in weight when you lift. You may want to use the key word 'Hard Gainer' when you search articles, it sounds like you are a text book example.
Make sure you are drinking plenty of water too.
Also, when I was in the military I used to lift when I was in Somalia. Man I got strong but even with the MRE's I did not bulk. Turns out that 12 hours a day in 100+ temps with a 60lb pack burns a lot more calories than I thought. So I cut up real well but didn't add bulk at all.
I don't know what you do for a living be you might but using a lot more calories than the average guy.

I will log what I eat today and try my best to calculate the amount of calories.

Just a thought, you may just not have the body type that adds muscle easily... that's how my body is, and it's how a lot of other people's bodies are. Unfortunately, it's just something you have to deal with and learn to work within your body's parameters.

I'm curious to see your diet as well. You might also want to post your workout routine because a lot of people are very knowledgeable on how to build mass as opposed to sheer strength.

Now, I've responded nicely, but you should know that if you went to any board with with a steroid population and said, "Hey, I'm 18 and I want to try Dianabol," you would be publicly beaten. I'm not saying that to be funny, it's the honest truth. Steroids will ruin your 18 year old body in much deeper ways than a receding hair line.

Explore natural bodybuilding until your in you're early twenties. If you are still interested, then look into it.

how old are u? in HS i used to be like that i was stronger than most of the meat heads but had zero size. what changed it for me was going to heavier weight 7reps till faliure and just getting older. also get ur testostrone levels checked. good luck.

Mon:
Bench Press 4x8
Fly 4x8
Shoulder Raise 4x8
Incline Situps 3x25
Leg Raise 3x10

Wed:
Squat 4x8
Seated Calf Raise 4x8
Shrug 4x8

Fri:
Reverse Curl 4x8
Incline Curl 4x8
Lying Tricep Extension 4x8
Fly 4x8
Incline Situps 3x25
Leg Raise 3x10

About 30 to 90 seconds inbetween each set. I try to keep it at that throughout the week but sometimes I skip out on some (like abs) to go to the pool.

My Fizogen ON just arrived and I am trying it out also. As for my diet, the day isn't over yet. I will post that around the time I go to bed.

Chek out this (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=F4F298682C2BCC9A8FDCBEDE9B C093B0.hydra?id=651322) link. It is an article from top strength coach Chad Waterbury. It details different parameters for different goals. 1. Hypertrophy and strength increases, 2. fat loss, and 3. hypertrophy without an emphasis on strength. See how your program stacks up to either of the hypertrophy parameters. It is possible to lift in a way that promotes strength gains without much hypertrophy. And if your parameters are in line, consider your diet. There will be no muscle growth on the best program if calories and protein, PWO nutrition, and nutrient timing aren't appropriate. Enough calories and protein being most key.

exactly what i was thinking jsbrook

Lets see...
2 large bowls of Rice Crispies
2 tuna sandwiches
1 12" Subway sub
1 Bacon Cheeseburger
8-10 6oz coffee with double milk
1 20 oz Coke
2 shakes

I don't know what that amounts to in calories/protein and I'm too tired at the moment to figure it out. I'm sure it's above 2000 though.

Chek out this (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=F4F298682C2BCC9A8FDCBEDE9B C093B0.hydra?id=651322) link. It is an article from top strength coach Chad Waterbury. It details different parameters for different goals. 1. Hypertrophy and strength increases, 2. fat loss, and 3. hypertrophy without an emphasis on strength. See how your program stacks up to either of the hypertrophy parameters. It is possible to lift in a way that promotes strength gains without much hypertrophy. And if your parameters are in line, consider your diet. There will be no muscle growth on the best program if calories and protein, PWO nutrition, and nutrient timing aren't appropriate. Enough calories and protein being most key.


i dont mean to distract from the original topic here but i have to aske something.


i read some of the info on that link and im not clear on it. there is a lot of jargon use and i consider myself not versed in such jargon.


im trying to figure out what its saying in laymen terms if i wanted to concentrate on size gains... muscle gains... hypotrophy i guess.

according to this what do i have to do conceptually and or spcificallly for size gains? is MAX-OT not good enough for size gains. i mean as it is right now i cant reall get the size i want because im not on a bluking diet ... im still on cutting... but im sure this cant hurt only help.

so please if you can break this down for me as it relates to size gains id appreciate it.

i dont mean to distract from the original topic here but i have to aske something.


i read some of the info on that link and im not clear on it. there is a lot of jargon use and i consider myself not versed in such jargon.


im trying to figure out what its saying in laymen terms if i wanted to concentrate on size gains... muscle gains... hypotrophy i guess.

according to this what do i have to do conceptually and or spcificallly for size gains? is MAX-OT not good enough for size gains. i mean as it is right now i cant reall get the size i want because im not on a bluking diet ... im still on cutting... but im sure this cant hurt only help.

so please if you can break this down for me as it relates to size gains id appreciate it.

I think Max -Ot is a good program for gaining, i wouldn't recommend a 5 day split.
On a cutting diet it will at least help keep your current muscle mass.
Chad waterbury has a few interesting things to say but you wont catch me doing his routine.

i dont mean to distract from the original topic here but i have to aske something.


i read some of the info on that link and im not clear on it. there is a lot of jargon use and i consider myself not versed in such jargon.


im trying to figure out what its saying in laymen terms if i wanted to concentrate on size gains... muscle gains... hypotrophy i guess.

according to this what do i have to do conceptually and or spcificallly for size gains? is MAX-OT not good enough for size gains. i mean as it is right now i cant reall get the size i want because im not on a bluking diet ... im still on cutting... but im sure this cant hurt only help.

so please if you can break this down for me as it relates to size gains id appreciate it.

I think MAX-OT can be a good program for size gains. I'm not sure how closely it fits into Chad's parameters. Chad himself will tell you that hypertrophy is certainly possible without these parameters. Just in his experience with many trainees over the years, these have given the best results. I personally like his programs and think they are very effective for size gains. Not the only way. He basically is saying that a certain number of total reps per muscle at a given load (weight) is optimal for different goals. He also gives guidelines for rest between sets and number of workouts per week. The number of reps per set can vary-he gives different suggestions. You want to be near failure on each set. And the total number of reps with the prescribed amount of weight fits into his parameters. Once you choose to bulk, I'm sure you could make some good gains with MAX-OT if your diet is appropriate.

I think Max -Ot is a good program for gaining, i wouldn't recommend a 5 day split.
On a cutting diet it will at least help keep your current muscle mass.
Chad waterbury has a few interesting things to say but you wont catch me doing his routine.

Why not? I had very good gains. Do you feel the volume is too high? You don't respond well to it?

Lets see...
2 large bowls of Rice Crispies
2 tuna sandwiches
1 12" Subway sub
1 Bacon Cheeseburger
8-10 6oz coffee with double milk
1 20 oz Coke
2 shakes

I don't know what that amounts to in calories/protein and I'm too tired at the moment to figure it out. I'm sure it's above 2000 though.

That's really quite a lousy diet. I'm not surprised you're not seeing mass gains. The food is not clean, and I doubt it's enough calories. Although I'm not sure of your weight. You're going to need to figure out how many calories your eating. For cutting and bulking I keep a food log while for maintenance I don't need to. I recommend reading through the Nutrition Forum and carefully reading through the Bulking Guide. This will help you figure out better food choices and calories. Checking out John Berardi's Massive Eating would also be a very good idea. Do a google search. Take care of the diet, and you'll be on your way. Good luck!

2000 calories for someone your age is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ADD MASS.

When I was your age I was stuck at 180 lbs for an extended period. I too was strong but was not adding any size.

I read an article about eating big and decided to give it a try (I think it was by Bill Starr). I started eating as much as I could at every meal after breakfast and then some. I was literally stuffing myself as much as possible at each meal and then drinking a lot of milk prior to bed. I ate a lot of fast food and generally had a crap diet. That said, the total calories did the trick. I was able to reasonably quickly get up to 220 lbs (completely natural) following this plan and training hard.

Here is an article I wrote on the subject a while back:

http://www.atlargenutrition.com/gainingmass.php

Give it a read and a try and you will soon be progressing and not worrying about tissue building drugs.

2000 calories for someone your age is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ADD MASS.

When I was your age I was stuck at 180 lbs for an extended period. I too was strong but was not adding any size.

I read an article about eating big and decided to give it a try (I think it was by Bill Starr). I started eating as much as I could at every meal after breakfast and then some. I was literally stuffing myself as much as possible at each meal and then drinking a lot of milk prior to bed. I ate a lot of fast food and generally had a crap diet. That said, the total calories did the trick. I was able to reasonably quickly get up to 220 lbs (completely natural) following this plan and training hard.

Here is an article I wrote on the subject a while back:

http://www.atlargenutrition.com/gainingmass.php

Give it a read and a try and you will soon be progressing and not worrying about tissue building drugs.

Good article Chris,
I often thought younger guys should eat a lot more, as i remember when i was younger i could eat as much as i liked (junk food included) and not put on any fat.
This changes as you get older though, the waistline starts to expand so a better controlled diet is required.

Thank you Glenn and I agree.

I think some young men just have such fast metabolisms that high fat foods are almost necessary in order to ingest a sufficient quantity of calories.

Of course, in order to build good habits these foods should still be as healthy as possible (peanut butter, whole milk etc.).

Thanks glenn, I'll try that out for the next few months. This post wasn't just about steriods though, I also asked opinions on HGH.

2000 calories for someone your age is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT IS REQUIRED TO ADD MASS.

When I was your age I was stuck at 180 lbs for an extended period. I too was strong but was not adding any size.

I read an article about eating big and decided to give it a try (I think it was by Bill Starr). I started eating as much as I could at every meal after breakfast and then some. I was literally stuffing myself as much as possible at each meal and then drinking a lot of milk prior to bed. I ate a lot of fast food and generally had a crap diet. That said, the total calories did the trick. I was able to reasonably quickly get up to 220 lbs (completely natural) following this plan and training hard.

Here is an article I wrote on the subject a while back:

http://www.atlargenutrition.com/gainingmass.php

Give it a read and a try and you will soon be progressing and not worrying about tissue building drugs.

Interesting article. I do wonder though, why you suggest training to failure in the article, whereas here, you suggest not training to failure. Is this because you expect recovery times to be much faster when caloric intake is very high?

Thanks glenn, I'll try that out for the next few months. This post wasn't just about steriods though, I also asked opinions on HGH.

I dont know if anyone on this site could help you there, i personally know very little of hgh, if your not planning on competing i would steer clear of all that stuff and just make natural gains.
Steroids are overrated and not everyone responds aswell as you might think. I have'nt tried them myself but quite a few of my friends at the gym do, looking at the gains made ( or lack of )i reckon they are getting ripped off.

I am not worried about most of the negative side effects that come with these products, as most of them naturally occur in the family genes. As it is, I already have a reduced hair line. I have already read the side effects of them, so don't bother listing them in order for me to not continue. I want advice only and some from people who have done this would be most appreciated. Keep in mind that I am also only 18 years old.

Thanks.

The negative side effects of anabolic steroids and GH extend far beyond the associations it has on the individuals physical self. I have too many horror stories relating to guys and gals who decided to cross the line.

At 18 years of age you have yet to tap into your natural potential. Your diet is terrible. Sorry to be so blunt. Expect no mass gains should you continue eating that way. You need a functional eating plan that has you eating 6 times a day loaded with plenty of clean proteins, carbs, and healthy fats. Learn and read up all that you can on nutrition.Your training program must emphasize the Big 3 - Squats, Deadlifts, and Benches or heavy inclines. Your numbers on these lifts must go up on a gradual and progressive basis for you to gain a foundation of muscle mass. It is going to be the quality and quantity of your nutrition which will ensure that your numbers keep moving up.

If you're looking for some "assistance", be prepared for a very bumpy ride. Bodybuilding and fitness will no longer be a joyful and rewarding experience, but a very black area which will result in stresses much beyond what I can describe.

Just my 2 cents.

Interesting article. I do wonder though, why you suggest training to failure in the article, whereas here, you suggest not training to failure. Is this because you expect recovery times to be much faster when caloric intake is very high?


To be frank it is due to an evolution in my own thoughts on the matter. If you look at the publication date you will note it was almost 2 years ago.

In fact, that article was written just as my thoughts on the subject were beginning to change.

If you read all of my posts here I am sure I have stated that I was a strong advocate of HIT style training for nearly 15 years.

It took me 15 years I hope it will not take others on this site nearly that long :D .

I'm not an expert by any means but your diet looks to be pretty lousy.