There seem to be two opposing camps about the number of meals one should eat in one day to speed up fat loss. (And yes, I know the in = out equation; but there are thermic effects of eating meals, and HUNGER to deal with. If we all had perfect discipline with regards to food, this would not be an issue. But there is an issue of cravings & hunger, and I want to choose a meal plan that minimizes them)

The MULTIPLE (6+) MEALS/DAY (like the Abs Diet) contends:
1) each meal causes a thermic effect, which burns energy just to digest the meal. The more your calories are spread out in separate meals, the greater the cumulative thermic effect.
2) if you eat something small every 2-3 hours, you won't be as hungry
3) naturally thin people tend to eat small amounts all day long, fat people tend to skip breakfast and eat a big dinner (empirical evidence)
4) keeping neither a huge caloric surplus or deficit at any one time increases your chance of being thin

The SINGLE/FEW MEALS (like Carbohydrate Addicts, Tombak, French style of eating) contends:
1) more than 3 meals is snacking, which is excess calories
2) each meal/snack causes an insulin spike which makes you ravenously hungry an hour or so after eating
3) each meal marshals your white blood cells to your digestive system, so the more times you do this per day, the weaker your total immune system is
4) The CA authors ate one enormous meal a day and still lost a lb a day

Does anyone have any other insights about this? Again, I know the general equation (if you eat more than your caloric requirements, you gain weight, if you eat less than your requirements, you lose), but I want to minimize the torture of cravings/hunger while subsisting on 2000 calories a day, and (while it's a minor point) enjoy some thermic effect of eating if it can help.

Thanks! :tu:

I've never read from a credible source that 3 meals is better than 5-6 for losing fat (or building muscle).

If you are planning to do what is optimal, I suggest you go for the higher number of meals.

On a kind of related note, ice water throughout the day will have a calorie burning effect too. (and may help with some of your cravings during the day)

Anything you can do to make the body work harder (as in the case of the ice water, the body has to fight back to remain at 98.6 degrees) is a good thing for weight loss.

The reason for 6 meals is to show your body food is aplenty so it makes it more willing (not sure if this is the right word to use but anyway) to build muscle and lose fat. Your metabolism increases to deal with the increased food intake. Also, each of the 6 meals is actually more or less 6 snacks. Try it yourself. Have a week of 3 meals, breakfast, lunch and dinner. Don't have anything in between meals, absolutely NOTHING. Now, try having 6-9 meals or snacks. You feel more energetic, you don't get the lethargic feeling after a big meal.

The SINGLE/FEW MEALS (like Carbohydrate Addicts, Tombak, French style of eating) contends:
1) more than 3 meals is snacking, which is excess calories

NO- eating too many calories is excess calories

2) each meal/snack causes an insulin spike which makes you ravenously hungry an hour or so after eating

No- that depends on what you eat, not eating in general, and if you are eating frequently, this won't happen.

3) each meal marshals your white blood cells to your digestive system, so the more times you do this per day, the weaker your total immune system is

Baloney


4) The CA authors ate one enormous meal a day and still lost a lb a day

And washed their muscle down the drain.

Well, I tried three meals a day for years and I was 200lbs with not much muscle.

I switched to 5 or 6 meals a day, I am 162.8lbs.

No insulin spikes, almost all the carbs I eat are complex.

It works. That's your proof. Works for countless people here and everywhere who have released lots of fat.

Vincent.

This one is easy, because you're presenting it like opposing opinions, but much of this is fact.

(1) - it is a fact. Scientifically, you won't find a single person knowledgeable about the human digestive process who will disagree that digestion in fact requires calories and therefore contributes to metabolism

(2) - this has been studied extensively, as it takes 2 - 4 hours for foods to completely digest before hunger signals start to trigger again, so multiple meals will keep those signals from activating (providing the smaller meals have adequate calories)

(3) - this one is interesting, I know Bill Phillips says, "Look at animals who graze" but these are just speculative methods of prooving a point

(4) - the idea as I know it doesn't relate so much to surplus/deficit at any given time, but more on blood sugar levels and insulin management

Okay, so the three meals a day camp .. this one is sooo easy it's fun:

(1) - excess calories is when you eat more. If I eat 1800 calories over 3 meals or 1800 calories over 6 meals, there is no way I am eating excess calories if 1800 is my target.

(2) - this defeats their own purpose. If you set speculation aside and see what truly causes an insulin spike, it is the combination of macronutrients in the meal, not the frequency. Larger meals can cause a larger insulin spike. So even if you decide this point IS true, then they are arguing against their own 3 meal a day plan, because presumably you'd be RAVENOUS most of the day!

(3) This one is new to me. I only know of white blood cells being marshalled when you eat foods you are allergic too. Whether you do this in 3 meals or 6 meals it's still an issue if you are allergic. Would love to learn more about this point. Exercise also weakens the immune system during exercise (But strengthens it overall in the long run) so this argument would go against exercise, too

(4) Good for them. Jared ate a subway sandwich every day and lost weight, but personally, I think John Stone could take him.


FINALLY ... re your point about wanting to x, y, and z ... why let someone else decide this for you? Does it really matter if 40 people say 6 meals a day keeps you from being hungry, if in your experience 6 meals a day makes you starve? I appreciate you soliciting input, I think this is an awesome thread, but I encourage you to make decisions based on personal experience and not speculation. No matter how reputable the source online, it is still speculation until you try it because no one knows how it will work for you. Why not take 4 weeks and eat 3 square meals, then take 4 weeks and eat 6 meals, and find out for yourself what works best?

Jeremy






There seem to be two opposing camps about the number of meals one should eat in one day to speed up fat loss. (And yes, I know the in = out equation; but there are thermic effects of eating meals, and HUNGER to deal with. If we all had perfect discipline with regards to food, this would not be an issue. But there is an issue of cravings & hunger, and I want to choose a meal plan that minimizes them)

The MULTIPLE (6+) MEALS/DAY (like the Abs Diet) contends:
1) each meal causes a thermic effect, which burns energy just to digest the meal. The more your calories are spread out in separate meals, the greater the cumulative thermic effect.
2) if you eat something small every 2-3 hours, you won't be as hungry
3) naturally thin people tend to eat small amounts all day long, fat people tend to skip breakfast and eat a big dinner (empirical evidence)
4) keeping neither a huge caloric surplus or deficit at any one time increases your chance of being thin

The SINGLE/FEW MEALS (like Carbohydrate Addicts, Tombak, French style of eating) contends:
1) more than 3 meals is snacking, which is excess calories
2) each meal/snack causes an insulin spike which makes you ravenously hungry an hour or so after eating
3) each meal marshals your white blood cells to your digestive system, so the more times you do this per day, the weaker your total immune system is
4) The CA authors ate one enormous meal a day and still lost a lb a day

Does anyone have any other insights about this? Again, I know the general equation (if you eat more than your caloric requirements, you gain weight, if you eat less than your requirements, you lose), but I want to minimize the torture of cravings/hunger while subsisting on 2000 calories a day, and (while it's a minor point) enjoy some thermic effect of eating if it can help.

Thanks! :tu:

All very helpful posts, thank you all. :tucool:

I had read about the white blood cells going to your gut right after a meal on Mikhail Tombak's site. He might very well be a crackpot, but then again, all the leading authorities were saying adopt a low/non-fat diet in the 1990s, and look where that led us.

http://starthealthylife.com/page136.htm

All very helpful posts, thank you all. :tucool:

I had read about the white blood cells going to your gut right after a meal on Mikhail Tombak's site. He might very well be a crackpot, but then again, all the leading authorities were saying adopt a low/non-fat diet in the 1990s, and look where that led us.

http://starthealthylife.com/page136.htm

Oakland, I read (quickly) through that page, and frankly, while I know nothing else of the writer, I would not take him too seriously.

- I mean, not drinking fluid 20mns before and 1 to 1.30hrs after each meal???? With just 3 meals a day, that's at lest 4 and up to 5.30hrs a day during which you shouldn't drink. Of course at 6 meals a day, that's even more ridiculous: at least 8 and up to 11hrs a day without drinking. Ermmm... no thank you. It's ludicrous frankly. I aim for two liters of water a day, with around 8 hours sleep and 8 to 11 hours where I shouldn't drink, that leaves between 5 and 8 hours to drink two liters.

- And that idea that watching TV while eating confuses your brain and promotes overeating. Well, my brain must be exceptional, ( :D ), I can watch the news during breakfast and know exactly the calories I'm taking in, as well controlling that I get the macronutrients I need. Actually it doesn't need much brain activity, just planning in advance.

- The things he got right are so common sensical that he does not need to be competent to get them right. Yes, a "sitting lifestyle" doesn't help. But "performing at least 1000 different energetic movements a day". Oh man... define "energetic movement". 100 sets of 10? Give me a break...

- The habit of eating mostly refined and cooked foods... yeah, we all know that.

I'm just a beginner at this. Even then, there are enough misleading informations in this webpage to invalidate the guy's credibility big time. Check around this website, visit Jeremy (poster above)'s www.naturalphysiques.com (see an amazing transformation), Tom Venuto's www.fitren.com and www.burnthefat.com (including his gallery at www.fitren.com, link at bottom of pages - someone regularly under 4% body fat who wins natural bodybuilding competitions has to know a thing or two about fat loss), Jon Benson's www.allyourstrength.com (another amazing transformation), listen to the interviews at www.bodychangers.com. Essentially, all these people eat more than three meals per day and have ther results to prove that it works. Subscribe to newsletters. Download e-books from these websites. In Jon Benson and Tom Venuto's co-written "Fit over 40", Dave Draper (former Mr Universe) talks a little about what he eats. He looks pretty fit regardless of age, and that's an understatement if ever there was one. In fact, he does look like a Mr Universe (he also has a newsletter you can subscribe to). The information is out there, these forums are a good place to get started. You will find variants, small differences of opinion between the people mentioned above. Not everyone is exactly the same. No single diet or exercise plan fits all people. Adaptations are necessary according to body type, gender, height, weight, insulin resistance, potential hormonal imbalances, lifestyle etc... yet, the basics are always the same. Number one, the mind: being motivated, trusting the process, visualizing the goal. Then nutrition, weight training, cardio... in no particular order.

I would not compare the teachings of these people to the low fat craze of the 90's. The low fat stuff was partly a gimmick of the food industry and a way to cash in on people's desire to be fit. ALL the people above are amazingly fit, and some of them have made a journey from total "unfitness" to superior fitness, in particular Jeremy Likness and Jon Benson. And it seems to me that this goes largely against the mass produced food industry. I find myself buying organic products from smaller farms, or very specialized products from health food shops (that's where you can get Udo's Oil Blend in the UK). This is a very small, marginal industry compared to the big food companies. This is not a marketing-led trend. Perhaps this is actually the beginning of people reclaiming the health confiscated by the food industry. Perhaps I am utopian. Seems pretty right to me though.

Props to you for coming here and asking questions. I don't know where you're at with your body and what your goals are, but you've come to the right place. And if you do the right thing you can be confident of reaching your goals. Here, and on other websites like www.bodychangers.com, you will see that the seemingly impossible happens all the time. And the ways in which the impossible is engineered show a remarkable consistency.

I think you can forget www.starthealthylife.com and Mikhail what'shisname. :)

Time to go for my food shopping. ;)

I always get carried away when I write...

Vincent.

- I mean, not drinking fluid 20mns before and 1 to 1.30hrs after each meal???? With just 3 meals a day, that's at lest 4 and up to 5.30hrs a day during which you shouldn't drink.

Combine that with his recommendation to chew each bite 50 times, and you'll spend three hours at each meal and NEVER get to drink! :spaz:

The other thing that made my eyebrows raise: "Undigested food is turned into fat." Now, I'm not a doctor, but... really? I thought food had to be digested or, em, go back out from whence it came. :o

Thank you guys, esp Vincent & Jeremy, for your posts. I think the few-meals idea is pretty much discredited, at least for people who want to keep/gain muscle. The authors of the Carbohydrate Diet were kind of skinny...

As for me, I weigh 245 lbs and am 22% bf (6'2"). I gain fat & muscle fairly easily, and exercise a lot (lifting & cardio)--my challenge is going to be reining in eating. I eat quickly and a LOT (and I'm a vegetarian). I usually gorge on food when I've waited too long, and let hunger build out of control....all the more reason to spread out my eating over 6 meals and not let the hunger monster out of his cage. ;)

I will add my personal experiences with meal frequency:

-Eating every 3 hrs or so, beginning at breakfast DOES control your appetite. If I've already eaten 4 times before I get home from work, I'm not tempted to pig out in the evening. If I haven't eaten anything, or all I've eaten was lunch, I will uncontrollable eat everything in sight in the evening.

-Nearly every time I have succesfully lost weight, I've eaten 5-6 small meals. Every time I've gained weight, I'm usually not eating breakfast, only eating lunch half of the time, and eating a ton of food in the pm. Granted, this likely also has to do with food choices and total calories, but the fact remains.

-Eating small frequent meals reduces muscle loss while on a hypocaloric diet. I've done it both ways, and I guarantee you this is true.

I don't know if you need as many as 6 meals or not... I was looking at John's food logs, and it looks like he only eats 4 most of the time. I eat at least 5, and sometimes 6 if I have enough time to get it in before the day's over.