CUTTING... need my sanity back... 45+ min. Cardio duration & other questions still linger... been searching for days...

My wife & I are doing some fine tuning and I know it's important to be confident in your program in order to succeed.

Originally, several hours after breakfast and after a 30+ minute weight work-out, I was doing Cardio on an Elliptical (4 days on, 1 off = 8/10 days) for 60-70 minutes each session & burning around 1,000-1,200 calories.

This started partly becuase I wasn't 100 % confident in the Elliptical's (Precor, Model 5.23) Calorie expenditure readings and wanted to guarantee myself a decent loss.

I've since read that Cardio longer than 45 minutes (even at 70-75% of Max. H.R.) is BAD, possibly because of Cortisol & muscle breakdown issues. But aren't there also Cortisol issues with the ever-popular "fasted cardio"? I've mixed in the "fasted" cardio a few times but I definitely don't plan on ever exceeding the 45 minute limit on those days for sure, nor do I plan on lifting weights while fasted.

Since it's obvious that it's best to keep the Lean Mass that you have whenever possible (better metabolism), I don't want to do anything that will take me backwards.

Here's the big question...

Can I pass that 45 minute mark (perhaps back up to 60, 70 or occasionally even 80 or 90 minutes) of Cardio at 70-75% to keep burning those extra 1,000+ calories per day or is it going to have negative effects? Of course, I realize the body tells you what's best & so far it's always felt pretty good for me even with the extra 20-30 minutes...

I've already put the "Karvonen" Maximum Heart Rate method into effect & upped the intensity to a more realistic or true 75% work-out zone. It now certainly feels more like a work-out (thanks for THAT tip Forum !) but I'm still staying at around 800 calories after 45 minutes.


H.I.I.T. may also get thrown into the mix later once we're lighter & it doesn't hurt my knees as much.

I should also mention that we're going at this from other angles as well. We have adjusted our diets with an average of a mixture of several BMR Calculations (ranging from 1,616-1,800 for my wife & 2,267-2,626 for me - while "Sedentary") and hopefully determined our initial caloric needs (which I think was a BIG PART of the puzzle) - we're now aiming for the 40-40-20 (protein-carbs-fat) & also paying attention to appropriate timing of each. It's a little tricky though as we have strange, somewhat strict diets to begin with - we'll just say that we eat alot of "soy" based proteins...

I guess I'm just hoping to help speed things up for us because for all the work we've done, the first month seemed kind of slow - even though we keep telling ourselves that we have probably regained some muscle which has most likely offset the fat losses. We certainly feel way better physically & mentally anyways.

Any advice or comments from you "Gurus" out there would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

D&G

I'm certainly not a guru but I'll make a comment.

I think you are placing way too much emphasis on how much effect cardio will have on your weight loss. With your Cardio, there is no need to do really long cardio sessions where you burn up to 1000 cals. As long as you are maintaining a deficit with regard to your diet (eg the number of cals you need to maintain your weight minus 500-1000), theoretically you could do without cardio. Of course, cardio is good because of the numerous health benefits and to increase your metabolism, but as I said, the main factor determining your weight loss is your diet.

You sound like you're putting a lot of thought of planning into you and your wife's transformations, so with persistance and continual refection and questioning, I have no doubt you will achieve your goals. :tucool:

In your research you've probably read some conflicting information regarding the questions you have. This is natural, as many people have different opinions about what is optimal. I doubt, however, that you've seen many conflicting opinions on the practice of doing cardio after weight lifting. Chances are the information you've read there was all against the practice. I recommend you discontinue that practice, and listen to Marcus RE: the importance of cardio. If you're looking to go full speed ahead (careful what you ask for), better to have a 45-minute cardio session every day than a 70-80 minute one 4x/week.

Can I pass that 45 minute mark (perhaps back up to 60, 70 or occasionally even 80 or 90 minutes) of Cardio at 70-75% to keep burning those extra 1,000+ calories per day or is it going to have negative effects? Of course, I realize the body tells you what's best & so far it's always felt pretty good for me even with the extra 20-30 minutes...


Personally I think it comes down to time and calories. Now I don't know how many times you puke after cardio, but 1200kcal in 60-70 mins is about double what I get running at 6-7 MPH, so I'm not sure that is really realistic.

Well who cares? The reason I bring this up is I think you should keep cardio under 60 mins OR 600 kcal. 45 mins and 400-500 kcal is a nice 'safe' number. If you are really burning up 1000-1200kcal/hour, that is like an HIIT workout, which really you should only do 20-30 mins.

However, I doubt you are really using up that much energy unless you can run 8-10 miles in 60-70 mins.

Do longer cardio for sport specific or conditioning reasons - not fat loss, and eat more to compensate.

I understand you want to push every last oz out of your fat loss, however, the harder you push, the more chance of loosing LBM and getting injured. If you are really stalling out, then look at diet over long cardio sessions.

It's a little tricky though as we have strange, somewhat strict diets to begin with - we'll just say that we eat alot of "soy" based proteins...


OK, I'm not going to say anything about soy, BUT, you need to make sure you eat enough variety. If you are vegitarian/vegan then get some specific advice about that, but I highly recommend that you do not live off 3-5 foods.

In fact without really any knowledge about vegan diets, if you are vegan then maybe 40/40/20 split is not optimal? If you can eat animal proteins, still eat variety!

I might be way off the mark here, but anyway, an alarm bell went off.

Thanks very much for the responses thus far... :tu:

Just wanted to update & correspond with some of the advice thus far.

Marcus - After, taking a step back and looking at the big picture, I agree that the diet can help tremendously & I don't have to always try to do 1,000 + calories almost every day of the week as I have been. In fact, it's been about a week since we started taking the BMR stuff more seriously & it seems to be helping to get things going better.

Gillisc - You certainly are right about getting caught up in all the various contradicting ideas out there. I'll try to keep the cardio & weight work-outs separate when possible or at least throw some post weight work-out nutrition in there before blasting into Cardio. We've already made sure we never do "legs" & ride the Elliptical after. A few Cardio sessions have passed since I've raised the intensity (to a more true & demanding 75%) due to the other "Karvonen" Heart Rate calculations and I don't think I'll want to pass that 45 min. mark much anymore. I used to feel it was necessary to go for 60+ min. back with my old, easier 75% (132-141 beats per minute). Funny how an extra 10 or so beats / min. can make things so much different. I'm still making sure that I'm able to breath good so I don't "huff 'n' puff" and go anaerobic though...

NEdge - I didn't believe those readings initially either & that was what made me go harder & longer to try & guarantee some losses. I followed up with some research on this and it seems that since my weight is close to 240 I tend to burn the calories a little quicker than average (ie. my wife also does a similar work-out but ends up with around 550). As an outline, I'm usually going 140-160 strides per minute with a decent amount of resistance (9 or 10) & burning around 15-16 calories per minute which does seem reasonable for the effort that I feel. This now translates into around 800 calories in 45 min. (including the 5 min. cool down). I guess, when I get leaner it will lower - at least until I crank up the intensity again... but then again I think calories won't matter so much as I'll shift the focus a little more back towards the wieghts and other types of cardio.

As for the nutrition part, yes I've had some concern about all the SOY based proteins in our diet as well & I'm aware that there are reportedly some studies out there that may show that although there may be many benefits from soy, there may also be some possible downsides, particularly when it comes to males consuming such high volumes of the stuff. We've really upped our efforts in trying to vary our protein sources from other areas (various bean varieties, nuts, etc.) and will continue to do so.


Anyone have any further thoughts - all assistance is greatly appreciated...

Thanks again,

D&G