I've lost 5 pounds since Monday. Part of the recent re-gaining of weight was due to getting carried away with the idea of a 'cheat meal'. But some of it wasn't. I'm still reading through Venuto's excellent BFFM material but I just read where he explained the concept of thermic values of different types of foods. Bottom line, even though a Myoplex replacement meal has protein and carbs, that doesn't mean it's going to keep your metabolism up like a lean protein meat or a complex carb.

So could someone explain to me why all these books I have (4 or 5 total) from Bill Phillips tell me that it's perfectly OK to buy and use 2 or 3 of his Body For Life-approved supplements every day in *place* of meals?

Yeah, that's why I'm pissed..... :mad:

Probably because he used to own EAS and part of the whole Body for Life kickoff was intended to up the sales?

Probably because he used to own EAS and part of the whole Body for Life kickoff was intended to up the sales?


that and just because Venuto said so doesn't mean it's true... and the same could be said for Phillips... yes, whole food is generally better, but no, supplements will not hurt you, as long as you stay with in your macro goals

Maybe not the answer you're looking for but don't miss the forest for the trees. At this point I think stressing over an MRP vs. a "real food" is not helpful at all.

I cannot imagine that the metabolic influence of an MRP vs. a similarly macronutrient-ratioed "real" meal is going to be very significant at all.

I think I came across a little too sharply up there. What I mean is that Bill Phillips wrote the book, and in the book, he endorses a product he owns ... so take endorsements with a grain of salt. I don't see a problem with replacing a meal with a bar or drink every now and again, but doing it for two or three meals could be a bigger problem.

As far as the Body-for-Life and EAS bars, I carry one around in my purse and use it when I can't make it to a meal.

I dont think theres anything wrong with using replacement meals when you have to. Like if you cant make your time frame to eat real food , have a protein bar. Best thing to do .... no , but better than missing a meal. Try to use a whey protein shake with some flaxseed oil in it.....good stuff. Quick and easy , just get your macros rite.

I think I came across a little too sharply up there. What I mean is that Bill Phillips wrote the book, and in the book, he endorses a product he owns ... so take endorsements with a grain of salt. I don't see a problem with replacing a meal with a bar or drink every now and again, but doing it for two or three meals could be a bigger problem.

As far as the Body-for-Life and EAS bars, I carry one around in my purse and use it when I can't make it to a meal.
No, I don't think you came across too sharp at all! That was sort of my point. I somehow missed the fact that he used to own EAS. But it's not a *big* problem except for the fact that liquid protein/carbs do not have the same thermic effect, i.e., they don't keep up the metabolism like solid foods. Now that's according to Venuto, but it makes sense to me. I certainly don't have any problem keeping an extra packet with me for those occasions where it's not convenient to pull out a chicken breast, though. Just wish I'd known of the possibility that my metabolism would dip. And believe me, I need all the fat-burning metabolism I can get!

Maybe not the answer you're looking for but don't miss the forest for the trees. At this point I think stressing over an MRP vs. a "real food" is not helpful at all.

I cannot imagine that the metabolic influence of an MRP vs. a similarly macronutrient-ratioed "real" meal is going to be very significant at all.
Even when you look at 2-3 meals of lean protein like chicken breast vs. 3 powdered drink mixes in a one-day period over an extended period? When we first started BFL we were doing at least 2 drink mixes every day, religiously. I'm not saying that we haven't seen many positive things from BFL, just wondering how many calories we didn't burn off due to mediocre metabolisms....

No, I don't think you came across too sharp at all! That was sort of my point. I somehow missed the fact that he used to own EAS. But it's not a *big* problem except for the fact that liquid protein/carbs do not have the same thermic effect, i.e., they don't keep up the metabolism like solid foods. Now that's according to Venuto, but it makes sense to me. I certainly don't have any problem keeping an extra packet with me for those occasions where it's not convenient to pull out a chicken breast, though. Just wish I'd known of the possibility that my metabolism would dip. And believe me, I need all the fat-burning metabolism I can get!

I hear you - I'm glad I started reading up in these forums on nutrition, etc, before I started the program, because I would have been eating/drinking them twice a day otherwise, and that's not what I need. I was doing that at first, and then I started really looking at the package and thinking ... what is really in this? Do I need this much sugar? Wouldn't a real meal be better? And of course it is.

I take it you're happier with the BFFM book? I was thinking about purchasing it.

Even when you look at 2-3 meals of lean protein like chicken breast vs. 3 powdered drink mixes in a one-day period over an extended period? When we first started BFL we were doing at least 2 drink mixes every day, religiously. I'm not saying that we haven't seen many positive things from BFL, just wondering how many calories we didn't burn off due to mediocre metabolisms....

I understand what your saying , but still , I did that and I leaned out rather well. Have your solids( for 3 meals ) and have your shakes ( pre/post and another somewhere in the day ) they both have there place. Best of both worlds :tu:

Maybe look into SGX , it worked for me :gl:

Even when you look at 2-3 meals of lean protein like chicken breast vs. 3 powdered drink mixes in a one-day period over an extended period? When we first started BFL we were doing at least 2 drink mixes every day, religiously. I'm not saying that we haven't seen many positive things from BFL, just wondering how many calories we didn't burn off due to mediocre metabolisms....I am basing this on conjecture and nothing I've really read, but I just _feel_ that it doesn't make much of a difference. I don't believe the metabolism is quite as elastic as some would have us believe. For instance, 6 meals a day are better than 3, but are they really that much better? If the difference is 10%, then yeah it's worth it, but is a 6 meal-day metabolism burning 50% more than a 3-day? Of course it's not and I really can't imagine a solid vs. liquid diet (if macros are the same) would have all that much of an impact.

So really what I'm saying is I don't think metabolisms are as finnicky as a lot of people believe they are.

I am basing this on conjecture and nothing I've really read, but I just _feel_ that it doesn't make much of a difference. I don't believe the metabolism is quite as elastic as some would have us believe. For instance, 6 meals a day are better than 3, but are they really that much better? If the difference is 10%, then yeah it's worth it, but is a 6 meal-day metabolism burning 50% more than a 3-day? Of course it's not and I really can't imagine a solid vs. liquid diet (if macros are the same) would have all that much of an impact.

So really what I'm saying is I don't think metabolisms are as finnicky as a lot of people believe they are.
Agreed , its all about the macros. Cant rule out the skakes for being an easy/quick/tasty fast absorbing meal though , especially pre/post workout.

Ah well to each there own , find a meal plan ya like , stick with it and you will be fine. :eat:

First, I must say that I am an avid BFFM trainee and Tom Venuto has changed and saved my life, so I am a bit partial.

Now that this is out of the way...

...although I cannot provide a link, from memory I am quite sure that Tom Venuto has written in at least one place that shakes are ok as well.

He also never claims that there is only one way. Possibly one of his most important teachings is:

- Try stuff.

- Assess feedback (results).

- If it works FOR YOU, keep doing it.

- If it does not work for you or stops working for you, change it.

Funnily enough, as I post about this, I had my first two doses of protein powder today, my first ever after eight or so months of training because I was only getting "real food" before.

I plan to use it in the morning in my oatmeal because I really have a problem with eating meat or fish at breakfast and don't have time to cook an egg white omelette then.

I will also have a protein shake after each weight workout (3/week). It is claimed that it is good after a workout to give the muscles the proteins they need QUICKLY.

If it works for me, I'll keep doing this. If not, back to PWO tuna...

I must say that today I felt fantastic. First time I did 35 pushups in one set (for me that's a lot), followed by another two sets of 25. And I felt strong all through the workout (I'm not very strong, but I mean compared to previous workouts).

I can't be sure yet that it's the protein powder I got in the morning, but who knows...

As for Bill Philips, I did not realise he might have a vested interest. BFL is so famous that I have just ordered the book (another coincidence, Amazon despatched it today). I thought that a program that has helped so many has to be based on interesting stuff.

However, I do not expect it to be "better" than BFFM. I am just always after new angles and fresh inspiration.

Do what works for YOU.

Vincent.

random tidbit - macros are important, but its not ALL about the macros. Swole really tries to impress that idea, and not thats its wrong, just its not entirely true.

#1 rule that will not and can not ever be disputed: Calories in vs. Calories out
#2 rule (imo): macro timing. Correct carbs fat and protein when your body needs them. along with that is the total macro % over the course of the day.
finally i guess i personally toss in the idea of macros at a meal.

Like any marketer, swole needed a unique vantage point to press his programs. And it works. Obviously.

First, I must say that I am an avid BFFM trainee and Tom Venuto has changed and saved my life, so I am a bit partial.

Now that this is out of the way...

...although I cannot provide a link, from memory I am quite sure that Tom Venuto has written in at least one place that shakes are ok as well.


Venuto says that MRP's are better than skipping a meal and "going into the danger zone" but also says "Supplements will give you the calories and nutrients you need, but they won't provide the metabolic boost that solid food does. Whole food is what really stimulates the metabolism" (BFFM, pp. 135-136)

That's all I'm sayin' :D