Which of the three food groups above should be eaten together and which should be seperated, and when.

For example if I have some wheat pasta and tuna for lunch on a lifting day should I combine them or seperate them. Would this be different on mainly cardio day? If they do need to be seperated at some times, how long should you wait between consuming them together?

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that delineates food timing based on type of activity and the type of food group?

You can mix anything you want. Some people prefer to separate carbs and fats, but I have yet to see any proof as to why it should be done. Only proof as to why it's fine.

I wouldn't worry so much about such minute details, it will only drive you crazy for nothing.

I like to shoot for 30g protein and 40g carb meals every three hours or so. I usually have fats in between some of them like PB or nuts or oil.

1. Always eat fats or carbs with protein (never fat only, carb only or fat+carb only meals).
2. Concentrate carbs around strength workouts (befroe and after)
3. Veggies don't really count as a carb source (so protein + veg meals need something else - another carb or some fat)

1. Always eat fats or carbs with protein (never fat only, carb only or fat+carb only meals).
2. Concentrate carbs around strength workouts (befroe and after)
3. Veggies don't really count as a carb source (so protein + veg meals need something else - another carb or some fat)

Nedge -

Thank you! That is part of what I was looking for.

If you can direct me to something that explains WHY those things are true that would be great...I find that if I really understand why I do the things that I do regarding my fitness I make much larger gains. I have worked out for a long time and eat healthy, but I am beginning to really pay more attention to the nuances between nutrition and fitness so that I understand the relationship better in terms of especially when the body needs what kind of nutrients. THANKS!

For the most part, I eat all three macros each meal, though they can be in different proportions. But immediately after lifting I eat a protein-carb meal in the form of a whey and dextrose shake. And before bed I like to eat a protein-fat meal. Any combinations and splits, however, are much less important than getting the right amount and right kinds of protein, fat, and carbs by the end of the day.

Which of the three food groups above should be eaten together and which should be seperated, and when.

For example if I have some wheat pasta and tuna for lunch on a lifting day should I combine them or seperate them. Would this be different on mainly cardio day? If they do need to be seperated at some times, how long should you wait between consuming them together?

Does anyone know of a chart of some sort that delineates food timing based on type of activity and the type of food group?

1. Always eat fats or carbs with protein (never fat only, carb only or fat+carb only meals).

Is this necessary? No. It is thought by some that it helps when cutting, but I have yet to see any evidence of this being true. Ryan, if you would like to know why it's recommended by some, it's because supposedly when you combine fats and carbs, you are more likely to store (I think it's) carbs as fat while your body digests the fat. Like I said though, I have seen plently of people, myself included, cut just fine mixing the two.


2. Concentrate carbs around strength workouts (befroe and after)

This I definitely agree with. While I don't watch my carbs, I certainly make sure that I consume complex carbs about 1-2 hours before lifting and then immediately after. While I don't follow the "rules" on simple/complex carbs, they are as follows:

Pre-lifting meal: Complex carbs/protein so that your body has fuel for your muscles during the workout
Immediately post-lifting: Simple carbs/Protein so that your body can restore glycogen to your muscles and protein, while not nearly as necessary, is believed to help in recovery
60-90 mins after that: Complex carbs/protein to help supply slow digesting carbs to your body and muscles and protein for recovery and growth


3. Veggies don't really count as a carb source (so protein + veg meals need something else - another carb or some fat)

They don't count as carbs, but I don't think it's ALWAYS necessary to make sure you have a carb or fat source. I often eat grilled chicken with brocolli or something of that nature and have never had a problem with it.

Sounds like a thread for Swolecat's reply- but come to think of it, I haven't seen a post from the big guy in a couple of weeks. :confused:

3. Veggies don't really count as a carb source

A cup of yams has over 37 grams of carbs.

A cup of yams has over 37 grams of carbs.

I think he meant green vegetables.

1. Always eat fats or carbs with protein (never fat only, carb only or fat+carb only meals).

Is this necessary? No. It is thought by some that it helps when cutting, but I have yet to see any evidence of this being true. Ryan, if you would like to know why it's recommended by some, it's because supposedly when you combine fats and carbs, you are more likely to store (I think it's) carbs as fat while your body digests the fat. Like I said though, I have seen plently of people, myself included, cut just fine mixing the two.

Good to see you back KT! you're one of the few people that take newcomers and seasoned vets sanity into consideration with your replies! ;)

i also see no beef with a fat/carb meal, so long as it fits your overall needs by the end of the day. i have a sporuted wheat bun slathered in natty PB several times a week, and i'm doing just fine...as long as its good carbs and good fats, you should be fine. (cheesecake as a fat/carb meal, on the other hand, is decidely bad :p )

everyone's response regarding carbs pre and post workout is spot on, after a weight session, protien and especially carbs are two nutrients in very short supply after a workout. most would recomend a PWO shake consisting of 2:1 dextrose : protien...i lean toward the more 1.5:1 myself, but that depends on the individual.

Lately i've found myself unconsciously cutting carbs on non-lifting days, and favoring more protien/fat meals such as steak and eggs or nuts and protien powder...not sure if this is/will lead to any better results yet, it was just what i had around last week, and now eating carbs on cardio days seems to be limited to 90 minutes after running...we'll see what kind of results it yields in a month or so...

1. Always eat fats or carbs with protein (never fat only, carb only or fat+carb only meals).

Is this necessary? No. It is thought by some that it helps when cutting, but I have yet to see any evidence of this being true. Ryan, if you would like to know why it's recommended by some, it's because supposedly when you combine fats and carbs, you are more likely to store (I think it's) carbs as fat while your body digests the fat. Like I said though, I have seen plently of people, myself included, cut just fine mixing the two.


The rationale is that it is not a very metabolism boosting combination. If you are in enough of a deficit and the total calories are not great, then sure, how would you store much/any as fat? But eating protein at every meal is highly thermogenetic and helps keep the metabolism going. Is 1 meal going to hurt, maybe, maybe not. If you're having a huge cheat once a week, I wouldn't worry about 1-2 carb+fat meals. Some people may find it makes no difference depending on their goals, what else they eat and when etc.. BUT if you consistently do not eat protein with your meals, then you might as well eat less meals, since you body doen not have to use as much energy for digestion. Can you still get ripped - almost certainly.

Lets get some perspective here. 'Rules' are meant to be broken. I could loose fat on a carb-only 1 meal/day diet - but it just makes things that much more difficult. The 'rules' are just a starting point. For instance I notice a difference between 5 and 7 meals/day, but others may not, but we would probably agree more meals are beneficial. Why, how many? 4,5,6 or 7? now we are getting into analysis paralysis. So how many meals/day do I 'need' to get to X%BF? are meaningless questions.

Now I feel foolish for even getting drawn into the thread, since every experienced person here knows that anything anyone comes up with can be dismissed as unnecessary. Question is how helpful are we being?

In any case there is a multitude of scientific papers and writings on these subjects all of which require interpretation and a dose of reality, so at the end of the day what I would look for are ideas. Consider them, decide what seems to make sence to you, try them, if they work for you, great, if not don't assume they are unimoprtant for everyone.

I'd also like to say that I actually don't always practice exactly what I preach, especially with questions like this since I have made my own treaks and modifications to suit me. However, I still believe they are good starting points.

i also see no beef with a fat/carb meal, so long as it fits your overall needs by the end of the day..

If you are suggesting 'a calorie is a calorie, it doesn't matter when you eat them as long as you eat a certain macro ratio at the end of the day' I couldn't agree less. But that's one of few the things I have proved (beyond all reasonable doubt) to myself, and I enjoy cutting on many more calories/lb than many people seem to be able.

Finding no problem with a carb-fat meal does not necessarily assume a calorie is a calorie. I would never consider a starchy, sugary trans-fat filled muffin healthy or good for the body or metabolism. But I don't think an apple with almonds is bad for your metabolism. An apple is a low-glycemic, high fiber, slow digesting carb in the first place. Added fat only slows down digestion of this meal. All of the macros in this meal are being slowly metabolized. There's no real evidence that the body works on metabolizing fat and ignores the carb, allowing it to get stored. Having said that, Nedge has posted some good guidelines that can help with healthy eating and keeping calories in check. But it's not the only way to go. Original poster (sorry, I didn't look back to the top of the thread to get your name), you should experiment. Try and see what works for you as a practical matter.

If you are suggesting 'a calorie is a calorie, it doesn't matter when you eat them as long as you eat a certain macro ratio at the end of the day' I couldn't agree less. But that's one of few the things I have proved (beyond all reasonable doubt) to myself, and I enjoy cutting on many more calories/lb than many people seem to be able.

SwoleCat has stopped his posting frequency here due to the lack of knowledge most here have. He has tried to post his theories (which are certainly proven by both himself and his clients ) but people always try to discredit what he says, thus he has reduced his posting frequency.

I don't know if separating carbs/fat is necessary, but it certainly does make my diet easy and targets my macro amounts where I need them. It allows me to focus all of my carbs PWO and all during the day I eat eggs/bacon, steak, almonds, chicken, salads, etc. For me, splitting fat and carbs into separate meals works wonders and is extremely convenient for my schedule, but I have no clue as to whether there is a direct fat burning advantage. This isn't really relevant to me, as I do the separation as a convenience mainly...

im with supirman. what is a carb/fat meal? pb/j is the only thing that comes to mind. maybe donuts.

when i eat, i want something to eat, like some meat. its a convenience factor for me. im big fan of steak and eggs/chicken and salad/steak and steak/etc

catch my drift? i know supirman does

some interesting info from T-mag:

Two related problems have always plagued bodybuilders: 1) how to get big without getting fat and 2) how to get lean without losing a lot of muscle. John solves both problems with a diet plan called "Massive Eating" that's proving to be remarkably effective.

The secret behind this diet plan revolves around how you combine macronutrients (proteins, fats, and carbs) in each meal. No, this isn't one of those goofy food-combining fads that were popular several years ago; you know, don't mix soft fruits with beans or your head will explode. These are recommendations based on hard science and real world results.

Here are the Cliff's Notes to the diet:

• Eat protein in every meal and eat about six meals a day.

• Don't eat meals high in carbs alone.

• Don't eat fat and carbs together in substantial amounts.

• In some meals, eat protein with carbs, but very little fat (less than 5 grams).

• In other meals, eat protein with fat, but very little carbs (less than 10 grams).

What's the purpose of all this? Basically, you're manipulating your natural hormonal levels, including insulin. Insulin is a two-faced beast. It's needed at the right times to shuttle nutrients into muscle cells, but chronic insulin elevation will cause the muscles to become insulin resistant and refuse to take up nutrients. Then adipose tissue takes over and you end up with the belly of a woman nine months pregnant with Shaq's twins. Not pretty.

By separating carbs and fats in meals, you're not allowing simultaneous high blood levels of carbs, fat and insulin. And although there are certainly other systems of the body that contribute to gaining body fat, it's this area that most people in today's fast food world need to work on.

So the P + F (protein plus fat) meals keep insulin under control and allow you to get in some healthy fats. The P + C (protein plus carb) meals allow the body to become very anabolic, taking up all those carbs and amino acids into the muscle cells for protein and glycogen synthesis. And since there's no excess fat in these meals for the fat cells, fat gain is minimized even if you're eating a boatload of calories. Basically this diet allows you to eat a large amount of healthy carbohydrates and fats in the same day without worrying about whether they'll destroy your hard-earned physique.

SwoleCat has stopped his posting frequency here due to the lack of knowledge most here have. He has tried to post his theories (which are certainly proven by both himself and his clients ) but people always try to discredit what he says, thus he has reduced his posting frequency.

I don't know if separating carbs/fat is necessary, but it certainly does make my diet easy and targets my macro amounts where I need them. It allows me to focus all of my carbs PWO and all during the day I eat eggs/bacon, steak, almonds, chicken, salads, etc. For me, splitting fat and carbs into separate meals works wonders and is extremely convenient for my schedule, but I have no clue as to whether there is a direct fat burning advantage. This isn't really relevant to me, as I do the separation as a convenience mainly...

Man! That is a real bummer with Swole Cat. I always appreciated his input and expertise...it is really to bad that he felt that way.

As I mentioned b4, Physical activity/excersize/lifting has been part of my life since high school...I just have never given much thought the the nutrition factor of fitness other than just eating healthy in general (meaning I watch my trans fats, portion control, try to eat natural, and make sure that I dont go overboard with any one macro)

I am looking forward to trying different things and seeing what works best. Unfortunately, my daily schedule is absolutely crazy so it is difficult to maintain a meal plan...I think what I want to really understand is what to eat in what percentages on certain work out days. I appreciate all of your input.

Just as an example though for breakfast this morning after cardio and abs I had:

1 whole wheat bagel (200 cal, 44g carbs)

3 eggs (only 2 yolks) scrambled (200 cal, 15 g fat, 17 g protein)

is that a smart post cardio workout meal?

From what I have gathered in general I may be emphasizing the wrong nutrients on the wrong days. For example on lifting days I up the Protein and maintain or slightly cut the carbs and then on cardio days I pump up the carbs and maintain or slightly reduce the protein. I guess I always knew that after lifting you have to restore sugars to your muscles and that you need sugar in the system to carry protein for recovery, however I think I have overdone the protein on the lifting days without adequate carbs to assist in protein delivery.

Thank you for all your input and I certainly will be seeing how what you all have said applies or does not apply to my situation...there are a lot of great suggestion to try!

im with supirman. what is a carb/fat meal?

Carb fat meal could be steak with whole wheat pasta or potatoes, apple with PB, toast with eggs,etc.

I am not going to say that the seperating or combining is a better. What it all comes down to is what works for you. If you have success seperating, good for you. If you have success combining, that's great. I personally have had great results combining. I tried the seperating thing a long time ago and frankly, I like to keep it simple. If Supirman seperates because it's convenient, that's totally cool. For me, it is convenient to plan my meals without worrying that 6g of fat mixed with 44 carbs is going to slow down my progress.

In regards to
SwoleCat has stopped his posting frequency here due to the lack of knowledge most here have. He has tried to post his theories (which are certainly proven by both himself and his clients ) but people always try to discredit what he says, thus he has reduced his posting frequency.

I think if everybody had extensive nutrition/fitness knowledge here, the board would be pointless. I don't know Swolecat, but he seems cool, I don't agree that people are always trying to discredit him, so much as when people have an opinion other than his, he tends to tell them that they are wrong. I know he advocates seperating fats/carbs and empty stomach cardio, but I do both at times and am just about at 10% BF, doesn't seem wrong to me. Bottom line, everybody is different, what works for some doesn't always work for others.

Jason

I think if everybody had extensive nutrition/fitness knowledge here, the board would be pointless. I don't know Swolecat, but he seems cool, I don't agree that people are always trying to discredit him, so much as when people have an opinion other than his, he tends to tell them that they are wrong.

Precisely and I'll leave it at that.


I think this thread is a perfect example of why there is no "right" answer to most things in fitness/nutrition. Such a variety of approaches work for different people regardless of what one or two "experts" say. While I will agree there are unanimous theories on some issues, this is certainly not one of them. I hate to point to him every time a question like this comes up, but Jeremy Likness did a cut where he combined carbs and fats regularly and in a very short period shed tons of body fat and went below 10%. That is of course just one example, but to say that everyone must separate them to optimize fat loss would be a pretty inaccruate statement. You need to try it out and see what works for you, and for the most part, I've seen few people (none actually myself) who have HAD to separate carbs/fats to see great results.

I do agree protein should be in MOST of your meals, but if in one or two of them it's not as prevalent, it's not the end of the world.

I think this thread is a perfect example of why there is no "right" answer to most things in fitness/nutrition. Such a variety of approaches work for different people regardless of what one or two "experts" say. While I will agree there are unanimous theories on some issues, this is certainly not one of them. I hate to point to him every time a question like this comes up, but Jeremy Likness did a cut where he combined carbs and fats regularly and in a very short period shed tons of body fat and went below 10%. That is of course just one example, but to say that everyone must separate them to optimize fat loss would be a pretty inaccruate statement. You need to try it out and see what works for you, and for the most part, I've seen few people (none actually myself) who have HAD to separate carbs/fats to see great results.

I do agree protein should be in MOST of your meals, but if in one or two of them it's not as prevalent, it's not the end of the world.

Good post. It's hard to figure out the 'truth' regarding some of the theories. And even if one (such as carb/fat separation) offers a slight physiological advantage, I think it boils down to what each person can do on a daily basis so long as they are making the progress they want.

It's hard to figure out the 'truth' regarding some of the theories.
Maybe that's part of the problem. Instead of trying to find the truth on a message board, try figuring it out through experience.

Side note to jsbrook, the rest of this has nothing to do with your post...

------------------------------------------

While cutting at the end of last year, I read some posts saying it was a good idea to seperate fats and carbs. I tried it and it kicked up my progress some. Then I started telling people, "hey, seperating fats and carbs worked pretty well for me." But when people read this, they think they need to NOT EVER HAVE ANY FATS EVER WITHIN HOURS OF ANY CARBS. Then people are stuck because they have no idea what's right, fats/carbs or not fats/carbs. Then people tell me I'm living in a world of nutrition mythology. Then people criticise me for not being open to eating fats and carbs. Like I'm some kind of evil person for recommending something that worked for me.

It's frustrating, I feel like you can't give advice on here anymore without qualifying it with, "well here's what worked for me, it may not work for you and if you don't do this, it won't kill you, it's just a good idea that others may not agree with." It's absolutely ridiculous. Someone recommends something and suddenly people are freaking out because they haven't been doing it and don't know how to do it, and it's ruining their gains by not doing it. It's total knee-jerk reaction.

Maybe that's part of the problem. Instead of trying to find the truth on a message board, try figuring it out through experience.

Side note to jsbrook, the rest of this has nothing to do with your post...

------------------------------------------

While cutting at the end of last year, I read some posts saying it was a good idea to seperate fats and carbs. I tried it and it kicked up my progress some. Then I started telling people, "hey, seperating fats and carbs worked pretty well for me." But when people read this, they think they need to NOT EVER HAVE ANY FATS EVER WITHIN HOURS OF ANY CARBS. Then people are stuck because they have no idea what's right, fats/carbs or not fats/carbs. Then people tell me I'm living in a world of nutrition mythology. Then people criticise me for not being open to eating fats and carbs. Like I'm some kind of evil person for recommending something that worked for me.

It's frustrating, I feel like you can't give advice on here anymore without qualifying it with, "well here's what worked for me, it may not work for you and if you don't do this, it won't kill you, it's just a good idea that others may not agree with." It's absolutely ridiculous. Someone recommends something and suddenly people are freaking out because they haven't been doing it and don't know how to do it, and it's ruining their gains by not doing it. It's total knee-jerk reaction.


And thus the reason threads here have become very heated lately as they do on all Fitness forums. Everyone wants to recommend what they think is right, but then someone else will have a differing opinion. In the beginning when this forum was much smaller and filled with relatively all people new to fitness, it was a lot easier to "get along". Once people begin gaining experience and more experienced people begin joining, you will be hardpressed to find ANY topic in which everyone agrees. To be honest, I don't know of any solution to the problem. I've been on another fitness board long before this one and it's no different and from what I hear, bb.com and those sites aren't any different.

[QUOTE=slush_puppy]Maybe that's part of the problem. Instead of trying to find the truth on a message board, try figuring it out through experience.
QUOTE]

I completely agree. That's why I wrote "I think it boils down to what each person can do on a daily basis so long as they are making the progress they want." For me, I am making good progress without the separation. I'm certainly not blindly combing through this forum without actually utilizing the various workout and nutrition information. I think part of the problem is that there is no hard and fast truth. Different people have different results using dfiferent methods. Case in point, Jeremy Likeness and SwoleCat have both had great results and have different opinions on the carbs/fats issues and I'm sure others. My advice, as I've probably written, is for everyone to consider the different opinions on this board and ultimately do what works for them in the gym and dietwise. JeremyLikeness and SwoleCat are both clearly very knowledgeable, and they're posting what has worked for them and their clients and what they believe. I think it's a shame SwoleCat hasn't been posting here as much. From what I've seen of his old posts, he has made some really helpful suggestions. His advice would be beneficial for this board. I also agree that there are too many qualifiers. Everybody posts what they think is the best advice. It's up for each individual to take what they will from that based on their own experience, how credible the source seems, and if the information makes sense to them.

Thank you for all of your opinions...it has helped me formulate the direction I am going to go from now on. I have already switched my eating habits based on some of the suggestions and have experienced a couple things:

- feeling full for a longer period of time, thus eating less

- INcreasing carbs on lifting days...over the last week I have not been as sore

- Feeling more energized after meals than tired like I was before

One thing that I also am going to be working on is "portion control". Basically to me this means, not feeling obligated to eat everything on my plate because it is there. Instead I am going to eat a bit slower when I can and let my stomach tell me when to stop instead of using an empty plate as an indicator that the meal is over. I love leftovers too, so leaving food at the end of a meal means less meal prep later!

hi
i've read that veggies aren't counted as a carb source
what about fruit?
i usually have cottage cheese with berries or an apple for my last meal, with or without PB. what do you think of this?

Lindsay

hi
i've read that veggies aren't counted as a carb source
what about fruit?
i usually have cottage cheese with berries or an apple for my last meal, with or without PB. what do you think of this?

Lindsay

Yes, fruit should be counted. Some people even count veggies. I don't really worry about them too much because they are so low calorie. But an medium apple, I believe, has about 20g of carbs and about 80 calories. So you should include it and other fruit in your macro and/or calorie calculations. I also like this combination of food. I put splenda and sometimes a few crushed macadamia nuts in it along with the fruit.