In this thread, I plan to share my musings as I train using HIT principles. My initial trial for this style of training will last two weeks. I invite anyone else who may be interested (and who is new to HIT) to try it out with me and share your experiences here. Misery loves company, right? :lol:

I have recently become intrigued with this form of training, and conveniently so; my training has become quite static and I need a change of pace. Rtestes, this is in part your doing, and as I finish each set with an agonizingly painful attempted partial rep, I will curse your name. :mad:

After reading a little Mike Mentzer, and other snippets from HIT advocates, I read Ellington Darden's new HIT book. There is enough logic behind the principles of HIT that I must give it a fair shake.

So what does this have to do with ditching your workout partner? Well, I have recently acquired something of a protege in a new trainee who asked me for some direction with his workouts. So being the nice guy that I am :rolleyes: , I told him he could train with me. I introduced him to my higher volume, Max-OT-style workout. The problem was, this guy was a non-stop talker, he was late to the gym (if he showed up at all), and was lacking in overall intensity and dedication. I am happy to help someone out, but as I told him, I take my training pretty seriously; it's not a Tupperware party.

I wasn't really trying to ditch the guy, but when I learned about HIT, I knew I had to give it a shot. This morning I showed up to the gym 20 minutes later than my normally scheduled time, as the HIT workouts are shorter than my previous routine. As I predicted, my partner was just arriving. I told him that I am changing my workout, and it would be a big change of pace and intensity. I couldn't explain it all to him right then, but if he picked up Darden's book and studied it, he was welcome to join me if he was interested.

So, I am rid of him, at least for now. This might sound cruel, but I am not a personal trainer and everyone needs to take responsibility for his own program. If he reads the book and becomes truly motivated to give what it takes, I will gladly welcome him back as a serious workout partner.

For me to consider the HIT trial to be a success, I will need to increase in strength and size while keeping the fat in check. Losing fat would be preferred, of course.

I will be doing this while eating around 2200-2300 clean calories per day. For me, this is below estimated maintenance levels. However, this is in line with what Darden thinks will produce some significant musclular growth.

So now, it is time to:

:mad: BRING ON THE PAIN! :mad:

Day 1 - Beginning HIT Routine 1

I can think of only one word to accurately describe this morning's workout - grueling.

For those of you unfamiliar with this style of training, here is the gist of it: One set of each exercise to positive failure, no more than 12 sets per workout, about one minute rest between sets, and two-three workouts per week. In my case, each rep averages out to 4 seconds positive movement, 4 seconds eccentric. I am going for 8-12 reps per set. HIT workouts follow a particular order of exercises to maximize efficient training of larger and smaller muscle groups. You must apply correct principles of intensity, concentration, duration, form, efficiency, and recovery. There is no additional cardio, per se.

I don't have my workout sheet with me, so I'll just give a brief synopsis:

ohhh.......MAAMAAA! (said in the voice of Seinfeld's Kramer when riddled with kidney stones)

Ellington Darden suggests just doing 8 of the initial 12 exercises for the first couple workouts. Approaching this workout, I knew it would be tough, but I was pretty sure I would get through all 12 exercises. I am used to going to perceived failure on all of my working sets, and this is just one set each. WRONG. I got through 9 exercises and was so spent that Darden's suggestion suddenly sounded like a great idea.

I started with a set each of lying leg curl, quad extension, and leg press. I have never felt a burn in my quads like I did this morning. I had to use my arms to support myself after getting up from each machine, and reaching down to pick up my clipboard was a joke. Almost four hours later, my legs are still shaking slightly. Going to failure at a slow tempo after a longer time under tension is completely different from what I have experienced before. It was truly intense. I didn't puke, but almost....my mouth was very dry, and I could taste and feel it coming. Maybe next workout I will toss my innards, yay! :drool:

Then I moved on to the upper body exercises, with similar experiences on many of them. There were a couple exercises I didn't take to failure, due to improper weight selection. Other exercises didn't get quite the time under tension they needed, because of too much weight.

I did fairly well at keeping the rest periods quick, but there are some challenges with that. For example, setting up the bench press in a power rack (since I'm not using a spotter) takes some time, and I need to plan for that. As I go through this routine a couple times, I will find more efficient ways to set up the exercises. It is difficult setting up your next exercise when you just want to sprawl out on the floor because of your last one. :nod:

The things I want to improve in Wednesday's workout:

- Better weight selection on some exercises
- Go to positive failure on every set
- Improved mental game: focus! Especially on exercises later in the routine.
- Smoother repetitions on some exercises
- Quicker (more efficient) transition between exercises
- Complete at least 10 exercises
- Keep my face more relaxed

Now, I will rest until Wednesday.

Day 1 - Beginning HIT Routine 1

I can think of only one word to accurately describe this morning's workout - grueling.

Ellington Darden suggests just doing 8 of the initial 12 exercises for the first couple workouts. I got through 9 exercises and was so spent that Darden's suggestion suddenly sounded like a great idea.

Then I moved on to the upper body exercises, with similar experiences on many of them. There were a couple exercises I didn't take to failure, due to improper weight selection. Other exercises didn't get quite the time under tension they needed, because of too much weight.


The things I want to improve in Wednesday's workout:

- Better weight selection on some exercises
- Improved mental game: focus! Especially on exercises later in the routine.
- Smoother repetitions on some exercises
- Quicker (more efficient) transition between exercises
- Comlete at least 10 exercises
- Keep my face more relaxed

Now, I will rest until Wednesday.


Welcome aboard! I am glad to see you taking it up and hope you will see full success. The logic is there and results can be, too. I will be rooting you on, all the way. :claphigh:

On the exercises you didn't have right weights: You should have taken them to failure, you might have exceeded 12 or you could have failed before 8, you just adjust weight, next workout.

edit: think about a 6 week trial, unless you see a complete no-go, I don't think you will.

Thanks Rtestes, I appreciate your reply. I am certain I will see improvement, if only because it is a new form of training that I'm not used to. I do suspect there is something to HIT that will bring better results for me than other forms of training. It just makes sense.

Yeah, I took most of the exercises to failure today. But there were a couple exercises that were new to me, like the straight-arm dumbbell pullover. I chose 35 pounds, and I was focusing on form. It felt like I could have gone forever, I think I did 20 reps before I moved on. I will fail on all of my exercises Wednesday. (That sounded strange, :lol: )

In the cases where the weight was too heavy, I did go to failure. Bench press, for example. I failed on the 8th rep, but I think I could have worked my chest better with a little more time under tension. So I will lower the weight just a little for my next session. Maybe 5-10 pounds.

I am sure I will do this for a few months. I just mentioned 2 weeks because I have a vacation coming up mid-April, and I don't know just how good the weight room will be. I will adapt, though.

Thanks for the suggestions. If you have any more, I would love to hear them. :tucool:


Welcome aboard! I am glad to see you taking it up and hope you will see full success. The logic is there and results can be, too. I will be rooting you on, all the way. :claphigh:

On the exercises you didn't have right weights: You should have taken them to failure, you might have exceeded 12 or you could have failed before 8, you just adjust weight, next workout.

edit: think about a 6 week trial, unless you see a complete no-go, I don't think you will.

Yeah, I took most of the exercises to failure today. But there were a couple exercises that were new to me, like the straight-arm dumbbell pullover. I chose 35 pounds, and I was focusing on form. It felt like I could have gone forever, I think I did 20 reps before I moved on. I will fail on all of my exercises Wednesday. (That sounded strange, :lol: )

In the cases where the weight was too heavy, I did go to failure. Bench press, for example. I failed on the 8th rep, but I think I could have worked my chest better with a little more time under tension. So I will lower the weight just a little for my next session. Maybe 5-10 pounds.

5-10 pounds or 5-10%. Most changes in weight for me is 10 lbs and even 20 on some compound weights. The keeping relaxed is difficult along with the cadence. It takes time to change bad habits. Be sure and get measurements, BF%, etc for a start point.

this sounds really interesting leftnut. I'm looking forward to following your progress. Maybe I will give HIT a try when I complete my current challenge.

oh and my lats are still killing me three days after my pullup experiment. I'm loving it.

Yes, thank you Rtestes. I keep good records, so I have all my starting stats.

You have been at this for a while. Do you still increase your weights on a regular basis?

Also, how do you approach your nutrition program and caloric intake levels? If you were to use the Katch-McArdle formula, how would you estimate an activity level for someone doing three HIT workouts (12 exercises each) per week?

I must admit, it is hard to get used to the idea of not doing the cardio. I understand the logic behind it, but as you say, old habits die hard. I am not doing cardio today, and it feels pretty strange, like I am slacking off or something. But I know I am letting my body recover from yesterday. And I suppose it can provide some extra motivation to work as hard as possible in every set; if I exhaust my muscles enough, my body will be expending enough resources to repair and build those muscles back up that the cardio becomes completely unnecessary (damaging, actually). I just need to keep reminding myself that.

Hi gravityhomer! Check out this thread (http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/showthread.php?t=11048) for some good links on HIT. From what I have seen so far, I think Mike Mentzer and Ellington Darden explain the principles the best. I think Darden has the best application for real-world folks who aren't freakish roid-saturated bodybuilders.

Yeah, that pull-up routine is a good one. In yesterday's workout, one of my exercises was the weighted chin-up. I am thinking of switching that to weighted negative-only chin-ups tomorrow. Perhaps I will alternate between the two every other workout.

this sounds really interesting leftnut. I'm looking forward to following your progress. Maybe I will give HIT a try when I complete my current challenge.

oh and my lats are still killing me three days after my pullup experiment. I'm loving it.

You have been at this for a while. Do you still increase your weights on a regular basis?

Also, how do you approach your nutrition program and caloric intake levels? If you were to use the Katch-McArdle formula, how would you estimate an activity level for someone doing three HIT workouts (12 exercises each) per week?

I must admit, it is hard to get used to the idea of not doing the cardio. I understand the logic behind it, but as you say, old habits die hard. I am not doing cardio today, and it feels pretty strange, like I am slacking off or something. But I know I am letting my body recover from yesterday. And I suppose it can provide some extra motivation to work as hard as possible in every set; if I exhaust my muscles enough, my body will be expending enough resources to repair and build those muscles back up that the cardio becomes completely unnecessary (damaging, actually). I just need to keep reminding myself that.

I have been lifting on and off for 50 years. Not 50 years solid. There were times work, circunstances kept me away. I always drifted back. The same with HIT type workouts. I read some of Jones's articles in 60-70s and applied his ideas to my training.

In the 80s I worked out on Nautilus for about 12 years, HIT style. Often I would fall back on supersets, 3 sets of 8-12,and etc. inbetween but always full body. I went back on a steady HIT diet about 1.5 years ago, when I picked up a Weider Crossbow for home and about 4 years ago I decided to go back to fully equipted gym.

All that was to say, my periods of laziness, along with age, would cause me to fall back in strength. So many times, I would be building back up. Example: In January, I was at 90 on my leg extension, now at 185lb. I might do more or less than somone, the only one that matters is my Grandkids, I have to lift more than they do. :D The answer is I am increasing weights since I don't save myself for follow-on sets. The person that knows it is the first set of curls of many, always holds back. Weights are relative, we all should lift at our own best capabilities, you can't ask for more.

I am conservative, I use a 1.65 activity level. I am not that active except for workouts.

Yes, it is great logic on the cardio. The cardio industry has done a good job selling it. It is just a calorie burner. As you will see, HIT will build up your heart rate. That was proven with the West Point studies, even Dr. Cooper of Aerobics fame agreed. The use of machines can decrease wait times and you might see rest times go down to 30 sec. My grandson and I whip through in about 23 minutes every time and we always throw in a random 13th exercise, we choose after completetion of basic 12. :tucool:

23 minutes, wow! I am sure my workout was about 40 minutes this morning, and I don't think it was because my rest periods were too long. I moved right through each exercise, only taking the necessary time to set up the weights. I am going pretty slow on my reps. Also, some of my exercises were in the high rep ranges today, despite raising the weights. I will adjust for that again on Friday.

, some of my exercises were in the high rep ranges today, despite raising the weights. I will adjust for that again on Friday.

When you get your 8 rep workout weight homed in, you will be right on target for the 8-12 rep range plan. From that point you will be able to try to add reps and add weight after 12 reps. always try to progress.

Strength goes up, along with size.

Day 2 - Beginning HIT Workout 1B

This morning's workout was better than Monday's. The intensity was higher, and I completed 11 exercises. I went to failure on every set, with two possible exceptions which I will explain. I felt an amazingly intense burn on almost every exercise. :tucool: Some of my weight adjustments were right on, others still left me doing 20+ reps before I failed.

I replaced two exercises (weighted chin-up and DB overhead tricep press) in this routine with two new compound movements (weighted negative chin-up and weighted negative dip). I am considering whether to make them permanent changes, or to use them and the prior exercises in and A/B scheme (by doing two of the exercises in workout A, the other two in workout B, and alternating workouts ABA BAB).

The weighted negative chins and negative dips were the two exercises that were difficult for me to judge for failure. I followed Darden's instructions, and stopped when I could not control the downward motion for more than 2-3 seconds. So I guess if I did what he said, that is the right technique and would be considered failure. It is more tricky to judge because it is not a concentric movement. They are great exercises, though, and I will definintely be incorporating them into my workout plan.

For my next workout, I will concentrate on:

- Complete 12 exercises, each to failure
- Relax my face (didn't do so well with that today)
- Continue to improve focus and mental strength (determination - fight for that last rep!)
- Increase weight substantially on negative chins and dips, and straight-arm DB pullovers

Also....Rtestes, what do you do for abs? Even if I do slow floor crunches with added weight, I can get way too many reps. This might be ok, but I would like to be more time-efficient and keep the reps lower. And at the end of a tough workout, I would prefer this set to be not too long. Maybe use a machine?

Also....Rtestes, what do you do for abs? Even if I do slow floor crunches with added weight, I can get way too many reps. This might be ok, but I would like to be more time-efficient and keep the reps lower. And at the end of a tough workout, I would prefer this set to be not too long. Maybe use a machine?

How about decline situps with a high angle and holding a weight plate.

Yeah! In the recent past, I have just done the different flavors of floor crunches and tried to keep my hips out of my ab exercises.

But the more I think of it, the decline situps may be perfect. It is only one slow set, and I'm sure I can choose a weight that will induce overload in 8-12 reps.

Thanks man! :)

Leftnut, I'm interested in following your progress using these principles. A few questions, and I apoligize if you've already answered them:

1. Will you always be hitting legs first or will you be varying the order of the exercises?

2. Will you stick to full body workouts throughout the experiment or do you plan any splitting?

3. You're now using 4 seconds for the positive and negative correct? What were you doing before by your estimate? Does it feel superslow compared to how you were lifting?

4. Are you going to be using a set schedule like M/W/F or every third day?

5. What is Darden's philosophy with regard to squats/deads? It seems that he must not put the kind of value on them that everyone else does since the leg workout is curls, extensions, and then leg presses.

6. Will your diet be changing at all during this?

I'm interested in seeing how you do on this since I've tried the full body workout myself but didn't stick with it that long. I have a feeling that the system would be ideal for someone who has virtually no free time since you could conceivably do two or three 25 minute workouts per week and be at 100% capacity.

Oh and I wouldn't worry about your workout partner-I find that you can't get out of the gym fast enough when you have a partner unless they're totally in tune to your workout and preferably they would be on the same program. Otherwise the rests are too long, they want to talk too much, and they detract from overall focus.


:gl: :bb: :db: :read: :flex:

Hi Nico! Thanks for stopping by.

1. The rule of thumb is to move from larger muscle groups to the smaller ones. In every suggested HIT full-body routine I have seen so far, legs come first. The last exercises are often forearms, calves, and abs. I am going to stick to the usual protocol.

2. I will be doing full-body workouts exclusively, no splits. I think it makes sense to exhaust the muscles, and then have days of exclusive recovery. I also think there is more of a cardiovascular benefit with the FBWO's.

3. Yes--4 up, 4 down. They say to think of the entire set as one continuously smooth rep. It is hard. I probably tend to err on the side of taking longer, especially if an exercise has a long range of motion. On negative chins and dips, it's 8-10 seconds, all eccentric. It is much slower than I have done on higher volume workouts. My typical cadence used to be about 1 up, 2 down.

4. MWF, for now. If I am having recovery problems, I may need to add a day of rest before the next workout.

5. I don't know all of Darden's opinions about squats and deads, but he does incorporate them into his suggested routines. In his new book, he only mentions SLD's. I decided to start with some of his suggested beginning routines (with a couple tweaks), and do the leg presses. They're easier on the back, and probably a little safer as I get used to the intensity involved.

6. My diet isn't really changing. I'm doing about 2200 Kcals per day. I am trying to cut a little fat or tread water until vacation in 2 weeks. Dr. Darden had one of his subjects (who is larger than me) on 2300/day, and he gained tonz of muscle in a couple weeks. I'm keeping my protein intake up around 200 grams per day, and hitting 15-20% calories from fat.

It's about 5 hours since I finished my workout this morning, and I'm still shaking slightly. :spaz: Typing is hard. Must have been a good workout. :D

Thanks for your interest.

Also....Rtestes, what do you do for abs? Even if I do slow floor crunches with added weight, I can get way too many reps. This might be ok, but I would like to be more time-efficient and keep the reps lower. And at the end of a tough workout, I would prefer this set to be not too long. Maybe use a machine?

I use a hammer crunch machine, use 50lbs, I do them slow 10/5 count, when I feel failure near, I cheat and do burns, fast partials. At home I do 10/5 crunch on one of those AB trainers. I will do reverse crunchs and knee pullups on a stand sometimes. With abs intensity lies with cadence/weights. Reps for calves and Abs, I usually go 12-16 if I don't do super slow.

Great, thank you. I will probably use a machine to speed up setup time. I really appreciate your input in this thread.

I use a hammer crunch machine, use 50lbs, I do them slow 10/5 count, when I feel failure near, I cheat and do burns, fast partials. At home I do 10/5 crunch on one of those AB trainers. I will do reverse crunchs and knee pullups on a stand sometimes. With abs intensity lies with cadence/weights. Reps for calves and Abs, I usually go 12-16 if I don't do super slow.

Hey Leftnut, cool thread. Back at the end of last December I started doing the Ironman's "Positions of Flexion" workout program, which Rtestes told me was akin to HIT. For the first 8 weeks, I did the full body workouts, but more on the range of 16-20 sets, starting with squats or deadlifts and working my way down to delts. The workouts were 3x per week, 2 days were the same and the third was full body with different exercises. I also started eating around 3,000 cals per day, slowly ramped up over about 3 weeks. Anyway, I saw some really amazing gains during that time between December and March. It really kicked in for me around the end of January and during February, I was adding weight to almost all of my exercises on a weekly basis. I've never seen such gains, due in part to my eating, but also due to the program. So I can vouch for the effectiveness of the full body workout, it's pretty amazing.

In March I switched over to light/heavy days, where each workout is a 2/3 body workout and the 1/3 part that doesn't get included is rotated per workout. It's also very effective and I think it fits my current cutting plan a little better.

One thing I wanted to add... make sure that you're eating enough while doing this workout. I would not recommend doing HIT while doing any kind of cut, I know rtestes will disagree with me on this. Because you are working the same large muscle groups to failure 3x per week, you need to be eating enough to ensure muscle recovery in 2 days time. I just don't think it can be done on a caloric deficit, and I think the results would be bad.

I'd also advise against stopping the cardio. I did this during my bulk and it was the dumbest thing I ever did. Sure, it really just comes down to burning some calories, but there's something about keeping up with the cardio that makes you feel like you've got a complete program. I started getting lazy thoughts when I ditched the cardio. When I restarted in March, it really changed my outlook on the program as a whole. It's more than just exercise, it's psychologically keeping your head in the game. Anyway, you may be different, but that's my take on it as someone who tried ditching it, thinking it would give me some kind of results. Just something to tuck in the back of your head in case you ever start getting those lazy thoughts, too.

Good luck on your program!

I agree with slush_puppy on the cardio point. I've been slacking off on mine and I feel like even though I'm lifting there's this huge hole in my program and that I'm going to pay the price. If it can be done in the early morning I don't think it interferes much with bulking but it adds so much to overall athleticism.

Guys, probably wrong place to discuss this. But cutting and bulking are activities that when done right are short in time. If effective programs are used, most cuts can be done in 6-12 weeks if you aren't really obese. The same with bulks. You should spend the better part of your time in a maintenance mode.

The maintenance mode is the perfect time for one to throw in such aspects as cardio, stretching, sports and etc. You are neither trying to change your body placing it under the stress of losing or adding weight. You can afford the extra activities as well as backing off on frequency of workouts. You could change HIT to twice a week or less.

There is a great deal of logic to that view. I picture left nut is less than 12 weeks away from maintenance.

Slush and Nico, thanks for your insight. I have thought a lot about the cardio thing.

As you probably know, Ell Darden and the other HIT'ers claim that the cardio is an inefficient means of ridding the body of fat, and robs the body of resources needed for recovery. It makes sense, and I would like to follow that advice for a while in association with this training method. I just don't see myself pounding my legs in any form of cardio the day after one of these workouts. It instinctively (and logically) seems counterproductive to this type of training.

I am tracking caloric intake and measurements daily. At the moment, my waist measures < 30.25" around the navel and < 31" at the belt line. If I start to see a change for the worse, I will adjust accordingly.

I am currently eating around 2200 calories per day. With the absense of cardio, this is probably pretty close to maintenance levels for me and I may be able to build a little muscle while burning a little fat. I may raise that, but I am watching for a week to see what happens. As I get better at pushing my muscles to failure, it will be more important to be sure my caloric intake is high enough. Also, there are several experts (including Darden) who seem to think that excess calories are not an absolute requirement for building muscle. The only way I can find out the right levels for me are by keeping records and adjusting. The upcoming vacation throws a wrench in that to some degree, but that's ok.


I have thought a lot about this. What it boils down to for me--what type of athlete do I want to look like? No offence to the runners, bikers, or swimmers, but I don't want to look like any of them (except possibly some world-class sprinters). I want to look like the fitness models (think bowflex models). To do that, I need to add some muscle mass and lose a little fat. And probably in that order.

It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of trying a new form of training and doing my best not to short-circuit it by adding exercise that is not recommended.

Having said that, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. :p If I were to add any cardio-type exercise at all, it would probably be some occasional high-intensity jumproping for short periods of time. I wouldn't mind looking like a ripped boxer, either. ;)

It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your program so I would never want to derail someone from following their plan.

I agree that doing cardio given the other exercise would tend to slightly hinder your progress in adding muscle mass.

It seems that there are three ways of viewing the effect of exercise and diet.

1. Effect on appearance
2. Effect on health and 'feeling good'
3. Effect on sporting performance

If you are most concerned with #1, like a professional bodybuilder or model or anyone primarily aiming to change their outward appearance, whether for themself or others, than you should pursue the path that will lead you there.

In no way would I want to knock working out for vanity's sake, since I would be as guilty as anyone else.

Since I ran x-country and long distance track for several years, I can attest that large doses of cardio are not the route to the fitness model physique.

To make an analogy that I know you would get, I wouldn't expect someone who wants to play like Coltrane to spend half of their practice time playing scales, it would leave that much less time for what they want NOW.

So stick to your plan as you've researched it and let us know how it goes. And I wasn't aware of Darden's take on cardio. I guess the HIT crowd doesn't like HIIT, which would confuse the hell out of a lot of noobs on this forum.

so continue with the :db: :read: :bb:

It seems that there are three ways of viewing the effect of exercise and diet.

1. Effect on appearance
2. Effect on health and 'feeling good'
3. Effect on sporting performance



Just by way of clarification, I don't necessarily place my highest priority on the superficial. I don't think the three effects you mentioned need to be mutually exclusive. My current priorities are probably in the order of 2, 1, 3. The thing is, there's not much more I can really do to improve on my general health at the moment--besides continuing to eat right, exercise, and rest. If #1 ever started to affect #2 in a negative way, I would stop and re-evaluate my program.



So stick to your plan as you've researched it and let us know how it goes. And I wasn't aware of Darden's take on cardio. I guess the HIT crowd doesn't like HIIT, which would confuse the hell out of a lot of noobs on this forum.



One way to think about this from the HIT point of view:

A proper HIT workout throroughly exercises the muscles and the cardiovascular system. It is performing HIIT and intense weight training simultaneously. I am finding it is also great exercise for the mind (willpower and determination despite pain).

Thanks again for your input.

BTW, you know what Coltrane was constantly doing between sets, right? He was running scales. :nod: Often barely audible, he would softly but quickly run scale after scale in a corner or hallway. He spent unbelievable amounts of time studying and practicing scales from Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns. :tucool:

BTW, you know what Coltrane was constantly doing between sets, right? He was running scales. :nod: Often barely audible, he would softly but quickly run scale after scale in a corner or hallway. He spent unbelievable amounts of time studying and practicing scales from Nicolas Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns. :tucool:
I didn't know that about Coltrane. I'm gonna check out that Slonimsky book. I guess I should've used Bird as an example-I've heard that he sold his horn several times to buy smack and would show up to a gig and have to play some Japanese plastic sax. He made that plastic horn sound pretty good though :lol:

I didn't know that about Coltrane. I'm gonna check out that Slonimsky book. I guess I should've used Bird as an example-I've heard that he sold his horn several times to buy smack and would show up to a gig and have to play some Japanese plastic sax. He made that plastic horn sound pretty good though :lol:

The Grafton Plastic Saxophone (http://www.saxgourmet.com/grafton.htm)

I don't endorse the owner of the above site, he ripped me off for about $3K. But the info is good.

Workout 3 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

Great workout this morning. I increased in reps and/or weight on about half of my exercises. On most of the exercises that I didn't increase in reps, I completed more of a partial rep than last workout. I almost got an additional rep on the leg press, but not quite...I was just an inch or two away. Same with the overhead barbell press.

On a couple of the exercises, my legs or other body parts will sometimes shake involuntarily. It's not a huge deal on most exercises, but this morning it stopped me 1 or 2 reps short of failure on my calf presses. I was doing calves with 495 pounds on the seated leg press machine. Around rep 8 or so, my legs started shaking pretty hard. By rep 14, I was starting to lose control and worried about injuring my knees. I completed rep 15 and stopped. As much as I like doing calves on the leg press machine, I may need to switch to seated calf raises. My hams/quads get worked first thing in the workout, and calves are almost last. I know I really blasted my legs today, because I almost couldn't get up from the leg machines after completing my leg sets.

I decided to make the negative dips and chins a part of my regular routine for at least a few weeks. They are great exercises. I think the dip is a better exercise than the DB tricep extension, and the negative chins have got my lats, biceps, and abs burning.

My weight selection is still too low for the lying straight-arm DB extensions. I failed on the 19th rep. Same with the negative dip, I got 18. So I will adjust accordingly.

I did all 12 exercises today, and was finished in 40 minutes.

Goals for next workout:

- Complete 12 exercises, each to failure
- Relax my face
- Continue to improve focus and mental strength (determination - fight for that last rep!)
- Increase weight substantially on negative dips and straight-arm DB pullovers
- Increase in weight or reps for at least half of the exercises

I think I have found my baseline caloric intake for maintenance with this type of training. I am at about 2200 Kcals right now, and the scale has been very steady. My waist measurements are going down ever-so-slightly, and my arm and thigh measurements are each up 1/16 - 1/8 inch. I will probably raise my calories by about 100 per day next week and see what happens.

Overall, I am pleased so far. I don't expect to gain large amounts of muscle with my current caloric intake. My strength is increasing. And looking in the mirror, I seem 'bigger' already (in a good way). :tucool:

[B]

Overall, I am pleased so far. I don't expect to gain large amounts of muscle with my current caloric intake. My strength is increasing. And looking in the mirror, I seem 'bigger' already (in a good way). :tucool:

Congrats on an excellent thread Leftnut, Rtestes directed me to it.
Looks like your making great progress.
Remember gaining large amounts of muscle is from the workout not from eating excess calories.
If you have a little fat on your body its still possible to make muscle gains on a deficit of calories as a pound of fat contains around 3500 calories.
It has been done before (i think it was Casey Viator), but knowing how to tap into this reserve is another thing.(havn't tried it yet myself)
I think your on the right track so keep doing what your doing. :gl:

Thanks for stopping by!

Yeah, they say a pound of muscle has about 600 calories, so even though I don't have a ton of fat left I should (in theory) be able to gain some muscle.

In Darden's new book, he talks about a couple of his trainees who were able to do this on surprisingly low caloric levels.

At any rate, this style of training is difficult but it seems to suit me well so far.

Congrats on an excellent thread Leftnut, Rtestes directed me to it.
Looks like your making great progress.
Remember gaining large amounts of muscle is from the workout not from eating excess calories.
If you have a little fat on your body its still possible to make muscle gains on a deficit of calories as a pound of fat contains around 3500 calories.
It has been done before (i think it was Casey Viator), but knowing how to tap into this reserve is another thing.(havn't tried it yet myself)
I think your on the right track so keep doing what your doing. :gl:

Workout 4 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

Another great workout this morning. Weights or reps went up on most exercises. It was a bit hard getting into it at first, with the time change and all; but after the first few reps I settled right in.

However--I am finding that as I get better at pushing myself harder, it is more difficult to set up the next exercise quickly. I am trying, but my body just won't move as fast as my brain is telling it to. :lol: Getting up out of the seated leg press is hard enough, but then my legs just won't move fast enough to get to my next exercise in time. It's like this with a few of the exercises. I guess I can only do my best. My heart rate is staying up there, that's for sure!

I am finally getting into the ballpark for the right weights to use on all of the exercises. I still need to strap on some more weight for negative dips, though...I got 17 reps with 70 pounds. Other than that, everything was 12 reps or less today. The exceptions to the 12-reps are leg press (I go 10 - 15 reps), and calf press (15-20). But these are intentional.

I did all 12 exercises today, and was finished in 40 minutes.

Goals for next workout:

- Complete 12 exercises, each to failure
- Relax my face (this is proving to be quite the challenge!)
- Continue to improve focus and mental strength (determination - fight for that last rep!)
- Increase in weight or reps for at least half of the exercises

Workout 4 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

However--I am finding that as I get better at pushing myself harder, it is more difficult to set up the next exercise quickly. I am trying, but my body just won't move as fast as my brain is telling it to. I guess I can only do my best. My heart rate is staying up there, that's for sure!

Don't fault yourself too much. HIT was born on Nautilus machines. Machines are set up for fast transitions. Hammer, Nautilus, Medx, cybrex have some good well structured machines that provided a full response movement with full natural motion.

Don't get stuck on free weights path. Both can be fit into program. But as you say your cardio is being taken care of, now. At the rest you are getting.

Also, that is where a compatible training partners can also fit in preparing ahead of time. He would go to next one when he finished only a few changes need to be made to weights and etc. When I finish an exercise, I move to next, while grandson removes and puts on weights he needs and by the time he finishes his he goes to my next which I have finished, I remain one step ahead.

Yeah, it would be good to have a partner who was into this too.

I think I'm using a pretty good combination of machines and free weights. My leg exercises are all on machines right now. My gym does have lots of good Hammer machines, maybe I could incorporate one of those for my chest press or something. I do like to bench with a BB or DB's , though.

Thanks for your input!

My gym does have lots of good Hammer machines, maybe I could incorporate one of those for my chest press or something.

I like the hammer bench presses. Did you know Arthur Jones's son designed and owns Hammer?

I did not know that. Perhaps that explains why I have heard several HIT guys speak/write favorably about Hammer.

I like the hammer bench presses. Did you know Arthur Jones's son designed and owns Hammer?

I did not know that. Perhaps that explains why I have heard several HIT guys speak/write favorably about Hammer.
Some of their machines seem as close to free weights as traditional 'machines'. I especially like the incline and military press machines, and lots of pro's use hammer but claim to only use free weights, so that's a testament.

Great Thread. I am thinking of starting this in a couple of weeks. I have one question. I play basketball, softball, soccer, and volleyball during the week do you think they will create any disadvantages to this program.

Thanks for the input and keep up the great work.

Hi Rockdogg, thanks for stopping by.

Everything probably has an impact.....however--I know that some of Darden's studies were done with college athletes who did HIT in addition to their normal practice schedules. They seemed to get fantastic results combining the activities.

Also--Andy McCutcheon (the model for all of the exercises in Darden's new HIT book) does HIT and is involved with martial arts and plays some sports for fun.

I have been considering joining the lunchtime soccer games 2-3 times per week at work on days I don't train.

It seems that the main thing to avoid is excessive steady-state or HIIT cardio, which can be catabolic and can compromise your body's recovery abilities. Sports, while sometimes physically demanding, tend to be more of a stop-start activity, and often don't have quite the same effect as cardio for cardio's sake.


Great Thread. I am thinking of starting this in a couple of weeks. I have one question. I play basketball, softball, soccer, and volleyball during the week do you think they will create any disadvantages to this program.

Thanks for the input and keep up the great work.

Well, I didn't train as scheduled this morning. I had a little *ahem* 'procedure' done yesterday, I will spare y'all the yucky details. I need to heal up for another day before lifting. I should be fine to hit the weights again tomorrow.

So I will lift tomorrow, Saturday, and then either Monday or Tuesday. Then, next Wednesday, we're off to the airport at dark:30 in the morning for VACATION! Ths week can't go by fast enough!

Man! I just got back from trying my first day of HIT. I know what you meant by nearly puking. I swear if I see a weight or anything, I will probably faint. It was hard, I was running from 1 exercise to the other, and I could feel my heart pounding out of my chest. I must say though, I was really off on many of my estimates but now I know what to work on. I was definitly shaky after I left the gym, I swear some people were looking at me like I was a zombie. My body was so tired, I could barely think of anything else but getting home and getting something in my stomach. HIT is defintly Hell-incarnate, but I can't wait to see how I feel tommorrow. Thanx Leftnut, your thread helped me clear up things that were hazy before.

Supa

:D All aboard the pain train! :D

It's cool, isn't it? It really feels like you've done something when you get through one of these workouts. I'm glad my little journal has helped you out a bit.

I find that keeping good records of weights/reps has helped me dial in the right amounts from workout to workout. I'm just getting to the point where all of my weights are in the correct rep range.

Keep us posted on your experience!

:gl:



Man! I just got back from trying my first day of HIT. I know what you meant by nearly puking. I swear if I see a weight or anything, I will probably faint. It was hard, I was running from 1 exercise to the other, and I could feel my heart pounding out of my chest. I must say though, I was really off on many of my estimates but now I know what to work on. I was definitly shaky after I left the gym, I swear some people were looking at me like I was a zombie. My body was so tired, I could barely think of anything else but getting home and getting something in my stomach. HIT is defintly Hell-incarnate, but I can't wait to see how I feel tommorrow. Thanx Leftnut, your thread helped me clear up things that were hazy before.

Supa

Workout 5 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

Well it was a good workout this morning. Legs went well:

- Increased lying leg curl by 2 reps
- Increased quad extension by 20 pounds and got 12 reps
- Increased leg press by 50 pounds and got 10 reps

Moving on to upper body exercises, I was feeling like I wasn't getting enough reps in. I work out early in the morning, and I guess my mind isn't always the sharpest (especially the week after daylight savings). For some reason, I thought I got one less rep on my barbell bench press and barbell shoulder press; and this was pissing me off. The rest of the workout went well, increasing reps or weight on almost all exercises.

When I got home, I compared my workout to my last one to see if I had actually dropped reps in those exercises. Nope, they were the same as Monday. So that's ok. Those two exercises seem to increase at a slower rate for some reason. So far, I seem to be adding 1 rep every 2-3 workouts. The bench press I can understand, because I am usually more of a dip and dumbbell bench press guy. But the shoulder presses are baffling me a bit; I am usually prettty strong with those for my size. It's probably because they come later in the routine.

It seemed like everyone in the gym wanted to stop and chat with me today. So a couple of my breaks were a little longer. This is annoying, but it's not usually a problem and I'm not going to be a jerk about it. If it continues to be a problem, I will just start avoiding all eye contact with everyone at the gym. :lol: I'm not there to chit-chat.

Goals for next workout:

- Complete 12 exercises, each to failure
- Relax my face (I am slowly improving here)
- Continue to improve focus and mental strength (determination - fight for that last rep!)
- Increase in weight or reps for at least half of the exercises

Y'all have a good day now. :)

Well leftnut, you told me to keep you posted. Today is my first day after doing HIT yesterday. And out of all the muscles in my body that are sore, its my traps. I dont know what i did, but when I was driving today I went to reach to my back seat to grab my CD case and I could barely lift up the case. I have never had my traps this sore EVER. Stretching at the moment has made me also notice that my chest is a bit sore probably from the flies. Well, thought I'd share the pain. Take Care.

Supa

That's interesting. Did you do shrugs or standing rows yesterday? My current routine doesn't include either, but I have noticed that I often feel a little soreness in my traps too. I am not sure where that is coming from....maybe the standing barbell press or weighted negative pull-ups? Doesn't make much sense to me, but they are getting worked somehow.

Well leftnut, you told me to keep you posted. Today is my first day after doing HIT yesterday. And out of all the muscles in my body that are sore, its my traps. I dont know what i did, but when I was driving today I went to reach to my back seat to grab my CD case and I could barely lift up the case. I have never had my traps this sore EVER. Stretching at the moment has made me also notice that my chest is a bit sore probably from the flies. Well, thought I'd share the pain. Take Care.

Supa

Workout 6 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

Not a lot of time tonight. But I had a very good workout this morning, and increased weights or reps on all exercises but one - bench press. But I got more of a partial rep on that one than last time. I may need to re-think my chest press exercise; maybe use a Hammer machine, or find a plateau-breaking technique to help me get over this hump.

Goals for next workout:

- Complete 12 exercises, each to failure
- Relax my face (I am slowly improving here)
- Continue to improve focus and mental strength (determination - fight for that last rep!)
- Increase in weight or reps for at least half of the exercises
- Get one more rep on bench press!

That's interesting. Did you do shrugs or standing rows yesterday? My current routine doesn't include either, but I have noticed that I often feel a little soreness in my traps too. I am not sure where that is coming from....maybe the standing barbell press or weighted negative pull-ups? Doesn't make much sense to me, but they are getting worked somehow.

I dont know I thought it was wierd too. Oh well I guess a muscle worked out for free is a good thing right :D . Hey Leftnut have some questions for you...

1) When I finished my 2nd day of HIT, the next day, I really didnt feel that sore. Also immediatly after my workout I didnt feel "tight" or "swole", and those feeling are what allow me to know if I had a good workout. So the question is, is HIT more of a cardio or strenght-gain exercise, becuase I dont feel much except for the "shaking" after a hard day of HIT.

2) Now that I do HIT 3 days a week. I used to do cardio M,W,F,S,Su. But unfortunatly HIT is becoming so demanding of energy that the following day I'm "pooped" to get up a run. I was wondering if you do any cardio, and if so "fasted" or whenever you can get it in.

Thanks, Supa

All I can do is share my limited experience, and what I've read. Maybe some others will have some insight too:


1) When I finished my 2nd day of HIT, the next day, I really didnt feel that sore. Also immediatly after my workout I didnt feel "tight" or "swole", and those feeling are what allow me to know if I had a good workout. So the question is, is HIT more of a cardio or strenght-gain exercise, becuase I dont feel much except for the "shaking" after a hard day of HIT.

I feel sore in some body parts, not so much in others. I was fairly sore all over the first week. However--today, for example, I am only a little sore in the backs of my arms and nowhere else. I have read that this type of experience is normal.

Another thing to keep in mind is, you will be working the same body parts again 48-72 hours after your workout. So even if you are not making as much of an inroad to your muscle strength in the HIT workout (and I don't know for sure that that is the case), you are still doing 3-6 sets to failure for each body part per week. As long as you are truly working to failure, you should trigger the growth response (overcompensation).

The whole point of HIT, as I understand it, is to do exactly the right amount of exercise which will make just the right inroad to your recovery abilities that you will be able to fully recover and grow before your next workout. Nothing less, nothing more. Hopefully that makes sense.

Lots of the HIT'ers are critical of high-volume training because they claim it can make too much of an inroad to the muscle's recovery ability--the trainee does so much damage with the volume, that he doesn't give himself adequate time to fully recover and grow before the next workout.

HIT is primarily for strength and size. Any cardio benefits are secondary.


2) Now that I do HIT 3 days a week. I used to do cardio M,W,F,S,Su. But unfortunatly HIT is becoming so demanding of energy that the following day I'm "pooped" to get up a run. I was wondering if you do any cardio, and if so "fasted" or whenever you can get it in.


Yeah, I notice the same thing. HIT and extra cardio don't necessarily go together all that well. You will hear different opinions. I think the prevailing opinion is that the cardio gets in the way of your body's ability to fullly recover and grow before your next workout. To prevent excess fat gain, lots of guys seem to eat a few less calories than someone who might be doing cardio 7 times per week.

I haven't been doing any cardio. I have been eating between 2200-2500 calories per day, and my weight has remained constant for the past couple weeks.

I will say that lately I have felt a bit inactive. I have been considering playing soccer or ultimate frisbee a couple times per week (on non-training days) for fun. I don't think this would affect recovery too much. I would hate to think that you would haft to be a couch potato for HIT to be effective.

All I can do is share my limited experience, and what I've read. Maybe some others will have some insight too:



You learn quickly and provide a good explanation. Hit is efficent and effective. DOMS is not a sign of growth or an effective workout, neither is a pump. You are doing it right, working from an intelligent understanding build from reading and studying the method.

I do not have a leg press for the routines in Darden's book what should I replace this exercise with. Squats or something else. Let me know if you have any ideas.

Great thread very informative. Starting next week :D Did you do the two weeks of build up descriped in Darden's book or just jump in.

Thanks for your help,

Nathan

Yeah, squats are great. I didn't start with squats because I had been doing them for a long time and wanted a break from them for a while. Just be sure you do them in a power rack with safety bars if you don't have spotters. You want to feel completely safe when going to failure.

I pretty much jumped right in, but I did a couple less exercises per workout for the first two workouts. By the third workout, I was doing 12 exercises. It took some practice (mental) to go to failure on every single set, but I went to failure on most exercises from the beginning.

I mostly followed Darden's beginning workouts, but I substituted a couple exercises from the start. Instead of upright rows, I started by doing weighted pullups and then weighted negative-only pullups. From my second workout on, I did weighted negative-only dips instead of tricep extensions.

Good luck man, and let us know how it's going!



I do not have a leg press for the routines in Darden's book what should I replace this exercise with. Squats or something else. Let me know if you have any ideas.

Great thread very informative. Starting next week :D Did you do the two weeks of build up descriped in Darden's book or just jump in.

Thanks for your help,

Nathan

Workout 7 - Beginning HIT Routine 1B

Awesome workout this morning. I went up in weight or reps on every single exercise, and I got that extra rep on the bench press!

Starting tomorrow, I will be on vacation for two weeks and may or may not make updates here. My wife and I are going to Mexico. I will continue to work out, but I don't know what the facilities will be like. There is a weight room at our resort; it's probably pretty sparse, but I will make due.

Have a good time leftnut, see you when you get back. err, not see you, but, you know...

:D Thanks man.

How's it going with those pullups?

Have a good time leftnut, see you when you get back. err, not see you, but, you know...

:D Thanks man.

How's it going with those pullups?

Well I wasn't ecstatic about my most recent performance this past weekend, which was my third overall try at the pullups. I was getting severe head aches toward the end of each set. I still did okay but I feel like I should be improving more. Well during my leg workout today, I found out that the headaches are directly related to not breathing properly during a single rep. As the reps in a set became more difficult, I tend to cut my inhale short and then extend my exhale. Pretty dumb thing to do as I was depriving my body of more and more oxygen with each rep. So by the end of the set, I am practicaly getting no oxygen. I'm surprised I didn't pass out. You can check out my latest journal entry (click in my sig - journal page 4) for more on that. Also, I posted 1 month pics last week in there if you're interested (page 3). Regardless of breathing wrong, I think the pullups are really helping my lats. I'm looking forward to doing them WITH oxygen next time. Wouldn't that be good. :tu:

I checked out your journal - looking great man. :tu: Keep it up, and don't forget to breathe. :p

Well I wasn't ecstatic about my most recent performance this past weekend, which was my third overall try at the pullups. I was getting severe head aches toward the end of each set. I still did okay but I feel like I should be improving more. Well during my leg workout today, I found out that the headaches are directly related to not breathing properly during a single rep. As the reps in a set became more difficult, I tend to cut my inhale short and then extend my exhale. Pretty dumb thing to do as I was depriving my body of more and more oxygen with each rep. So by the end of the set, I am practicaly getting no oxygen. I'm surprised I didn't pass out. You can check out my latest journal entry (click in my sig - journal page 4) for more on that. Also, I posted 1 month pics last week in there if you're interested (page 3). Regardless of breathing wrong, I think the pullups are really helping my lats. I'm looking forward to doing them WITH oxygen next time. Wouldn't that be good. :tu:

What an awesome vacation! The weight of the world left my shoulders as soon as we walked into our hotel room. I put my wallet and watch in the safe, put on the boardshorts, and absolutely nothing mattered for two weeks. I haven't been able to do that for.....well, ever. Can't wait until next year - we will be doing it again.

The resort had a pretty pathetic weight room. So, I did abbreviated workouts (about 7 exercises/sets). I am sure I didn't make any forward progress, but I figured that would probably be the case.

I gained about two pounds (half and inch on my waist), and it was worth it. We ate unbelievable amounts of food, including TONS of pastries and ice cream, with absolutely no regrets. I am sure some of the size gain is due to water weight that will probably be released within the next week. I didn't drink enough water, but I wasn't totally dehydrated either.

So now it's back to work. I am going to evaluate my measurements over the next few days and decide how best to shape up for the summer. I will be sticking with HIT, and will be cutting calories until I am satisfied with my bodyfat level. As long as I am strict with my nutrition and work hard, I think I am 6-8 weeks out.

I am trying to decide whether to include two mornings of spinning class per week, or play soccer at lunch a couple days. I would enjoy it, and I would hope that two cardio workouts per week wouldn't significantly hamper muscle recovery and growth. After doing no cardio for a few weeks before my vacation, I think that a little more activity is good for me and keeps me energized.

This morning was my first full workout since vacation. It was a good one, judging from the way I felt--I was on the verge of puking a couple times. Some of my exercises went up from before vacation, some were the same, and a couple went down a little. On the ones that went down, I think it was more from general exhaustion and a little mental weakness. I'm sure things will pick back up next week.

My bodyweight and measurements have continued to drop since returning home. I am now within a pound of where I was two weeks ago. My waist measurements are still about .25" up. My bodyfat measurements are just a tad higher than two weeks ago. I definitely notice some extra junk around the belly and lower back sides. Still no regrets, though. I guess that's the great thing about having a basic understanding of fitness and nutrition--I know how to manipulate my body fat levels to some degree, and I don't feel hopeless or doubtful about losing a few pounds of fat.

I will probably continue to update this thread as I continue with HIT. At this point, the thread is probably more of a journal than a challenge, but that's ok. Hell, it is a challenge just to stick with HIT....it is quite difficult, physically and mentally. I will probably be looking at some specialization techniques for my chest and possibly my arms, we'll see.

:confused:

Well, yesterday's workout was a bit puzzling. I went up on some exercises, but I also went down significantly on a couple.

For example, I strapped on 90 pounds for my negative-only chinups, and by the second rep I could not control the speed of descent. Last workout, I got 11 of those. I don't think I am injured or anything like that, but it sure was weird. I definitely felt very sore in my lats and upper triceps.

And my leg curls were down a few reps too.

I can usually count on improving those two exercises every workout. Very strange. We'll see what happens tomorrow morning. At this stage, I am not going to change any weights or exercises for tomorrow; I suspect it was just a freak thing.

The other strange thing is, I went way up for leg extensions and leg press and some other exercises.

Actually, it was my first workout at 5AM after almost three weeks--that may explain it. But I am determined to have a great workout tomorrow morning. :flex:

Hey Leftnut, I've been catching up on your journal/challenge and wanted to know how you get through the positive portion of the weighted pullup negatives? Does someone help you get your chin over the bar? (This would contradict the notion of ditching your workout partner now wouldn't it?) Or do you have some other method for the positive? A trampoline perhaps?

Hi Nico!

My gym has a squat cage that has a chinning bar. I position a bench and the safety bars so I can step onto the bench and then up on the bars. That gets me high enough. Hopefully I don't kill myself doing that some day.

A trampoline sounds like a good idea at first....until you start thinking about the two 45-lb. plates hanging down by your crotch. ;)

I have been having good workouts, I just haven't been writing about them here. I should probably keep up with this thread better.

Hey Leftnut, I've been catching up on your journal/challenge and wanted to know how you get through the positive portion of the weighted pullup negatives? Does someone help you get your chin over the bar? (This would contradict the notion of ditching your workout partner now wouldn't it?) Or do you have some other method for the positive? A trampoline perhaps?

While I was on a two week vacation the only workout equipment I could use was the ground and the monkey bars at the playground nearby, so I did a lot of pullup variations.

I'm not ready to add weight yet though-doing 20 pullups is my current goal. How many can you do?

I don't know how many I can do now...at one point I am pretty sure I could do 20 in one set. Of course, those were fast pullups; these days I'm all about doing everything slow and controlled. When I was on vacation I did some chins with a 4/4 cadence, and I barely got 11.

All I've been doing lately is negative chins. Before that, I was only doing weighted pulls/chins. Maybe I will see how many I can do tomorrow if I'm feeling up to it--I tweaked my shoulder and left lat a bit the other day, hopefully it's just a minor thing.

Yeah, 20 is a lot. Are you doing chins or pulls?

While I was on a two week vacation the only workout equipment I could use was the ground and the monkey bars at the playground nearby, so I did a lot of pullup variations.

I'm not ready to add weight yet though-doing 20 pullups is my current goal. How many can you do?

I use a parallel grip most of the time. Overhand pullups tweak my shoulder, and chinups feel like they exhaust my biceps before my lats, so I usually take the hammer grip. I can get 12 or 13 on a good day at a moderate tempo. If I go really slow I can only get 8 or 9.

Doing HIT, are you finding that you get enough days of recovery? I would think that if I did a few sets of intense back work on a Monday that I wouldn't be able to do back at all again until at least Friday, much less Wednesday. Or do the fewer sets alleviate this issue?

I will need to see how many parallel grip pulls I can do; I know that they are easier for me than overhand pulls or underhand chins. I had to postpone my workout today due to illness, and I want to let my shoulder/lat heal up for at least one more day. I really wanted to get into the gym, but for once I let the voice of reason win. ;)

As far as HIT recovery goes--funny you should mention that, because I have recently added an extra day of rest between workouts. So I am now working out every third day. I have only been doing this for a couple weeks, but I have noticed that I am progressing more each workout.

The goal of HIT is to do just enough exercise to stimulate overcompensation in the muscles, and then hit your next workout before that overcompensation is lost. One set to failure should provide the needed stimulus and make an inroad to the muscle's strength that can be restored in 48-72 hours (for me). I think higher volume training often makes an even greater inroad to the muscle's strength, so increased recovery time is necessary to avoid overtraining.

I know that volume training can work. That's how I was able to dramatically increase my pullup abilities. I'm just trying to find out if HIT really works better.


I use a parallel grip most of the time. Overhand pullups tweak my shoulder, and chinups feel like they exhaust my biceps before my lats, so I usually take the hammer grip. I can get 12 or 13 on a good day at a moderate tempo. If I go really slow I can only get 8 or 9.

Doing HIT, are you finding that you get enough days of recovery? I would think that if I did a few sets of intense back work on a Monday that I wouldn't be able to do back at all again until at least Friday, much less Wednesday. Or do the fewer sets alleviate this issue?

I wonder if there any well known natural bodybuilders using a Darden-like HIT workout schedule? Just about every article I've seen from a natural bodybuilder involves a traditional split, like MaxOT. The reason I mention naturals is that if you look at bodybuilding as a whole the pro's are all juiced so the HIT proponents will always say "They do all that volume and still grow because of the steroids."

HIT proponents will argue that those who are genetically gifted will see great results from almost any type of training, even if it's not optimal. It would stand to reason that most natural bodybuilders are genetically predisposed to succeed in that sport. They are gifted not only with large muscle bellies, but with enhanced recovery abilities.

Add steroids to someone who already has the best genetics and the will to work for it, and you get Ronnie Coleman.

I am sure almost all of these guys work hard, natural or not. But one can't discount their natural abilities.

Are there any well-known natural bodybuilders?? ;) At any rate, who knows what these guys actually do to train. How can you possibly see through all of the endorsement deals? I don't know.

I do know that what applies to these guys probably doesn't apply to me. I am definitely not genetically advantaged, as far as bodybuilding goes. My progress seems very slow no matter how hard I work.

Anyway, so I think the HIT advocate's argument isn't just steroids, it's genetics+steroids.....hope that makes sense.

While I was on vacation and had limited time, I found that the HIT full body workout fit perfectly my needs. But when I got home and had five days of no work and could design my workouts however I wanted, I instinctively went back to a split routine, but with pretty low volume, and high intensity.

If you had unlimited time and had the goal of adding mass, do you think HIT could be superior to a low volume 3 or 4 day split? (for a non-gifted hard gainer)

The answer is probably 'I don't know yet since I'm still new to HIT' but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Well, your instinct would be right....I don't know yet.

HIT can be interpreted different ways, though. It's not necessarily just one set to failure, though that seems to be the most common interpretation. An article by Ken Leistner rtestes posted recently sheds some light on this. HIT is more a set of principles than anything; adjustments for success/failure are built into those principles. So, it would seem that anyone could get optimal training with HIT with some persistence. In theory, anyway. :)

While I was on vacation and had limited time, I found that the HIT full body workout fit perfectly my needs. But when I got home and had five days of no work and could design my workouts however I wanted, I instinctively went back to a split routine, but with pretty low volume, and high intensity.

If you had unlimited time and had the goal of adding mass, do you think HIT could be superior to a low volume 3 or 4 day split? (for a non-gifted hard gainer)

The answer is probably 'I don't know yet since I'm still new to HIT' but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Is it fair to say that all HIT programs involve a full body workout?

Naw, lots of guys do some sort of split. :)

Is it fair to say that all HIT programs involve a full body workout?

So if HIT isn't defined by the full body workout, is there an upper limit of sets per bodypart that distinguishes it from traditional heavy duty training.

For instance, if you are working Chest, Shoulders, and triceps and do the following number of sets:

Chest: 2
Shoulders: 2
Triceps: 1

then that could fit within the definitions of HIT, but what is the upper limit of sets? What if you do:

Chest: 6
Shoulders: 4
Triceps: 4

Are you no longer doing HIT even if you are using a slow cadence, going to failure, and using very strict form?

I always liked Mike Mentzer's philosophy but I felt he pushed it too far by advocating such little volume.

Yes, I think you are right. About sets, Leistner said 1, 2, certainly never more than 3 per exercise. I think the guiding principle in terms of volume is this: there should be just enough volume to initiate the growth response, and no more.

This article explains it far better than I can:

Sensible Training - A Logical Approach to Size and Strength (http://www.cyberpump.com/preview/sense.html)

That article seems well in line with what I have read from Darden.



So if HIT isn't defined by the full body workout, is there an upper limit of sets per bodypart that distinguishes it from traditional heavy duty training.

For instance, if you are working Chest, Shoulders, and triceps and do the following number of sets:

Chest: 2
Shoulders: 2
Triceps: 1

then that could fit within the definitions of HIT, but what is the upper limit of sets? What if you do:

Chest: 6
Shoulders: 4
Triceps: 4

Are you no longer doing HIT even if you are using a slow cadence, going to failure, and using very strict form?

I always liked Mike Mentzer's philosophy but I felt he pushed it too far by advocating such little volume.

There are variations. Glen01 for one does splits. I have always done full body workouts for 50 years, I believe in them.

I also think Darden presents the best full package that can get anyone started with HIT for bulking and cutting.

While I think Hit is the best program for 80% of the people of all ages and any sex. There are those who don't adapt to it, not that it wouldn't work for them in terms of results.

I never moved to HIT until about 1983 when I finally got to workout in a full nautilus gym. Before that I pumped and did supersets. After that closed, I used nautilus machines but dropped back to supersets at the gym. A few years ago, I began to cut the sets, I had always cut the rest time and done full body.

For about 2 years, I bought a weider crossbow and came home to train. I bought Darden's Bowflex book, a good one, that made me get out all my nautilus books and re-read Jones and company. I decided to go back to gym and focus on HIT. I never have cared for mentzer and his brand of HIT.

Yes, HIT is a set of principles and attempts to bring the most efficient and effective training to sports. You can adapt it to your needs but I would always give the basics a good chance.

It is time to change my routine up a little, and change a few exercises. So I decided it would be a good time to report my strength gains from the beginning of my HIT experiment until now.

Some of the gains are impressive, some are not. I have already instinctively substituted some exercises where the smallest gains were made. My new routine includes exercises that I feel are more suited to my body--DB bench press, DB military press, shrugs, flyes, etc. I have never liked the BB presses for chest or shoulders, but I wanted to give them a fair shake since they are the exercises included in Darden's beginner routines.

I am exposing myself here, and reporting weights and reps for exercises. I don't like doing this, but it is interesting to see. Just keep in mind that these lifts are all done in a very slow, controlled manner. The average cadence is 4 seconds eccentric, 4 seconds concentric. I was initially surprised at how light I had to go in order to get at least 8 reps. I was previously used to lifting much more for reps on most of these exercises. Also, depending on where certain exercises fall in the routine, I am lifting far less than I normally would when fresh (BB military press, for example).

So, here are some comparison results. The period of time is roughly 6 weeks, which was interrupted by a 2-week vacation. For some exercises, I include more than one progression point if it seemed interesting.

Machine Leg Curls: 160x10, 180x10

Machine Leg Extensions: 160x12, 260x12

Leg Press: 315x13, 405x13, 455x9

Straight-arm DB pullover: 40x28, 60x12, 75x11

BB Bench Press: 165x8, 170x9

Weighted Negative-only Chin-up: 35x12, 70x12, 90x11

Barbell Military Press: 85x8, 90x8

Barbell Bicep Curls: 75x7, 85x10

Weighted Negative-only Dip: 25x22, 90x21, 105x15

BB Wrist Curl: 50x8, 60x12

Calf Presses on Leg Press Machine: 495x17, 675x13


From these numbers, I can see that overall strength has increased. I should also mention that my workouts virtually always last 40 minutes.

I have not seen much in the way of size increases yet. I hope they are soon to follow. I think some of the new exercises will help. I am not eating to gain mass right now.

As mentioned, I am ditching the BB bench press, BB dumbell press, straight-arm DB pullover (strength increases were ok but the exercise strains my shoulder). I am also going to take a break on the wrist curls. And, instead of negative-only dips and chins, I will be doing the full movements for a while just to change things up. I want to be able to do 10 slow chins with 35 pounds strapped around my waist. :)

I am exposing myself here, and reporting weights and reps for exercises. I don't like doing this, but it is interesting to see. Just keep in mind that these lifts are all done in a very slow, controlled manner. The average cadence is 4 seconds eccentric, 4 seconds concentric. The period of time is roughly 6 weeks, which was interrupted by a 2-week vacation. For some exercises, I include more than one progression point if it seemed interesting.I have not seen much in the way of size increases yet. I hope they are soon to follow. I think some of the new exercises will help. I am not eating to gain mass right now.

Great results, nothing to excuse here. Diet is the key to mass gain as well as fat loss.

Thank you--I am pleased overall.

It has been interesting trying to dial in the nutrition because I am not expending the calories on cardio like I used to. Overall, I need to eat less I think....which is fine with me. I never understood why anyone would want to eat tons of food. It seems like it would be more advantageous to eat less, for efficiency's sake.

Still trying to lose a little fat. I think I'm slowly getting there. Can't wait to focus more on mass building.

Great results, nothing to excuse here. Diet is the key to mass gain as well as fat loss.

Thank you--I am pleased overall.

It has been interesting trying to dial in the nutrition because I am not expending the calories on cardio like I used to. Overall, I need to eat less I think....which is fine with me. I never understood why anyone would want to eat tons of food. It seems like it would be more advantageous to eat less, for efficiency's sake.

Still trying to lose a little fat. I think I'm slowly getting there. Can't wait to focus more on mass building.

Looks like your making good progress. :tu:
I agree, eating too much will usually just result in more fat than muscle gain, although i think younger trainers with a fast metabolism can make better gains doing this, i remember when i was 20 i could eat whatever and as much as i liked and never put any fat on.
Cant get away with it now.

Are you putting on any fat since stopping cardio?
Keep up the hard work, looks like you've got a good understanding of what your doing, i hope you start gaining some serious muscle soon.

By the way, i attempted fullbody workout last week, totally smashed me, ill have to rethink the routine, 11 exercises was too much.
Legs are the killer, i would have no problem doing a full upper body workout.
Im on the last pages of Dardens book finally, (took a month to get here!) its quite a good read, so when i have a firm understanding of it all ill give fullbody routines 1 more shot to prove to myself if they work or not for mass gains.
I was impressed with Hudlows gains.
:gl:

Thanks for the encouragement and observations.

It's a little hard to tell what's been going on with my body fat % lately, because my vacation screwed me up a little. I came back about 1/4 to 1/2 inch bigger in my waist measurements. I have lost most of that fat by now, but now my arm is about 1/8 inch down from before the trip. :mad:

So I don't know exactly what is going on. I've been in the 1800-2100 calorie range, but I allow myself a couple bigger off-plan meals per week. Those days are usually 2600-3000 calories. The food in those meals is usually fairly healthy, just high carb and maybe some cheese; and dessert.

I will be keeping a close watch on those arm measurements. It is strange, because my strength is still going up. :confused:

Looks like your making good progress. :tu:
I agree, eating too much will usually just result in more fat than muscle gain, although i think younger trainers with a fast metabolism can make better gains doing this, i remember when i was 20 i could eat whatever and as much as i liked and never put any fat on.
Cant get away with it now.

Are you putting on any fat since stopping cardio?
Keep up the hard work, looks like you've got a good understanding of what your doing, i hope you start gaining some serious muscle soon.

By the way, i attempted fullbody workout last week, totally smashed me, ill have to rethink the routine, 11 exercises was too much.
Legs are the killer, i would have no problem doing a full upper body workout.
Im on the last pages of Dardens book finally, (took a month to get here!) its quite a good read, so when i have a firm understanding of it all ill give fullbody routines 1 more shot to prove to myself if they work or not for mass gains.
I was impressed with Hudlows gains.
:gl:

Ok, I have been testing this out lately on my off days. Last week, I did 22 hammer-grip pullups. Yesterday, I did 20 with the palms-facing-away grip.

In a few days I will see how many chins I can do. Probably about the same.

I thought I might be able to do more with the overhand grip, but since I haven't been doing them lately 20 seems pretty good.

I asked my wife yesterday, "so how many pullups do you think I can do?" I'm sure she thought to her self, "oh man, what a self-absorbed dolt". But she smiled and said, "I don't know, 30?"

*gulp*

:lol: I don't know if she was just throwing out an offhand number (thinking that pullups aren't much harder than pushups), or if she was trying to put me in my place a little. Sorta took the wind out of my sails, though. Heh. Sorta like if my kid came to me all excited and said, "Hey Dad, guess what grade I got on my final?" And I would say, "let me guess, and A-." ....when he actually got a B.

I guess I need to set a goal for 30 pullups.



doing 20 pullups is my current goal. How many can you do?

Haha,
My girls the same, she doesnt give a hoot how much i lift.
She likes me getting more muscular but if i try to pose and show her a muscle i have developed she calls me a luvvo.
I try to explain to her that posing is all part of it to see if your making progress on certain musclegroups, she doesn't believe me. :D

She likes me getting more muscular but if i try to pose and show her a muscle i have developed she calls me a luvvo.

What does luvvo mean? Is that aussie slang for being vain?

My wife used to hate the gym because she only did 'real exercise' like cycling, running, and team sports. In fact she detested the whole idea of lifting weights and thought anyone who spent time in the gym was a narcissist. She gradually changed her mind when she saw both of our physical conditions deteriote over the course of 5 years of less and less daily exercise. Now she's starting to really get into it.

As for doing pullups, you should be aware that the ability to do 30 clean pullups (no excessive kicking of the legs) is quite remarkable and would break most high school records. Twenty is very good and even ten is pretty good. I've seen plenty of bodybuilders who could not do 10 clean pullups, mainly because their legs were so massive that they were having to pull well over 200 pounds.

What does luvvo mean? Is that aussie slang for being vain?
.

Thats right.

Ok. Obviously, I haven't been updating this thread. I have been hitting all of my workouts, and they have been going well for the most part.

However--I am taking a break from HIT, maybe for good. I gave Darden's HIT workouts 8 weeks, and have determined that it just doesn't fit in with my goals right now. My last HIT workout was last Thursday.

About half of those 8 weeks were spent in a caloric deficit, and about half at or slightly above maintenance. To be brief, here are some of the results I have seen:

- Good increases in strength on most exercises (though I am not sure how this translates to strength outside the context of a HIT workout)

- A new appreciation for proper form

- Improved mental focus and the ability to work past pain

- I found that I really like full-body workouts

- About 1/2" increase in navel and belt line measurements

- About 1/8" decrease in arm size

- 2-3 pounds bodyweight gained

- No significant change in other measurements


When I started to see the decrease in arm size, I decided to work out every 3rd day instead of M-W-F every week. I believe the decrease in frequency of the workouts contributed to some of the fat gain. Oddly enough, the persistent fat increase was not because of my vacation; within a few days of returning, my waist measurements were back to pre-vacation length. My diet over the past two weeks has been 2500-2600 clean calories 6-7 days per week. A couple days per week, I allowed myself a larger meal that was mostly healthy (lots of carbs), but I did allow dessert. I haven't had a day over 3500 calories in the last two weeks; in fact, there have only been a couple days that have been in the 3000 calorie range. So apparently, I was eating above maintenance; thus the fat gain.

I don't believe the problem was my diet. I have had some good success with this same nutritional approach in the past.

Conclusions

HIT is not for me right now. Perhaps it will work another time. Philosophically, it is an interesting program that makes sense at more than one level. That is why I am a bit puzzled by my experience. Good strength gains, but no size--except on the waistline.

Overall, I felt pretty inactive on this program. The lack of cardio doesn't seem to compliment my current lifestyle (read: desk job). I don't feel out of shape, but I have felt better. I think I look and feel better when I am more active. I prefer to eat more and do more. Of course, that may change some day.

Of course, I am disappointed. And of course, your mileage may vary (I would hope so). :)


Moving On

Well, now I need to lose the fat I have gained. It's not a lot, but I want to make a last push and lose about 4 pounds of fat altogether. I am smaller than I want to be, but with summer approaching I would rather be lean and a bit small. For the first time ever, I actually felt ok going shirtless on my vacation; but this bit of extra fat has me feeling more self-conscious again.

I will be returning to a nutritional and cardio approach that has helped me lean out in the past--Tom Venuto's BFFM. I will be zig-zagging calories and tapering carbs. I will also be doing some form of HIIT 2-3 times per week, with maybe a good uphill hike once per week.

For weights, I have already started a HST cycle. Over the course of a week, the volume is similar to what I have successfully used in the past. Plus I can work in some more exercises that I didn't work into my HIT routines. The program is laid out a bit different from what I am used to, but it should work just fine. The main thing that is different from HIT is there is less training to failure. HST seems like a good balance of volume, intensity, efficiency, and progression. I am optimistic about the program.

Ok. However--I am taking a break from HIT, maybe for good. I gave Darden's HIT workouts 8 weeks, and have determined that it just doesn't fit in with my goals right now. My last HIT workout was last Thursday.

To be brief, here are some of the results I have seen:

- Good increases in strength on most exercises (though I am not sure how this translates to strength outside the context of a HIT workout)

- A new appreciation for proper form

- Improved mental focus and the ability to work past pain

- I found that I really like full-body workouts

- About 1/2" increase in navel and belt line measurements

- About 1/8" decrease in arm size

- 2-3 pounds bodyweight gained

- No significant change in other measurements




I am sorry you didn't see the results you wanted. I hope the next method fits your needs. I still think HIT is an efficient and effective means of training. But like a glove, it doesn't fit everyone. You did give it a good try.

Well I really appreciated your input. You helped steer me in the right direction so I could find the info I needed to set up my program. :tucool:

Like I said, maybe HIT would work for me under different circumstances; but I don't know. I am sure it works well for many trainees.


I am sorry you didn't see the results you wanted. I hope the next method fits your needs. I still think HIT is an efficient and effective means of training. But like a glove, it doesn't fit everyone. You did give it a good try.