I'm curious to know what the preffered methods of cardio are amongst everyone.

I have bene doing HIIT on the eliptical trainer 4 times a week, for 12 minutes each day for the last 3 weeks.
I go at a flat out pace for 20 seconds, and a moderate intensity for 40 seconds. By the end of it, I am sweating heavily and very tired, with an elevated heart rate for a good 20 minutes after I have stopped which feels really good.

I have been combining this with weight training and a (100%) clean diet. Unfortunately, I have not seen a drop in the scale weight.

I am hoping this is due to an increase in muscle mass along with the fat loss (although I don't look any different). Would anyone recommend switching to a moderate intensity plan of fasted state cardio for 45 minutes instead? Would this be better for fat loss?

How have the 2 methods compared in your opinions?

Thanks.

I don't think 12 minutes is enough.

You need to build up to 20~25 minutes of HIIT. If you're having trouble doing 12 minutes, or simply have a dislike for the necessary evil we all know as cardio, then you'll hate steady-state cardio. Low intensity steady state (LISS) requires a minimum of 40 minutes on an empty stomach to have its maximal effect on fat loss, followed by a protein and fat only meal. Do not have carbs following LISS.

-R

Wow!....kick in those afterburners!......Your regimen sounds alittle intense.....I do the same thing on an eliptical for 10 minutes...however the first 2 minutes are low intensity at a light setting (on mine--4) then the 3rd minute is a speed blast at same setting.......next minute is low at setting 5 then a minute of high intense at same. Minutes 6 and 7 are low/high intensity at setting 6 then one minute of "plug" at setting 7 then drop it down to setting 5 for high/low for last 2 minutes......when I finish this my heart rate is in the 135 to 145 zone but it takes less than a minute to drop..........I do mine at the end of a workout so the ticker is warmed up anyway....I was doing 20 minutes of slow cardio but since research shows that muscle-defeating Cortisol is released within 45 to 60 minutes of a workout start I'm trying to keep the whole gig under an hour......on the other hand I'm not trying to lose weight either so I don't separate the HIT from the workout. I think if I spaced the high/low intensity intervals as short as yours ( mere seconds) I'd be a panting mass on the floor unless I was a superior athlete in the peak of condition. :drool:

Wow!....kick in those afterburners!......Your regimen sounds alittle intense.....I do the same thing on an eliptical for 10 minutes...however the first 2 minutes are low intensity at a light setting (on mine--4) then the 3rd minute is a speed blast at same setting.......next minute is low at setting 5 then a minute of high intense at same. Minutes 6 and 7 are low/high intensity at setting 6 then one minute of "plug" at setting 7 then drop it down to setting 5 for high/low for last 2 minutes......when I finish this my heart rate is in the 135 to 145 zone but it takes less than a minute to drop..........I do mine at the end of a workout so the ticker is warmed up anyway....I was doing 20 minutes of slow cardio but since research shows that muscle-defeating Cortisol is released within 45 to 60 minutes of a workout start I'm trying to keep the whole gig under an hour......on the other hand I'm not trying to lose weight either so I don't separate the HIT from the workout. I think if I spaced the high/low intensity intervals as short as yours ( mere seconds) I'd be a panting mass on the floor unless I was a superior athlete in the peak of condition. :drool:

Thanks for your input. I was a bit concerned that I wasn't spending enough time on each cardio session. I'm amazed at how people can go on for over 20 minutes of HIIT - must be pretty hardcore.
My cardio program is based on the HIIT article over at bodybuilding.com. I did used to do 30 seconds of flat out, then 30 seconds of low intensity and do that for a few cycles, but It was very difficult to last the whole 30 seconds flat out on the eliptical (Quads usually gave way before exhaustion).

You seem waaay fitter than myself. On a flat out pace, my heart rate reaches 174 bpm, and in the 40 seconds that I work out at "low intensity", it only falls to around 160.
Maybe I should spend more time on the low intensity portions, because a bpm of 160 is still like 80% of my max (220 minus my age of 21).

By the way, I assure you - I'm by no means in any peak of condition. Until about 3 weeks ago, I don't think I had done any cardio for years, apart from the odd game of football with friends etc.
I think the reason I am still standing at the end is because my high intensity portions are only 20 seconds long. You can go on for a whole minute on the other hand, which is really impressive.

I notice you said you hadn't done any cardio at all up until about 3 weeks ago...........as in anything else Rome wasn't built in a day......I've been doing mine for way longer than that and I didn't start out at full bore.....I built up gradually.......If I started on day one at the intensity I'm at now I would have had a full-blown cardiac arrest.....If Iwas a person that was more than 10lbs overweight and I was just starting out without any prior physical conditioning and I was over the age of 25 I'd be mighty,mighty careful about what I was about to undertake especially if i had any hereditary or genetic conditions............a trip to the doc for a checkup is a good start..... :jumping:

I've read in various places that excess HIITing may be too stressful on the body, especially in glycogen depleted (ketosis-like) states. I recall a comparison of HIITing to squats in terms of the stressing on the legs when done too frequently, so when I tried it, I'd only do HIITs a few times (1-2) a week, alternating with longer jogs/elliptical sessions. Then again, I'm in about as mediocre cardio condition as you are, Sham. 10mins of 20 high/40 low on a stationary bike rendered me almost unable to walk to the car with the lactic acid build up and what not... I ended up having to do a solid 10mins cool down before I could walk without legs buckling.

Sham, work on getting your fitness up. 20 minutes is really not as hard as it sounds. The body's an amazing machine; it can adapt very well. You can be in much better shape than you are right now. Just take it slowly and gradually. Alternatively, you can switch to a different form of cardio that might better match your fitness level now. I respect Bluestreak's opinion a lot and often agree with it, but not on this one. Lower intensity steady-state cardio may work better in a fasted state, but I think the differences are minimal unless you're working on getting very low body fat. I think non-fasted lower intensity cardio can easily get most people close to single digit body fat with a good weights program and good diet. I think 40 minutes of moderate intensity cardio might be good for you. It shouldn't feel like HIT but neither should it be a walk in the park. Your fitness will also improve. Once you're comfortable jogging or doing a moderate pace on the bike, you can add intervals.

Thanks for your input. I was a bit concerned that I wasn't spending enough time on each cardio session. I'm amazed at how people can go on for over 20 minutes of HIIT - must be pretty hardcore.
My cardio program is based on the HIIT article over at bodybuilding.com. I did used to do 30 seconds of flat out, then 30 seconds of low intensity and do that for a few cycles, but It was very difficult to last the whole 30 seconds flat out on the eliptical (Quads usually gave way before exhaustion).

You seem waaay fitter than myself. On a flat out pace, my heart rate reaches 174 bpm, and in the 40 seconds that I work out at "low intensity", it only falls to around 160.
Maybe I should spend more time on the low intensity portions, because a bpm of 160 is still like 80% of my max (220 minus my age of 21).

By the way, I assure you - I'm by no means in any peak of condition. Until about 3 weeks ago, I don't think I had done any cardio for years, apart from the odd game of football with friends etc.
I think the reason I am still standing at the end is because my high intensity portions are only 20 seconds long. You can go on for a whole minute on the other hand, which is really impressive.

Cool, some useful responses.
I am a bit confused now.

I would like to try some fasted state cardio (like early in the morning), but then I can't have my staple breakfast of oats afterwards (only protein or fat after LISS?).

Has anyone experienced the differences in effectivenss of fasted state and non fasted state low intensity cardio?

jsbrook, I will probably give what you recommend a go. Then slowly up my intesity (as my respitory system adapts) and add intervals.
I just get a bit ahead of myself and try and jump right in at the top, even if it is gonna kill me.

So I guess I should go for between 60% - 70% of my max HR? (119.4 - 139.3 bpm).

Just looking at those numbers makes me happy, because I know how I feel at 174 bpm on a HIIT interval - this should be far more enjoyable (if not waaay longer).

Cheers.

I think that heart-rate range would be fine. No, I wouldn't recommend eating oats after a fasted state LISS session. To tell you the truth, I wait about 30-40 mintues to eat carbs after any cardio session unless it's a really rigorous, intense interval session. Again, this is not an absolute must, however. How much fat do you want to lose? Will you lose fat eating carbs after cardio? Yes. Will you lose it as quickly? Maybe not-but it's not really good to lose fat too quickly. I've never done low-intensity cardio, but I'm had no problem losing fat with non-fasted moderate intensity cardio. Hope this helps. I'm sure others will be jumping in with their opinions.

Cool, some useful responses.
I am a bit confused now.

I would like to try some fasted state cardio (like early in the morning), but then I can't have my staple breakfast of oats afterwards (only protein or fat after LISS?).

Has anyone experienced the differences in effectivenss of fasted state and non fasted state low intensity cardio?

jsbrook, I will probably give what you recommend a go. Then slowly up my intesity (as my respitory system adapts) and add intervals.
I just get a bit ahead of myself and try and jump right in at the top, even if it is gonna kill me.

So I guess I should go for between 60% - 70% of my max HR? (119.4 - 139.3 bpm).

Just looking at those numbers makes me happy, because I know how I feel at 174 bpm on a HIIT interval - this should be far more enjoyable (if not waaay longer).

Cheers.

I don't think 12 minutes is enough.

You need to build up to 20~25 minutes of HIIT. If you're having trouble doing 12 minutes, or simply have a dislike for the necessary evil we all know as cardio, then you'll hate steady-state cardio. Low intensity steady state (LISS) requires a minimum of 40 minutes on an empty stomach to have its maximal effect on fat loss, followed by a protein and fat only meal. Do not have carbs following LISS.

-R
Why no carbs after LISS?

Cool, some useful responses.
I am a bit confused now.

I would like to try some fasted state cardio (like early in the morning), but then I can't have my staple breakfast of oats afterwards (only protein or fat after LISS?).


Cheers.

I have oats every day, including those when I wake up and do cardio for 45 minutes before I eat anything. Im 35 pounds down, it cant be that bad. I say go for it and see how it goes.

The thought is that you will have more time in the fat burning mode if you keep your carbs out until at least an hour after the LISS cardio. It's not a rule set in stone-- if you're still doing the fasted cardio, you will still burn calories and fat.. if you're in a caloric deficit, you will lose weight. Good job on the 35 lbs!

So are you all saying that Low intensity Long duration cardio is pretty much useless if not done in a fasted state?

Nope, cardio is never useless... you're still burning calories from your daily in/out total and increasing your fitness.

Good, because I cant do fasted state cardio.

So are you all saying that Low intensity Long duration cardio is pretty much useless if not done in a fasted state?

no.

Ok, well, due to some of the responses on this thread, I tried 40 mins on the eliptical yesterday, at 65% of my Max HR (130bpm).

To be honest, it was actually quite enjoyable - I did it whilst watching a film on TV. I was quite drenched with sweat afterwards. I wasn't out of breath at all however, and did feel quite a buzz running through my body. The counter reported that I had burnt "200 calories".

I may start doing this more regularly now, rather than my 12 minute HIIT sessions.

The only downside I can think of is that this method will likely result in more muscle loss?

Ok, well, due to some of the responses on this thread, I tried 40 mins on the eliptical yesterday, at 65% of my Max HR (130bpm).

To be honest, it was actually quite enjoyable - I did it whilst watching a film on TV. I was quite drenched with sweat afterwards. I wasn't out of breath at all however, and did feel quite a buzz running through my body. The counter reported that I had burnt "200 calories".

I may start doing this more regularly now, rather than my 12 minute HIIT sessions.

The only downside I can think of is that this method will likely result in more muscle loss?

shouldn't. in my opinion. 40 minutes at moderate intensity with proper fuel shouldn't put the body under such stress that it would break down muscle. more likely if fasting with increased intensity. But I really don't even see this as much of a problem.

The only downside I can think of is that this method will likely result in more muscle loss?

I have actually heard that doing HIIT is more risky in terms of muscle loss because of the high intensity it requires, specially if you dont supplement the HIIT session properly (with some fast acting protein, ingested before and after the session).
From what Ive heard, HIIT should never be done in a fasted state.

The most effective form of cardio for the individual relies on the person's bodytype. If you have ectomorphic tendencies, then long duration, low intensity is better. If you fall under the endomorph vein, or endo/meso, high intensity short duration (HIIT) would optimally burn fat while preserving muscle for this type individual.

The most effective form of cardio for the individual relies on the person's bodytype. If you have ectomorphic tendencies, then long duration, low intensity is better. If you fall under the endomorph vein, or endo/meso, high intensity short duration (HIIT) would optimally burn fat while preserving muscle for this type individual.

Why? What's the mechanism that makes it vary by bodytype? I don't consider myself an ectomorph, and longer duration, moderate intensity cardio has served me very well for losing fat and retaining muscle.

Why? What's the mechanism that makes it vary by bodytype? I don't consider myself an ectomorph, and longer duration, moderate intensity cardio has served me very well for losing fat and retaining muscle.


You are correct sir, it will work. I am instead referring to optimal rates.
HIIT cardio will keep metabolism high throughout the day long after you are done with it. This is exactly what the ecto type does not require, since his/her metabolism is already fired up. However for the endo type, who has little trouble gaining muscle AND fat, and who's metabolism is sluggish, the benefits of the steady increase in metabolic rate will be optimal for burning fat at a more desired rate all day long.

whoa!.... this is news to me. im between and meso and an endo and i have been doing low to mid intensity cardio, fasted state, 45 mintues.

if this info is correct.... that is for my body type its okay to do HIT cardio and not worry about the loss of muscle and still burn fat... then im going to give it a shot.


are we sure here? or is this one of those... highly debatable issues... just like fasted cardio for fat loss?

You are correct sir, it will work. I am instead referring to optimal rates.
HIIT cardio will keep metabolism high throughout the day long after you are done with it. This is exactly what the ecto type does not require, since his/her metabolism is already fired up. However for the endo type, who has little trouble gaining muscle AND fat, and who's metabolism is sluggish, the benefits of the steady increase in metabolic rate will be optimal for burning fat at a more desired rate all day long.

I see what you're saying in that an ectomorph does not really want their metabolism any faster. I'll throw this out there-I think the most effective cardio for fat loss is a combination of LISS and HIIT princiciples. Intervals are an extremetly effective way of losing fat. I'd suggest this: 10 minute warmup jogging or at a moderate pace on the bike. A 2 minute interval at an intense (HIIT) pace, followed by a 1-2 minute recovery jog (or bike) at a lower-intensity pace. The length of the recovery interval should be determined by fitness. Another 2 minute HIIT interval. Repeat the cycle until you've been working out for about 37 minutes and then cool-down for 7-8 minutes for about a 45 minute session overall. I do understand that not everyone has the combination of endurance, speed, and stregnth to do this, but it's a great workout. During cutting, I would do this once a week and two moderate intensity, steady-state 45 minute cardio sesions. All 3 were on non-lifting days. (I was doing 3 full-body HIT workouts per week). Towards the end of my cut, I sometimes added fasted LISS cardio in the form of incline treadmill walking on weight-lifting days if the mood struck me. Occasionally I would do two of the interval sessions in a week, replacing one of the two moderate intensity workouts. This may sound like a lot of cardio to some people, but no session was over 45 minutes, and every workout was properly fuelled except for the fasted LISS sessions, which weren't supposed to be. The fast intervals were a EXCELLENT way of revving up the metabolism, but the recovery intervals allowed for a longer workout and thus more calories to be burned. But 45 minutes was still short enough so there was no muscle catabolism. I didn't lose any muscle on my cut. I'm not saying there aren't other cardio plans that aren't equally or more effective, but this worked very well for me, and I enjoyed it too!

We need a :bangs_head_on_desk: smilie for anytime someone asks this question because we know what the outcome will be. :lol:

Everyone can argue until they're blue in the face about which form is better. The bottom line is that if you eat properly in order to optimize whichever form of cardio you choose, you are likely to see results from all forms. Which is more optimal? Who gives a... do whichever you enjoy or fits your schedule best, stick with it, and if your diet is in check (and hopefully you're hitting the weights), you're going to see positive results.

The way I look at it is days that I (you) get up and do cardio in the morning, do a lower-intensity fasted workout. Days that I (you) want to do cardio in the afternoon/night, do a higher intensity cardio workout (whether it be HIIT or long-duration). Switch it up, stick to one, whatever, as Nike says: JUST DO IT. :tu:

Karatetricker is right. Because all the different methods do work, don't be afraid to try them all and see what's best for you!

Why no carbs after LISS?

Just to be thorough (I ain't readin' all the responses), it's because you're promoting and accelerating your body's utilization of fat as the preferred energy source through LISS. If you take carbs in during those critical couple of hours post-cardio, your body will begin to utilize the ingested carbohydrates as energy instead of your body fat.

... all the different methods do work, don't be afraid to try them all and see what's best for you!

It's not even a matter of trying them to see which works - just do your damn cardio and stop obsessing over which is best! Whether you do one or the other doesn't matter as long as you do some form of cardio several times during the week. Subsequent to your cardio, provide your body with nutrition tailored to suit each form of cardio and you'll lose fat, guaranteed.

I am going to start awarding these in threads that beat a dead horse... it's a joke I have yet to transplant from another forum I frequent.

Without further adieu, I present to this thread...

http://www.sdplastics.com/dedhorse.gif

:D


-Roger

So are you all saying that Low intensity Long duration cardio is pretty much useless if not done in a fasted state?

I don't know that that's what was said at all.. however.. I was able to get down to 14% body fat doing low intensity steady state cardio (between 45 minutes and 90 minutes at a time).. it's all I did while training for competition two years ago and it worked wonders for me... I DID have oatmeal in my first meal after cardio in the morning but I waited an hour before eating it, or anything else for that matter.

I don't know that that's what was said at all.. however.. I was able to get down to 14% body fat doing low intensity steady state cardio (between 45 minutes and 90 minutes at a time).. it's all I did while training for competition two years ago and it worked wonders for me... I DID have oatmeal in my first meal after cardio in the morning but I waited an hour before eating it, or anything else for that matter.



:D Don't mean to beat that poor ol' horse any more but...

Just a little question for Chameleon...

I'd love to go longer on my fasted L.I.S.S. days like you mentioned you did (up to 90 minutes), but I've been worried about sabotaging myself - were you able manage to losing mainly fat & keeping most of your lean mass? I usually force myself to limit it to 45 min. (I still sneak in 60 minutes once & a while) and would like to know I could push it further if I was feeling good...

Glad you were able to get down to 14% - that's excellent... :tu:

Thanks,

G

:D Don't mean to beat that poor ol' horse any more but...

Just a little question for Chameleon...

I'd love to go longer on my fasted L.I.S.S. days like you mentioned you did (up to 90 minutes), but I've been worried about sabotaging myself - were you able manage to losing mainly fat & keeping most of your lean mass? I usually force myself to limit it to 45 min. (I still sneak in 60 minutes once & a while) and would like to know I could push it further if I was feeling good...

Glad you were able to get down to 14% - that's excellent... :tu:

Thanks,

G

I know I probably lost a little bit of LBM, but honestly I don't think I lost that much... my weight and body fat went down but I was still lifting the same amounts... and sometimes more than I had when I first started... diet really is the key here.. as long as your getting enough protien (which I was getting a TON of) and adequate carbs and fats you should be okay with doing more than 45 minutes of LISS.. I know that this is controversial around here.. but it worked for me... I never did more than 90 minutes at one time though.

Cool - I guess i don't have to worry so much when I "sneak" in a little extra here & there to help with that stubborn BF. Just gotta make sure the nutrition is right on...

Thanks again,

G