Hey everyone, i started working out again about a month and a half ago and i got rid of my bench and bought one of those nautilus smiths. basicaly iam pretty sure which workouts iam going to do but the method used is confusing. i guess there is maxOt and there is HIT. I remember reading you should only workout one muscle group once in a week. though i read this isnt the case with HIT. Is this the case?

That's entirely subjective. Some people like to do a full body workout 3x per week, some people like working out a body part only once per week. It's good to switch them up from time to time.

Right now, I'm doing something in between. I do heavy/light days 3x per week. I divided my exercises into three categories (legs, chest, back/delt) and divided up the work this way :

Day 1: Heavy legs, light chest, abs
Day 3: Heavy chest, light back/delts, abs
Day 5: Heavy back/delts, light legs, abs

By doing this, I work out each part twice per week, one time lighter with less intensity, one time heavy and all out. I think I'm going to stick with this plan for a while, i'ts delivered the best results for me so far.

i guess there is maxOt and there is HIT. I remember reading you should only workout one muscle group once in a week. though i read this isnt the case with HIT. Is this the case?


Those are two of 100s of ways to workout. They are two very good ones that should produce results. HIT believes you need at least 48 hours for recovery between workouts and no more than 96 hours. You are doing one set per exercise, and no more than 2 sets per body part a day. The total week's sets are less than higher volume methods. The HIT method restricts total sets to 12 a day.

Whatever you decide to do, I feel it is a "must" that you read everything you can about the method, understand it and the logic or science behind it. It will save time and wasted effort.

Rtestes,

I have been more curious about HIT the last few days. In particular, I have seen Mike Mentzer's books. There are several....do you know which one would be the best to help me get a good grasp of HIT and possibly construct a good workout routine?

Or, is there another resource you think would be better and/or more relevant today?

I saw your thread about HIT on the net, but I didn't notice whether any of the links you provided really got into the nuts and bolts of HIT.

Thanks!

Not trying to jack this thread--I think my question is relevant to the original poster's question.

Those are two of 100s of ways to workout. They are two very good ones that should produce results. HIT believes you need at least 48 hours for recovery between workouts and no more than 96 hours. You are doing one set per exercise, and no more than 2 sets per body part a day. The total week's sets are less than higher volume methods. The HIT method restricts total sets to 12 a day.

Whatever you decide to do, I feel it is a "must" that you read everything you can about the method, understand it and the logic or science behind it. It will save time and wasted effort.

Rtestes,

I have been more curious about HIT the last few days. In particular, I have seen Mike Mentzer's books.

Or, is there another resource you think would be better and/or more relevant today?

I saw your thread about HIT on the net, but I didn't notice whether any of the links you provided really got into the nuts and bolts of HIT.



I don't subscibe to Mentzer's views on HIT. The articles in total give you a good idea. Dr. Ellington Darden, who worked for Arthur Jones, has written about 42 books on HIT. His latest, the New HIT (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594860009/ref=pd_qpt_b_5/104-1206378-7298333), has the basics and should provide you a good start, I think I have about 10-12 of his books.

Do a search on Dr. Ken Leistner, Dick Conner
Stuart McRobert, John Christy....as well as the above.
The only thing these guys would sell you is the truth..
it's sad cuz' not many want to hear the reality of strength training for the drug free lifter.
K

Great. Thank you! I will check it out.

Out of curiosity, what specifically do you disagree with Mentzer?

I don't subscibe to Mentzer's views on HIT. The articles in total give you a good idea. Dr. Ellington Darden, who worked for Arthur Jones, has written about 42 books on HIT. His latest, the New HIT (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594860009/ref=pd_qpt_b_5/104-1206378-7298333), has the basics and should provide you a good start, I think I have about 10-12 of his books.

Out of curiosity, what specifically do you disagree with Mentzer?

I think Mentzer advocated too few sets and too long a recovery period. I believe Darden has addressed a method that can be used by the vast majority of people of all ages for a lifetime.

Currently I'm working out three days of every 4, on a three day split, recyling such that each muscle is worked every 4 days. Sometimes it ends up being five. Many would consider this overtraining, but in the past 10 years I've put on almost no size, so I'm basically going back to square one with my weights, back to when I did put on size, and trying to revamp from there, because I think over the years I've been confused with all of the ridiculously conflicting information. I'm doing two excercises and 6 total sets per body part, all to failure, in the medium rep ranges. Been on this for about 6 weeks and so far satisfied (I'm losing weight, so putting on strength is hard).

I've tried everything from working a muscle group every two days (when I first started, and it worked well, as a teenager), to every seven days. I'm starting to learn now that these long intervals between a muscle group are only good if you really hammer at that muscle group. I go to failure, but I don't like putting down 10 sets or getting close to screaming for mercy, so I think more frequent weights are good for me.

I read Mentzer's Heavy Duty II book and followed it closely for a little while. It's garbage. Maybe for some people it's not, but for me (and dare I say most), it is. His chest routine, for instance, consists of something like two sets. He claims you can reach your genetic potential in 1-2 years, but of course doesn't use a single example of anybody who had.

Well i just read articles on HIT (Dr. Ken Leistner) and it looks like iam going to drop max-ot for HIT seing as i enjoy benching multiple times in a week. Dr. Ken Lestner also mentioned doing a "press" instead of a bench press. i didnt see any info on body builders.com so could someone tell me how to do a press? Also how do you warm up with HIT. With Max-Ot i would just do 12 reps at 50% 8 @ 70% and 3 @ 90% (all estimates). How does it work with HIT?

how do you warm up with HIT. With Max-Ot i would just do 12 reps at 50% 8 @ 70% and 3 @ 90% (all estimates). How does it work with HIT?

You don't. That is what the first few reps of a set are. keep reading.

I think Mentzer advocated too few sets and too long a recovery period. I believe Darden has addressed a method that can be used by the vast majority of people of all ages for a lifetime.

What do you mean by too few sets?
Overall sets in the workout? or sets per muscle goup?
I'm not overly familiar with Darden (though i plan to be soon) but doesnt he say to do 1 set per exercise?
Full body 3 times per week?
:tu:

Ok i read an interview from the Darden site.
The reason i asked was, i train the Mike Mentzer way and have had extraordinary results.
Darden :
Jones initially recommended as many as 16 exercises, each performed one set to failure, three times per week. This eventually proved to be too much overall exercise. Mentzer went the other extreme: consolidated routines, some of which required only 3 or 4 exercises to failure, once every 10 to 12 days.
Mentzer mentions Jones' routine as being too excessive in his books.
Dardens reference to Mentzer advocating 10 to 12 days rest is a bit out of context.
He actually says to do a split routine 3 times per week in the beginning, and as you advance, to have extra days rest as required.
As different ppl respond differently to stress (being the workout) you need to judge for yourself how much rest you need.
He say's SOME of his clients got to the stage that they were working out 10 to 12 days, he does not say that everyone should do this, as Darden implies. ( no offense to darden )
The clients that were doing this were very advanced bodybuilders past the point of needing to pack on muscle, so it was more of a maintaining thing.
3 or 4 exercises every 10 days is very extreme.
Ive personally tried the full body routine, and there is no way i could do it 2 - 3 times per week with the goals and therefore the intensity needed to build the muscle i desire.
I gave it a twice a week 1 month trial and i was quickly overtraining, The last exercises of the workout were lower in intensity than required for optimal growth.
My strength wasn't increasing on a workout to workout basis.
If i workout on monday, most muscles are not fully recovered until friday at the earliest.
Im not saying fullbody workouts wont work, im just saying unless you recover very fast (and lots of ppl do) the muscle gains will be slower than on split routine with sufficient rest.
Having said all that i intend to buy Dardens latest book as im sure i can learn a lot from him ( i didnt know of him till rtestes supplied the link.)

And yes i am being defensive of mike mentzer! :lol:
Unfortunately hes not with us any longer to do it himself.
Even still, those who know me, know i dont let bias cloud my judgement on any topic.

What do you mean by too few sets?
Overall sets in the workout? or sets per muscle goup?
I'm not overly familiar with Darden (though i plan to be soon) but doesnt he say to do 1 set per exercise?
Full body 3 times per week?
:tu:

Too few sets per week or in a workout. Some people say he was advantaged by genes and on drugs therefore it worked well for him. Darden's works for the masses.

Too few sets per week or in a workout. Some people say he was advantaged by genes and on drugs therefore it worked well for him. Darden's works for the masses.

With all due respect to you rtestes, as i do respect your opinions,
His formula for the routine was actually revised in the early 90's well after he was competing, he states that even though he knew that less volume was better he was still sucked into the high volume, overtraining of the 70's.
He tested his ideas he states on over 2000 clients, i think thats a pretty good indication that his method works for the masses.
I agree that Dardens approach will work for the masses looking for some muscle and overall health, but for the serious bodybuilder hoping to reach his genetic potential in less than 2 years, theres not a hope.
There is evidence ( not concrete) of this in his own forums by the comments made about HIT.
This leads me to believe theres a fault in the way they are performing it , as HIT principles make logical sense that it will work.
I can't think of successful bodybuilder that didn't take drugs from the 70's onward probably before, if they were'nt they were not standing in the olympia lineup, so i cant hold this against him.
Not many of them will admit to using.
You would be naive to think they didn't.
I have no plans of being olympia standard so i have no plans of going to those extremes.
Being genetically gifted, there is no doubt is also a factor for their success, and thats why high volume workouts work for them even though they are counter productive for most.

With all due respect to you rtestes, as i do respect your opinions,
His formula for the routine was actually revised in the early 90's well after he was competing, he states that even though he knew that less volume was better he was still sucked into the high volume, overtraining of the 70's.
He tested his ideas he states on over 2000 clients, i think thats a pretty good indication that his method works for the masses.
I agree that Dardens approach will work for the masses looking for some muscle and overall health, but for the serious bodybuilder hoping to reach his genetic potential in less than 2 years, theres not a hope.
There is evidence ( not concrete) of this in his own forums by the comments made about HIT.
This leads me to believe theres a fault in the way they are performing it , as HIT principles make logical sense that it will work.
I can't think of successful bodybuilder that didn't take drugs from the 70's onward probably before, if they were'nt they were not standing in the olympia lineup, so i cant hold this against him.
Not many of them will admit to using.
You would be naive to think they didn't.
I have no plans of being olympia standard so i have no plans of going to those extremes.
Being genetically gifted, there is no doubt is also a factor for their success, and thats why high volume workouts work for them even though they are counter productive for most.

Not wanting to argue but to clarify. I have followed the game since a kid. Just like movie stars, singers, politicians, etc., there have been bodybuilders and trainers that I respected and admired as well as those I considered non-personalities. Mentzer was on the fringe of being a non-personality to me, I didn't notice him, he would only come on the scene to me when he popped up pushing his version of Arthur Jones' view of training. I noted it. At his death, he popped up again. I begin to hear more stories about him and his behavior. In passing, I had seen articles referring to his HIT training ideas, I read them and said extreme. This is from someone that tried to read everything Jones and company wrote starting in the late 60s with articles in Ironman (I finally got the chance to workout with Nautilus equipment in the early 80s for about 12 years).

Back to Mentzer, I have 100s of magazines and books going back to the late 1900s. I have never bought any of his books. My view of him comes from articles and the net. You may be correct in believing his ideas are a good contribution to the game. I will have to break down and buy a book and see if it changes my mind.

I realize fully that Drugs rule in the sport and have been there since at least the mid 60s, I consider it sad. I would guess 95% of those working out don't want to complete. I don't think 99% of them could complete nationally no matter how they trained or what they took. So what can the masses do?

I think they would do well to try and maybe stick to HIT as Darden spells it out. It should carry them just as far as any method that has graced these forums in my opinion. I push it because it is effective and efficient. It is simple and spelled out for all.

I have super/tri-setted, spent 3 hours in gyms, you name it. I don't look like Arnold or even some of the bodybuilders I would want to look like. I think working out made me look better than if I hadn't and that is what I wanted.

Edit: You know I missed your message of 24th 3:28am, so I have never responded to it.

I respect what you have said, and the fact that you have been in the game so long. :tu:
Looking at everyone who advocates HIT i notice the principles hav'nt really changed from that of Aurthur Jones who started it.
I think the main difference is the application of the principles that has been changed.
Reading from authur jones and darden its all very familiar to me after reading mentzers books.
I ordered Ellingtons new book today, and look forward to reading it as i am still new to the world of building in terms of time training.
I will continue to practice the Mentzer way while im making such good progress, but i will be open to a better approach if that is possible.
I dont think it will come in the form of a full body routine, but we'll see.

:bb:

how do you do the "press" that Dr. Ken Leistner mensioned? I couldnt find any info on it :(

how do you do the "press" that Dr. Ken Leistner mensioned? I couldnt find any info on it :(

You failed to mention article or provide a url. He might have been talking about a standing press or military press.

I believe the 'press' being referred to is the standing military press, also known simply as the 'overhead press' or occasionally I've seen it called just the 'press'. It involves arching your back a lot and so most trainers rendered it very unsafe starting in about the 60's. It used to be a very popular exercise but it's totally old school. They did a lot of them before they had good incline benches. Back then they were just a slanted plank that you stood on with your whole body in a straight line-not good for the spine.

I think Mentzer was overreacting to the high volume regimenes that only worked for pro's who were juicing heavily. I tried his techniques for awhile and only experienced atrophy. He did seem to waiver in his advice on sets, but would always come back to making statements like

"You really only need to do one hard set per muscle group per week and anything more than that is overtraining." It's just not the case for me I can say that for a fact. For the 'hardgainer', we have to strike a fine balance between overtraining and undertraining and although undertraining takes less time I'd rather have the satisfaction of doing the work while risking that I could be slightly overtraining.

If I followed Mentzer's typical advice found in articles he wrote in the 90's and did one set of heavy curls once a week, by the end of one year I believe I would be curling 10-20 percent less than when I started. Undertraining makes you feel like you're not earning your gains. 30-45 minute weight workouts 4-5 days a week works nicely for me and most people.

Your welcome to your 5 days a week routine, thats pretty much a 2 week workout for me and my training partners and myself are gaining strength every workout, and size gains are not far behind on a regular basis.
Im an easy gainer but the other two are hard gainers that have been training for years.
They have gained more muscle in the last 6 months than they had in 3 years. :tu:

Your welcome to your 5 days a week routine, thats pretty much a 2 week workout for me and my training partners and myself are gaining strength every workout, and size gains are not far behind on a regular basis.
Im an easy gainer but the other two are hard gainers that have been training for years.
They have gained more muscle in the last 6 months than they had in 3 years. :tu:
Glenn,

When I say 5 days in a week I'm still working each muscle group only once a week so it's not like it's a high volume approach. In fact it's quite low on the volume scale. It might look like this:

Day 1: Legs and Calves
Day 2: Back and Rear Delts
Day 3: Chest and Triceps
Day 4: Calves, Abs, Biceps, and Forearms
Day 5: Shoulders and Traps

Some weeks I won't do workout #4 on a separate day and I'll get biceps/forearms along with my leg workout.

I don't see how the above program could be called overtraining.
If you can spread that out over two weeks then you've got a 13 day rest between workouts compared to my six days rest, which I consider to be a lot of rest.

Can you give me an example of how to workout 4 to 5 days out of every 14? I'm curious what the program would look like.

so whats the story with a incline and decline bench. i think ill stick with a flat bench but I would like to add something for my lower pecks and shoulders into my workout. i guess a military press is for your shoulders but i dont like the way it feels. i havnt tried incline or decline to date.

your routine is not that different to mine as far as muscle groups go,
Overtraining varies from one person to the next.
If your increasing in strength each week then its unlikely your overtraining.
I never workout 2 days consecutively, usually at least 1 day rest but sometimes 2 or 3 days if i feel i need it.
So therefore my chest day for example wont always be on a monday.
If your intensity levels are low in your workout then it is usually no problem to go back 24hrs later to do another muscle group.
If your workouts are intense, then you need to take into account that an intense workout has a generalized effect on the entire physical system, not just on the muscles worked, so going back before your fully recovered, you are interfering with the recovery and growth of the previous muscle group.

so whats the story with a incline and decline bench. i think ill stick with a flat bench but I would like to add something for my lower pecks and shoulders into my workout. i guess a military press is for your shoulders but i dont like the way it feels. i havnt tried incline or decline to date.

Incline targets your upper pecs, decline targets the lower pecs.
Flat bench targets more the middle, but all exercises hit the pecs to an extent as a whole.
I have good lower pecs so i rarely do flat or decline anymore.

If iam doing HIT full body workout could i replace my flat benching with a decline?

Incline targets your upper pecs, decline targets the lower pecs.
Flat bench targets more the middle, but all exercises hit the pecs to an extent as a whole.

I buy that explanation but "science" says it doesn't make a difference, They don't target areas just the pecs. I prefer an incline but I think a flat bench builds more mass, A decline ain't my style.

I buy that explanation but "science" says it doesn't make a difference, They don't target areas just the pecs. I prefer an incline but I think a flat bench builds more mass, A decline ain't my style.

yes thats why i added the line
(but all exercises hit the pecs to an extent as a whole)
I think your right about the flat building more mass, though since only doing incline my upper pecs are coming up nicely.
Im not a big fan of declines either, prefer parallel bar dips.
I must say though the majority of my pecs were built on the pec deck and have been 'tidied' up with bench and dips.(as in filled out areas the pec deck wasnt getting.)

I dont go to a gym seing as i have one of those nautilus smiths from costco. so i dont have a pec deck. will chest flys work as well as the peck deck. i guess my HIT FB workout would be something like this

Squats (only done them twice so am working the wieght up slowly) 20x210lb as of 2 days ago :)

Flat bench 10x150lb~ (good days and bad days)

Bicep Curls 10x85lb

Tricep pull down thingy. 10x60~ (still undefined)

Low rows or wide grip pullups. (need someone to help me "cheat" on the pullups)

Looking for another chest exercise. + i do abs ocasionaly.

I dont go to a gym seing as i have one of those nautilus smiths from costco. so i dont have a pec deck. will chest flys work as well as the peck deck. i guess my HIT FB workout would be something like this

Squats (only done them twice so am working the wieght up slowly) 20x210lb as of 2 days ago :)

Flat bench 10x150lb~ (good days and bad days)

Bicep Curls 10x85lb

Tricep pull down thingy. 10x60~ (still undefined)

Low rows or wide grip pullups. (need someone to help me "cheat" on the pullups)

Looking for another chest exercise. + i do abs ocasionaly.

Chest flyes with DB arn't as productive as the pec deck but they are the next best thing. Do them just before you do your bench press, waiting only long enough to get your breath back between sets.
The reason pec deck is more productive is that it gives full resistance in the fully contracted position as in when your arms come together.
DB however never reach the fully contracted position as the weight is held up by your bones when your in the same arms together position, so you are better to stop short as the resistance drops off.
Cable flyes are good too, but you may not have access to them.
Also do your pullups with a close grip palms facing position and you wont need the help as your forearms fail too fast in the palms away position, so your result will be better.

the machine i have has cables so i guess ill do my flys using that. i can have access to a peckdeck (school) but i dont do my workout there. i guess ill just do my workout there everyother time. So is there anything else you guys think i should add to my routene? O and iam doing a kiw carb diet at the same time. i hope i can still gain some bulk.