I've got 2 conflicting concepts here. On the one hand, I understand you shouldn't mix fat and carbs; but on the other hand, what about the famous insulin spike that the low-carb crowd is always talking about?

For example, if I eat a banana and some nuts, I'm mixing carbs and fat, but I'm also counteracting the insulin spike from the banana (high G.I.) and stabilizing blood sugar levels. On the other hand, if I eat the banana alone, I'm not mixing fat and carbs, but I'm causing an insulin spike (which, I understand, leads to fat storage, among other bad things).

So, which is the best scenario? Is the "don't mix fat and carbs" rule a myth? Are the insulin spike and/or its negative effects a myth?

You're confusing blood sugar with insulin. Fat + carb may actually increase insulin, even if it lowers blood sugar. In other words, fiber, protein, and fats in the nuts would slow digestion and therefore slow the blood sugar response, but they won't necessarily slow the insulin response. There is not a direct correlation - insulin can be triggered by protein and fat, it does not require blood sugar.

Insulin does not lead to fat storage. Excess calories does. Insulin is not bad, excess insulin from the typical American diet causes insulin resistance and leads to diabetes which IS bad. Insulin in a healthy adult eating quality, healthy foods is fine because it is what is necessary to drive nutrients into cells.

You might want to do some in-depth research in blood sugar and insulin first, then start drawing conclusions. It can be confusing. Do some Googles on the insulin index, the glycemic index, glycemic load, look at some books like Dr. Strand's Releasing Fat, and then you'll get a better understanding. Don't depend on websites, most people make the mistake of saying that the glycemic index measures insulin spikes - it doesn't.

Jeremy


I've got 2 conflicting concepts here. On the one hand, I understand you shouldn't mix fat and carbs; but on the other hand, what about the famous insulin spike that the low-carb crowd is always talking about?

For example, if I eat a banana and some nuts, I'm mixing carbs and fat, but I'm also counteracting the insulin spike from the banana (high G.I.) and stabilizing blood sugar levels. On the other hand, if I eat the banana alone, I'm not mixing fat and carbs, but I'm causing an insulin spike (which, I understand, leads to fat storage, among other bad things).

So, which is the best scenario? Is the "don't mix fat and carbs" rule a myth? Are the insulin spike and/or its negative effects a myth?

I would not worry so much about mixing fats and carbs. I've seen no actual evidence of it negatively affecting those trying to lose fat.

Here are a couple of threads from other message boards where this topic is debated. Pay special attention to the responses of Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon, respectively, and you'll understand why the statement "Never mix carbs and fats" is a total fallacy.


Avant Labs (http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4605/)

Bodybuilding.com (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=263317/)

John Berardi Ph.D. is a leading proponent of macronutrient partitioning (i.e. don't mix fat and carbs). Check his articles and website out at www.johnberardi.com
You have to realize that this style of eating is part JB's plan to eat big....or, MASSIVE EATING! Also realize that JB is very scientifically oriented and nutrition is his forte! This style of eating can be used for fat loss, muscle gain, or both simultaneously. Assuming you choose the right foods, it allows you to eat more calories and use them more effectively for your desired end result.

Here is an excerpt from one of the articles on his website:
Eat protein with every meal. When eating a carb meal, don’t eat more than 10 grams of fat in that particular meal. Conversely, if you eat more than 10 grams of fat in a single meal, make sure you minimize the carb consumption (10 grams or less), and up the protein. Following these guidelines will enable you to keep your insulin levels in check and prevent you from becoming a tub of lard while eating to get big. Speaking of insulin, that sneaky little hormone can be both anabolic and diabolic due to the fact that it will shuttle nutrients into either fat or muscle cells in accordance with your dietary practices. So you need to minimize insulin at certain times during the day to prevent fat gain, and you need to spike insulin several times a day to keep the anabolic process rolling along. Put another way, here’s what I did:
- First 3 meals of the day: Protein plus fat with no carbs.
- Strength training session. (Call gurney for transport out of the gym)
- Post-workout nutrition. (Massive insulin spike for anabolic recovery)
- Final 3 meals of the day: Protein plus carbs with little to no fat.



Something must be working for JB...
http://www.johnberardi.com/images/m_tshirt_front.jpg

Swolecat is another proponent of the same style of eating. He has got a lot of nice pictures on his site but not a lot of content when it comes to articles. www.vizualxcellence.com

Something must be working for Swolecat...
http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/264swolecat2.jpg

If you wanna learn how to eat like this...I suggest two things.
1. Go to www.johnberardi.com and read everything you can.
2. Go buy the book that he co-authored with Michael Mejia called "Scrawny to Brawny." It has plans laid out in it so it makes planning a bit more simple.

John Berardi also sells an recipe E-book called "Gourmet Nutrition" and a DVD called "No-Nonsense Nutrition". I have both of those and unless you really like to cook, I wouldn't recommend buying either of them just yet.

Another option to have a plain laid out is to hire JB or Swolecat as a personal trainer. That'll run you upwards of a few hundred dollars for either.

5M17H, I think it's pretty safe to say, if most of us spent our entire lives eating healthy, working out and working in the fitness field, we'd look damn good too, mixing fats and carbs or not. Jeremy Likness cut down damn fine mixing carbs and fats quite often if you check out his journal from preparing for a photoshoot a year or so back.

I'd never try to discredit anything Berardi says, he obviously knows his stuff, but most of what he offers is for the extreme optimal situation. Most of us aren't looking to live that kind of lifestlye. Rather we're trying to make healthier eating and fitness a big part of ours. If it means mixing carbs and fats here or there, seriously, it won't hurt you.

Also note Berardi's article condemns mixing the two when on a MASSIVE EATING PLAN. This is because such a high frequency of food can probably lead to fat gain much more likely if proper precautions aren't taken.

5M17H, I think it's pretty safe to say, if most of us spent our entire lives eating healthy, working out and working in the fitness field, we'd look damn good too, mixing fats and carbs or not. Jeremy Likness cut down damn fine mixing carbs and fats quite often if you check out his journal from preparing for a photoshoot a year or so back.

I'd never try to discredit anything Berardi says, he obviously knows his stuff, but most of what he offers is for the extreme optimal situation. Most of us aren't looking to live that kind of lifestlye. Rather we're trying to make healthier eating and fitness a big part of ours. If it means mixing carbs and fats here or there, seriously, it won't hurt you.

Also note Berardi's article condemns mixing the two when on a MASSIVE EATING PLAN. This is because such a high frequency of food can probably lead to fat gain much more likely if proper precautions aren't taken.

EXACTLY!

JB is definitely extreme optimal...he is like an equal mix of Dr. Mercola, Dr. Atkins, and the Amercian Heart Association....its great! I love that stuff. I like the nitty gritty details cuz in my opinion, I'm still trying to learn how to eat for rest of my life. My goal is to turn all that nutritional knowledge into nutritional habits.

If you're not on a massive eating plan, many of his meals do break the "no carb w/ fat" rules but only to a point. Fruit and really low GI carbs (beans, quinoa, etc.) are usually the only exceptions because they do not mess with your insulin very much.

I'm not trying to discredit Jeremy Likeness or any other person. There is a ton of people who have bulked up or lost weight while mixing carbs and fats. The carb/fats thing is just one kind of eating style. I'm quite interested in nutrition and I like trying new things; Personally I think JB and his eating style is top notch in terms of results, nutrition, science, and so much more!

EXACTLY!

JB is definitely extreme optimal...he is like an equal mix of Dr. Mercola, Dr. Atkins, and the Amercian Heart Association....its great! I love that stuff. I like the nitty gritty details cuz in my opinion, I'm still trying to learn how to eat for rest of my life. My goal is to turn all that nutritional knowledge into nutritional habits.

If you're not on a massive eating plan, many of his meals do break the "no carb w/ fat" rules but only to a point. Fruit and really low GI carbs (beans, quinoa, etc.) are usually the only exceptions because they do not mess with your insulin very much.

I'm not trying to discredit Jeremy Likeness or any other person. There is a ton of people who have bulked up or lost weight while mixing carbs and fats. The carb/fats thing is just one kind of eating style. I'm quite interested in nutrition and I like trying new things; Personally I think JB and his eating style is top notch in terms of results, nutrition, science, and so much more!

I completely agree. I'm a huge proponent of JB's nutritional philosophies. But it's absolutely possible to maintain a low bodyfat and eat very healthy without separating fats and carbs. I think doing so is most benefical when hypercaloric (bulking) to minimize fat gain rather than hypocaloric (cutting) or when maintaining weight.

Okay, so it sounds like it's not too bad to mix carbs and fats.
But I still have one question: why are some people opposed to eating the two at the same time? It makes you fat somehow?
Or is what he's saying is that it's just slightly less than perfect to mix them?
I guess what I'm asking is whether the following statement is correct: There is a slight benefit to not mixing carbs and fats, but it's really not the end of the world and you don't HAVE to worry about.

is having a bannana pwo (with protein) fine for opening up whatever sugar opens up to allow the transportation of protein and carbs? i ask this because someone on here said fruit doesnt count in spiking insulin levels.


how bout spree?

Fruit doesn't spike the insulin? Hmm... :confused: I'm not sure about that, IMO most carb (if not all) will spike your insulin if they hit the blood sugar fast enough. Some of the high GI fruits are; bananas, pineapples and oranges. I'm sure there's a lot more and IMO, they do spike the insulin (beneficial for PWO) :tucool:

is having a bannana pwo (with protein) fine for opening up whatever sugar opens up to allow the transportation of protein and carbs? i ask this because someone on here said fruit doesnt count in spiking insulin levels.


how bout spree?

PWO is the one time you WANT to spike insulin levels. You'd be better off with dextrose and protein or a malt/dex/whey blend than a banana. I eat basically along Berardi principles, and I do have some veggies and a little high-fiber, fruit (apples, pears, blackberries) with P + F meals. But no grains. But for PWO, you do want the insulin spike.

is having a bannana pwo (with protein) fine for opening up whatever sugar opens up to allow the transportation of protein and carbs? i ask this because someone on here said fruit doesnt count in spiking insulin levels.


how bout spree?

I personally don't optimize my PWO nutrition for many reasons. However, if/when I did, it would be a whey protein shake in water with dextrose in about a 2:1 carb to protein ratio. From what I've read and understand, you want to to get the carbs and protein into your system as fast as possible. Therefore you should have dextrose (and/or maltodextrin) since it is the simplest to break up in your body and a fast acting protein, like whey powder. The water over milk is because milk is a casein protein which slows absorption, so for optimal conditions, you'd use water.

I know casein absorbs slower than whey, but do they absorb separately? Like, say you put milk instead of water in your whey protein shake. Obviously the casein protein would absorb slowly, but would it also slow down the release of the whey protein? If so, why, and is it really significant?

(I drink my shake in water btw, but I drink milk pretty much all the time.)

Fruit doesn't spike the insulin? Hmm... :confused: I'm not sure about that, IMO most carb (if not all) will spike your insulin if they hit the blood sugar fast enough. Some of the high GI fruits are; bananas, pineapples and oranges. I'm sure there's a lot more and IMO, they do spike the insulin (beneficial for PWO) :tucool:

What does opinion have to do with it? Insulin response can and has been measured. Fruits do raise insulin but minimally compared to something like dextrose. There are debates on whether an insulin spike is really necessary for PWO nutrition, but that is another matter. Personally, I don't think it is necessary but I think consuming fast-acting carbs along with whey protein to elicit it is optimal. The fruits you have mentioned do cause a higher insulin response than some other fruits. Many fruits are actually permitted in modest quanities in P + F by those (such as John Berardi) who recommend avoiding carbs that elicit an appreicable insulin repsonse when consuming fat.

I know casein absorbs slower than whey, but do they absorb separately? Like, say you put milk instead of water in your whey protein shake. Obviously the casein protein would absorb slowly, but would it also slow down the release of the whey protein? If so, why, and is it really significant?

(I drink my shake in water btw, but I drink milk pretty much all the time.)

Again, I think it comes down to what is optimal. Consuming any protein and carb sorce after lifting is good and goes a long way towards recovery. But based on my own experience and all I have read, fast-acting carbs and a fast-acting protein such as (hyrdolyzed) whey is optimal. How significant is it? I couldn't tell you. But I think you're best off sticking to your shake with water given that you already do that.

I personally don't optimize my PWO nutrition for many reasons. However, if/when I did, it would be a whey protein shake in water with dextrose in about a 2:1 carb to protein ratio. From what I've read and understand, you want to to get the carbs and protein into your system as fast as possible. Therefore you should have dextrose (and/or maltodextrin) since it is the simplest to break up in your body and a fast acting protein, like whey powder. The water over milk is because milk is a casein protein which slows absorption, so for optimal conditions, you'd use water.

A 2:1 carb to protein ratio with whey and dextrose with water is the way to go post work out? Damn, I've been using milk. I hope it tastes as good! :D

A 2:1 carb to protein ratio with whey and dextrose with water is the way to go post work out? Damn, I've been using milk. I hope it tastes as good! :D

It's, from what I've always read/heard, the optimal way. Not the only way.

Originally Posted by Primetime
A 2:1 carb to protein ratio with whey and dextrose with water is the way to go post work out? Damn, I've been using milk. I hope it tastes as good!

It's, from what I've always read/heard, the optimal way. Not the only way.

Right. It does still taste good to me though. Like a chocolate milkshake.