While I was reading the new dietary guidelines for Americans (http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/pdf/Chapter5.pdf) (thanks Kyra for the link), I saw that the daily recommendation for protein is 10 to 35% of calories. If you eat any additional protein than this, it puts you at risk for chronic diseases including stroke and perhaps other cardiovascular diseases, type 2 diabetes and cancers. This would apply to anyone whose fruit and vegetable intake falls below the recommended 4 1/2 C of fruits and vegetables a day.

In large print: "Increased intakes of fruits vegetables, whole grains and fat free or low fat milk are likely to have important health benefits for most Americans."

Are you putting your health at risk by eating too much protein? What do you think?

no, i eat over 300g of protien a day and im fine

Statistically speaking I think the recommendations are probably correct, in the same way that having a BMI over 25 is unhealthy. I imagine most of the people who fall into the high-protein intake group probably aren't lifting weights or living otherwise healthy lifestyles which would also increase the risk of chronic disease.

Having said that, at the moment I'm aiming for 2600 calories or so a day. At 40/40/20 that means 260g protein a day, which for my LBM runs out at 1.68 g/lb. Much of what I've read that hasn't been published by a supplement company would suggest that's at best unnecessary, and may be counterproductive.

Its not the protein that increases the risk its because of the saturated fat increases that come with the meats.
Wilders

I don't think there's much evidence to support anything wrong with a high lean protein intake. Obviously, there is a vast difference between someone preparing for a bodybuilding show and eating tuna and chicken breast versus someone going out to the local fast food joint and slamming down burgers. Since most Americans do this, it would be hard to qualify the proteins and what comes with the proteins that is causing the issue.

However, I do generally agree with their recommendations. Too many people don't get enough fruit and vegetables. It is always humorous to me when people put together their menu, and their vegetable portions are the lettuce on their sandwich or the tomato sauce on their pasta. Not quite what a true veggie portion is.

Then there's the people who eliminate fruit due to an irrational fear of the sugar in it.

Finally, while I don't believe there is much documented evidence that high protein intakes (when they are lean, minimally processed proteins) causes ill health, I also don't see the need for those high intakes.

The bottom line is that high protein appears to work well for competetive bodybuilders. However, most of the people I see slamming in the high protein have nowhere near the discipline, knowledge, training experience, or other factors that it takes to be a competetive bodybuilder. They are eating the high protein because the other person does it and looks great, and don't pull together all of the other elements. For the average individual looking to be healthy and strong, I really don't see the need for excess protein. Now, if you want to look like a bodybuilder and have that physique, then I say, great. However, if you simply want to be lean and healthy and maintain a high quality of life, I think the 10 - 30 percent is fine. I rarely go over 100 grams and have not had people tell me I have a soft physique. I am not competitive quality but then I dont want to compete.

Much of the protein hype is part of the supplement industry. They do a great job of convincing average people that they can drink extra whey shakes and look like bodybuilders, and despite the fact that many people don't obtain those physiques, they still won't let go of their investment in the extra protein and unfortunately it is often at the expense of nutrients like plants and fruits that would be benefitting their health more than a shake.

Jeremy
While I was reading the new dietary guidelines for Americans (http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/pdf/Chapter5.pdf) (thanks Kyra for the link), I saw that the daily recommendation for protein is 10 to 35% of calories. If you eat any additional protein than this, it puts you at risk for chronic diseases including stroke and perhaps other cardiovascular diseases, type 2 diabetes and cancers. This would apply to anyone whose fruit and vegetable intake falls below the recommended 4 1/2 C of fruits and vegetables a day.

In large print: "Increased intakes of fruits vegetables, whole grains and fat free or low fat milk are likely to have important health benefits for most Americans."

Are you putting your health at risk by eating too much protein? What do you think?

I don't think there's much evidence to support anything wrong with a high lean protein intake.
I didn't mean to say there's a problem with a high lean protein intake. The problem comes in when you're trying to consume so much protein that there is not enough room in your diet to eat the recommended amounts of fruits, vegetables and whole grains that are necessary for optimal health.
Now, if you want to look like a bodybuilder and have that physique, then I say, great. However, if you simply want to be lean and healthy and maintain a high quality of life, I think the 10 - 30 percent is fine.

I'd go one better on you, Jeremy. If you want to be lean and healthy and maintain a high quality of life, 10 to 30 percent is better. While I don't mean to call a body builder's diet unhealthy, I think that for a non-competitive body-builder, there are several healthier diets that a person could choose, without sacrificing their muscle tone.

The information in the document I linked to does not apply to those that simply want to have a body builder physique. But for those who are working out to optimize their longevity and disease-free existence, for those who are more concerned about health than appearance, 40/40/20 is not the way to go.

I'd go one better on you, Jeremy. If you want to be lean and healthy and maintain a high quality of life, 10 to 30 percent is better. While I don't mean to call a body builder's diet unhealthy, I think that for a non-competitive body-builder, there are several healthier diets that a person could choose, without sacrificing their muscle tone.

The information in the document I linked to does not apply to those that simply want to have a body builder physique. But for those who are working out to optimize their longevity and disease-free existence, for those who are more concerned about health than appearance, 40/40/20 is not the way to go.

:) I agree!

Whoa - I'm really surprised that you (Jeremy) rarely go over 100g protein. Academic resources (with a heavy BB/weightlifting community) I've read that aren't the US gov recommendations seem to go with something like .8g protein per lb of lbm as necessary for muscle maintanence. Would you say this is wrong or that you may be an outlier in this?

Whoa - I'm really surprised that you (Jeremy) rarely go over 100g protein. Academic resources (with a heavy BB/weightlifting community) I've read that aren't the US gov recommendations seem to go with something like .8g protein per lb of lbm as necessary for muscle maintanence. Would you say this is wrong or that you may be an outlier in this?

I actually believe that it's stated .8g for the average person, or 1-2.0gm per kg/wt for athletes and exercisers. It's interesting how kg's convert to lbs. on a 1 to 1 ratio when it comes to protein intake. :lol:

I think the problem with all the dietary guidelines is that they also suggest different levels of activities as well. They trying to create a "food pyramid" that covers EVERYONE, but unfortunetly, dietary needs change when you take into consideration the activities someone engages in.

I think it's possible that the lower protein reccomendations are for Joe - sitting on a couch, you ain't making me exercise - schmoe, and when you get someone who is seriously weight training (not doing 100 reps of 2 lbs bicep curls) or really pushing their cardio fitness, that the needs change - just as the amount of water reccomended would.

I also think that part of their aim is to put a halt to the excessive high protein/high fat diets out there that people are on - knocking back pork rhinds and thinking it's healthfood, steaks and ribs galore - that kind of thing - trying to keep non-lean sources to a minimum.

If you delve a little further into the scientific studies and guidelines they have backing up certain aspects of the research and dietary suggestions, you will see some of this noted.

The problem is that nutrition has either gotten way too complicated, or just convoluted. In the end, you have to do what makes YOU feel that you are at your best. We are all different variations of the human body - what affects one person one way, won't affect another person the same way. It's all about finding your perfect balance, and the best way to achieve that is through your own experimentation and research. Every day they discover something new about food,nutritents and the body. In 10 yrs, the food reccomendations will change again. All you really have is yourself, and a basic knowledge of what is healthy now.

I think it's possible that the lower protein reccomendations are for Joe - sitting on a couch, you ain't making me exercise - schmoe, and when you get someone who is seriously weight training (not doing 100 reps of 2 lbs bicep curls) or really pushing their cardio fitness, that the needs change - just as the amount of water reccomended would.

The lower protein recommendations* are not for Joe Schmoe. They are for anyone who wants to minimize their chances of developing life threatening diseases.

I have seen no studies that suggest that higher protein leads to increased health benefits, and plenty that indicate that higher fruit and vegetable and low fat dairy consumption will lead to improved health. I haven't done the math, but it sounds impossible to me to get the recommended nine servings of fruits and vegetables, at least 3 servings of whole grains, and 3 servings of low fat dairy while still maintaining 40% of calories from protein.

I'm curious about how close "high-protein" eaters come to meeting their daily nutrient requirements (under reports on fitday) versus high-carb eaters.

No doubt that a power lifter, or even someone who is training for a competition which requires scrutiny under bright lighting has different dietary needs. But a person who is just weight training to improve muscle tone, increase her strength, and maintain a healthy weight needs no additional protein than what is recommended in the dietary guidelines.

*Institute of Medicine Recommendations for females 19 to 30
56 g of protein (0.5 g of protein per pound of body weight if we assume 120 pounds, or .4 g if you assume 150 pounds)
10-35% of calories, or 200-700 calories from protein of a 2,000 calorie diet (50-175 g)
In the end, you have to do what makes YOU feel that you are at your best. We are all different variations of the human body - what affects one person one way, won't affect another person the same way. It's all about finding your perfect balance, and the best way to achieve that is through your own experimentation and research. You're right, Kyra. The bottom line is to collect as much information as you can and eat and healthfully as possible given your present nutritional knowledge.

The maximum intake I've read as practical as suggest by Dr. Peter Lemon, a well respected authority on protein who has studied it for decades. His higher end recommendations are 1.4 - 1.6 grams per kilogram of weight, which is 0.6 to 0.73 grams per pound. At 200 pounds, that puts me at 120 grams on the lower end. Remember, though, these are his HIGHER end recommendations. Who is in the higher end? Elite soccer athletes who train for hours per day.

I'm not fooling anyone into thinking I train like that. Most people go on recommendations posed by athletes who train for hours on end, have access to advanced therapeutic modalities for recovery, and who are often augmented with recovery by anabolic steroids. This is hardly what we do.

In fact, like it or not, no matter how high intensity your cardio is or how heavy you lift, most of the people who post here are sedentary compared to elite athletes. You might spend 1 - 1.5 hours for 5 - 6 days per week training intensely. Some athletes are closer to 4 - 6 hours per day and some have cycles where they train every day. That is a major difference in requirements.

So at 100 grams, that puts me well within a comfortable range.

Also, I don't just limit my research to trials in the US where most of the studies are sponsored by companies looking for the right outcome to promote their product (especially protein products). Of particular interest to me is the decades of research conducted by the World Health Organization on protein requirements. They have a vested interest in finding out the optimal way to promote lean mass retention to produce inexpensive means for nourishing impoverished third world countries. In order to find the most effective products to ship, they have examined over a century of research related to nutrients and protein and lean mass and other factors. You can go through these very detailed, technical studies here:

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID07E/uid07e00.htm#Contents

What you'll find in a nutshell is that, when it comes to maintaining or gaining lean mass, the body is very efficient.

For example, people who keep calories the same but increase percentage of calories from protein have similar results to people who keep protein the same but increase overall calories. This means that simply increasing calories, even if by carbs, you can improve lean mass a bit. I say a bit because they also show that the body is very effective at adapting to intake. For example, if you consistently take in a low amount of protein, the body becomes extremely efficient at extracting those amino acids and using the carbohydrate/fats for energy. If you switch to a high protein diet, the body becomes extremel inefficient at extracting amino acids and ends up oxidizing (burning for energy) most of the protein. The average person turns ove a few dozen grams of protein per day, a trainee may turn over a few more, but the rest is just fluff - used for hormone production, deaminated and oxidized for energy, etc.

The other issue is that most studies done on protein are done on average individuals - people who have a horrendous diet, for example, the SAD (standard American diet) that is woefully lacking in nutrieints. Studies on vegetarians and vegans show that those individuals actually utilize the proteins/amino acids more efficiently and require less intake (same thing with calcium) despite the attempt by the industry to classify these as poor protein sources to push protein products. The tests for bioavailability, etc are based on fasted states and not on how the protein is assimilated in the context of a real world situation where other nutrients and cofactors (healthy fats, nutrients, etc) are being introduced as well.

Having said all of that ... considering I've averaged that intake of protein for several years now, short of small periods for example the few weeks I did a higher protein diet recently, I've maintained my muscle mass and strength and am way more muscular and lean than the average American. So obviously it's not an issue for me personally. So then I go out and interview people like Mike Mahler who has a vegan diet and then Rob Cooper who lost 300 pound and has an awesome physique (and has eaten more like a vegetarian for several years) and feel there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the protein requirements are a little bit inflated.

Don't get me wrong. If you want a physique like a bodybuilder or to go on stage, then I do believe the protein is beneficial. I have yet to meet a competitive bodybuilder who doesn't take in additional protein. However, what blows me away is this prevalent assumption (perhaps due to marketing) that if that protein works for them, then we should take it, too, to gain muscle mass ... but yet most people train nowhere near is intensely or focused or even have the knowledge of how to manipulate the nutrition like competitive bodybuilders do. The majority of my clients are looking to improve their health and feel good about themselves, not get up on a stage, so we explore their nutrition and find out what they respond to. Some like high protein and feel great with that ... so good! Others get nauseous or don't like protein powders, etc, and want to be on a more vegetarian diet. I say, don't sweat it ... get balance and get a spectrum of nutrients and eat how you enjoy to eat and what feels good (using healthy, minimally processed foods).

I'm turning into a rambler here so I'll cut this short but this is a little of where my position comes from.

Jeremy

Whoa - I'm really surprised that you (Jeremy) rarely go over 100g protein. Academic resources (with a heavy BB/weightlifting community) I've read that aren't the US gov recommendations seem to go with something like .8g protein per lb of lbm as necessary for muscle maintanence. Would you say this is wrong or that you may be an outlier in this?

Wow, I'm gonna lower my protein intake and see if I can do it without losing muscle mass - from 225g to 125g for the next month.

So Jeremy, you got to looking like you did in your avatar by consuming 100g-125g of protein? I think your physique is impressive, and lately I was also wondering about my protein intake. I've lowered it to 200g a day, give or take, from 260g/day. If it is indeed possible to lower your protein intake and still allow your muscle recovery optimum amount of protein, what would you say is an appropriate split? Or perhaps a set amount of protein and variable amount of fat and carbs, depending on your bodyweight and training status?

isnt the food pyramid off as well! maybe the govt doesnt have a clue as to what the hell they're talking about!

adam

Follow this link:

http://www.bodyblog.com/Public.asp?id=507

And you'll see my 12 weeks progress on a lower protein nutrition plan. The diary entries are in reverse chronological order, and you can see virtually every single day that I ate. I broke all of the rules ... I consumed 300 grams of carbs, ate chocolate, drank wine (both in moderation), and did not have a high protein intake, yet I shredded 30 pounds in 12 weeks and have no issues with the physique I built. Could it have been more muscular had I had more protein? Perhaps, but I couldn't care less ... I'm not in it for the biggest muscles, I'm in it to feel great and live healthy.

Jeremy

So Jeremy, you got to looking like you did in your avatar by consuming 100g-125g of protein? I think your physique is impressive, and lately I was also wondering about my protein intake. I've lowered it to 200g a day, give or take, from 260g/day. If it is indeed possible to lower your protein intake and still allow your muscle recovery optimum amount of protein, what would you say is an appropriate split? Or perhaps a set amount of protein and variable amount of fat and carbs, depending on your bodyweight and training status?

when you are figuring out the amount of protein in your diet, do you count what is in the nuts, or the the bread, oatmeal? or just the meat?


lindsay

when you are figuring out the amount of protein in your diet, do you count what is in the nuts, or the the bread, oatmeal? or just the meat?


lindsay

I think you really need to count everything to get a real and accurate sense. For example, 3/4 of a cup of raw oats has 10 grams of protein in it. A cup of Kashi GoLean has 13 grams of protein! So if you ate both in the same day, and didn't count the protein in them, that's 23 grams less than you actually ate.

Jeremy, it looks like you even put on a little muscle on your lower protein diet while cutting. You said you maintained, so I guess it just looks like it because of your much lower body fat from your starting point. Anyhow, good work! You're proof that it can be done with what most here would consider a fairly low protein diet.

Follow this link:

http://www.bodyblog.com/Public.asp?id=507

And you'll see my 12 weeks progress on a lower protein nutrition plan. The diary entries are in reverse chronological order, and you can see virtually every single day that I ate. I broke all of the rules ... I consumed 300 grams of carbs, ate chocolate, drank wine (both in moderation), and did not have a high protein intake, yet I shredded 30 pounds in 12 weeks and have no issues with the physique I built. Could it have been more muscular had I had more protein? Perhaps, but I couldn't care less ... I'm not in it for the biggest muscles, I'm in it to feel great and live healthy.

Jeremy

Would there be an effect on what has been said above if the person who was eating on the diet was a teenager? Is it more important to take in more complex carbohydrates, and is it damaging to take in higher amounts of protein, if you are still growing?

isnt the food pyramid off as well! maybe the govt doesnt have a clue as to what the hell they're talking about!

adam

Its been said before - but if you follow the food pyramid - you will start to look like the food pyramid.....

I'd much rather be a tapered V than a bulbous pyramid (^)