Hi all,

My g/f has been working out fairly hard, and wants her abs to by defined and showing by sometime this summer. She already has a very small outline from top to bottom.

She is 5'7", 139lbs, and ~ 17%bf. She lifts 3 times a week, and does cardio 4-5 times a week (~30 min sessions).

What bf % would she have to get down to, for her abs to be defined? And how low can she go while staying in good health?

Thanks

I may have my lines crossed here, but I believe she will need to go to about 12-14%. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

It varies depending on the individual, but 12-14% is a good general estimate.

So assuming she loses fat only and no lean mass, she'd have to cut down to 131-134 lbs.

It does vary on the individual and where your predisposition to carry fat lies. For me, abs became pretty visible around 13-14%. Right now I am around 11% bf. 6"0 and around 143 lbs. I feel pretty healthy and have no side effects that women often experience when their body fat gets low. How is her diet? Honestly, diet is 90% of it. The best results I have had is when I am doing lots of cardio and eating squeaky clean with few to no cheat meals. - and weights of course.

There's a very fine line between being body fat levels being low enough to see your abs, and being high enough for your body to function at optimum health. 17-20% body fat for women is considered low, 14-17% is considered very low. In most of the women I've seen report 17% body fat, I can see their abs.

For the body to function normally and healthily a certain amount of body fat is required. This is called essential fat. For women the average amount of essential fat is 12% of bodyweight and for men it is 3%. Trying to achieve a body fat percentage that is so low it affects your essential fat stores is NOT good for your health.

Storage fat, on top of essential fat is also required for good health. It's used to protect internal organs in the chest and abdomen.

I suggest to read the articleDefining the Line between Good Health, Fitness, and Leanness (http://www.newellness.com/physfitn/fitness.htm). Body fat levels of less than 18% are usually seen in highly trained women athletes and should not be part of our general fitness expectations.

Keep in mind that the defined six-pack you see on fitness models does NOT represent the healthiest state for your body to be in.

The health effects of osteoporosis and amenhorrhea are not from low body fat, but rather from overtraining or starvation. If you get lean slowly over time by keeping your deficit fairly close to your needed calories, you can be pretty darn ripped without major health consequences.

The factor directly leading to osteoporosis and low bone density is insufficient calcium intake. Genereally, the cause of ammenorrhea is malnutrition. While the cause of these is not low body fat percentage directly, they are highly correlated, because to get to a low body fat percentage, people often choose to cut back on dairy and fruits.

I'm not really sure what the "leanness limit" is for getting ripped without major health consequences, but I believe that each percentage point below about 18% body fat puts you at a greater health risk.

Actually the osteoporosis and amenorrhea are probably related to a poorly misunderstood interaction of calcium, cortisol, and the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis that gets screwed up during starvation. So proper exercise supported with thoughtful nutrition should not be a health hazard down to digits lower than 18%.

Some good points and argument here. I think it varies from person to person as to what their body can handle. I am going to go out on a limb and call myself an "athlete." I maintain high quality nutrition, eat lots of fruits, have the equivalent of 16oz. of skim milk a day as well as at least 8 oz. of yogurt a day. I LOVE my dairy and would never give it up. I also keep my calories high enough to maintain my current training regimen. I have not experienced a lack of menstruation, but rather a much lighter one. But I am going to attribute that to the IUD as that is when the cycles became much lighter a year ago.

I think it is best left up to the individual to train and work with their body to see how it responds to lowering their bodyfat.
Age has a lot to do with as well. I wouldn't expect to see a woman in her 60's at a low bodyfat as myself.

It does vary on the individual and where your predisposition to carry fat lies. For me, abs became pretty visible around 13-14%. Right now I am around 11% bf. 6"0 and around 143 lbs. I feel pretty healthy and have no side effects that women often experience when their body fat gets low. How is her diet? Honestly, diet is 90% of it. The best results I have had is when I am doing lots of cardio and eating squeaky clean with few to no cheat meals. - and weights of course.

Her diet is really not great, she has "sweets" and lattes 3-5 times a week, and tends to skip meals such as lunch. She's just starting to try and just have a single cheat day, and eat 3-4 clean meals the rest of the week.


There's a very fine line between being body fat levels being low enough to see your abs, and being high enough for your body to function at optimum health. 17-20% body fat for women is considered low, 14-17% is considered very low. In most of the women I've seen report 17% body fat, I can see their abs.

You can see a little deffinition on her upper abs, but fades in the middle, and almost none on the bottom. She's about 17-17.5% bf according to our measurements.

Also, I forgot to say that she is 24 years old.

The new plans is to do minimum 30 minutes of cardio (running, jogging, jump rope, elliptical) on lift days, and 45-60 minutes on cardio days. Abs workouts will be 3 times a week. Right now for abs, she does leg lifts, crunches, and various machines. We try to switch it up and not do the same thing every workout.

Thanks for all the info and suggestions. Feel free to add more :)

I have decent visible abs when I'm in a somewhat dehydrated state (in the AM, after workout, etc). I'm somewhere between 14% and 16% BF (depending on whether you believe an Omron or my own inexperienced caliper checks). I might be showing them at a bit higher BF% than others as I've always had a relatively small midsection (23" waist) with the weight in the hips/thigh area.

I do have hormonal problems, but as mentioned above that's due to undereating and overexercising - that's been corrected, but it can take up to 6 months for the body to notice, or so I have heard. :(

The lower abs are almost impossible for me to have visible. For one thing- I have had two kids, so that area of the abs is covered with some loose skin and lots and lot of stretch marks. But abs are pretty visible above the navel.

In general, however the lower abs are a lot harder to expose, usually they are one of the last things to "reveal" themselves as that is where the fat tends to want to cling onto.

This picture was taken today - end of the day, after dinner, so full tummy and fully hydrated, and not trying to flex the abs. :) Just to give you an idea of where my abs are at these days.

Age has a lot to do with as well. I wouldn't expect to see a woman in her 60's at a low bodyfat as myself.

You would be surprised. :cool:

You would be surprised. :cool:


I am sure that I would. I stand corrected. Most of the people that I know personally that fall in that age bracket are far from healthy. :)

With the diet change, and increase of cardio and ab workouts, she'll hopefully be able to get closer to her goal. She wants to drop to about 12% as long as she doesn't have have health issues on the way.

I hope that she will watch her diet very carefully, take a good multivitamin, and consider consulting with a dietician. The fewer calories that she eats, the less chance she has of getting all the nutrients that she needs. Is she tracking her calories under fitday? She can check under reports if she's gettting the essential vitamins and minerals. It's sometimes impossible to tell by someone's looks, or even by how they feel whether they have health issues.
:gl:

The lower abs are almost impossible for me to have visible. For one thing- I have had two kids, so that area of the abs is covered with some loose skin and lots and lot of stretch marks. But abs are pretty visible above the navel.

In general, however the lower abs are a lot harder to expose, usually they are one of the last things to "reveal" themselves as that is where the fat tends to want to cling onto.

This picture was taken today - end of the day, after dinner, so full tummy and fully hydrated, and not trying to flex the abs. :) Just to give you an idea of where my abs are at these days.

:) Hi, I’ve been following your thread for the last day or so and have found it most interesting and informative. The web sites you’ve all provided have been really enlightening, especially those concerning women and body fat percentages. I must say reading about you young ladies and your diets and general nutritional concerns have brought me a few smiles and some fond memories too. Having expressed to you my delight with this thread I must tell you that I do take exception to the one comment about the body fat and definition that we women in our sixth decade are able to achieve. I don’t know what my body fat % is and I’m certainly not the best example of all that we, us ordinary type, over 60 gals, are able to accomplish (with determination) but I am posting below two pictures of myself that look, I think, fairly “cut” for a woman of almost any age. I know a fair number of women in their sixties that look a whole lot better than I who, I am certain, wouldn’t want or expect anyone to cut them slack where working out and achieving really good results are concerned. This sounds a little “preachy” I don’t mean for it to. I just wanted to say that when you and all the other great young gals who have participated in this dialogue reach your sixties you will, no doubt, look all most as wonderful as you do right now because you’ve learned, early on, what marvelous things you can do to and for your body! Some of us older gals have learned that too!! :claplow:

:) Hi, I’ve been following your thread for the last day or so and have found it most interesting and informative. The web sites you’ve all provided have been really enlightening, especially those concerning women and body fat percentages. I must say reading about you young ladies and your diets and general nutritional concerns have brought me a few smiles and some fond memories too. Having expressed to you my delight with this thread I must tell you that I do take exception to the one comment about the body fat and definition that we women in our sixth decade are able to achieve. I don’t know what my body fat % is and I’m certainly not the best example of all that we, us ordinary type, over 60 gals, are able to accomplish (with determination) but I am posting below two pictures of myself that look, I think, fairly “cut” for a woman of almost any age. I know a fair number of women in their sixties that look a whole lot better than I who, I am certain, wouldn’t want or expect anyone to cut them slack where working out and achieving really good results are concerned. This sounds a little “preachy” I don’t mean for it to. I just wanted to say that when you and all the other great young gals who have participated in this dialogue reach your sixties you will, no doubt, look all most as wonderful as you do right now because you’ve learned, early on, what marvelous things you can do to and for your body! Some of us older gals have learned that too!! :claplow:

You look AWESOME Carole! Thanks for posting those pics. You are an inspiration and I only hope that I look as good as you when I am 60+ years young. And once again, I stand corrected on my comment about women 60+ years and bodyfat! WTG! :tucool:

You look AWESOME Carole! Thanks for posting those pics. You are an inspiration and I only hope that I look as good as you when I am 60+ years young. And once again, I stand corrected on my comment about women 60+ years and bodyfat! WTG! :tucool:

:) You're a sweetheart and for all us older ladies out here...Thanks! :tu:

:) Hi, I’ve been following your thread for the last day or so and have found it most interesting and informative. The web sites you’ve all provided have been really enlightening, especially those concerning women and body fat percentages. I must say reading about you young ladies and your diets and general nutritional concerns have brought me a few smiles and some fond memories too. Having expressed to you my delight with this thread I must tell you that I do take exception to the one comment about the body fat and definition that we women in our sixth decade are able to achieve. I don’t know what my body fat % is and I’m certainly not the best example of all that we, us ordinary type, over 60 gals, are able to accomplish (with determination) but I am posting below two pictures of myself that look, I think, fairly “cut” for a woman of almost any age. I know a fair number of women in their sixties that look a whole lot better than I who, I am certain, wouldn’t want or expect anyone to cut them slack where working out and achieving really good results are concerned. This sounds a little “preachy” I don’t mean for it to. I just wanted to say that when you and all the other great young gals who have participated in this dialogue reach your sixties you will, no doubt, look all most as wonderful as you do right now because you’ve learned, early on, what marvelous things you can do to and for your body! Some of us older gals have learned that too!! :claplow:

WOW!! You look awesome! I hope that I can look even look half as good as you do. You are such an inspiration! :db: :bb:

WOW!! You look awesome! I hope that I can look even look half as good as you do. You are such an inspiration! :db: :bb:


:) Thanks for the kind words and rest assured dear heart you’re going to look so much better than I if you’ll just keep the promise to yourself. You go girl! :tu:

I know a lot of people say that having a very low body fat percentage is unhealthy, but I feel better than ever! I'm 25 years old 5'3" 110lbs and my bodyfat measured in at 11% today (and I had a trainer at my gym do it). I feel better now at 11% than I did at 16%. I have tons of definition in my abs, arms and shoulders. Yes, I'm a self-proclaimed "gym rat" and my diet is usually very clean with 6 very small meals every day. When I have a "cheat" day I feel totally gross, tired and bloated. I've learned to seriously enjoy healthy foods and can't go more than one day without going to the gym. I don't think I'm unhealthy because I have a low body fat percentage. I feel amazzing!

I wanted to add that I am according to my trainer at about 8.5% prior to the last time -10% bf. The last time I was measured, I was in the middle of T.O.M AND post free day.

I have never lost my cycle, I WISH! and I feel great. I brought my bodyfat down slowly. I do have Hashimoto's thyoid disease but thyoid disease was a part of my life long before I ever found this new lifestyle(3 yrs ago).

My abs dont show well. I think I can say a lot of severe stretch marks and lose skin, having had 5 children has a lot to do with it AND I also carry what little fat this body has on my hips/abs. ugh!

I am off to read the link posted about women and low body fat, but personally I have maintained this BF for about 6 months and fele just fine.

I wanted to add that I am according to my trainer at about 8.5% prior to the last time -10% bf. The last time I was measured, I was in the middle of T.O.M AND post free day.

I have never lost my cycle, I WISH! and I feel great. I brought my bodyfat down slowly. I do have Hashimoto's thyoid disease but thyoid disease was a part of my life long before I ever found this new lifestyle(3 yrs ago).

My abs dont show well. I think I can say a lot of severe stretch marks and lose skin, having had 5 children has a lot to do with it AND I also carry what little fat this body has on my hips/abs. ugh!

I am off to read the link posted about women and low body fat, but personally I have maintained this BF for about 6 months and fele just fine.

:claplow: Whoa, I just went to your web site for the first time. You’re hard work has paid off! It’s amazing isn’t it how you really don’t appear to have a weight problem in the very early pictures, you just don’t look “toned”. Weights do amazing things for women. Your back and arms are wonderful. Having gotten where you are today I’ll bet you won’t ever want to slip back to the way you use to be. Loosing weight isn’t enough you’ve got to go that one step beyond----weights!! You certainly have!!

Thank you Carole, You look pretty amazing yourself! :tu:

I was over weight and lost 30lbs and LOTS of clothes sizes to get where I am today. I am 'considering' a tummy tuck in the winter.

I read the article about BF and leaness. Other than the ocassional sinus headache from allergies, I an never injured, sick,fatigued, nor lost my menstration. I would add that each of us is an individual and we will all feel different, good or bad, at different body fats.

I love the look of all the muscle :D if i can just get rid or all the veins that comes with being so lean, I would be so much happier. That seems to draw more attention at times, then the muscle.

I hope I look as good as you do when I get into my 6th decade!

You look GREAT CAROLE!!!

Pam


:) Hi, I’ve been following your thread for the last day or so and have found it most interesting and informative. The web sites you’ve all provided have been really enlightening, especially those concerning women and body fat percentages. I must say reading about you young ladies and your diets and general nutritional concerns have brought me a few smiles and some fond memories too. Having expressed to you my delight with this thread I must tell you that I do take exception to the one comment about the body fat and definition that we women in our sixth decade are able to achieve. I don’t know what my body fat % is and I’m certainly not the best example of all that we, us ordinary type, over 60 gals, are able to accomplish (with determination) but I am posting below two pictures of myself that look, I think, fairly “cut” for a woman of almost any age. I know a fair number of women in their sixties that look a whole lot better than I who, I am certain, wouldn’t want or expect anyone to cut them slack where working out and achieving really good results are concerned. This sounds a little “preachy” I don’t mean for it to. I just wanted to say that when you and all the other great young gals who have participated in this dialogue reach your sixties you will, no doubt, look all most as wonderful as you do right now because you’ve learned, early on, what marvelous things you can do to and for your body! Some of us older gals have learned that too!! :claplow:

I hope I look as good as you do when I get into my 6th decade!

You look GREAT CAROLE!!!

Pam

:) High praise coming from a young woman with abs like yours! I’m flattered, thanks! :tu:

It's been a long time since anyone's called me a young woman lol. Thanks for the compliment Carol!


:) High praise coming from a young woman with abs like yours! I’m flattered, thanks! :tu:

Wow, I love that photo of you leaning against the wall, Carole...

And you too Rockinmama, and you too Baxer in training--you look tough ;)

Love that look..at all ages!!!! :tu:

Wow, I love that photo of you leaning against the wall, Carole...

And you too Rockinmama, and you too Baxer in training--you look tough ;)

Love that look..at all ages!!!! :tu:

Hi Justitia, good to see you back! Wish I could claim otherwise but truth be told it’s not “tough” you see, it’s “tired”. I had just hauled my slightly aging body up to Intiwatana in Macchu Picchu and was very tired. I’m just a sea level kind of older lady!! :rolleyes:

Carole,

You look great.

Age is not an issue, ever. In fact, it used to be my excuse as a quadragenarian, until my 41st birthday, on which, by some twist of fate, I saw Merlene Ottey compete at the Athens Olympics.

At 44.

And she qualified for the next stage.

Merlene has thus destroyed my excuse and become my inspiration (I am male btw, doesn't matter). I have changed so much now, physically and mentally, I think age is irrelevant. I also feel much "younger" than a couple of years ago (if "younger" means energetic, enthusiastic etc...).

More recently, there has been the "Fit over 40" e-book by Tom Venuto and Jon Benson. In case you haven't read it already, I recommend it. And if anyone has any doubt about what kind of fitness a woman (and a person, generally) can achieve in her 60s and beyond, well... Kelly Nelson, featured in this e-book is one of the best examples.

There are pictures of her at www.agelesstraining.com. Phenomenal.

She is in her 70s...

It's all in the mind. :)

Vincent.

Hi Justitia, good to see you back! Wish I could claim otherwise but truth be told it’s not “tough” you see, it’s “tired”. I had just hauled my slightly aging body up to Intiwatana in Macchu Picchu and was very tired. I’m just a sea level kind of older lady!! :rolleyes:

Machu Picchu is quite a trip! I envy that you made it there. My husband and I never made it, as my husband got altitude sickness in Cuzco, thinking the advice of taking it easy was not for him, as he was in pretty good shape and a runner. He even drank a beer after hiking all around the village. In the meantime, I rested, drank mariujuana tea they serve tourists and tried to remain steady and still, to try to aclimatize. By nightfall the eve b/f we were to leave for Machu Pichu, my husband became painfully ill. He was actually screaming from the pain of altitude sickness. The hotel came rushing in with oxygen tanks etc. He moaned in quite a bit of pain through the rest of the night and the next day. We never left the hotel room. He didn't stop moaning until the third day when we flew back to sea level. It was the only time in the course of our marriage I actually had some wish for his death, just to relieve him of the agony he was going through; his agony was so intense. What a great form of torture altitude sickness could be. I was so relieved that he was relieved rather quickly once we got back to sea level.

You still look tough Carol ...and I still like the photo...and it was at tough thing you did. And my husband was "only" in his late 40's at the time.

Machu Picchu is quite a trip! I envy that you made it there. My husband and I never made it, as my husband got altitude sickness in Cuzco, thinking the advice of taking it easy was not for him, as he was in pretty good shape and a runner. He even drank a beer after hiking all around the village. In the meantime, I rested, drank mariujuana tea they serve tourists and tried to remain steady and still, to try to aclimatize. By nightfall the eve b/f we were to leave for Machu Pichu, my husband became painfully ill. He was actually screaming from the pain of altitude sickness. The hotel came rushing in with oxygen tanks etc. He moaned in quite a bit of pain through the rest of the night and the next day. We never left the hotel room. He didn't stop moaning until the third day when we flew back to sea level. It was the only time in the course of our marriage I actually had some wish for his death, just to relieve him of the agony he was going through; his agony was so intense. What a great form of torture altitude sickness could be. I was so relieved that he was relieved rather quickly once we got back to sea level.

You still look tough Carol ...and I still like the photo...and it was at tough thing you did. And my husband was "only" in his late 40's at the time.

:) I know what you’re talking about. Although I didn’t experience full blown altitude sickness I too had difficult in Cuzco. 11,000 ft. seemed a bit much for me and I found I fatigued easily for the first two days. However, after the first day I decided that drinking the “tea” was a bummer as I had to rely on local comfort stations (not always up to my pristine standards!) so I just cut to the chase and began chewing the coca leaves. They really seemed to help with my energy level. The degree of fitness had nothing to do with ability to acclimate to higher altitude so I really didn’t feel too much like a “wimp”! One of my traveling companions was a 72 year old woman (Albeit not your average 72 year old!!) and she did quite well with the altitude in Cuzco as well as Macchu Picchu at 7,800 or so feet. She was fit and able to maneuver in the lost city proper but took a bye on the climb up Wayna Picchu. For my part I found that I was better able to handle the altitude at 7 to 9 thousand feet but I was still grateful for my overall cardio fitness and the strength in my legs and upper body! Oh yes, and the coca leaves. :nod:

Carole,

You look great.

Age is not an issue, ever. In fact, it used to be my excuse as a quadragenarian, until my 41st birthday, on which, by some twist of fate, I saw Merlene Ottey compete at the Athens Olympics.

At 44.

And she qualified for the next stage.

Merlene has thus destroyed my excuse and become my inspiration (I am male btw, doesn't matter). I have changed so much now, physically and mentally, I think age is irrelevant. I also feel much "younger" than a couple of years ago (if "younger" means energetic, enthusiastic etc...).

More recently, there has been the "Fit over 40" e-book by Tom Venuto and Jon Benson. In case you haven't read it already, I recommend it. And if anyone has any doubt about what kind of fitness a woman (and a person, generally) can achieve in her 60s and beyond, well... Kelly Nelson, featured in this e-book is one of the best examples.

There are pictures of her at www.agelesstraining.com. Phenomenal.

She is in her 70s...

It's all in the mind. :)

Vincent.

:) Thanks for your interest and encouragement. The web site you provided was most interesting and inspirational and I will certainly look to the recommended books! Age…….we’re all in the battle it’s just some of us are in the front lines while others of us are waiting our turns! :rolleyes:

I'm at 11% and I would say my abs started to show at 14%.