I'm supplement savvy so I figured I could make the John Berardi formulated Biotest "Surge" for cheaper than what they sell it for.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459244
This is how surge breaks down:
http://www.t-nation.com/img/prod_icons/btsurge_suppFacts.gif

Biotest Surge Post-Workout Recovery Drink
Buy 3:
$21.00*3 = $63.00 + $7.50 S&H = $70.50
$70.50 / 30 (10 servings per bucket) = $2.35 per serving

Buy 6:
$21.00*6 = $126.00 + $7.50 S&H = $133.5
$133.5 / 60 (10 servings per bucket) = $2.23 per serving

I tried to itemize each ingredient and buy in bulk while trying to approximate the amounts of each ingredient and break it down into cost per serving
In the end I get:
24g hydrosylated whey protein
~25g maltodextrin
~25g dextrose
3g phenylalanine
5g glutamine
2.5g L-Leucine
1.25g L-Isoleucine
1.25g L-Valine
I could add some salt for sodium

I'd say this is pretty close to Surge and this is how I did it:

http://www.allthewhey.com/products/wph.asp
20% Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate (Real hydrolyzed is very bitter)
2 lbs for $17.99 gives 32 servings
Buy two for $36 + $6 S&H = $42
$42 / 64 servings = $0.656

http://www.health-marketplace.com/L-Phenylalanine.htm
100 gm powdered Phenylalanine
$12.95 + estimated $6 S&H = $19 / 33servings = $0.58 per serving

http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/glut2.html
Iron-Tek Essential Glutamine Powder (500g)
$20.97 * 0.85 (15% off using coupon code “qc”) + $0.00 S&H = $17.85
$17.85 / 100servings = ~$0.18

http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/branchedpowder.html
Branched Chain Amino Acid Powder, Now Foods Sports, 12 oz. (340 g)
Serving Size: 1 Heaping Teaspoon (5.0 g) Servings Per Container: 68
L-Leucine 2.5 g (2,500 mg)
L-Isoleucine 1.25 g (1,250 mg)
L-Valine 1.25 g (1,250 mg)
$25.19 * 0.85 85 (15% off using coupon code “qc”) + $0.00 S&H / 68servings = ~$0.32 per serving


http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/carbogain.html
Serving Size 1/2 cup (50 g)
Servings per container: 63
Calories 190
Total Carbohydrate 47 g
Sugars 2 g
Carbo Powder 50 g
21.99 * 0.85 / 126servings (~25grams per serving) = ~$0.15

http://www.kentnutrition.com/
http://kentnutrition.ihoststudio.com/dexfac.html
10lbs of Dextrose
Price: $ 11.49 + $6.00 flat rate ground shipping on one box per order = $17.50
$17.50 / 181servings (4532g / 25g) = ~0.10 per serving

Add them up:
$0.66 for Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate
~0.10 per serving for dextrose
~$0.15 for maltodextrin
~0.32 for BCAA’s
~$0.18 for glutamine
$0.58 per serving for phenylalanine

Homemade SURGE
Total = $1.99 per serving
That's after spending about $140 for startup.

Frankly, I'm amazed!

I think that the only thing you might of missed was that if you spend $150, then the shipping is free. This stuff is GREAT!

Someone do me a favor and do a cost comparison on my product called Opticen and then you will be amazed!

I like Surge too. But what you are failing to consider is that All The Whey already has a lot of these BCAAs and other things that you had factored in separately in the whey powder. I don't know if the amounts are the same as Surge but neither do you necessarily need them in those amounts.

Someone do me a favor and do a cost comparison on my product called Opticen and then you will be amazed!

Looks good to me. I just wouldn't use it as a PWO drink. The protein/carbs ratio is not optimal for that.

Looks good to me. I just wouldn't use it as a PWO drink. The protein/carbs ratio is not optimal for that.

Why not? What is "optimal"?
Looks good to me. I use a combo of Beverly's Mass Maker and Muscle Provider which yields approximately 51gr of protein and 23gr of carbs. Works great for either a hardenning or gaining phase.

Someone do me a favor and do a cost comparison on my product called Opticen and then you will be amazed!

There is a lot of science in surge.

Your product, OPTICEN, does not use hydrolyzed whey (more expensive than regular whey).
Your product does not have a 1:1 mix of maltodextrin and dextrose.
Your product does not have a 2:1 mix of protein to carbs.
Your product does not have added BCAA's.
Your product does not have added amino acids such as glutamine and phenylalanine.
Your product DOES have a bunch of gums, vitamins, and a small amount of fat....all of which will slow gastric emptying which blunts insulin response.

I agree with others, this is no good as a post workout drink.
If I wanted to make my own rudimentary drink, I would buy malto, dex, and whey protein and mix them in the right ratios. Those ingredients are the cheapest stuff on the planet.
Add a cheap multivitamin and I could literally blow your price away by itemizing and ordering the ingredients separately..

Why not? What is "optimal"?
Looks good to me. I use a combo of Beverly's Mass Maker and Muscle Provider which yields approximately 51gr of protein and 23gr of carbs. Works great for either a hardenning or gaining phase.

Surge is optimal!
John Berardi Ph.D. formulated the product for Biotest. Yeah, he's a doctor, and nutrition is his forte!

I think that the only thing you might of missed was that if you spend $150, then the shipping is free. This stuff is GREAT!


Ahh, you're a genius.
So order 7 buckets of Surge and it drops it down to $2.10 per serving.

Your product does not have a 1:1 mix of maltodextrin and dextrose.

Did they change the formula? I believe that the containers I have at home list 40'something grams of d-glucose.

You could give Beverly's Mass Maker (http://www.dpsnutrition.net/product_information.asp?number=BV010&back=yes&dept=1425&last=1425) a look as well. Which works equally as well as a post w/o or an mrp.

Surge is optimal!
John Berardi Ph.D. formulated the product for Biotest. Yeah, he's a doctor, and nutrition is his forte!

Optimal for whom? Berardi does not impress me as much as Dr Eric Serrano. I've tried Surge and have gotten better results with a couple other companies, including homemade PWO solutions.

A PWO drink is dependant on what you are currently attempting to accomplish through your training and nutrition cycle. There should not be a BE-ALL-ONE-ALL formula taken everytime, otherwise achieving certain goals will be compromised.

Did they change the formula? I believe that the containers I have at home list 40'something grams of d-glucose.

You could give Beverly's Mass Maker (http://www.dpsnutrition.net/product_information.asp?number=BV010&back=yes&dept=1425&last=1425) a look as well. Which works equally as well as a post w/o or an mrp.

I was talking about Opticen. They only have maltodextrin.

As for Surge...it is my educated guess that they have an approximate 1:1 ratio of dex to malto.
Reason being:
Ingredients are listed by weight in order from greatest to least.
First 3 Surge Ingredients: d-glucose, whey protein hydrosylate, maltodextrin
There is about 20g of whey hydrosylate, so there must be more than 20g of d-glucose. Studies show that maltodextrin is better than dex at glycogen replenishment, but that a combination of the two is best. If you had to choose one, malto would be better than dex from a purely scientific standpoint. Having more dex than malto might be better from a taste standpoint. So if they have 29g dex and 20g malto, that would account for the macros almost perfectly. Its not a perfect 1:1, but I think its close enough.....and I would have no problem making my own drink with a 1:1 ratio.

There should not be a BE-ALL-ONE-ALL formula taken everytime, otherwise achieving certain goals will be compromised.

Well, my goal has always been to gain more muscle mass and reduce my bodyfat levels.
That is exactly why surge was designed.

According to the book I have called "Nutrient Timing," one formula for PWO recovery is indicated for both fat loss an muscle gain.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/reviews/nutrient_timing.htm
Link to Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1591201411/qid=1116526092/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-1042259-9481754?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
Of course you need to adjust the amounts taken to your weight.

Optimal for whom? Berardi does not impress me as much as Dr Eric Serrano. I've tried Surge and have gotten better results with a couple other companies, including homemade PWO solutions.

Thats great and I don't doubt you....but I realize that PWO drinks are just one piece of the puzzle and will not likely make or break your program. Its just an extra edge, a tool in the toolbox.

Optimal for whom? Berardi does not impress me as much as Dr Eric Serrano. I've tried Surge and have gotten better results with a couple other companies, including homemade PWO solutions.

A PWO drink is dependant on what you are currently attempting to accomplish through your training and nutrition cycle. There should not be a BE-ALL-ONE-ALL formula taken everytime, otherwise achieving certain goals will be compromised.

You are right. There is no BE-ALL-ONE-ALL. However, I believe that a greater amount of carbs to protein post-workout is optimal for everyone regardless of whether they're cutting or bulking. Different people will have different results depending on their nutrition outside of post-workout. But I think a 2:1 ratio to 3:1 ratio of fast-acting carbs to protein is optimal post-workout for recovery and restocking glycogen. Diet in terms of carbs and otherwise should be tailored according to goals around this. I personally use my own blend of malto/dex/whey. I use malto and dex in equal amounts and the combination is either twice as much (cutting) as whey or three times as much (bulking) as whey. People can and do get great results with other post-workout nutrition. But based on both personal experience and studies, I think that this is optimal.

You are right. There is no BE-ALL-ONE-ALL. However, I believe that a greater amount of carbs to protein post-workout is optimal for everyone regardless of whether they're cutting or bulking. Different people will have different results depending on their nutrition outside of post-workout. But I think a 2:1 ratio to 3:1 ratio of fast-acting carbs to protein is optimal post-workout for recovery and restocking glycogen. Diet in terms of carbs and otherwise should be tailored according to goals around this. I personally use my own blend of malto/dex/whey. I use malto and dex in equal amounts and the combination is either twice as much (cutting) as whey or three times as much (bulking) as whey. People can and do get great results with other post-workout nutrition. But based on both personal experience and studies, I think that this is optimal.

Another point to consider is the time of the day a person trains. I train at 5:00AM. 2 hours after I wake up. Therefore I have the entire day to replenish my glycogen stores. Some people (myself included) like a steadier flow of insulin as opposed to a massive spike with dextrose, so I like a whey hydro/iso combo with a minimum of carbs. The hydrolized gives a more manageable spike, and during my 3 hour post workout window for massive nutrient absorption, I will have a meal with complex carbs. Again, the amount of carbs is dependant on whether I am in a gaining phase, cutting, or extreme pre-contest dieting which in the latter's case I will include extra bcaa's and glutamine.

Another point to consider is the time of the day a person trains. I train at 5:00AM. 2 hours after I wake up. Therefore I have the entire day to replenish my glycogen stores. Some people (myself included) like a steadier flow of insulin as opposed to a massive spike with dextrose, so I like a whey hydro/iso combo with a minimum of carbs. The hydrolized gives a more manageable spike, and during my 3 hour post workout window for massive nutrient absorption, I will have a meal with complex carbs. Again, the amount of carbs is dependant on whether I am in a gaining phase, cutting, or extreme pre-contest dieting which in the latter's case I will include extra bcaa's and glutamine.

OK, glycogen aside, you're still not considering muscle protein balance.

Typically a trainee has to wait 24 hours for a positive muscle protein balance, but this means you're just barely squeeking by neutral....that scary place where you don't have any breakdown or muscle growth.

By consuming the right nutrients post workout you can shift to a positive muscle protein balance within 1 hour after a workout. Did you get that? You can recover within 1 hour! If you were to wait for 3 hours after exercise, and consume the same nutrients, your net protein balance would still actually be negative by about %100........uhh, thats not nearly as good.

Although the post workout phase is when you have the highest rate of muscle growth, the majority of your gains will be in an 18-20 hour period after that phase. Nonetheless, I still think that the importance and formula combinations of post-workout nutrition has never been overstated.

OK, glycogen aside, you're still not considering muscle protein balance.

Typically a trainee has to wait 24 hours for a positive muscle protein balance, but this means you're just barely squeeking by neutral....that scary place where you don't have any breakdown or muscle growth.

By consuming the right nutrients post workout you can shift to a positive muscle protein balance within 1 hour after a workout. Did you get that? You can recover within 1 hour! If you were to wait for 3 hours after exercise, and consume the same nutrients, your net protein balance would still actually be negative by about %100........uhh, thats not nearly as good.

Although the post workout phase is when you have the highest rate of muscle growth, the majority of your gains will be in an 18-20 hour period after that phase. Nonetheless, I still think that the importance and formula combinations of post-workout nutrition has never been overstated.

I understand your point. 50-60gr of protein immediately post workout is just fine. This will kick start the recovery process nicely. What I neglected to mention was what I am consuming pre, during and post workout also. This has a much better overall effect on protein synthesis and recovery. By ingesting bcaa's pre and during the workout itself, no massive carb intake is necessary PWO. You'll grow sufficient muscle without the crap shoot of potential fat gain. Taking additional EAA's/creatine/glutamine and particularly, a good anti-oxidant formula will do wonders after heavy training. In fact this formula was so effective, that there was a time, roughly 2-3 years, where I consumed no PWO drink at all, instead opting for a whole food meal. I achieved some fantastic off-season gains using this method.

There is a lot of science in surge.

Your product, OPTICEN, does not use hydrolyzed whey (more expensive than regular whey).
Your product does not have a 1:1 mix of maltodextrin and dextrose.
Your product does not have a 2:1 mix of protein to carbs.
Your product does not have added BCAA's.
Your product does not have added amino acids such as glutamine and phenylalanine.
Your product DOES have a bunch of gums, vitamins, and a small amount of fat....all of which will slow gastric emptying which blunts insulin response.

I agree with others, this is no good as a post workout drink.
If I wanted to make my own rudimentary drink, I would buy malto, dex, and whey protein and mix them in the right ratios. Those ingredients are the cheapest stuff on the planet.
Add a cheap multivitamin and I could literally blow your price away by itemizing and ordering the ingredients separately..


:rolleyes:

Ok, let's speak about reality now.

My product contains 52g of protein and 25g of carbs per 90g serving. That is pretty darn close to 2:1 :tu: .

My product contains whey, casein, and egg proteins not just whey (which is inferior to a blend). My product will result in a greater net retention of protein than any whey-only product and I can show you studies by Yves Boirie to backup what I have to say. His opinions on protein would certainly held in higher regard than Mr. Berardi's due to the fact he focuses on protein research.

My product does contain about 3 grams of free glutamine per serving. How many does Surge contain?

My product has more than twice the protein of Surge in roughly the same serving size.

The idea that one needs to load on carbs after a workout with weights is quite misleading. Exactly how depleted do you really think one's glycogen supplies will be after a 30 minute to 1 hour workout with weights? What people like you don't realize is that some of the information you are force-fed by supplement companies might just be a bit misleading.

Do you think blood glucose levels are zero after a workout with weights? Do people go into a coma?

How about the idea of whey being a good post-workout protein source? The studies used to reference this are based upon people consuming solely whey on AN EMPTY STOMACH UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS.

When we consume a meal with fat and protein (as nearly all meals have) it can take up to 4 hours for the food to clear the stomach. Once it reaches the duodenum more time passes. Blood borne amino acid and glucose levels remain elevated for several hours (upwards of 6) after a NORMAL meal in the REAL WORLD. What this means is that unless you train with weights first thing in the moring prior to eating anything you are training with a rich pool of amino acids and glucose in your blood. Hence the whole idea of post-workout nutrition becomes somewhat irrelevant!

Heck, I didn't even mention the continual breakdown of the epithelial tissue which lines the digestive tract which provides amino acids for the blood stream.

What is MOST important with respect to training with weights is your total consumption of nutrients throughout the day, not when you consume them (assuming you don't eat everything in one meal :D ).

My product will provide the nutrition people need to get the most out of the workouts.

I am not saying Surge is a poor product, I am sure it is not, but for the money you would be better suited to give my product a go.

:rolleyes:

Ok, let's speak about reality now.

My product contains 52g of protein and 25g of carbs per 90g serving. That is pretty darn close to 2:1 :tu: . .

We were talking about at least a 2:1 carbs to protein ratio. Not a protein:carbs ratio.

: My product contains whey, casein, and egg proteins not just whey (which is inferior to a blend). My product will result in a greater net retention of protein than any whey-only product and I can show you studies by Yves Boirie to backup what I have to say. His opinions on protein would certainly held in higher regard than Mr. Berardi's due to the fact he focuses on protein research.

My product does contain about 3 grams of free glutamine per serving. How many does Surge contain?

My product has more than twice the protein of Surge in roughly the same serving size. .

I don't believe that slower-acting proteins are optimal immediately post-workout. Every other time of the day, yes. I do believe that the protein should be as fast absorbing as possible with a higher amount of carbs to funnel it to the muscles. Studies have shown that glycogen resynthesis and concentrations in the muscles is optimal with a malto/dex/whey blend with a higher amount of carbs than protein. I'm puzzled as to why the protein retention at that particular time is important. That provided by whey should be plenty. This is because you should be getting plenty of protein thorughout the day starting with a complex carbs/protein meal 45 minutes to and hour after a PWO shake. I don't know how much glutamine Surge has. I haven't bothered to look. I'm not am advocating for Surge. What I DO advocate is a malto/dex/whey blend (preferably hydrolyzed whey) with at least a 2:1 carbs/protein ratio. It may or may not be Surge. I am not currently using Surge.

:The idea that one needs to load on carbs after a workout with weights is quite misleading. Exactly how depleted do you really think one's glycogen supplies will be after a 30 minute to 1 hour workout with weights? What people like you don't realize is that some of the information you are force-fed by supplement companies might just be a bit misleading.

Do you think blood glucose levels are zero after a workout with weights? Do people go into a coma?

How about the idea of whey being a good post-workout protein source? The studies used to reference this are based upon people consuming solely whey on AN EMPTY STOMACH UNDER CONTROLLED CONDITIONS. .

Why must one be extremely depleted for a higher carb to protein ratio to still be optimal for glycogen resynthesis and muscle recovery?

: When we consume a meal with fat and protein (as nearly all meals have) it can take up to 4 hours for the food to clear the stomach. Once it reaches the duodenum more time passes. Blood borne amino acid and glucose levels remain elevated for several hours (upwards of 6) after a NORMAL meal in the REAL WORLD. What this means is that unless you train with weights first thing in the moring prior to eating anything you are training with a rich pool of amino acids and glucose in your blood. Hence the whole idea of post-workout nutrition becomes somewhat irrelevant! .

If post-workout nutrition is irrelevent then why buy your product?

Heck, I didn't even mention the continual breakdown of the epithelial tissue which lines the digestive tract which provides amino acids for the blood stream.

What is MOST important with respect to training with weights is your total consumption of nutrients throughout the day, not when you consume them (assuming you don't eat everything in one meal :D ). .

This is undoubtably true. But proper nutrient timing IS of secondary importance. And proper post-workout nutriton is a key part to this. So, if you want to OPTIMIZE training, both should be attended to.

: My product will provide the nutrition people need to get the most out of the workouts.

I am not saying Surge is a poor product, I am sure it is not, but for the money you would be better suited to give my product a go.

I wouldn't say either your product or Surge are bad. I would say that both for optimal nutrition and the money, the best bet would to be make your own PWO shake with malto, dex, and hyrdolyzed whey. All the aminos should be covered well enough. (this is not to say that At Large doesn't have excellent products. In particular, i LOVE ETS and would recommend it to everyone!)

We were talking about at least a 2:1 carbs to protein ratio. Not a protein:carbs ratio.

**************Ok, why is that ratio optimal for someone lifting weights? Show me a study which states it is and then we can examine the study itself.


I don't believe that slower-acting proteins are optimal immediately post-workout. Every other time of the day, yes. I do believe that the protein should be as fast absorbing as possible with a higher amount of carbs to funnel it to the muscles. Studies have shown that glycogen resynthesis and concentrations in the muscles is optimal with a malto/dex/whey blend with a higher amount of carbs than protein. I'm puzzled as to why the protein retention at that particular time is important. That provided by whey should be plenty. This is because you should be getting plenty of protein thorughout the day starting with a complex carbs/protein meal 45 minutes to and hour after a PWO shake. I don't know how much glutamine Surge has. I haven't bothered to look. I'm not am advocating for Surge. What I DO advocate is a malto/dex/whey blend (preferably hydrolyzed whey) with at least a 2:1 carbs/protein ratio. It may or may not be Surge. I am not currently using Surge.

**************The studies you are referencing, were they on weight trained individuals? If so, can you give me links? In addition, did these studies show any real improvement in performance based upon a non-starvation diet? The entire premise of what you are quoting as fact is flawed. THAT is my point.



Why must one be extremely depleted for a higher carb to protein ratio to still be optimal for glycogen resynthesis and muscle recovery?

*****************Without depletion what is the point of some hyper-glycogen recovery? If you have not significantly reduced your glycogen stores then what will "optimal" glycogen sythesis do for your recovery? I'll give you a little hint, glycogen synthesis is not a limiting factor for the vast majority of trainees with respect to recovery from training with weights. Runners might benefit, but that is a very different story.



If post-workout nutrition is irrelevent then why buy your product?

***************I'm glad you asked! My product will provide for more of the protein that you need for weight training as well as provide the protein sparing carbs and various other vitamins and minerals which will aid your training. My product also offers a very low fat (almost zero) method of obtaining extra protein for calorie conscious individuals.


This is undoubtably true. But proper nutrient timing IS of secondary importance. And proper post-workout nutriton is a key part to this. So, if you want to OPTIMIZE training, both should be attended to.

***************This could be true assuming your premise of what is optimal is accurate.



I wouldn't say either your product or Surge are bad. I would say that both for optimal nutrition and the money, the best bet would to be make your own PWO shake with malto, dex, and hyrdolyzed whey. All the aminos should be covered well enough. (this is not to say that At Large doesn't have excellent products. In particular, i LOVE ETS and would recommend it to everyone!)

*************You are welcome to your opinion on your protein shakes. My point is that our products are:

effective
taste great
mix incredibly well

You just can't say that about most homebrew shakes.


Boy, there is just not enough time in the day to get to all of this stuff and say what I really want to say.

Chris, I wasn't trying to offend. (and I do like many of At Large Nutrition's products as I said) As a practical matter, I've used many different post-workout strategies. I've had both higher protein post-workout and lower carb and higher carb and lower protein. I've used fructose as my carb source, dextrose, and currently a malto and dex blend. For ME recovery and performance has been best with fast-acting carb in at least a 2:1 ratio to protein. I have read studies that support all of my claims as to the nature of the carbs and protein and the amounts for optimum PWO. I don't currently have them, but I WILL try to find them and post them for you and others in these forums.

I understand your point. 50-60gr of protein immediately post workout is just fine. This will kick start the recovery process nicely. What I neglected to mention was what I am consuming pre, during and post workout also. This has a much better overall effect on protein synthesis and recovery. By ingesting bcaa's pre and during the workout itself, no massive carb intake is necessary PWO. You'll grow sufficient muscle without the crap shoot of potential fat gain. Taking additional EAA's/creatine/glutamine and particularly, a good anti-oxidant formula will do wonders after heavy training. In fact this formula was so effective, that there was a time, roughly 2-3 years, where I consumed no PWO drink at all, instead opting for a whole food meal. I achieved some fantastic off-season gains using this method.

You seem to have a very good feel for your personal nutrition as it relates to your results.

I on the other hand...well, this quote says it pretty good,
"Some people have to learn scientifically what everyone else knows instinctively". -- Marc Segar

(This is my opinion, not an objective truth):

I was a member of WannaBeBig for roughly 2 years, up until Chris and Hulk decided to create At Large Nutrition. Shortly after, few threads on supplements went without Chris saying "Check out our product for that," which was less than necessary given they created an At Large section in their forums. It was, of course, their right to pitch their products on their own forum, but supplement discussions were almost impossible to have without administrators popping in and claiming their product was superior. I wouldn't want to discuss another product because the atmosphere created was that one ought not to buy anything but what they produced.

So I moved on to other forums. I didn't really pay much attention to At Large until JSF, a forum I lurked on for awhile, took up a sponsership by the company. Since then, Chris uses this forum to pitch his products. Again, his right to do so - but it gets obnoxious after awhile. Search his posts - is he discussing much else besides his products? You can click the At Large section to see what you think, but I wonder if I'm the only one to not be happy with At Large nutrition's spamming.

I don't disagree with John's right to sponser a product, I think John's done a wonderful job. Nor do I disagree with At Large nutition's right to advertise, but Chris's method of advertising is what I don't like, which tends to be obnoxious spamming.

Again, just my opinion.

edit: I also found the sponsership of forum member BigChaseyChase, who admits to using steroids on their site, to be about as honest as MuscleTech's sponsership of Jay Cutler. Yeah, it's totally the Nitro-Tech/Nitrean right?

Chris, I wasn't trying to offend. (and I do like many of At Large Nutrition's products as I said) As a practical matter, I've used many different post-workout strategies. I've had both higher protein post-workout and lower carb and higher carb and lower protein. I've used fructose as my carb source, dextrose, and currently a malto and dex blend. For ME recovery and performance has been best with fast-acting carb in at least a 2:1 ratio to protein. I have read studies that support all of my claims as to the nature of the carbs and protein and the amounts for optimum PWO. I don't currently have them, but I WILL try to find them and post them for you and others in these forums.

I didn't take any offense at all, really. I understand you were stating your opinion.

The above post is complete and utter b.s.!

In fact, if anyone does search ALL of my posts they will see that 90% of them have nothing to do with AtLarge on this site.

In fact, go to wbb, the site we own, and see exactly how much talking I do about Atlarge. I (we) do more there as I would be a fool not to, but we are far from obnoxious about it.

Lol, Hyoogeness, if you have an axe to grind why not at least get your facts straight?

Yes, it would be easy to check the facts. Wannabebigforums.com is the URL.

edit: I'd start with reading any questions in the supplement section where people ask for supp. recommendations, discussions of protein powder, fat burners, creatine, etc.

And to say that 90% has nothing to do with Atlarge here is a lie that would be easily checked. Click Chris Mason, search posts and see how much is him advertising.

You seem to have a very good feel for your personal nutrition as it relates to your results.

I on the other hand...well, this quote says it pretty good,
"Some people have to learn scientifically what everyone else knows instinctively". -- Marc Segar

LOL True... I have never been much in to science when it comes to bodybuilding. I notice you are still a young man. Learn as much as you can. Once you are able to combine instinct WITH science, you will far surpass any of your personal fitness expectations :tu:

I think a good comparison for one to see the distinction I'm making is as follows:

Jeremy Likness advertises here, but in no way would I see him as a spammer. He provides a wealth of information and an attitude that would make most anyone appreciate his presence. He rarely is seen in a thread saying "look up Lose Fat Not Faith" any chance he can get and the bulk of his posts are extremely informative.

I'm not expecting every advertising member to be like Jeremy, but when one looks through the Nutrition section and sees a thread where someone is talking about popular supplements, it's just about always the case Chris chimes in with a recommendation for his products (the beginning of this thread is just one example). It's similar to a muscletech ad rep was here, except At Large instead sponsered John. Advertising is fine - no one's not seeing the at large banner and other essential advertising (talking about specials, john saying something, etc) but it's a difference in tactics - and in my OPINION, I don't like it.

The above post is complete and utter b.s.!

In fact, if anyone does search ALL of my posts they will see that 90% of them have nothing to do with AtLarge on this site.

In fact, go to wbb, the site we own, and see exactly how much talking I do about Atlarge. I (we) do more there as I would be a fool not to, but we are far from obnoxious about it.

Lol, Hyoogeness, if you have an axe to grind why not at least get your facts straight?

I have to defend you here, buddy. You have been part of many discussions in posts unrelated to your company or supplements. One that springs to mind immediately is the merits of HIT training. Of course, you do mention your products too sometimes. But that's ok, and it's ok to be passionate about them.

Like I said though, it's just an opinion - and I'm drawing a thin line between advertising on a forum and what I might call spamming.

I have to defend you here, buddy. You have been part of many discussions in posts unrelated to your company or supplements. One that springs to mind immediately is the merits of HIT training. Of course, you do mention your products too sometimes. But that's ok, and it's ok to be passionate about them.

Thank you Jeremy.

The 90% figure was based upon my posts here, not on wbb. That said, of my thousands of posts on wbb you will probably find well over 75% of them are non-related to AtLarge.

Hyooge, you have obviously turned this into a personal attack on me and I think it is in bad taste. Your attempt to veil this attack by saying it is "just my opinion" is really in bad form.

I disagree, but I appoligize if you take it that way.

Thank you Jeremy.

It's Justin. But it's all good.

It's Justin. But it's all good.

Sorry, I'm an idiot!

all aside i feel that the way chris hijacked this thread was a little unneccessary. although it is not for me to say what sponsors can and can't do i feel people should be able to discuss supplements without sponsors pushing their own products in that thread (start your own thread), although i do value the sponsors input because they are knowledgeable and know a lot especially about supplements.

This thread lost its value awhile ago

~v

Hehm, this is the definition of a thread hijack. Any arguments not relating to SURGE and how much it costs (and I mean directly, the fact that you have a competing product does not mean you're free to say you didn't hijack the thread. The first mention was enough, after that it's rude.) should have been relegated to PMs. I'm sorry you feel people are attacking you, which I don't think is the case, but obviously you've chosen to ignore etiquette that some message boards still adhere to. I don't see what you're so upset about.